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Groups > comp.lang.c > #107667
| From | David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> |
|---|---|
| Newsgroups | comp.lang.c |
| Subject | Re: Even more problems with lcc-win |
| Date | 2017-04-03 14:32 +0200 |
| Organization | A noiseless patient Spider |
| Message-ID | <obtf76$c86$1@dont-email.me> (permalink) |
| References | (18 earlier) <2R7DA.679006$vF2.481444@fx46.am4> <obj474$iml$1@dont-email.me> <pKLDA.487479$fZ.6744@fx41.am4> <obt39n$3jh$1@dont-email.me> <EYpEA.378079$8b6.367433@fx19.am4> |
On 03/04/17 13:02, bartc wrote: > On 03/04/2017 10:08, David Brown wrote: >> On 01/04/17 12:59, bartc wrote: > >>> * Optimisations for processing duplicate C headers >> >> Yes - it is a fine idea. It saves compiler effort, with no effort on >> the part of the programmer. Most compilers (including gcc) implement a >> "#pragma once" feature to make header inclusion faster - gcc (and >> probably other compilers) optimise standard C include guards so that you >> can get the same efficiency with standard C. > > But how did it happen? I don't understand. Presumably someone (not you!) > must have noticed that things were taking a bit longer than they would > have liked? And decided to do something about it? Your presumption may or may not be correct. It could just as easily have been someone who thought it might be nice if duplicate inclusions were handled faster - you have absolutely /no/ basis for assuming that someone thought the pre-processor was too slow. This is not a black-or-white issue - it is quite possible for someone to think it would be nice to be faster without anyone thinking the current state is too slow. And this feature was added a /long/ time ago (I haven't researched exactly when it appeared) - in a time when computers were a lot slower, and compilation took longer. The tasks of pre-processing C and tokenising it have not changed significantly since the days of K&R - it used to be a large part of the compilation time, while now it is rarely relevant (for C). It is the analysis, optimisation, and code generation stages that have changed massively over the years, and are now far more demanding of processor power. But at the time when this feature was added, pre-processing time was important. > > While they were scorned by people with fast computers and small programs > who thought it was all a waste of time? After all what's a few extra > seconds! > > >> I scorn your obsession about speed of compilation as though it is the >> only factor of relevance to anybody or anything. And I scorn your >> obsession about the size and number of header files, compiler source >> files, and other files that few people ever look at. And I scorn your >> continuous insults on other people, their work, and their tools, as >> "unmaintainable bloat" > > But always having a go at Microsoft and Windows is fine? You can scorn that my attitude there if you like. /Much/ of what I write about Windows and its use as a software development platform compared to Linux is based on verifiable fact or direct personal experience. Most of the rest is based on my personal opinion as a user of both platforms, often for the same tasks on very similar hardware. And some of it will be outdated information (I have Win7), lack of knowledge, and exaggeration due to personal likes and dislikes. There is a difference between "having a go at" and "being obsessive about". I think you will find it is rare that /I/ bring Linux and/or Windows into a discussion, except perhaps when noting the platform I am using for testing - while it is standard practice for you to bring up gcc, clang and sometimes MSVC as being bloated, inefficient, slow, hard to install, hard to use, incomprehensible, unmaintainable, or somehow tied to a conspiracy against you. As an example, you wrote this recently: > > To illustrate that, this morning it just managed to compile and run > Hello, World (not quite effortless yet as it has to work via > https://pastebin.com/fCCCGHsd). > > Current size of my project is 0.2MB. Clang, by contrast, was 50MB yet > was unable to compile the same program [it depends on other compilers > to supply essential content and functionality]. If you had simply written that your compiler has reached the point where it can compile "Hello, world!", then I would see that as an achievement - a serious step in the road towards a working compiler. But your second paragraph makes it clear that you see small size as being the important feature (in most circumstances, and for virtually all uses of a C compiler, it is not relevant). And your jab at clang is intended to show how bad other compilers are in comparison to yours - but in fact is parading your wilful ignorance, your misunderstandings about what a compiler actually is, your inability to read guidelines and information, and your total and complete unwillingness to learn anything from what people in this newsgroup tell you. It demonstrates either stupidity, or maliciousness. And I don't think you are stupid - I think you just get a kick out of trying to make other software look bad. If you think that is not a fair characterisation, then I am glad - but I have to tell you, this is the impression you give to me, at least. (It is perfectly reasonable to say that you think clang would be easier to work with on Windows if it were packaged along with a library and other tools. But you only need to say it once - and you need to say it to the folks who package clang for Windows.) > >> - simply because /you/ don't understand what they >> have done or why they have done it. > > Take the Win32 API. Let's say** it exports 20,000 defines, 5000 > functions, 3000 typedefs and 1000 structs. About 30,000 declarations > that need to be made known to any program that has '#include <windows.h>'. > > Is the best way of imparting this information really to present it as > 200,000 text lines of sprawling declarations disseminated over 100 files > in multiple directory levels? Which you have to locate, load, tokenise > and parse over and over again. That is the C way. Is it the /best/ way? No, there are more efficient ways to handle "modules" and import/export of symbols and information in a programming language. But it is the way C does it. Does it matter? No, not for C headers like this - at least not as long as there is good documentation for the APIs (and while I haven't looked much at the Windows API documentation, it seems there is plenty of it). In the C++ world, include file size and speed really does matter, because the files are a lot bigger and more complex than C headers. So the major compiler writes and the C++ committee are working on a better system, "modules". (clang made one experimental system, MS have significantly improved on it for MSVC. gcc is awaiting the results here, and have not implemented any kind of module support yet.) The world of computing has massive amounts of inefficiencies, in the name of flexibility and convenience - because computers are good at doing mindless tasks. Just look at the traffic and files used to show a little web page - there can be many times more characters in the headers, cookies, and other overhead than in the actual web page. And that page can be generated anew every access, from interpreted script code, even though the resulting page is the same. Processor time is cheap. > > The program containing #include <windows.h> doesn't care. And in fact > most such programs are only interested in a tiny fraction of the names > declared in that header. > > It sounds to me to be a grossly inefficient way of going about things. > What makes more sense, I think, is to have multiple separate headers that can be used more independently. Then you would not need to import the whole Windows API for every file the used /some/ of the API, but could use different bits in different places. I don't say that because I think it is a pain for the poor processor to have to parse so many lines again and again. I say that because I think it is a pain for the developer using an IDE, because features like auto-complete of function names will have thousands of API functions hiding the ones the programmer is actually interested in at the time. > You obviously don't care as you have a somewhat selfish attitude to > these things: if building an app is /fast enough for you/ then it > doesn't matter. But then you've presented some examples where things are > slow even for you. If building a program is fast enough for /me/, then it does not matter to /me/. I am quite happy to accept that other people find compilation speed more of an issue. However, I don't believe that the speed of C compilation is as much an issue as you seem to believe - not by a long way. And I don't believe you have a realistic view about what is relevant to the compilation speed of actual programs and real compilers. > > Maybe, those sprawling headers can be processed by a one-off program > that spits out a single file containing a linear list of all those > declarations in compact form (after all, no one ever looks at these > files, right?). If it were that simple, and if it made a significant difference to compilation speed, then compilers would do that already. A key problem is that the header system used by C is /too/ flexible. The interpretation of a header file can be different depending on previous headers, definitions, or even command-line options. All you could really do is concatenate files together - and since the files should already be in the OS's cache, that is not going to make much of a difference. If you generate pre-compiled header files for MSVC or gcc, you'll see they can be very large, partly as a result of this flexibility. > > Maybe, with such an important header as windows.h, exported entities can > be written out as a C data table which can be incorporated into the > compiler. Then, when windows.h is requested, it's instantly available. > (I'm looking at such possibilities actually.) A compiler implementation is free to do exactly that. It won't be strictly conforming to standards, since it is perfectly legal for a user to have their own "windows.h" file, but that does not mean it is not a potentially useful feature. > > Maybe, if similar approaches are used elsewhere, if could help improve > matters in situations where even you experience an annoying delay. No, it would not help me at all. That sort of thing helps if a compiler is tightly tied to a library and headers, and if there are only a few system headers that are always used. That does not apply in my work. > > (** I don't know the exact figures because big versions of windows.h are > too complicated for me to parse. They contain too many compiler-specific > features. However, for the version belonging to lccwin32 the figures > (which will include imports from required standard headers) are 9846 > macros, 2196 functions, 12 variables, 1808 typedefs, and 754 structs. > Handy when a header is simple enough to do this stuff isn't it?) > > -------------------------------------------------- > > The speed and size of the tools I'm looking at will be such that it > would be practical, every time you wanted to run the compiler, to > compile it from scratch first, before running it to compile the source > files you're interested it. > > Imagine compiling gcc from source every time you invoke 'gcc'. Would it > still take only 36msec to compile a bunch of headers? Imagine making a computer with lego-style connections so that every time you want to turn it on, you can re-build it. Tell me, what use would that be? What use is a compiler that needs to be compiled every time it is invoked? (Ignoring chicken-and-egg issues for the moment.) /Why/ would I possibly want to compile the compiler before every use? I is nice that it is /possible/ to compile the compiler, and occasionally it can be essential. But mostly I, like almost everyone else, get ready-made binaries for my compilers. > > This is in a different league. > > (This is exactly what I did a year ago with a compiler written in > interpreted code. All 25 or so modules need to be byte-code compiled > before it could run, but the process only took 30-40 msec. It adds up > however it you have to invoke it 30 times! > > I don't do that any more because, although it was quite practical, the > idea of it was crazy (I also used to compile my editor each time I used > it!). So now it writes a consolidated binary file (like an exe). > > This is the difference between you and me: I have misgivings about a > computer doing the same pointless work over and over, when it could be > done once and for all, and you don't provided it's still fast enough. > You want to compile the compiler before every use, but don't like pointless repetition? Something is wrong somewhere... My priorities are the developers' time, and the run-time of the target system (where efficiency means smaller or cheaper chips, longer battery life, etc.). The effort required by the computer in between is almost totally irrelevant - it only matters if it slows down the human developer.
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Even more problems with lcc-win jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2017-03-24 11:25 +0100
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2017-03-24 11:04 +0000
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2017-03-24 11:44 +0000
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2017-03-24 12:59 +0100
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2017-03-24 14:06 +0000
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-03-24 13:01 +0100
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2017-03-24 12:39 +0000
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2017-03-24 13:17 +0000
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2017-03-24 13:38 +0000
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2017-03-24 13:50 +0000
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2017-03-24 14:06 +0000
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2017-03-24 14:20 +0000
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-03-24 15:49 +0100
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win Gareth Owen <gwowen@gmail.com> - 2017-03-24 16:35 +0000
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2017-03-24 14:51 +0000
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win Noob <root@127.0.0.1> - 2017-03-24 23:36 +0100
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-03-24 15:43 +0100
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2017-03-24 17:57 +0000
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2017-03-24 18:13 +0000
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2017-03-24 18:32 +0000
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2017-03-24 12:11 -0700
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2017-03-24 19:56 +0000
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2017-03-24 13:48 -0700
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2017-03-24 21:17 +0000
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2017-03-24 22:40 +0100
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2017-03-24 21:56 +0000
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2017-03-25 01:14 +0100
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2017-03-25 01:19 +0000
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2017-03-25 01:30 +0000
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win supercat@casperkitty.com - 2017-03-25 12:46 -0700
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2017-03-25 20:10 +0000
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win gordonb.l3ybu@burditt.org (Gordon Burditt) - 2017-03-27 03:34 -0500
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2017-03-27 11:41 +0100
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win gordonb.15yss@burditt.org (Gordon Burditt) - 2017-03-27 14:48 -0500
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win supercat@casperkitty.com - 2017-03-27 13:31 -0700
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2017-03-27 22:22 +0100
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win supercat@casperkitty.com - 2017-03-27 15:05 -0700
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2017-03-27 23:22 +0100
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2017-03-28 00:35 +0200
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2017-04-16 19:09 -0700
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2017-04-21 21:01 +0200
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2017-04-21 12:33 -0700
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2017-04-21 21:44 +0200
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2017-04-21 13:37 -0700
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2017-04-27 13:03 -0700
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win supercat@casperkitty.com - 2017-04-21 13:15 -0700
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2017-04-21 13:35 -0700
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win supercat@casperkitty.com - 2017-04-21 15:30 -0700
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2017-04-21 18:44 -0500
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2017-04-22 21:08 +0000
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win supercat@casperkitty.com - 2017-04-23 10:26 -0700
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2017-04-23 19:08 +0100
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win supercat@casperkitty.com - 2017-04-23 14:26 -0700
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2017-04-23 16:52 -0700
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2017-04-23 16:31 -0700
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win supercat@casperkitty.com - 2017-04-23 20:42 -0700
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2017-04-23 22:32 -0700
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2017-04-24 13:37 +0000
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2017-04-27 07:13 -0700
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win supercat@casperkitty.com - 2017-04-27 07:54 -0700
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2017-04-27 18:20 -0500
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2017-04-30 14:23 -0700
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win supercat@casperkitty.com - 2017-04-30 18:18 -0700
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2017-05-01 12:12 -0500
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win supercat@casperkitty.com - 2017-05-01 11:14 -0700
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2017-05-01 13:29 -0500
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win supercat@casperkitty.com - 2017-03-27 16:00 -0700
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2017-03-28 13:24 +0100
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-03-28 15:20 +0200
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2017-03-28 16:50 +0100
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2017-03-28 09:28 -0700
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2017-03-28 19:45 +0100
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2017-03-28 12:06 -0700
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2017-03-28 20:14 +0100
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2017-03-28 20:24 +0100
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-03-28 21:33 +0200
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win supercat@casperkitty.com - 2017-03-28 13:10 -0700
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-03-28 22:15 +0200
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2017-03-29 13:23 +0000
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-03-28 21:29 +0200
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2017-03-28 20:47 +0100
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-03-28 22:46 +0200
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2017-03-28 23:46 +0100
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2017-03-29 00:53 +0200
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2017-03-29 02:00 +0100
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win mertesthomas@gmail.com - 2017-03-29 05:05 -0700
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win "James R. Kuyper" <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2017-03-29 10:57 -0400
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-03-29 17:06 +0200
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win mertesthomas@gmail.com - 2017-03-29 08:39 -0700
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win Gareth Owen <gwowen@gmail.com> - 2017-03-30 18:29 +0100
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win supercat@casperkitty.com - 2017-03-28 23:44 -0700
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2017-03-29 12:33 +0100
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win supercat@casperkitty.com - 2017-03-29 08:54 -0700
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2017-03-29 17:38 +0100
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2017-03-29 16:42 +0000
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win supercat@casperkitty.com - 2017-03-29 10:28 -0700
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2017-03-29 20:09 +0000
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win supercat@casperkitty.com - 2017-03-29 13:29 -0700
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2017-03-30 13:18 +0000
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win supercat@casperkitty.com - 2017-03-30 08:22 -0700
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2017-03-30 00:20 +0200
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win supercat@casperkitty.com - 2017-03-29 15:38 -0700
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2017-03-30 13:19 +0000
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2017-03-28 18:29 -0500
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2017-03-29 01:36 +0200
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-03-29 22:36 +0200
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2017-03-29 23:50 +0200
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2017-03-30 10:57 +1300
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2017-03-29 15:10 -0700
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2017-03-30 11:15 +1300
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2017-03-30 09:22 -0700
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win GOTHIER Nathan <nathan.gothier@gmail.com> - 2017-03-30 18:50 +0200
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2017-03-31 09:31 -0700
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-03-30 10:26 +0200
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2017-03-30 13:23 +0000
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2017-03-30 12:01 -0500
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2017-04-02 13:51 +0000
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2017-04-02 23:04 +0200
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2017-04-03 17:45 +0000
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2017-04-03 22:09 +0200
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2017-03-29 23:24 +0100
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win supercat@casperkitty.com - 2017-03-29 15:52 -0700
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2017-03-30 12:26 +1300
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win GOTHIER Nathan <nathan.gothier@gmail.com> - 2017-03-30 12:00 +0200
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-03-30 12:43 +0200
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win GOTHIER Nathan <nathan.gothier@gmail.com> - 2017-03-30 13:38 +0200
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2017-03-30 14:21 +0200
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win antispam@math.uni.wroc.pl - 2017-03-31 04:30 +0000
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-03-31 09:39 +0200
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win jadill33@gmail.com - 2017-03-30 07:12 -0700
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2017-03-30 12:10 -0500
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2017-03-29 13:25 +0000
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2017-03-29 14:55 +0100
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-03-29 16:11 +0200
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2017-03-29 16:40 +0100
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2017-03-29 18:14 +0200
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win Gareth Owen <gwowen@gmail.com> - 2017-03-30 18:32 +0100
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2017-03-30 20:53 +0100
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2017-04-21 00:36 +0100
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2017-04-24 05:41 -0700
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2017-04-24 15:14 +0100
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win antispam@math.uni.wroc.pl - 2017-04-26 14:02 +0000
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2017-04-26 16:04 +0100
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2017-04-27 12:24 +0100
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2017-04-27 14:43 +0100
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-03-29 23:21 +0200
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2017-03-29 23:58 +0100
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-03-30 11:10 +0200
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win antispam@math.uni.wroc.pl - 2017-03-30 00:09 +0000
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2017-03-30 01:51 +0100
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win antispam@math.uni.wroc.pl - 2017-03-30 01:58 +0000
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2017-03-30 12:24 +0100
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-03-30 14:29 +0200
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2017-03-30 14:36 +0100
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-03-30 16:23 +0200
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2017-04-01 11:59 +0100
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2017-04-01 14:41 +0100
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-04-03 11:08 +0200
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2017-04-03 12:02 +0100
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-04-03 14:32 +0200
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2017-04-03 14:40 +0100
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-04-03 16:47 +0200
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2017-04-07 16:56 +0100
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2017-04-07 18:06 +0100
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-04-07 20:02 +0200
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2017-04-07 19:49 +0100
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-04-08 13:26 +0200
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2017-04-08 13:33 +0100
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-04-08 16:27 +0200
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2017-04-08 22:28 +0100
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2017-04-09 13:54 +1200
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win Gareth Owen <gwowen@gmail.com> - 2017-04-09 07:55 +0100
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2017-04-09 10:24 +0100
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2017-04-09 10:45 +0100
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2017-04-09 10:53 +0100
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-04-09 14:03 +0200
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win supercat@casperkitty.com - 2017-04-10 16:17 -0700
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2017-04-14 10:24 +0000
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win supercat@casperkitty.com - 2017-04-14 12:29 -0700
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2017-04-09 13:04 +0000
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win Gareth Owen <gwowen@gmail.com> - 2017-04-08 14:13 +0100
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2017-04-08 14:33 +0100
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2017-04-08 07:36 +0200
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2017-04-08 10:22 +0100
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2017-04-07 11:11 -0700
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2017-04-07 19:28 +0100
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2017-04-07 11:44 -0700
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win jameskuyper@verizon.net - 2017-04-08 08:00 -0700
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2017-04-07 12:29 +0100
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-04-07 13:46 +0200
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2017-04-07 14:10 +0100
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win antispam@math.uni.wroc.pl - 2017-03-30 21:59 +0000
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2017-03-31 00:19 +0100
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win me <crisdunbar@gmail.com> - 2017-03-30 17:53 -0700
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win GOTHIER Nathan <nathan.gothier@gmail.com> - 2017-03-31 11:34 +0200
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-03-30 12:35 +0200
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win mertesthomas@gmail.com - 2017-03-30 04:38 -0700
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2017-03-30 13:14 +0100
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-03-30 14:38 +0200
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2017-03-31 08:52 +1300
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2017-04-02 13:58 +0000
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-04-02 17:02 +0200
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2017-04-03 17:50 +0000
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-04-03 23:10 +0200
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2017-04-03 07:20 +1200
Optimized? (Was: Even more problems with lcc-win) gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2017-04-02 19:39 +0000
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win "James R. Kuyper" <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2017-04-02 15:59 -0400
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win supercat@casperkitty.com - 2017-04-02 14:11 -0700
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2017-04-03 17:08 +1200
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2017-04-03 13:42 +0000
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2017-03-30 13:06 +0100
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-03-30 14:58 +0200
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2017-03-30 14:50 +0100
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-03-30 16:27 +0200
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2017-03-30 16:57 +0100
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win mertesthomas@gmail.com - 2017-03-30 14:31 -0700
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2017-03-28 15:54 -0500
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2017-03-28 08:07 -0700
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win gordonb.uls6t@burditt.org (Gordon Burditt) - 2017-03-29 18:17 -0500
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2017-03-30 19:20 +0100
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2017-03-30 18:49 +0000
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2017-03-30 20:07 +0100
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win gordonb.b709o@burditt.org (Gordon Burditt) - 2017-04-16 03:45 -0500
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2017-04-16 16:34 +0100
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win Noob <root@127.0.0.1> - 2017-04-16 20:27 +0200
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win supercat@casperkitty.com - 2017-04-16 12:16 -0700
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2017-04-17 02:29 -0500
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2017-03-27 19:01 -0400
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2017-03-25 21:45 +0000
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2017-03-25 23:19 +0100
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win "James R. Kuyper" <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2017-03-25 19:10 -0400
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2017-03-26 00:54 +0100
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win jameskuyper@verizon.net - 2017-03-25 19:48 -0700
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win mertesthomas@gmail.com - 2017-03-26 05:12 -0700
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win supercat@casperkitty.com - 2017-03-26 14:00 -0700
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win gordonb.zdxct@burditt.org (Gordon Burditt) - 2017-03-27 02:03 -0500
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2017-03-24 22:39 -0500
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2017-03-25 09:13 +0100
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2017-03-25 11:24 +0000
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2017-03-26 08:42 +1300
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2017-03-25 19:51 +0000
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2017-03-26 09:10 +1300
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2017-03-25 20:24 +0000
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2017-03-25 13:43 -0700
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2017-03-26 10:30 +1300
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win Jean-Marc Bourguet <jm@bourguet.org> - 2017-03-26 10:23 +0200
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win supercat@casperkitty.com - 2017-03-24 15:08 -0700
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2017-03-24 22:43 +0000
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win supercat@casperkitty.com - 2017-03-24 15:55 -0700
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2017-03-24 16:27 -0700
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2017-03-25 01:17 +0100
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2017-03-25 01:18 +0100
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2017-03-27 15:06 +0000
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2017-03-27 16:37 +0100
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2017-03-27 16:25 +0000
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2017-03-27 17:57 +0000
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2017-03-27 19:12 +0100
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2017-03-27 14:19 -0500
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-03-24 19:25 +0100
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win supercat@casperkitty.com - 2017-03-24 08:10 -0700
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2017-03-24 13:01 +0000
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-03-24 15:50 +0100
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-03-24 13:07 +0100
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2017-03-24 15:48 +0100
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-03-24 16:26 +0100
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win Gareth Owen <gwowen@gmail.com> - 2017-03-24 16:32 +0000
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2017-03-24 12:53 -0400
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2017-03-24 18:24 +0100
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2017-03-24 17:29 +0000
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win jameskuyper@verizon.net - 2017-03-24 10:55 -0700
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win supercat@casperkitty.com - 2017-03-24 10:47 -0700
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2017-03-24 09:37 -0700
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2017-03-25 15:07 -0500
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win mertesthomas@gmail.com - 2017-03-29 09:56 -0700
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win supercat@casperkitty.com - 2017-03-29 10:39 -0700
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2017-03-29 12:22 -0700
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win mertesthomas@gmail.com - 2017-03-29 15:10 -0700
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2017-03-29 16:58 -0700
Re: Even more problems with Seed7 jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2017-03-30 01:02 +0200
Re: Even more problems with Seed7 Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2017-03-30 01:05 -0500
Re: Even more problems with Seed7 Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2017-03-30 01:19 -0500
Re: Even more problems with Seed7 mertesthomas@gmail.com - 2017-04-02 04:19 -0700
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win mertesthomas@gmail.com - 2017-03-30 00:34 -0700
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-03-30 13:05 +0200
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2017-03-31 00:00 +0200
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win mertesthomas@gmail.com - 2017-04-02 00:28 -0700
Re: Even more problems with lcc-win mertesthomas@gmail.com - 2017-03-30 00:50 -0700
csiph-web