Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard?

From	Alex <alex@rivadpm.com>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.forth
Subject	Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard?
Date	2017-03-06 14:25 +0000
Organization	A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID	<o9jrbk$pse$1@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References	(7 earlier) <o9d46a$j2c$1@dont-email.me> <a98c4ff3-2b1c-4958-812b-6756065bf553@googlegroups.com> <3688925b-65a3-4e80-8fad-d9191bfaa93c@googlegroups.com> <o9j9us$t1c$1@dont-email.me> <6c670837-c467-4144-a4a2-4c5d65589e5e@googlegroups.com>

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On 3/6/2017 13:22, hughaguilar96@gmail.com wrote:
> On Monday, March 6, 2017 at 2:28:37 AM UTC-7, Alex wrote:
>> On 3/6/2017 02:45, hughaguilar96@gmail.com wrote:
>>> In Straight Forth, all work with strings is done on the
>>> string-stack --- you never work with address and count on the
>>> data-stack like in ANS-Forth --- a packed string (address and
>>> count packed into a cell) can be held on the data-stack
>>> temporarily, and this is only done for the purpose of storing it
>>> in a data-structure (where it takes up only one cell, saving
>>> memory
>>
>> Why? On a modern system 64bit system, saving memory (which is
>> scalable) & sacrificing CPU  (where we're nearly at limit, hence
>> not scalable) is the absolute reverse of what you should be
>> pursuing.
>
> Data structures can be huge, so storing a string in one cell rather
> than two could save a lot of memory --- data-cache thrashing is a
> major speed sink, so saving memory is the same as improving speed.

Hugh, you're clueless here. Give up while you're behind.

>
> Straight Forth is a standard, so it describes behavior rather than
> implementation.

You've described an implementation with a one cell address/length 
thingy. Implementation.

>
> As a practical matter though, it is worthwhile to design it in such a
> manner that implementation will be efficient on modern
> desktop-computers. My own implementation is ITC, and I expect that
> most implementations will be ITC for a while, although STC is
> possible.
>
> In an ITC system, it is worthwhile to make the string-stack be part
> of the standard. This allows all of the string-stack words to be
> primitives written in assembly-language. By comparison, ANS-Forth
> doesn't have a string-stack as part of the standard. I wrote
> STRING-STACK.4TH which is ANS-Forth --- in order for it to be
> ANS-Forth however, then it has to be written in Forth, and hence it
> has to depend upon the compiler's optimizer in order to be efficient
> (it is pretty efficient in VFX and is much less efficient in
> SwiftForth).
>
> Such a low-level and fundamental aspect of Forth as the string-stack
> should be part of the standard so it can be written in
> assembly-language for efficiency. Also, a lot of the Forth language
> (such as <# etc.) rely on having a string-stack, so if these words
> are going to be standard then the string-stack has to be standard
> also.
>

No, I disagree. It's more implementation & better suited to a library. 
But since your standard is dictatorial rather than collaborative, and 
you don't care for anyone's opinion except your own, you go for it.

-- 
Alex

Thread

Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? lehs <skydda.barnen@gmail.com> - 2017-02-27 01:51 -0800
  Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? lehs <skydda.barnen@gmail.com> - 2017-02-27 02:35 -0800
    Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? lehs <skydda.barnen@gmail.com> - 2017-02-27 02:46 -0800
      Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-02-27 17:38 +0000
      Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-27 14:12 -0500
    Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? lehs <skydda.barnen@gmail.com> - 2017-02-27 04:42 -0800
    Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? lehs <skydda.barnen@gmail.com> - 2017-02-27 08:58 -0800
      Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-27 14:15 -0500
        Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? lehs <skydda.barnen@gmail.com> - 2017-02-27 11:51 -0800
          Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-27 15:17 -0500
            Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-02-28 09:02 +0000
              Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-28 19:15 -0500
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2017-03-01 02:23 +0100
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-28 20:57 -0500
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2017-03-01 13:24 +0100
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-03-01 14:23 -0500
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-03-01 08:50 +0000
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-03-01 10:04 -0600
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-03-01 14:51 -0500
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2017-03-01 13:00 -0800
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-03-02 15:34 +0000
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-03-01 18:09 +0000
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-03-01 14:55 -0500
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? lehs <skydda.barnen@gmail.com> - 2017-03-01 21:28 -0800
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2017-03-01 22:23 -0800
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? lehs <skydda.barnen@gmail.com> - 2017-03-02 00:21 -0800
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-03-02 01:01 -0800
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? lehs <skydda.barnen@gmail.com> - 2017-03-02 01:30 -0800
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-03-02 01:46 -0800
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2017-03-02 02:41 -0800
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-03-02 11:01 +0000
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-03-01 13:48 -0800
              Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? antispam@math.uni.wroc.pl - 2017-03-04 04:02 +0000
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-03-04 12:29 +0000
            Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-02-28 03:24 -0800
              Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? lehs <skydda.barnen@gmail.com> - 2017-02-28 04:14 -0800
      Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? Coos Haak <htrofhc@gmail.com> - 2017-02-27 21:50 +0100
        Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? lehs <skydda.barnen@gmail.com> - 2017-02-27 13:48 -0800
          Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-27 17:41 -0500
            Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? lehs <skydda.barnen@gmail.com> - 2017-02-27 15:07 -0800
              Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-27 19:03 -0500
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? lehs <skydda.barnen@gmail.com> - 2017-02-27 23:10 -0800
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-28 03:29 -0500
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? lehs <skydda.barnen@gmail.com> - 2017-02-28 01:28 -0800
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-02-28 09:58 +0000
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? lehs <skydda.barnen@gmail.com> - 2017-02-28 02:37 -0800
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-02-28 12:46 +0000
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? lehs <skydda.barnen@gmail.com> - 2017-02-28 05:01 -0800
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2017-02-28 12:46 +0100
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? Mikael Nordman <oh2aun@gmail.com> - 2017-02-28 03:52 -0800
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? lehs <skydda.barnen@gmail.com> - 2017-02-28 04:10 -0800
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? lehs <skydda.barnen@gmail.com> - 2017-02-28 05:48 -0800
              Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-02-28 10:07 +0000
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? lehs <skydda.barnen@gmail.com> - 2017-02-28 02:42 -0800
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2017-02-28 02:44 -0800
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? Coos Haak <htrofhc@gmail.com> - 2017-02-28 12:13 +0100
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2017-02-28 05:10 -0800
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? john <anon@example.com> - 2017-02-28 12:12 +0000
        Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? lehs <skydda.barnen@gmail.com> - 2017-02-27 13:51 -0800
  Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-02-27 15:38 +0000
    Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? lehs <skydda.barnen@gmail.com> - 2017-02-27 10:13 -0800
      Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2017-02-27 11:15 -0800
      Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-03-03 12:04 -0800
        Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-03-03 17:30 -0500
          Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-03-03 23:13 +0000
            Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-03-03 18:02 -0600
              Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-03-04 01:12 +0000
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2017-03-03 19:12 -0800
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2017-03-03 19:23 -0800
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-03-05 18:45 -0800
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-03-05 18:54 -0800
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2017-03-05 20:47 -0800
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-03-06 09:20 +0000
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-03-06 05:04 -0800
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-03-06 14:07 +0000
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-03-06 06:36 -0800
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-03-06 15:04 +0000
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-03-07 07:38 -0800
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-03-07 07:56 -0800
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2017-03-07 08:07 -0800
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2017-03-07 08:37 -0800
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-03-08 15:41 +0000
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-03-09 01:13 -0800
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-03-09 13:03 +0000
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? julian.fondren@endurance.com - 2017-03-07 08:36 -0800
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2017-03-07 19:02 +0100
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? alex@rivadpm.com - 2017-03-08 06:08 -0800
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-03-09 00:46 -0800
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-03-09 12:39 +0000
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-03-09 12:42 +0000
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-03-09 23:13 -0800
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-03-08 14:34 +0000
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-03-08 15:33 +0000
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-03-08 15:45 +0000
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-03-08 22:48 -0800
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-03-06 09:28 +0000
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-03-06 05:22 -0800
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-03-06 14:25 +0000
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-03-06 06:46 -0800
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-03-06 15:43 +0000
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? lehs <skydda.barnen@gmail.com> - 2017-03-06 09:55 -0800
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-03-06 11:04 -0600
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-03-07 07:44 -0800
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-03-07 10:50 -0600
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? john <anon@example.com> - 2017-03-08 11:30 +0000
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-03-08 13:37 +0000
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-03-08 14:14 +0000
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2017-03-08 15:16 +0100
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? john <anon@example.com> - 2017-03-08 16:14 +0000
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? john <anon@example.com> - 2017-03-08 14:49 +0000
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-03-09 10:57 -0500
              Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-03-05 18:22 -0800
          Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? lehs <skydda.barnen@gmail.com> - 2017-03-04 10:48 -0800
            Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-03-04 21:00 -0500
              Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? lehs <skydda.barnen@gmail.com> - 2017-03-05 02:24 -0800
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-03-05 16:44 -0500
            Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2017-03-04 20:02 -0800
              Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-03-04 23:34 -0500
              Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? lehs <skydda.barnen@gmail.com> - 2017-03-05 02:38 -0800
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-03-05 16:55 -0500
    Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2017-02-27 21:24 +0100

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