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Groups > comp.lang.forth > #55394

Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard?

From rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com>
Newsgroups comp.lang.forth
Subject Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard?
Date 2017-03-03 17:30 -0500
Organization A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID <o9cqm2$jon$1@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References <77617cde-2fa9-45f9-8b91-8c95e1a2416d@googlegroups.com> <2017Feb27.163840@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> <bdc03007-f8a8-4661-b7b0-1df51b3fec01@googlegroups.com> <d5192e14-c077-4c20-b001-27bfd4c963b4@googlegroups.com>

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On 3/3/2017 3:04 PM, hughaguilar96@gmail.com wrote:
> On Monday, February 27, 2017 at 11:13:10 AM UTC-7, lehs wrote:
>> Den måndag 27 februari 2017 kl. 18:37:49 UTC+1 skrev Anton Ertl:
>>> lehs <skydda.barnen@gmail.com> writes:
>>>> The DPANS document says:
>>>>
>>>> "Receive one character char, a member of the
>>>> implementation-defined character set. Keyboard events that do
>>>> not correspond to such characters are discarded until a valid
>>>> character is received, and those events are subsequently
>>>> unavailable.
>>>>
>>>> All standard characters can be received. Characters received by
>>>> KEY are not displayed."
>>>>
>>>> GForth KEY do not discard 'arrow up' but return 27 on the stack
>>>> and emits '[A'. That might be good but is it really ANS Forth?
>>>
>>> A Forth system that talks to a VT100-compatible terminal has no
>>> way to know whether the user pressed Cursor-Up or the sequence
>>> <ESC>[A (well, Gforth's EKEY tries to differentiate between these
>>> cases by timing, but thanks to network lags and macro keyboards
>>> that is not a 100% reliable way).
>>>
>>> And indeed, looking at Gforth, SwiftForth, VFX Forth, and
>>> bigForth for Linux, when I do
>>>
>>> key . key . key . key .
>>>
>>> and then press Cursor-up and then x, all of them output
>>>
>>> 27 91 65 120
>>>
>>> I also tried SP-Forth 4.20 for Linux, but its KEY just returns 0
>>> without waiting for a keypress; and EKEY just gives an error.
>>>
>>>> Words like KEY and EMIT must be exactly the same on any
>>>> system.
>>>
>>> Apart from SP-Forth, the systems I tried behaved the same way.
>>>
>>>> Else portability is an illusion.
>>>
>>> No, behaving exactly the same is not necessary for portability.
>>> E.g., CELLS does not behave the same way on 32-bit and 64-bit
>>> systems, and yet it is possible to write Forth programs that port
>>> between 32-bit and 64-bit systems, the the different behaviour of
>>> CELLS is a key part in that portability.
>>>
>>> Concerning KEY, it is a word for getting the raw input, and there
>>> are differences based on where the input is coming from (a
>>> terminal, a keyboard, or some serial port).
>>>
>>> For an editor, I would recommend working with EKEY, EKEY>CHAR,
>>> EKEY>FKEY, and the K-... words; and always provide an alternative
>>> to the special keys for cases where the keyboard does not have
>>> the special keys, or they do not work as expected.
>>>
>>> - anton -- M. Anton Ertl
>>> http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/anton/home.html comp.lang.forth
>>> FAQs: http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/faq/toc.html New
>>> standard: http://www.forth200x.org/forth200x.html EuroForth 2016:
>>> http://www.euroforth.org/ef16/
>>
>> Excuse me Anton Ertl but you are not talking about Forth, you are
>> talking about (unix) terminals. The standard is very clear: key
>> should return the ascii value or nothing (if the keystroke doesn't
>> correspond to an ascii value) and nothing should be emitted.
>>
>> That's what would bring true portability!
>
> LEHS is right about this. The whole point of ASCII being invented,
> was to allow portability between OS's. Beating LEHS up because he is
> a novice at the Unix world is missing the point --- this has nothing
> to do with Forth.

No one is beating up Leh because he is a novice.  Leh refuses to look at 
the full picture and listen to reason.


> It can be argued that ASCII wasn't a very good standard even at the
> time that it was invented, and it is worse now. ASCII is the standard
> though, and ANS-Forth does specify ASCII --- so, KEY and KEY? should
> work in the same way under any ANS-Forth system running under any OS
> --- but they don't.

If the issues have to do with limitations in the OS, then there is 
nothing Forth can do about it.  If the CPU uses 64 bit words and doesn't 
address bytes, you can't really expect a Forth to change that do you? 
Why would you expect a Forth to be able to figure out how the keyboard 
is configured and adapt the key strokes reported?


> BTW: Straight Forth is not going to have CELL that can be different
> values in different systems. It is going to assume a 64-bit cell ---
> this allows numerical programs to be written in standard Straight
> Forth --- not just numerical programs, but programs working with text
> too (because the address and count are both 32-bit and can be packed
> together in a single cell).

Whaaaa???  A 64 bit cell but only a 32 bit address?  Ok, it's your 
forth.  Doesn't seem very straight to me, seems rather bent.

-- 

Rick C

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Thread

Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? lehs <skydda.barnen@gmail.com> - 2017-02-27 01:51 -0800
  Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? lehs <skydda.barnen@gmail.com> - 2017-02-27 02:35 -0800
    Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? lehs <skydda.barnen@gmail.com> - 2017-02-27 02:46 -0800
      Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-02-27 17:38 +0000
      Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-27 14:12 -0500
    Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? lehs <skydda.barnen@gmail.com> - 2017-02-27 04:42 -0800
    Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? lehs <skydda.barnen@gmail.com> - 2017-02-27 08:58 -0800
      Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-27 14:15 -0500
        Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? lehs <skydda.barnen@gmail.com> - 2017-02-27 11:51 -0800
          Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-27 15:17 -0500
            Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-02-28 09:02 +0000
              Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-28 19:15 -0500
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2017-03-01 02:23 +0100
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-28 20:57 -0500
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2017-03-01 13:24 +0100
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-03-01 14:23 -0500
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-03-01 08:50 +0000
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-03-01 10:04 -0600
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-03-01 14:51 -0500
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2017-03-01 13:00 -0800
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-03-02 15:34 +0000
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-03-01 18:09 +0000
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-03-01 14:55 -0500
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? lehs <skydda.barnen@gmail.com> - 2017-03-01 21:28 -0800
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2017-03-01 22:23 -0800
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? lehs <skydda.barnen@gmail.com> - 2017-03-02 00:21 -0800
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-03-02 01:01 -0800
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? lehs <skydda.barnen@gmail.com> - 2017-03-02 01:30 -0800
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-03-02 01:46 -0800
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2017-03-02 02:41 -0800
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-03-02 11:01 +0000
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-03-01 13:48 -0800
              Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? antispam@math.uni.wroc.pl - 2017-03-04 04:02 +0000
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-03-04 12:29 +0000
            Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-02-28 03:24 -0800
              Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? lehs <skydda.barnen@gmail.com> - 2017-02-28 04:14 -0800
      Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? Coos Haak <htrofhc@gmail.com> - 2017-02-27 21:50 +0100
        Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? lehs <skydda.barnen@gmail.com> - 2017-02-27 13:48 -0800
          Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-27 17:41 -0500
            Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? lehs <skydda.barnen@gmail.com> - 2017-02-27 15:07 -0800
              Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-27 19:03 -0500
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? lehs <skydda.barnen@gmail.com> - 2017-02-27 23:10 -0800
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-28 03:29 -0500
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? lehs <skydda.barnen@gmail.com> - 2017-02-28 01:28 -0800
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-02-28 09:58 +0000
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? lehs <skydda.barnen@gmail.com> - 2017-02-28 02:37 -0800
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-02-28 12:46 +0000
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? lehs <skydda.barnen@gmail.com> - 2017-02-28 05:01 -0800
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2017-02-28 12:46 +0100
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? Mikael Nordman <oh2aun@gmail.com> - 2017-02-28 03:52 -0800
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? lehs <skydda.barnen@gmail.com> - 2017-02-28 04:10 -0800
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? lehs <skydda.barnen@gmail.com> - 2017-02-28 05:48 -0800
              Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-02-28 10:07 +0000
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? lehs <skydda.barnen@gmail.com> - 2017-02-28 02:42 -0800
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2017-02-28 02:44 -0800
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? Coos Haak <htrofhc@gmail.com> - 2017-02-28 12:13 +0100
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2017-02-28 05:10 -0800
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? john <anon@example.com> - 2017-02-28 12:12 +0000
        Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? lehs <skydda.barnen@gmail.com> - 2017-02-27 13:51 -0800
  Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-02-27 15:38 +0000
    Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? lehs <skydda.barnen@gmail.com> - 2017-02-27 10:13 -0800
      Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2017-02-27 11:15 -0800
      Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-03-03 12:04 -0800
        Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-03-03 17:30 -0500
          Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-03-03 23:13 +0000
            Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-03-03 18:02 -0600
              Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-03-04 01:12 +0000
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2017-03-03 19:12 -0800
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2017-03-03 19:23 -0800
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-03-05 18:45 -0800
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-03-05 18:54 -0800
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2017-03-05 20:47 -0800
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-03-06 09:20 +0000
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-03-06 05:04 -0800
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-03-06 14:07 +0000
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-03-06 06:36 -0800
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-03-06 15:04 +0000
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-03-07 07:38 -0800
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-03-07 07:56 -0800
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2017-03-07 08:07 -0800
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2017-03-07 08:37 -0800
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-03-08 15:41 +0000
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-03-09 01:13 -0800
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-03-09 13:03 +0000
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? julian.fondren@endurance.com - 2017-03-07 08:36 -0800
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2017-03-07 19:02 +0100
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? alex@rivadpm.com - 2017-03-08 06:08 -0800
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-03-09 00:46 -0800
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-03-09 12:39 +0000
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-03-09 12:42 +0000
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-03-09 23:13 -0800
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-03-08 14:34 +0000
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-03-08 15:33 +0000
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-03-08 15:45 +0000
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-03-08 22:48 -0800
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-03-06 09:28 +0000
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-03-06 05:22 -0800
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-03-06 14:25 +0000
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-03-06 06:46 -0800
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-03-06 15:43 +0000
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? lehs <skydda.barnen@gmail.com> - 2017-03-06 09:55 -0800
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-03-06 11:04 -0600
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-03-07 07:44 -0800
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-03-07 10:50 -0600
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? john <anon@example.com> - 2017-03-08 11:30 +0000
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-03-08 13:37 +0000
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-03-08 14:14 +0000
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2017-03-08 15:16 +0100
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? john <anon@example.com> - 2017-03-08 16:14 +0000
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? john <anon@example.com> - 2017-03-08 14:49 +0000
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-03-09 10:57 -0500
              Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-03-05 18:22 -0800
          Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? lehs <skydda.barnen@gmail.com> - 2017-03-04 10:48 -0800
            Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-03-04 21:00 -0500
              Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? lehs <skydda.barnen@gmail.com> - 2017-03-05 02:24 -0800
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-03-05 16:44 -0500
            Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2017-03-04 20:02 -0800
              Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-03-04 23:34 -0500
              Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? lehs <skydda.barnen@gmail.com> - 2017-03-05 02:38 -0800
                Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-03-05 16:55 -0500
    Re: Is GForth KEY really ANS Forth standard? albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2017-02-27 21:24 +0100

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