Re: RfD: new double syntax

From	Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.forth
Subject	Re: RfD: new double syntax
Date	2016-07-02 09:58 -0500
Organization	A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID	<nl8kps$e1e$1@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References	<2016Jul1.191836@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> <adCdneiFRM7LHurKnZ2dnUU7-UednZ2d@supernews.com> <2016Jul2.154436@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at>

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On 7/2/2016 8:44 AM, Anton Ertl wrote:
> Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> writes:
>> Anton Ertl <anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> wrote:
>>>
>>> Experience
>>> ----------
>>>
>>> None.
>>
>> I would argue that this proposal should be considered and then
>> rejected for lack of existing practice.
>
> Actually the reason for this proposal is due to a conflict with the
> existing practice of other programming languages.
>
>> It would be appropriate for
>> implementers to offer this as an experimental mode and see where that
>> goes.  If it does become common practice, then a future standard could
>> sanctify it.
>
> I very much doubt that this is a path that leads to adoption.  Do you
> think that anybody will be convinced by a report "We have implemented
> *1 for a double 1 for three years, and have not received any
> complaints."  Will it be better after ten years?  Fifty?
>
> No, this is the kind of proposal where people have to make a conscious
> decision that, yes, we care about beginners tripping over "1.", and we
> want to do something about it, even if that means, e.g., running
> existing programs through a converter when the "1." syntax is finally
> destandardized (if the system then indeed stops supporting that
> syntax).  Or they make a decision that, no, leaving existing programs
> completely alone is more important than avoiding pitfalls for
> beginning Forth programmers.  In the latter case that decision is not
> going to change no matter how much experience there is.
>
> - anton
>
One wonders where this attitude was (standing up for principles ) when 
the current standard was approved? Nowhere to be seen, it seems that 
getting along with all methods in use was placed above making the 
"Standard" clear and without missing pieces.

One wonders if before adopting the language a version of Forth was 
written that was 100% in compliance with no secret stuff added, and then 
used to create applications and Forth itself, I don't know for sure if 
it was tried but I bet it wasn't done with a 100% clean Forth that met 
the "Standard" and nothing else.

Making everyone happy was chosen over clarity, that doomed that effort. 
and was worse than a waste of time, it doomed the language to third rate 
at best, and in the new version we are doubling down on that doomed 
premise. Just the quote from a famous movie "Stupid is as stupid does" 
is very valid.

-- 
Cecil - k5nwa

Thread

RfD: new double syntax anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-07-01 17:18 +0000
  Re: RfD: new double syntax hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-07-01 11:45 -0700
    Re: RfD: new double syntax rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-07-01 14:46 -0400
  Re: RfD: new double syntax Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2016-07-01 11:47 -0700
    Re: RfD: new double syntax anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-07-02 14:54 +0000
  Re: RfD: new double syntax mhx@iae.nl - 2016-07-01 11:48 -0700
    Re: RfD: new double syntax anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-07-02 14:52 +0000
  Re: RfD: new double syntax "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2016-07-01 09:10 -1000
    Re: RfD: new double syntax hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-07-01 19:10 -0700
      Re: RfD: new double syntax "WJ" <w_a_x_man@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-02 06:23 +0000
  RfD: new double syntax krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2016-07-01 20:54 -0700
    RfD: new double syntax krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2016-07-01 21:18 -0700
      Re: RfD: new double syntax hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-07-01 22:26 -0700
        Re: RfD: new double syntax "WJ" <w_a_x_man@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-02 22:32 +0000
          Re: RfD: new double syntax rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-07-03 01:16 -0400
            Re: RfD: new double syntax Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> - 2016-07-03 08:34 +0300
              Re: RfD: new double syntax rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-07-03 03:00 -0400
                Re: RfD: new double syntax Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> - 2016-07-03 10:20 +0300
                Re: RfD: new double syntax anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-07-03 08:29 +0000
            Re: RfD: new double syntax hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-07-02 23:10 -0700
              Re: RfD: new double syntax Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2016-07-02 23:20 -0700
                Re: RfD: new double syntax rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-07-03 03:02 -0400
      Re: RfD: new double syntax anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-07-02 14:20 +0000
    Re: RfD: new double syntax anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-07-02 14:11 +0000
  Re: RfD: new double syntax josv@planet.nl - 2016-07-02 00:26 -0700
    Re: RfD: new double syntax "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2016-07-01 22:22 -1000
      Re: RfD: new double syntax "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2016-07-02 22:02 +1000
        Re: RfD: new double syntax "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2016-07-02 11:19 -1000
    Re: RfD: new double syntax anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-07-02 14:02 +0000
  Re: RfD: new double syntax Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-07-02 04:03 -0500
    Re: RfD: new double syntax anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-07-02 13:44 +0000
      Re: RfD: new double syntax hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-07-02 07:38 -0700
        Re: RfD: new double syntax hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-07-02 07:42 -0700
        Re: RfD: new double syntax "WJ" <w_a_x_man@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-02 22:44 +0000
      Re: RfD: new double syntax Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2016-07-02 09:58 -0500
      Re: RfD: new double syntax "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2016-07-02 11:32 -1000
      Re: RfD: new double syntax "WJ" <w_a_x_man@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-03 00:27 +0000
      Re: RfD: new double syntax hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-07-04 08:05 -0700
      Re: RfD: new double syntax Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-07-04 03:50 -0500
        Re: RfD: new double syntax Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-07-04 03:53 -0500
  Re: RfD: new double syntax anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-07-02 17:32 +0000
    Re: RfD: new double syntax Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2016-07-02 10:52 -0700
      Re: RfD: new double syntax krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2016-07-02 13:03 -0700
      Re: RfD: new double syntax anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-07-03 15:02 +0000
        Re: RfD: new double syntax Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2016-07-03 11:18 -0700
          Re: RfD: new double syntax Coos Haak <chforth@hccnet.nl> - 2016-07-03 21:19 +0200
    Re: RfD: new double syntax Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2016-07-03 11:36 +0100
      Re: RfD: new double syntax Gerard Sontag <gerardsontag@gmail.com> - 2016-07-03 06:58 -0700
        Re: RfD: new double syntax anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-07-03 14:21 +0000
          Re: RfD: new double syntax Gerard Sontag <gerardsontag@gmail.com> - 2016-07-03 07:55 -0700
          Re: RfD: new double syntax hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-07-03 08:08 -0700
            Dealing with multiple recognizers (was: RfD: new double syntax) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-07-03 15:13 +0000
              Re: Dealing with multiple recognizers (was: RfD: new double syntax) hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-07-03 09:57 -0700
          Re: RfD: new double syntax rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-07-05 01:12 -0400
            Re: RfD: new double syntax Gerard Sontag <gerardsontag@gmail.com> - 2016-07-05 07:56 -0700
              Re: RfD: new double syntax rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-07-05 11:18 -0400
        Re: RfD: new double syntax JennyB <jennybrien@googlemail.com> - 2016-07-03 08:15 -0700
        Re: RfD: new double syntax Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2016-07-03 12:42 -0500
          Re: RfD: new double syntax "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2016-07-03 09:32 -1000
            Re: RfD: new double syntax hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-07-04 07:34 -0700
          Re: RfD: new double syntax Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2016-07-04 10:35 -0700
          Re: RfD: new double syntax Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2016-07-04 09:00 -0700
            Re: RfD: new double syntax hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-07-04 09:51 -0700
          Re: RfD: new double syntax Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-07-04 11:20 -0500
            Re: RfD: new double syntax Howerd <howerdo@yahoo.co.uk> - 2016-07-06 04:08 -0700
              Re: RfD: new double syntax Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-07-06 06:24 -0500
                Re: RfD: new double syntax Alex McDonald <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2016-07-06 12:38 +0100
                Re: RfD: new double syntax Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-07-06 06:46 -0500
                Re: RfD: new double syntax Howerd <howerdo@yahoo.co.uk> - 2016-07-06 13:37 -0700
                Re: RfD: new double syntax Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-07-07 03:28 -0500
                Re: RfD: new double syntax Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2016-08-04 23:59 +0000
                Re: RfD: new double syntax Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-08-04 19:26 -0500
                Re: RfD: new double syntax Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-08-04 17:34 -0700
                Re: RfD: new double syntax franck.bensusan@gmail.com - 2016-08-05 02:57 -0700
                Re: RfD: new double syntax Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-08-05 13:15 -0700
                Re: RfD: new double syntax franck.bensusan@gmail.com - 2016-08-06 01:56 -0700
                Re: RfD: new double syntax Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-08-07 17:22 -0700
                Re: RfD: new double syntax franck.bensusan@gmail.com - 2016-08-08 04:56 -0700
                Re: RfD: new double syntax josv@planet.nl - 2016-08-08 08:50 -0700
                Re: RfD: new double syntax franck.bensusan@gmail.com - 2016-08-08 12:26 -0700
                Re: RfD: new double syntax josv@planet.nl - 2016-08-08 15:41 -0700
                Re: RfD: new double syntax mhx@iae.nl - 2016-08-08 23:06 -0700
                Re: RfD: new double syntax josv@planet.nl - 2016-08-09 00:57 -0700
                Re: RfD: new double syntax franck.bensusan@gmail.com - 2016-08-09 03:05 -0700
                Re: RfD: new double syntax hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-08-10 01:46 -0700
                Re: RfD: new double syntax Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-08-10 19:07 -0700
                Re: RfD: new double syntax franck.bensusan@gmail.com - 2016-08-11 05:24 -0700
                Re: RfD: new double syntax josv@planet.nl - 2016-08-06 04:50 -0700
                Re: RfD: new double syntax Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-08-05 12:01 -0500
          Re: RfD: new double syntax Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2016-07-04 08:51 -0500
          Re: RfD: new double syntax Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-07-04 04:03 -0500
      Re: RfD: new double syntax anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-07-03 14:56 +0000
        Re: RfD: new double syntax Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2016-07-03 22:00 +0100

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