Re: New to the group

From	rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.forth
Subject	Re: New to the group
Date	2015-10-02 18:10 -0400
Organization	A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID	<mumv9n$3is$1@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References	(10 earlier) <muj8v3$lu9$1@dont-email.me> <op.x5u2s0goyfako5@localhost> <6bba1447-e1fe-42dd-8972-8f3c9837ad5c@googlegroups.com> <mumr5m$gti$1@dont-email.me> <f57efe82-35b9-41c5-a8a7-19190c3424d6@googlegroups.com>

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On 10/2/2015 5:46 PM, Chris Curl wrote:
> On Friday, October 2, 2015 at 5:00:32 PM UTC-4, rickman wrote:
>> On 10/2/2015 4:52 AM, Mark Wills wrote:
>>> I think it's worse than that. We're in a situation where "ANS Compliant"
>>> code runs differently on different *ANS compliant* systems. That's
>>> untenable in my view.
>>
>> No, "ANS Uncompliant" code runs differently on different systems.  If
>> you are doing an operation that the spec says produces "ambiguous"
>> conditions, by definition this code is not compliant.
>> --
>>
>> Rick
>
> If a spec says the resulting condition in a use case is ambiguous, to me, that means that it is not known what the resulting condition will be.

Not "not known"... not specified.  Any given system may produce a known 
and repeatable result, but that result may be different from other 
systems or the same system under other conditions.

> Are you saying that if my implementation of that use case results in a condition I can predict, then my implementation is not compliant? If so, then I'm not sure I WANT my implementation to be compliant.

No one in their right mind is saying that.

> In order for an implementation to be non-compliant, the spec has to be clear about the resulting condition, so it can be tested against implementations to see if they produce that condition or not. How can you test for ambiguity? Therefore, if a spec says a condition is ambiguous, then every implementation complies.

You have crossed the boarder into loony land.  When the spec says a 
usage produces an "ambiguous condition" it gives a long list of 
potential responses by the system including, "take 
implementation-dependent actions".  Obviously this does not need to be 
tested.  That is the point of an "ambiguous condition", it is outside of 
what is specified by the spec.

> On the other hand, if it is merely saying that, should 3rd party use of that feature encounter such a situation, it cannot depend on a specific resulting condition, then I understand the intent. Of course, that makes it hard on 3rd party developers, because then they need to ensure that use case doesn't ever happen, which increases the likelihood of a decision to not use that feature at all.

Wow, I can't tell if you really don't get it or if you are being 
intentionally difficult.

Yes, if the spec says a "use case" results in an ambiguous condition 
that means it is *not* specified in the spec and *may* differ between 
systems.  For a program to be compliant to the spec and produce 
consistent results across platforms, it should not use "features" that 
create ambiguous conditions.

Everything about different systems can't be specified to always be the 
same.  If it were, they would not be able to work on different platforms 
or support different capabilities.  Other things are considered to be 
"ambiguous conditions" because doing them doesn't make a lot of sense 
and is not worth the effort of making them work one particular way.

-- 

Rick

Thread

New to the group Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2015-09-26 15:17 -0700
  Re: New to the group mentificium@gmail.com - 2015-09-26 17:35 -0700
  Re: New to the group hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-09-26 21:16 -0700
    Re: New to the group Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2015-09-27 07:27 -0700
      Re: New to the group rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-09-27 14:43 -0400
        Re: New to the group Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2015-09-27 13:05 -0700
        Re: New to the group "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-09-27 12:57 -1000
        Re: New to the group Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-09-27 17:00 -0700
          Re: New to the group hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-09-27 17:16 -0700
            Re: New to the group rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-09-27 20:31 -0400
            Re: New to the group jfong@ms4.hinet.net - 2015-09-27 18:57 -0700
              Re: New to the group hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-09-27 19:37 -0700
                Re: New to the group Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2015-09-27 20:53 -0700
                Re: New to the group "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-09-27 19:02 -1000
                Re: New to the group hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-09-27 23:33 -0700
                Re: New to the group Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2015-09-28 04:51 -0700
                Re: New to the group rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-09-28 12:39 -0400
                Re: New to the group Roelf Toxopeus <rt4all@notthis.hetnet.nl> - 2015-09-28 14:29 +0200
                Re: New to the group Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2015-09-28 07:18 -0700
                Re: New to the group foxaudioresearch@gmail.com - 2015-09-28 08:07 -0700
                Re: New to the group Roelf Toxopeus <rt4all@notthis.hetnet.nl> - 2015-09-28 17:23 +0200
                Re: New to the group Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2015-09-28 11:16 -0700
                Re: New to the group rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-09-28 14:25 -0400
                Re: New to the group anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-09-29 09:05 +0000
                Re: New to the group Roelf Toxopeus <rt4all@notthis.hetnet.nl> - 2015-09-28 20:31 +0200
                Re: New to the group Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2015-09-28 13:20 -0700
                Re: New to the group Roelf Toxopeus <rt4all@notthis.hetnet.nl> - 2015-09-28 22:52 +0200
                Re: New to the group Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2015-09-28 16:40 -0700
                Re: New to the group Alfred Singlestone <vitonis@gmail.com> - 2015-09-28 08:41 -0700
                Re: New to the group "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-09-28 11:41 -1000
                Re: New to the group hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-09-28 21:33 -0700
                Re: New to the group jfong@ms4.hinet.net - 2015-09-28 19:13 -0700
                Re: New to the group rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-09-29 00:51 -0400
                Re: New to the group jfong@ms4.hinet.net - 2015-09-29 18:26 -0700
                Re: New to the group rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-09-29 21:55 -0400
                Re: New to the group Jan Coombs <Jan-54 <jenfhaomndgfwutc@murmic.plus.com>> - 2015-09-30 08:29 +0100
                Re: New to the group jfong@ms4.hinet.net - 2015-09-29 18:52 -0700
                Re: New to the group hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-09-29 00:29 -0700
                Re: New to the group Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2015-09-29 04:40 -0700
                Re: New to the group Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2015-09-29 05:24 -0700
                Re: New to the group Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2015-09-29 07:33 -0700
                Re: New to the group hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-09-29 14:11 -0700
                Re: New to the group "WJ" <w_a_x_man@yahoo.com> - 2015-09-29 16:46 +0000
                Re: New to the group hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-09-29 14:15 -0700
                Re: New to the group rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-09-29 17:34 -0400
                Re: New to the group "WJ" <w_a_x_man@yahoo.com> - 2015-09-30 00:07 +0000
    Re: New to the group Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2015-09-27 10:54 -0700
  Re: New to the group Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-09-26 22:37 -0700
    Re: New to the group Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2015-09-27 10:51 -0700
  Re: New to the group Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2015-09-29 17:15 -0700
    Re: New to the group rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-09-29 21:58 -0400
      Re: New to the group Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2015-09-29 22:03 -0700
        Re: New to the group "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-09-29 21:32 -1000
          Re: New to the group Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2015-09-30 09:06 +0100
            Re: New to the group "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-09-30 08:58 -1000
              Re: New to the group Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2015-09-30 23:55 -0700
                Re: New to the group "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-09-30 21:28 -1000
                Re: New to the group rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-10-01 08:25 -0400
                Re: New to the group hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-10-01 09:33 -0700
            Re: New to the group hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-09-30 16:21 -0700
              Re: New to the group "Rod Pemberton" <boo@fasdfrewar.cdm> - 2015-09-30 21:03 -0400
                Re: New to the group "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-09-30 19:34 -1000
                Re: New to the group hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-09-30 23:47 -0700
                Re: New to the group rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-10-01 08:31 -0400
                Re: New to the group "Rod Pemberton" <boo@fasdfrewar.cdm> - 2015-10-02 00:30 -0400
                Re: New to the group "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-10-01 19:22 -1000
                Re: New to the group hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-10-01 23:52 -0700
                Re: New to the group Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2015-10-02 01:52 -0700
                Re: New to the group "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-10-02 08:36 -1000
                Re: New to the group rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-10-02 17:00 -0400
                Re: New to the group Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2015-10-02 14:46 -0700
                Re: New to the group rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-10-02 18:10 -0400
                Re: New to the group Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-10-02 16:08 -0700
                Re: New to the group "Rod Pemberton" <boo@fasdfrewar.cdm> - 2015-10-02 20:44 -0400
                Re: New to the group David Thompson <dave.thompson2@verizon.net> - 2015-10-31 06:54 -0400
                Re: New to the group "Rod Pemberton" <too@zxcvfeqad.cdm> - 2015-11-02 02:34 -0500
                Re: New to the group David Thompson <dave.thompson2@verizon.net> - 2015-12-22 06:45 -0500
                Re: New to the group "Rod Pemberton" <too@zxcvfeqad.cdm> - 2015-11-02 02:34 -0500
                Re: New to the group "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-10-02 15:16 -1000
                Re: New to the group Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-10-02 18:21 -0700
                Re: New to the group "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-10-02 15:38 -1000
                Re: New to the group rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-10-02 22:13 -0400
                Re: New to the group Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2015-10-03 22:24 +0100
                Re: New to the group rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-10-03 17:33 -0400
          Re: New to the group hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-09-30 17:00 -0700
            Re: New to the group "Rod Pemberton" <boo@fasdfrewar.cdm> - 2015-09-30 20:38 -0400
            Re: New to the group Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2015-10-02 14:37 -0400
              Re: New to the group rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-10-02 17:01 -0400
              Re: New to the group hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-10-02 23:35 -0700
        Re: New to the group "Rod Pemberton" <boo@fasdfrewar.cdm> - 2015-09-30 18:11 -0400
          Re: New to the group Coos Haak <chforth@hccnet.nl> - 2015-10-01 02:13 +0200
    Re: New to the group Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2015-09-30 08:38 +0100
      Re: New to the group Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2015-09-30 10:58 -0400
  Re: New to the group Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2015-10-01 06:04 -0700
    Re: New to the group rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-10-01 09:46 -0400
    Re: New to the group anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-10-08 06:07 +0000
      Re: New to the group Alfred Singlestone <vitonis@gmail.com> - 2015-10-09 04:04 -0700
        Re: New to the group rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-10-09 10:29 -0400
        Re: New to the group anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-10-09 15:30 +0000
  Re: New to the group lehs <skydda.barnen@gmail.com> - 2015-10-03 00:19 -0700
    Re: New to the group visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2015-10-03 17:01 -0700
    Re: New to the group anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-10-08 06:38 +0000
      Re: New to the group "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-10-07 21:15 -1000
        Minimal wordset (was: New to the group) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-10-08 13:39 +0000
          Re: Minimal wordset (was: New to the group) JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2015-10-08 08:13 -0700
            Re: Minimal wordset (was: New to the group) Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2015-10-09 00:55 -0700
              Re: Minimal wordset Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2015-10-09 10:43 +0200
                Re: Minimal wordset Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2015-10-09 06:56 -0700
                Re: Minimal wordset Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2015-10-09 19:44 +0200
                Re: Minimal wordset Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-10-09 14:02 -0700
                Re: Minimal wordset Jan Coombs <Jan-54 <jenfhaomndgfwutc@murmic.plus.com>> - 2015-10-10 09:44 +0100
                Re: Minimal wordset anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-10-10 11:36 +0000
                Re: Minimal wordset lehs <skydda.barnen@gmail.com> - 2015-10-09 08:40 -0700
                Re: Minimal wordset Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2015-10-09 19:53 +0200
                Re: Minimal wordset lehs <skydda.barnen@gmail.com> - 2015-10-09 11:22 -0700
                Re: Minimal wordset JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2015-10-09 11:33 -0700
                Re: Minimal wordset Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2015-10-09 20:38 +0200
                Re: Minimal wordset stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2015-10-09 20:56 +0000
                Re: Minimal wordset rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-11-01 20:10 -0500
                Re: Minimal wordset Coos Haak <chforth@hccnet.nl> - 2015-11-02 03:05 +0100
                Re: Minimal wordset "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-11-01 16:08 -1000
                Re: Minimal wordset stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2015-11-02 09:35 +0000
                Re: Minimal wordset anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-11-02 12:42 +0000
                Re: Minimal wordset humptydumpty <ouatubi@gmail.com> - 2015-11-08 23:22 -0800
                Re: Minimal wordset rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-11-03 11:25 -0500
                Re: Minimal wordset stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2015-11-03 19:36 +0000
                Re: Minimal wordset "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2015-11-08 12:56 +1100
                Re: Minimal wordset stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2015-11-08 16:14 +0000
                Re: Minimal wordset "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2015-11-09 11:55 +1100
                Re: Minimal wordset anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-11-02 09:41 +0000
                Re: Minimal wordset rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-11-03 11:29 -0500
                Re: Minimal wordset anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-11-03 17:01 +0000
                Re: Minimal wordset JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2015-10-09 11:27 -0700
            Re: Minimal wordset (was: New to the group) "Rod Pemberton" <boo@fasdfrewar.cdm> - 2015-10-09 23:11 -0400
              Re: Minimal wordset (was: New to the group) Jan Coombs <Jan-54 <jenfhaomndgfwutc@murmic.plus.com>> - 2015-10-10 08:38 +0100
      Re: New to the group dunno <dunno@dunno.dunno> - 2015-10-14 23:14 +0000
        Re: New to the group "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-10-14 16:21 -1000
        Re: New to the group anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-10-15 08:46 +0000
  Re: New to the group Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2015-10-03 09:23 -0700
    Re: New to the group "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-10-03 09:19 -1000
  Re: New to the group lehs <skydda.barnen@gmail.com> - 2015-10-08 05:24 -0700
    Re: New to the group "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-10-08 08:22 -1000
      Re: New to the group lehs <skydda.barnen@gmail.com> - 2015-10-09 08:37 -0700
  Re: New to the group Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2015-10-31 10:44 -0700

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