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Re: SQL filesortcc question

From Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk>
Newsgroups comp.lang.c
Subject Re: SQL filesortcc question
Date 2015-08-03 19:09 +0100
Organization go, ion artisan!
Message-ID <mpoalp$maf$1@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References (4 earlier) <kfnlhealmtg.fsf@x-alumni2.alumni.caltech.edu> <mojef4$nfu$1@dont-email.me> <kfn6158goh2.fsf@x-alumni2.alumni.caltech.edu> <mp6ble$fr3$1@dont-email.me> <kfny4hs8lf4.fsf@x-alumni2.alumni.caltech.edu>

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On 03/08/15 16:02, Tim Rentsch wrote:

<snip>

> Your objection to C99 and following is that they have the effect
> of diluting the standard.  Just after C90 was standardized, and
> basically for ten years thereafter, there was a single C
> language, "one C to rule them all" one might say.  And that was a
> wonderful thing for C developers.  Then in 1999, suddenly there
> was a new C standard, different from C90, which changed a small
> number of things and introduced a dozen or two new things (some
> "big", some "small"), along with the declaration (ie, from ISO)
> that this revised language is what constutes C.
>
> An important consequence of C99, especially in light of what
> compilers people were actually using, is that now "C" meant two
> different things.

<snip>

That's a very good summary, yes.

>
> If we imagine a thought experiment, and one which is quite
> impossible to actually perform, where what is now called C99
> was the language initially standardized in 1989/90, and what
> is now called C90 is the 1999 revision of that ("oops, we
> put in features we shouldn't have"), based on your comments
> I think you would have been just as adamant that the revision
> (ie, what we now call C90) is a big mistake, and the original
> language (what we now call C99) is much better.  More adamant
> in fact, since the (hypothetically) original language would
> have been significantly reduced by the (again, hypothetical)
> revision.

That's true. In fact, I conducted that thought experiment myself in a 
recent reply (which I imagine is why you expressed it as you did, 
above). It isn't the changes themselves, but the fact of the change.

> In characterizing the situation, you often use the word "simple",
> but the simpleness is more about singleness of meaning than about
> the language definition itself.

I think /sometimes/ it's about simplicity of language, though. Take, for 
example, bool. Had this been in C90, I think it would have strengthened 
the language. But wchar_t (which /was/ in C90) was a weakness. Frankly, 
I think I would have preferred a C90 that did this:

byte - fundamental unit, exists only as unsigned type
char - guaranteed-at-least-32-bits character type, exists only as 
unsigned type

to the mess we actually got. Unicode support would not then have 
required any fundamental changes to the language.


> Having to deal with a single C
> language is simple;  having to deal with multiple C languages is
> not simple, even if (hypothetically) the simplicities of the
> various C languages were all exactly the same.  It is in this
> sense that you say C99 was a big mistake (because it dilutes the
> language) and C11 was a bigger mistake (because it dilutes the
> language even more);  the comment is not exactly about the
> languages themselves as it is about the effect that having
> multiple languages has on the development community.

Yes, that's a reasonable summary.

>
> All of the above is simply my attempt to play back what you have
> said, in my own words of course, but trying to be faithful to
> your intended meaning.  Has my attempt done a good job of
> hitting the mark?  Or is there something I have misunderstood?

I think that's a job well jobbed.

>
> Proceeding on the (shaky) assumption that my rephrasing matches
> what you were trying to say, there are two other comments I
> would like to make.
>
> The first is about portability, or more accurately about using
> the term.  In your remarks you often used the word portable or
> one of its variants, but I think what you actually mean is
> something slightly different, which is availability.  Writing
> code in C that is completely portable, even using just C90, is a
> very difficult thing - limited range of ints, can't have big
> objects, CHAR_BIT may be larger than 8, etc, I'm sure you know
> the drill.  The property you are looking for is that your
> programs can be compiled widely, that is, availability of an
> appropriate compiler for the language you are writing in, and not
> a guarantee that the program will necessarily behave correctly on
> all conforming implementations, even limited to just those
> implementations that actually exist.

It's both - in the sense that the program should actually do what is 
required of it, regardless of the platform on which it is running.

> (Of course, that is an
> ideal that we would all like to achieve, but it isn't exactly
> what you mean when you say C90 is portable -- right?)

It's all about the program (if correctly written) doing the Right Thing 
on all the platforms on which it runs. I think that /is/ an unattainable 
ideal, yes - but at the very least we should be able to say:

#error Your platform is not supported because...

> The second is about how you answered.  It is almost always true
> that when I ask a question what I am looking for first is to
> understand what the other person thinks.  My problem with your
> first answer is not that I disagreed with it, but that it didn't
> do anything to help me understand your point of view.  Not /why/
> you think something, but /what/ it is you think in the first
> place.  To a first approximation I don't care if our opinions are
> the same or different.  But I do want to understand what your
> opinion (or someone else's to whom I am asking a question) is.
> Talking to me, it's better to simply state your views (assuming one
> knows what they are in a state-able form, which isn't always the
> case, but that's another matter) than to try to defend them.
> (Unfortunately, how I come across to people when I ask questions
> often seems to put them in a defensive posture, which I don't
> understand very well but am trying to improve on.

You have an interesting writing style. I am, generally speaking, a 
reasonably amicable person with quite a thick skin (specially developed 
on, by, and for Usenet), so it isn't easy to offend me. In all honesty, 
though, I do get the impression that you're trying hard. No doubt that 
is a false impression, and it's just how it comes across to me, but it's 
a hard impression to shake. I do my best to respond amicably, but 
sometimes words fail me and I either don't reply at all or only offer a 
very brief response. (Alas, it is also the case that I don't read every 
article in comp.lang.c nowadays, so the absence of an answer does not 
necessarily mean you've managed to get my goat again!) As I said, I'm 
guessing that this outcome is not one that you intend, and so I try to 
keep an open mind.

 > Anyway that's
> my problem...)  So for me in particular (and assuming it helps,
> which may not be a good assumption), my suggestion is the short
> advice "speak to convey, not to convice".

I'll see what I can do.

> If you convey your
> point of view it may convince me;  if you don't convey your point
> of view it will never convince me.  I don't claim this advice is
> a good idea with all people, but generally I think it is a good
> idea when you are (primarily) addressing a statement or question
> that came from me.
>
> I hope the above comments have helped further the discussion.
> And now I await (with, I have to admit, a mixture of anticipation
> and dread :) what comments you might make in response.

If you dread my response, you don't know me very well. It is true that 
my sarcasm has been known to kill (at some distance, I might add), but I 
don't crank it all the way up to 11 for just anyone, you know. :-)

-- 
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within

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        Re: SQL filesortcc question jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2015-07-16 19:38 +0200
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                Re: SQL filesortcc question Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-07-29 21:07 +0100
                Re: SQL filesortcc question James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-07-29 16:33 -0400
                Re: SQL filesortcc question Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-07-29 22:12 +0100
                Re: SQL filesortcc question Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-07-29 23:50 +0100
                Re: SQL filesortcc question Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-07-30 00:13 +0100
                Re: SQL filesortcc question Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-07-30 01:49 +0100
                Re: SQL filesortcc question Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-07-30 02:07 +0100
                Re: SQL filesortcc question Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-07-30 03:04 +0100
                Re: SQL filesortcc question Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-07-30 08:25 +0100
                Re: SQL filesortcc question Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-07-30 09:15 -0700
                Re: SQL filesortcc question Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-07-30 17:17 +0100
                Re: SQL filesortcc question Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-07-30 17:00 +0100
                Re: SQL filesortcc question Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-07-30 17:12 +0100
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                Re: SQL filesortcc question Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-07-31 10:29 +0100
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                Re: SQL filesortcc question Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-07-31 11:12 -0700
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                Re: SQL filesortcc question James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-08-02 09:19 -0400
                Re: SQL filesortcc question raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-08-09 14:23 +0000
                Re: SQL filesortcc question Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-08-02 06:35 -0700
                Re: SQL filesortcc question David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-08-02 19:11 +0200
                Re: SQL filesortcc question Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-08-02 10:28 -0700
                Re: SQL filesortcc question David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-08-03 09:04 +0200
                Re: SQL filesortcc question Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-08-03 00:19 -0700
                Re: SQL filesortcc question David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-08-03 13:55 +0200
                Re: SQL filesortcc question Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-08-03 07:03 -0700
                Re: SQL filesortcc question David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-08-03 16:53 +0200
                Re: SQL filesortcc question Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-09-06 09:19 -0700
                Re: SQL filesortcc question David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-09-06 21:20 +0200
                Re: SQL filesortcc question Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-09-05 14:07 -0700
                Re: SQL filesortcc question David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-09-06 12:24 +0200
                Re: SQL filesortcc question Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-09-06 13:49 +0100
                Re: SQL filesortcc question David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-09-06 15:41 +0200
                Re: SQL filesortcc question Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-09-07 07:24 -0700
                Re: SQL filesortcc question David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-09-07 17:04 +0200
                Re: SQL filesortcc question Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-08-02 06:48 -0700
                Re: SQL filesortcc question Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-08-04 08:00 -0700
                Re: SQL filesortcc question Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-08-04 08:52 -0700
                Re: SQL filesortcc question Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-09-05 11:56 -0700
                Re: SQL filesortcc question Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2015-08-04 23:45 -0400
                Re: SQL filesortcc question Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-08-05 08:45 -0700
                Re: SQL filesortcc question Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-09-05 12:00 -0700
                Re: SQL filesortcc question Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-08-01 13:17 -0700
                Re: SQL filesortcc question James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-08-01 16:11 -0400
                Re: SQL filesortcc question Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-08-01 14:00 -0700
                Re: SQL filesortcc question Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-08-02 10:40 +1200
                Re: SQL filesortcc question Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-08-01 16:20 -0700
                Re: SQL filesortcc question Rosario19 <Ros@invalid.invalid> - 2015-08-22 08:24 +0200
                Re: SQL filesortcc question Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-08-22 19:26 +1200
                Re: SQL filesortcc question Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-08-22 05:39 -0700
                Re: SQL filesortcc question Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-08-01 13:51 -0700
                Re: SQL filesortcc question Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-08-02 10:38 +1200
                Re: SQL filesortcc question Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-08-01 16:14 -0700
                Re: SQL filesortcc question David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-08-02 01:15 +0200
                Re: SQL filesortcc question Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-08-01 16:24 -0700
                Re: SQL filesortcc question David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-08-02 02:32 +0200
                Re: SQL filesortcc question Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-08-02 12:57 +1200
                Re: SQL filesortcc question Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-08-01 22:23 -0700
                Re: SQL filesortcc question Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-08-02 01:21 -0500
                Re: SQL filesortcc question David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-08-02 19:21 +0200
                Re: SQL filesortcc question Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-08-02 14:05 -0500
                Re: SQL filesortcc question Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-08-02 01:24 -0500
                Re: SQL filesortcc question Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-08-01 23:56 -0700
                Re: SQL filesortcc question raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-08-09 14:25 +0000
                Re: SQL filesortcc question Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-07-30 14:19 +1200
                Re: SQL filesortcc question Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-07-29 19:53 -0700
                Re: SQL filesortcc question Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-07-29 23:45 -0700
                Re: SQL filesortcc question Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-07-30 04:22 -0700
                Re: SQL filesortcc question Bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-07-30 13:13 +0100
                Re: SQL filesortcc question Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-07-30 13:27 +0100
                Re: SQL filesortcc question Bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-07-30 13:57 +0100
                Re: SQL filesortcc question Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-07-30 14:11 +0100
                Re: SQL filesortcc question Bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-07-30 14:39 +0100
                Re: SQL filesortcc question Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-07-30 15:05 +0100
                Re: SQL filesortcc question Bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-07-30 14:03 +0100
                Re: SQL filesortcc question James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-07-30 11:22 -0400
                Re: SQL filesortcc question Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-07-29 18:32 -0700
                Re: SQL filesortcc question Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-07-30 14:38 +1200
                Re: SQL filesortcc question Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-07-30 10:56 +0100
                Re: SQL filesortcc question Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-07-30 22:28 +1200
                Re: SQL filesortcc question Bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-07-30 10:57 +0100
                Re: SQL filesortcc question Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-08-03 08:02 -0700
                Re: SQL filesortcc question Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-08-03 08:33 -0700
                Re: SQL filesortcc question Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2015-08-03 20:50 -0400
                Re: SQL filesortcc question Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-08-04 04:52 -0700
                Re: SQL filesortcc question Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-08-04 06:08 -0700
                Re: SQL filesortcc question Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-08-04 14:20 +0100
                Re: SQL filesortcc question Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-08-04 06:45 -0700
                Re: SQL filesortcc question Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-09-05 12:15 -0700
                Re: SQL filesortcc question Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-08-03 19:09 +0100
                Re: SQL filesortcc question Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-08-04 06:09 -0700
                Re: SQL filesortcc question Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-08-04 14:40 +0100
                Re: SQL filesortcc question Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-09-05 13:24 -0700
                Re: SQL filesortcc question Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-09-05 21:51 +0100
                Re: SQL filesortcc question James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-09-05 17:16 -0400
                Re: SQL filesortcc question Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-09-05 19:59 -0700
                Re: SQL filesortcc question Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-09-06 07:51 +0100
                Re: SQL filesortcc question Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-09-06 17:32 -0700
            Re: SQL filesortcc question Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-07-25 10:04 -0700
        Re: SQL filesortcc question David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-07-21 13:23 +0200
          Re: SQL filesortcc question raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-07-22 15:14 +0000
          Re: SQL filesortcc question Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-07-25 15:25 -0700
            Re: SQL filesortcc question Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-07-26 11:31 +1200
              Re: SQL filesortcc question Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-07-25 17:10 -0700
                Re: SQL filesortcc question Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-07-26 13:29 +1200
                Re: SQL filesortcc question Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-07-25 23:51 -0700
                Re: SQL filesortcc question Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-07-26 20:24 +1200
                Re: SQL filesortcc question Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-07-26 03:02 -0700
                Re: SQL filesortcc question Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-07-27 09:22 +1200
                Re: SQL filesortcc question Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-07-26 15:04 -0700
                Re: SQL filesortcc question Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-07-27 10:32 +1200
                Re: SQL filesortcc question Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-07-26 16:49 -0700
                Re: SQL filesortcc question Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-07-27 21:46 +1200
                Re: SQL filesortcc question Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-07-27 04:53 -0700
                Re: SQL filesortcc question Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-07-26 14:58 -0700
                Re: SQL filesortcc question Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-07-26 15:15 -0700
      Re: SQL filesortcc question doctor@doctor.nl2k.ab.ca (The Doctor) - 2015-07-16 19:47 +0000
  Re: SQL filesortcc question Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-07-16 09:55 +1200

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