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Groups > comp.lang.java.programmer > #29426

Re: Java blunders

From Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid>
Newsgroups comp.lang.java.programmer
Subject Re: Java blunders
Date 2014-07-29 12:45 +0000
Organization A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID <lr8523$u7e$1@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References (11 earlier) <lr3gcr$aib$1@dont-email.me> <oqudncJQXNfN3EvOnZ2dnUVZ8sqdnZ2d@bt.com> <7yegqdunyocn$.1g7x8245ot44l$.dlg@40tude.net> <lr6lmn$lb2$1@dont-email.me> <53d786d6$0$2978$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl>

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On Tue, 29 Jul 2014 13:34:46 +0200, Silvio wrote:

> On 07/29/2014 01:17 AM, Martin Gregorie wrote:
>> On Mon, 28 Jul 2014 23:38:03 +0200, Joerg Meier wrote:
>>
>>> While I often wished we had that kind of operator overloading, my
>>> biggest issue with it is that it looks like it is reassigning ca (and
>>> the explicit syntax, "ca = ca + p;", is even worse), when it in fact
>>> doesn't. And that opens all kind of worm cans:
>>>
>> You're reading too much into it. IIRC Algol 68 had the += operator and
>> you might choose to overload either + or += to represent paying a
>> cheque into an account. It seemed to me that in this case overloading
>> += would read better than overloading + might.
>>
>>> - Can ca still be declared final ?
>>>
>> No - at least you couldn't in Algol 68. It wasn't really an OO
>> language. Although it had a lot of features that became integral parts
>> of the OO paradigm, it didn't any concept of a class or objects that
>> might contain both data and methods. A mode was quite similar to a C
>> struct, and code only existed as procedures and operators.
>>
>> If you take away the "ca =" part, does "ca + p" still do anything? Yes,
>> in exactly the same way that you can throw away the value returned by a
>> Java method or a C function.
>>
>> Could you have "ca+p;",
>>
>> Yes. It would do whatever you'd written the new operator overloading +
>> to do. If it was defined as op +(account,cheque):             it would
>> return nothing, while op +(account,cheque)int:          might return
>> the new balance and op +=(account,cheque)ref account: would return a
>> reference to the account.
>>
>> As I said: this was Algol 68, which is not an OO language though I
>> suspect that its operator overloading is very much in the spirit of the
>> idea that messages are passed between objects and the A68 compiler had
>> to do more or less the same when parsing an overloaded operator as the
>> Java compiler does when parsing an overloaded method.
>>
>>
>>
> Oh, the good old days. I used to love the tagged unions.
> 
> Algol 68 was the language with which I was taught how to program in
> 1985. Not the easiest introduction imaginable but professor CHA Koster
> made such a compelling effort that I saw it through.
> 
> He was on the original committee that defined the language in 1968. It's
> a shame he passed away last year.
>
Sad news.

Algol 68R, which was an implementation for ICL 1900 mainframes running 
George 3, was written at the Radar Research Establishment in Malvern, UK. 
It was one of the nicest compilation systems I've used anywhere. Compiler 
error reporting was clear and to the point and the compiler was fast. Run-
time performance was good too and the crash diagnostics were among the 
best I've ever seen: as well as showing more or less the same as a Java 
crash does, it also dumped all variables that were in scope when the 
crash happened (in appropriate formats) and then showed a trace-back of 
how you'd got to that point. As well as the procedure call stack it 
showed for and while loops (and how many iterations they'd run), 
conditionals (and which branch was taken) and gave source line numbers 
for everything as well.


-- 
martin@   | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org       |

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Java blunders Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2014-07-22 11:41 -0700
  Re: Java blunders Daniele Futtorovic <da.futt.news@laposte.net> - 2014-07-22 21:12 +0200
    Re: Java blunders Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-07-22 19:46 -0400
      Re: Java blunders Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2014-07-23 04:14 -0700
  Re: Java blunders Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2014-07-22 23:47 +0200
    Re: Java blunders Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2014-07-23 04:23 -0700
      Re: Java blunders Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2014-07-23 12:32 +0000
        Re: Java blunders Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2014-07-23 08:55 -0400
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        Re: Java blunders Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-07-23 19:53 -0400
          Re: Java blunders Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2014-07-23 18:49 -0700
      Re: Java blunders Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-07-23 19:52 -0400
  Re: Java blunders Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-07-22 19:44 -0400
    Re: Java blunders Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2014-07-23 04:27 -0700
      Re: Java blunders Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-07-23 19:55 -0400
        Re: Java blunders Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2014-07-23 18:53 -0700
          Re: Java blunders Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2014-07-24 11:24 +0200
            Re: Java blunders Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2014-07-25 06:34 -0700
          Re: Java blunders Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-07-24 19:31 -0400
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              Re: Java blunders Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2014-07-25 17:17 -0400
                Re: Java blunders Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2014-07-25 23:12 +0000
                Re: Java blunders Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2014-07-26 09:06 -0700
                Re: Java blunders Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2014-07-26 20:11 +0000
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                Re: Java blunders Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2014-07-27 18:28 +0000
                Re: Java blunders Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2014-07-27 14:46 -0400
                Re: Java blunders Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2014-07-27 21:18 +0000
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                Re: Java blunders Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2014-07-28 01:25 +0000
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                Re: Java blunders Mike Amling <mamling@chaff.us> - 2014-07-31 13:26 -0500
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                Re: Java blunders Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2014-07-28 12:52 +0000
                Re: Java blunders Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2014-07-28 23:38 +0200
                Re: Java blunders Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2014-07-28 23:17 +0000
                Re: Java blunders Silvio <silvio@internet.com> - 2014-07-29 13:34 +0200
                Re: Java blunders Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2014-07-29 12:45 +0000
                Re: Java blunders Silvio <silvio@internet.com> - 2014-07-29 17:10 +0200
                Re: Java blunders Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2014-07-29 16:29 +0000
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                Re: Java blunders Silvio <silvio@internet.com> - 2014-07-29 22:43 +0200
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  Re: Java blunders taqmcg@gmail.com - 2014-07-23 11:26 -0700
    Re: Java blunders Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2014-07-23 15:14 -0400
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  Re: Java blunders Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2014-07-23 20:48 -0700
    Re: Java blunders Silvio <silvio@internet.com> - 2014-07-24 11:56 +0200
      Re: Java blunders Silvio <silvio@internet.com> - 2014-07-24 16:07 +0200
        Re: Java blunders Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2014-07-25 13:38 -0700
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      Re: Java blunders Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2014-07-25 13:45 -0700
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