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Re: Java blunders

From "Chris Uppal" <chris.uppal@metagnostic.REMOVE-THIS.org>
Newsgroups comp.lang.java.programmer
References <jvbts91r2f9onj1e3dbr5lvqp70hmofkum@4ax.com> <a4b9a521-1f38-4fc0-b131-fda06e47af68@googlegroups.com> <lqpv9p$llh$1@dont-email.me> <38c5efcc-315c-4b8d-a478-89e352af7143@googlegroups.com>
Subject Re: Java blunders
Date 2014-07-25 13:22 +0100
Message-ID <gsydnS89eaSG0E_OnZ2dnUVZ7t2dnZ2d@bt.com> (permalink)

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taqmcg@gmail.com wrote:
> The bit that confuses me -- and I agree that Java is not the only place
> this happens -- is that everyone agrees that I/O is complex and
> difficult. And the first decision that seems to be made about it is that
> given this complex, difficult but critical element that all of our
> programs need, lets ensure that the only syntax that is available to
> address it is a method/function.  Maybe some of the complexity could be
> addressed more cleanly if we thought about I/O as fundamental element of
> what we are doing through the language design process rather than
> something to be bolted on as library (or libraries) at the end.

I'd like to turn this around and suggest that the problem is not that language 
designers "bolt-on" IO after the fact, but that the languages aren't expressive 
enough for that not to be a problem.  Personally I think (and it's a pretty 
widely shared view ASAICT) that it's a /good/ thing if IO is expressed as 
library code /written in/ the language rather than being hardwired into the 
language design.  However, if the language can't directly express IO in some 
transparent way, then that's an indication that the language itself is not 
expressive enough, and that -- presumably -- other libraries (including 
different approaches to IO) will also suffer from the same lack of 
expressiveness.

Java is -- of the mainstream or semi-mainstream languages I know even a little 
about -- the least expressive[*].  That may improve as more "stuff" gets hacked 
into the language design, but there's little sign of it yet.

But, OTOH...

> To illustrate this (and I'm designing this as I write it, trying to
> illustrate how we could integrate I/O within the language differently
> that we do now). suppose that we had the idea that all variables (both
> primitives and objects) in Java were emitters and receivers -- a basic
> property for all things.

If you don't already know Icon (dead as a language, AFAICT, but very much alive 
as a /design/ for a language) you might find that interesting.  In Icon all 
value-producers conceptually produce a /stream/ of values, which gives it a 
unique(-sh[**]) flavour for several not-obviously-connected problems from IO to 
search.  It's not quite the same as your proposal, but anyone who (like me) 
finds virtue in yours should find Icon interesting too.

    -- chris

[*]  Fortran and Cobol are also contenders for the title, I assume, but I don't 
know anything like enough about their modern incarnations to be sure.

[**] Not so unique for Prolog users, but Icon is a traditional imperative 
language.

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Java blunders Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2014-07-22 11:41 -0700
  Re: Java blunders Daniele Futtorovic <da.futt.news@laposte.net> - 2014-07-22 21:12 +0200
    Re: Java blunders Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-07-22 19:46 -0400
      Re: Java blunders Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2014-07-23 04:14 -0700
  Re: Java blunders Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2014-07-22 23:47 +0200
    Re: Java blunders Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2014-07-23 04:23 -0700
      Re: Java blunders Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2014-07-23 12:32 +0000
        Re: Java blunders Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2014-07-23 08:55 -0400
          Re: Java blunders Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2014-07-23 06:21 -0700
        Re: Java blunders Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-07-23 19:53 -0400
          Re: Java blunders Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2014-07-23 18:49 -0700
      Re: Java blunders Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-07-23 19:52 -0400
  Re: Java blunders Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-07-22 19:44 -0400
    Re: Java blunders Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2014-07-23 04:27 -0700
      Re: Java blunders Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-07-23 19:55 -0400
        Re: Java blunders Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2014-07-23 18:53 -0700
          Re: Java blunders Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2014-07-24 11:24 +0200
            Re: Java blunders Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2014-07-25 06:34 -0700
          Re: Java blunders Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-07-24 19:31 -0400
            Re: Java blunders Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2014-07-25 13:22 -0700
              Re: Java blunders Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2014-07-25 17:17 -0400
                Re: Java blunders Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2014-07-25 23:12 +0000
                Re: Java blunders Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2014-07-26 09:06 -0700
                Re: Java blunders Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2014-07-26 20:11 +0000
                Re: Java blunders Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2014-07-26 17:27 -0400
                Re: Java blunders Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2014-07-27 10:49 -0700
                Re: Java blunders Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2014-07-27 10:10 -0700
                Re: Java blunders Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2014-07-28 13:53 -0700
                Re: Java blunders Stuart <DerTopper@web.de> - 2014-07-30 08:05 +0200
                Re: Java blunders Sebastian <news@seyweiler.dyndns.org> - 2014-07-30 11:12 +0200
                Re: Java blunders Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2014-07-27 10:13 -0700
                Re: Java blunders Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2014-07-27 18:28 +0000
                Re: Java blunders Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2014-07-27 14:46 -0400
                Re: Java blunders Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2014-07-27 21:18 +0000
                Re: Java blunders Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2014-07-27 18:10 -0400
                Re: Java blunders Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2014-07-28 01:25 +0000
                Re: Java blunders Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2014-07-28 08:02 -0400
                Re: Java blunders Mike Amling <mamling@chaff.us> - 2014-07-31 13:26 -0500
                Re: Java blunders Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2014-07-31 14:48 -0400
                Re: Java blunders "Chris Uppal" <chris.uppal@metagnostic.REMOVE-THIS.org> - 2014-07-28 13:22 +0100
                Re: Java blunders Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2014-07-28 12:52 +0000
                Re: Java blunders Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2014-07-28 23:38 +0200
                Re: Java blunders Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2014-07-28 23:17 +0000
                Re: Java blunders Silvio <silvio@internet.com> - 2014-07-29 13:34 +0200
                Re: Java blunders Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2014-07-29 12:45 +0000
                Re: Java blunders Silvio <silvio@internet.com> - 2014-07-29 17:10 +0200
                Re: Java blunders Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2014-07-29 16:29 +0000
                Re: Java blunders lipska the kat <lipskathekat@example.com> - 2014-07-29 20:15 +0100
                Re: Java blunders Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2014-07-29 22:02 +0000
                Re: Java blunders Silvio <silvio@internet.com> - 2014-07-29 22:43 +0200
                Re: Java blunders Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2014-07-29 22:10 +0000
                Re: Java blunders Joshua Cranmer 🐧 <Pidgeot18@verizon.invalid> - 2014-07-27 19:18 -0500
                Re: Java blunders Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2014-07-28 13:54 -0700
                Re: Java blunders Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-07-31 23:07 -0400
                Re: Java blunders James Hostick <james.hostick@gmail.com> - 2014-08-01 22:10 -0700
            Re: Java blunders Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2014-07-26 08:31 -0700
              Re: Java blunders Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2014-07-26 21:04 +0000
                Re: Java blunders Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2014-07-27 10:51 -0700
                Re: Java blunders Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2014-07-28 08:50 -0700
                Re: Java blunders Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2014-07-28 23:42 +0200
              Re: Java blunders Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-07-31 23:04 -0400
          Re: Java blunders Josip Almasi <joe@vrspace.org> - 2014-07-28 22:23 +0200
            Re: Java blunders Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2014-07-28 16:39 -0400
              Re: Java blunders Josip Almasi <joe@vrspace.org> - 2014-07-29 00:11 +0200
              Re: Java blunders Jukka Lahtinen <jtfjdehf@hotmail.com.invalid> - 2014-07-30 12:07 +0300
                Re: Java blunders Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2014-07-30 08:05 -0400
    Re: Java blunders Wanja Gayk <brixomatic@yahoo.com> - 2014-07-25 01:34 +0200
      Re: Java blunders Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-07-24 19:43 -0400
  Re: Java blunders Joshua Cranmer 🐧 <Pidgeot18@verizon.invalid> - 2014-07-22 21:02 -0500
    Re: Java blunders Leif Roar Moldskred <leifm@huldreskog.lan> - 2014-07-23 02:01 -0500
      Re: Java blunders Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2014-07-23 18:58 -0700
      Re: Java blunders thinbluernime <thinbluernime3@gmail.com> - 2014-07-25 03:55 +0000
        Re: Java blunders Leif Roar Moldskred <leifm@huldreskog.lan> - 2014-07-25 00:32 -0500
          Re: Java blunders thinbluernime <thinbluernime3@gmail.com> - 2014-07-26 07:28 +0000
            Re: Java blunders "Gavino" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2014-07-26 19:43 +0200
        Re: Java blunders Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2014-07-25 06:36 -0700
          Re: Java blunders "Chris Uppal" <chris.uppal@metagnostic.REMOVE-THIS.org> - 2014-07-25 15:47 +0100
            Re: Java blunders David Postill <david.postill@gmail.com> - 2014-07-25 18:29 +0200
            Re: Java blunders Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2014-07-26 09:27 -0700
        Re: Java blunders Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2014-07-25 06:37 -0700
    Re: Java blunders Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2014-07-23 13:17 +0200
      Re: Java blunders Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2014-07-23 06:27 -0700
    Re: Java blunders Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2014-07-23 04:44 -0700
      Re: Java blunders Silvio <silvio@internet.com> - 2014-07-23 16:23 +0200
        Re: Java blunders Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2014-07-23 12:02 -0400
          Re: Java blunders Silvio <silvio@internet.com> - 2014-07-24 11:37 +0200
            Re: Java blunders Josip Almasi <joe@vrspace.org> - 2014-07-28 22:37 +0200
        Re: Java blunders Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2014-07-23 09:33 -0700
          Re: Java blunders thinbluernime <thinbluernime3@gmail.com> - 2014-07-25 03:57 +0000
        Re: Java blunders Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-07-23 21:38 -0400
          Re: Java blunders Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2014-07-23 18:59 -0700
            Re: Java blunders Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2014-07-24 07:33 +0000
          Re: Java blunders Silvio <silvio@internet.com> - 2014-07-24 11:47 +0200
            Re: Java blunders Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-07-24 19:34 -0400
              Re: Java blunders Silvio <silvio@internet.com> - 2014-07-25 08:48 +0200
                Re: Java blunders Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2014-07-25 08:07 -0400
                Re: Java blunders "Chris Uppal" <chris.uppal@metagnostic.REMOVE-THIS.org> - 2014-07-25 13:54 +0100
                Re: Java blunders Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-07-31 22:53 -0400
            Re: Java blunders Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2014-07-25 07:04 -0700
        Re: Java blunders Josip Almasi <joe@vrspace.org> - 2014-07-28 22:01 +0200
      Re: Java blunders Josip Almasi <joe@vrspace.org> - 2014-07-28 21:56 +0200
    Re: Java blunders Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2014-07-23 06:28 -0700
      Re: Java blunders Joshua Cranmer 🐧 <Pidgeot18@verizon.invalid> - 2014-07-23 08:33 -0500
    Re: Java blunders Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-07-23 21:34 -0400
      Re: Java blunders Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2014-07-23 19:06 -0700
      Re: Java blunders Joshua Cranmer 🐧 <Pidgeot18@verizon.invalid> - 2014-07-23 22:11 -0500
        Re: Java blunders Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2014-07-24 07:36 +0000
          Re: Java blunders Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-07-24 19:39 -0400
            Re: Java blunders "Chris Uppal" <chris.uppal@metagnostic.REMOVE-THIS.org> - 2014-07-25 13:40 +0100
        Re: Java blunders Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-07-24 19:38 -0400
          Re: Java blunders Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2014-07-25 13:30 -0700
  Re: Java blunders taqmcg@gmail.com - 2014-07-23 11:26 -0700
    Re: Java blunders Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2014-07-23 15:14 -0400
      Re: Java blunders thinbluernime <thinbluernime3@gmail.com> - 2014-07-25 04:07 +0000
        Re: Java blunders Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2014-07-25 08:35 -0400
          Re: Java blunders Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2014-07-26 09:41 -0700
        Re: Java blunders Wanja Gayk <brixomatic@yahoo.com> - 2014-08-03 16:41 +0200
          Re: Java blunders Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2014-08-03 11:31 -0400
    Re: Java blunders Joshua Cranmer 🐧 <Pidgeot18@verizon.invalid> - 2014-07-23 22:41 -0500
      Re: Java blunders taqmcg@gmail.com - 2014-07-24 10:09 -0700
        Re: Java blunders "Chris Uppal" <chris.uppal@metagnostic.REMOVE-THIS.org> - 2014-07-25 13:22 +0100
        Re: Java blunders Joshua Cranmer 🐧 <Pidgeot18@verizon.invalid> - 2014-07-25 20:34 -0500
          Re: Java blunders "Chris Uppal" <chris.uppal@metagnostic.REMOVE-THIS.org> - 2014-07-28 13:33 +0100
            Re: Java blunders Joshua Cranmer 🐧 <Pidgeot18@verizon.invalid> - 2014-07-28 08:35 -0500
        Re: Java blunders Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2014-07-26 09:44 -0700
          Re: Java blunders Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2014-07-26 23:36 +0000
  Re: Java blunders Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2014-07-23 20:48 -0700
    Re: Java blunders Silvio <silvio@internet.com> - 2014-07-24 11:56 +0200
      Re: Java blunders Silvio <silvio@internet.com> - 2014-07-24 16:07 +0200
        Re: Java blunders Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2014-07-25 13:38 -0700
          Re: Java blunders Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2014-07-26 10:02 -0700
    Re: Java blunders Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-07-24 19:29 -0400
      Re: Java blunders Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2014-07-25 13:45 -0700
    Re: Java blunders Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2014-07-26 10:53 -0700
  Re: Java blunders Wanja Gayk <brixomatic@yahoo.com> - 2014-07-25 01:28 +0200
  Re: Java blunders "Chris Uppal" <chris.uppal@metagnostic.REMOVE-THIS.org> - 2014-07-25 14:16 +0100
  Re: Java blunders Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2014-07-25 17:39 +0200
  Re: Java blunders Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2014-07-26 16:21 -0700
  Re: Java blunders Josip Almasi <joe@vrspace.org> - 2014-07-28 23:59 +0200
    Re: Java blunders Josip Almasi <joe@vrspace.org> - 2014-07-29 00:41 +0200
      Re: Java blunders Josip Almasi <joe@vrspace.org> - 2014-07-29 01:54 +0200
    Re: Java blunders Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-07-31 22:38 -0400
    Re: Java blunders Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-07-31 22:39 -0400
  Re: Java blunders w.tom.adams@gmail.com - 2014-07-30 07:57 -0700
    Re: Java blunders Joshua Cranmer 🐧 <Pidgeot18@verizon.invalid> - 2014-07-30 10:22 -0500

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