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| From | Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> |
|---|---|
| Newsgroups | comp.lang.c |
| Subject | Re: for your languages |
| Date | 2011-06-06 09:11 -0700 |
| Organization | None to speak of |
| Message-ID | <lnpqmrey7w.fsf@nuthaus.mib.org> (permalink) |
| References | (16 earlier) <chine.bleu-2B3C76.18571305062011@news.eternal-september.org> <lny61ffx4o.fsf@nuthaus.mib.org> <chine.bleu-09FD7C.20581505062011@news.eternal-september.org> <lntyc3fttj.fsf@nuthaus.mib.org> <chine.bleu-358AA5.22050705062011@news.eternal-september.org> |
China Blue Angels <chine.bleu@yahoo.com> writes:
> In article <lntyc3fttj.fsf@nuthaus.mib.org>, Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org>
> wrote:
>> China Blue Angels <chine.bleu@yahoo.com> writes:
>> > In article <lny61ffx4o.fsf@nuthaus.mib.org>, Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org>
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> >> None of which, as far as I can tell, suggests that an assembler's
>> >> output isn't entirely determined by its input.
>> >
>> > All non-stochastic programmes are injective or bijective computable
>> > functions.
>>
>> That's nice.
>
> Call me when you give up your fundamentalism.
Huh??
Your use of the word "fundamentalism" indicates that you have little
or no idea what I'm actually talking about. I don't *think* I've
been that unclear, but perhaps I have. I'll try to explain it again.
In my experience (which is long but by no means universal), an
"assembler" or "macro assembler" is a program that translates
assembly language input into a sequence of machine code instructions,
where the output is entirely determined by the input. That's a
major difference between an assembly language and a high-level
compiled language, and between an assembler and a compiler.
Rui Maciel claims that, for all modern macro assemblers he knows
about, the output is *not* entirely determined by the input, and
that there is no clear line between assemblers and compilers.
In particular, he claims that C is essentially a higher-level
macro assembly language. (I think that's an accurate summary;
he can certainly correct me if it isn't.)
Since his claims are at odds with my own experience, I've asked
him to clarify, and particularly to provide concrete examples of
what he's talking about. He has not yet done so.
You've provided examples of macro assemblers whose macro facility is
clearly more powerful than the C preprocessor, which is interesting,
but doesn't really address the issue. They're still expanding
macros, which means (as I understand it) that the output is still
strictly determined by the input.
My earlier question:
Is the macro facility provided by a macro-assembly language more
powerful than the macro facility provided by C?
might have confused the issue a bit. A macro facility can be
much more powerful than the C preprocessor while still being
deterministic.
I'm not aware of any "fundamentalism" in what I've written.
Perhaps that word does not mean what you think it means.
--
Keith Thompson (The_Other_Keith) kst-u@mib.org <http://www.ghoti.net/~kst>
Nokia
"We must do something. This is something. Therefore, we must do this."
-- Antony Jay and Jonathan Lynn, "Yes Minister"
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for your languages "io_x" <a@b.c.invalid> - 2011-05-28 09:08 +0200
Re: for your languages BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2011-05-28 02:48 -0700
Re: for your languages "io_x" <a@b.c.invalid> - 2011-05-29 17:51 +0200
Re: for your languages Nick Keighley <nick_keighley_nospam@hotmail.com> - 2011-06-16 15:39 -0700
Re: for your languages "io_x" <a@b.c.invalid> - 2011-06-17 09:55 +0200
Re: for your languages Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2011-06-19 22:21 -0500
Re: for your languages "io_x" <a@b.c.invalid> - 2011-06-20 09:51 +0200
Re: for your languages "io_x" <a@b.c.invalid> - 2011-06-20 12:06 +0200
Re: for your languages Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2011-06-20 10:08 -0500
Re: for your languages "io_x" <a@b.c.invalid> - 2011-07-08 20:06 +0200
Re: for your languages Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2011-05-28 11:06 +0100
Re: for your languages BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2011-05-28 03:38 -0700
Re: for your languages "BartC" <bc@freeuk.com> - 2011-05-28 16:01 +0100
Re: for your languages Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2011-05-28 19:36 +0100
Re: for your languages "BartC" <bc@freeuk.com> - 2011-05-28 21:18 +0100
Re: for your languages Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2011-05-29 12:33 +0100
Re: for your languages James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2011-05-29 08:31 -0400
Re: for your languages China Blue Angels <chine.bleu@yahoo.com> - 2011-05-29 05:37 -0700
Re: for your languages James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2011-05-29 09:09 -0400
Re: for your languages China Blue Angels <chine.bleu@yahoo.com> - 2011-05-29 07:00 -0700
Re: for your languages "BartC" <bc@freeuk.com> - 2011-05-29 16:52 +0100
Re: for your languages Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2011-05-31 02:18 +0100
Re: for your languages James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2011-05-30 22:21 -0400
Re: for your languages China Blue Angels <chine.bleu@yahoo.com> - 2011-05-30 20:39 -0700
Re: for your languages Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2011-05-29 12:44 -0700
Re: for your languages Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2011-05-31 02:12 +0100
Re: for your languages Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2011-05-31 10:44 -0700
Re: for your languages Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2011-05-31 02:05 +0100
Re: for your languages Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2011-05-29 12:34 -0700
Re: for your languages Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2011-05-31 02:00 +0100
Re: for your languages "BartC" <bc@freeuk.com> - 2011-05-31 13:10 +0100
Re: for your languages China Blue Angels <chine.bleu@yahoo.com> - 2011-05-31 06:20 -0700
Re: for your languages Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2011-05-31 11:53 -0700
Re: for your languages Angel <angel+news@spamcop.net> - 2011-05-31 12:23 +0000
Re: for your languages Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2011-05-31 17:46 +0100
Re: for your languages Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-05-31 17:05 +0000
Re: for your languages Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2011-06-01 15:39 +0100
Re: for your languages Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-06-01 17:53 +0000
Re: for your languages Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2011-06-02 22:18 +0100
Re: for your languages Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-06-03 00:44 +0000
Re: for your languages Angel <angel+news@spamcop.net> - 2011-05-31 19:04 +0000
Re: for your languages Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2011-06-01 15:44 +0100
Re: for your languages Angel <angel+news@spamcop.net> - 2011-06-01 19:40 +0000
Re: for your languages Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2011-06-02 21:58 +0100
Re: for your languages Angel <angel+news@spamcop.net> - 2011-06-02 23:09 +0000
Re: for your languages Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2011-06-02 21:28 -0500
Re: for your languages Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2011-05-31 10:41 -0700
Re: for your languages Uncle Steve <stevet810@gmail.com> - 2011-05-28 11:15 -0400
Re: for your languages Lorenzo Villari <vlllnz@tiscali.it> - 2011-05-28 20:05 +0200
Re: for your languages Uncle Steve <stevet810@gmail.com> - 2011-05-28 14:16 -0400
Re: for your languages Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2011-05-28 12:07 -0700
Re: for your languages Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2011-05-29 12:19 +0100
Re: for your languages James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2011-05-29 08:59 -0400
Re: for your languages Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2011-05-31 01:50 +0100
Re: for your languages Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-05-29 20:36 +0000
Re: for your languages Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2011-05-31 00:28 +0100
Re: for your languages Michael Press <rubrum@pacbell.net> - 2011-05-30 17:21 -0700
Re: for your languages Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2011-05-31 01:58 +0100
Re: for your languages Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-05-31 01:27 +0000
Re: for your languages Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2011-05-31 10:37 -0700
Re: for your languages Michael Press <rubrum@pacbell.net> - 2011-05-31 18:34 -0700
Re: for your languages Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2011-06-01 15:06 +0100
Re: for your languages James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2011-06-01 10:30 -0400
Re: for your languages Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2011-06-02 21:36 +0100
Re: for your languages James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2011-06-02 22:06 -0400
Re: for your languages Michael Press <rubrum@pacbell.net> - 2011-06-01 18:19 -0700
Re: for your languages Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2011-06-02 01:06 -0500
Re: for your languages Michael Press <rubrum@pacbell.net> - 2011-06-03 12:02 -0700
Re: for your languages Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2011-06-02 21:34 +0100
Re: for your languages Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2011-06-02 15:53 -0700
Re: for your languages Michael Press <rubrum@pacbell.net> - 2011-06-03 12:24 -0700
Re: for your languages Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-05-31 01:10 +0000
Re: for your languages Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2011-05-31 10:34 -0700
Re: for your languages Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2011-06-01 14:58 +0100
Re: for your languages Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2011-06-02 21:18 +0100
Re: for your languages Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2011-06-02 13:40 -0700
Re: for your languages Billy Mays <noway@nohow.com> - 2011-06-02 17:31 -0400
Re: for your languages Michael Press <rubrum@pacbell.net> - 2011-06-03 10:39 -0700
Re: for your languages James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2011-06-02 22:19 -0400
Re: for your languages China Blue Angels <chine.bleu@yahoo.com> - 2011-06-02 19:36 -0700
Re: for your languages Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2011-06-03 08:44 -0700
Re: for your languages Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2011-06-04 14:41 +0100
Re: for your languages Angel <angel+news@spamcop.net> - 2011-06-04 16:31 +0000
Re: for your languages Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2011-06-04 09:51 -0700
Re: for your languages Angel <angel+news@spamcop.net> - 2011-06-05 00:05 +0000
Re: for your languages China Blue Angels <chine.bleu@yahoo.com> - 2011-06-04 18:31 -0700
Re: for your languages "Kleuskes & Moos" <kleuske@xs4all.nl> - 2011-06-04 10:02 -0700
Re: for your languages cri@tiac.net (Richard Harter) - 2011-06-04 22:10 +0000
Re: for your languages China Blue Angels <chine.bleu@yahoo.com> - 2011-06-04 18:26 -0700
Re: for your languages Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2011-06-05 13:40 +0100
Re: for your languages Angel <angel+news@spamcop.net> - 2011-06-05 15:47 +0000
Re: for your languages "Kleuskes & Moos" <kleuske@xs4all.nl> - 2011-06-05 10:16 -0700
Re: for your languages "Kleuskes & Moos" <kleuske@xs4all.nl> - 2011-06-05 10:30 -0700
Re: for your languages Heikki Kallasjoki <see@end.of.message.invalid> - 2011-06-05 17:38 +0000
Re: for your languages "Kleuskes & Moos" <kleuske@xs4all.nl> - 2011-06-05 10:49 -0700
Re: for your languages Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2011-06-04 09:50 -0700
Re: for your languages Michael Press <rubrum@pacbell.net> - 2011-06-04 13:23 -0700
Re: for your languages Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2011-06-05 12:32 +0100
Re: for your languages "Kleuskes & Moos" <kleuske@xs4all.nl> - 2011-06-05 07:15 -0700
Re: for your languages "io_x" <a@b.c.invalid> - 2011-06-06 18:18 +0200
Re: for your languages "Kleuskes & Moos" <kleuske@xs4all.nl> - 2011-06-06 11:40 -0700
Re: for your languages "io_x" <a@b.c.invalid> - 2011-06-07 16:57 +0200
Re: for your languages Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2011-06-07 08:36 -0700
Re: for your languages "io_x" <a@b.c.invalid> - 2011-06-07 18:19 +0200
Re: for your languages "io_x" <a@b.c.invalid> - 2011-06-07 18:32 +0200
Re: for your languages Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2011-06-05 12:33 -0700
Re: for your languages China Blue Angels <chine.bleu@yahoo.com> - 2011-06-05 13:08 -0700
Re: for your languages Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2011-06-05 13:54 -0700
Re: for your languages China Blue Angels <chine.bleu@yahoo.com> - 2011-06-05 18:57 -0700
Re: for your languages Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2011-06-05 20:37 -0700
Re: for your languages China Blue Angels <chine.bleu@yahoo.com> - 2011-06-05 20:58 -0700
Re: for your languages Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2011-06-05 21:49 -0700
Re: for your languages China Blue Angels <chine.bleu@yahoo.com> - 2011-06-05 22:05 -0700
Re: for your languages Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2011-06-06 09:11 -0700
Re: for your languages Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2011-06-16 13:00 -0700
Re: for your languages Michael Press <rubrum@pacbell.net> - 2011-06-06 02:04 -0700
Re: for your languages "BartC" <bc@freeuk.com> - 2011-06-06 10:21 +0100
Re: for your languages "BartC" <bc@freeuk.com> - 2011-06-05 22:47 +0100
Re: for your languages China Blue Angels <chine.bleu@yahoo.com> - 2011-06-05 18:25 -0700
Re: for your languages Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2011-06-06 13:41 +1200
Re: for your languages "BartC" <bc@freeuk.com> - 2011-06-06 10:06 +0100
Re: for your languages Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-06-06 15:39 +0000
Re: for your languages Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-06-06 15:39 +0000
Re: for your languages Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2011-05-31 00:44 +0100
Re: for your languages Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2011-05-31 18:09 +0100
Re: for your languages Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2011-05-31 12:00 -0700
Re: for your languages Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2011-06-01 15:33 +0100
Re: for your languages Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2011-06-01 09:07 -0700
Re: for your languages Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2011-06-01 10:12 -0700
Re: for your languages BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2011-06-01 12:45 -0700
Re: for your languages "BartC" <bc@freeuk.com> - 2011-06-03 15:41 +0100
Re: for your languages Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2011-06-05 13:30 +0100
Re: for your languages Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-06-06 15:39 +0000
Re: for your languages "Kleuskes & Moos" <kleuske@xs4all.nl> - 2011-05-28 03:34 -0700
Re: for your languages "io_x" <a@b.c.invalid> - 2011-05-29 08:42 +0200
Re: for your languages Anders Wegge Keller <wegge@wegge.dk> - 2011-05-29 01:00 +0200
Re: for your languages Angel <angel+news@spamcop.net> - 2011-05-28 23:49 +0000
Re: for your languages Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2011-05-28 18:42 -0700
Re: for your languages Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2011-05-28 18:42 -0700
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