Re: Comparing phase of physically distant signals

From	Don Y <this@isnotme.com>
Newsgroups	comp.arch.embedded, sci.electronics.design, comp.realtime
Subject	Re: Comparing phase of physically distant signals
Date	2013-08-05 14:53 -0700
Organization	Aioe.org NNTP Server
Message-ID	<ktp6t8$sec$1@speranza.aioe.org> (permalink)
References	(1 earlier) <b64l99Fbo0nU1@mid.individual.net> <ktjkf9$qe2$1@speranza.aioe.org> <b654s9Ff331U1@mid.individual.net> <ktkb69$eja$1@speranza.aioe.org> <b67fdjFu2ksU1@mid.individual.net>

Cross-posted to 3 groups.

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Hi Joerg,

Tooth settled down, yet?

>>>> You still don't know what the difference in the propagation
>>>> (through air) from each transceiver.
>>>
>>> With calibrated radios that's a piece of cake to find out. Pulse-echo.
>>> Or let the whole link oscillate.
>>
>> With calibrate network interconnects, the problem wouldn't exist!  :>
>> I'm trying to reduce the complexity of the measurement (verification?)
>> system to *a* device -- preferably something non-esoteric (so folks
>> don't have to buy a special piece of gear to verify proper operation
>> and diagnose problems).
>
> The interconnects would calibrate themselves during the test. It doesn't
> matter whether it's a radio link or a wired link.

You'd have to locate a piece of kit at each end of each link.
I.e., three devices (assuming a common reference point) to
test two links.  (Or, hope nothing changes in the minutes
or fractional hours that it takes you to redeploy for the
"other" link)

[E.g., the timing protocol updates itself at ~1Hz just to deal
with things like drift in the local oscillator]

>>>> I.e., if the distance to device 1 is A and the distance to device 2
>>>> is B, then there will be a difference between the signals arriving
>>>> that corresponds to the difference between A and B.  Even after you
>>>> compensate for any differences in the radios themselves.
>>>>
>>>> [The same is true with a single radio at device 1 "received" at
>>>> device 2 -- how much time did the RF signal take to get to device
>>>> 2 cuz it's arrival will occur after device 2's notion of the
>>>> device 1 event with which it is intended to correlate.]
>>>>
>>>> That's the appeal between "two equal lengths of wire" -- the
>>>> delay through each can be made "identical".
>>>
>>> But radio can measure them. How much precision do you need?
>>
>> As I said (elsewhere), I can currently verify performance at the
>> ~100-200ns level "with a scope".  [I am trying to improve that
>> by an order of magnitude.]  But, that's with stuff sitting on
>> a bench, within arm's reach (physically if not electrically).
>>
>> So, I need a (external) measurement system that gives me at least
>> that level of performance.  Without necessitating developing
>> yet another gizmo.
>
> I am afraid you will have to develop a gizmo. Because there ain't enough
> of a market for what you are trying to do and I doubt there is
> off-the-shelf stuff.

That's what I've feared.  Once you start having to support "test kit"
your TCO goes up, fast!  ("authorized service personnel", etc.)

Part of the appeal of legacy devices (60's) was that a "tech"
could troubleshoot problems with common bits of test equipment.
E.g., the original ECU's could be troubleshot (?) with a VOM...
(no longer true though that market is large enough that OBD
tools are relatively inexpensive)

> Except for very expensive test equipment that can
> probably be programmed to do this job (the stuff that costs as much as a
> decent car).
>
>> [E.g., the 'scope approach is great:  set timebase accordingly;
>> trigger off pulse from device 1; monitor pulse from device 2; count
>> graduations on the reticule!  This is something that any tech
>> should be able to relate to...]
>
> But you need a link to each unit.

Yes.  And, relies on a *wired* link (or equivalent hooks in a wireless
implementation)

> And this is also easy if a scope
> approach is acceptable:
>
> a. Provide a full-duplex radio link to each unit, meaning two different
> frequencies each. Can purchased. Send tone burst out, measure phase
> difference when it comes back.
>
> b. Do the same with unit B.

This has to happen "nearly coincident" with "a)." to be able to
ignore short term variations in the signals.  E.g., if you
were troubleshooting an analog PLL, you wouldn't measure the
phase of the input signal against some "reference"; then, some
seconds later, measure the phase of the synthesized signal against
that same reference.  Rather, you would measure the synthesized
signal against the input signal "directly" so the measurements
appear to be concurrent.

> c. Listen for timer tick and measure delta.

Also coincident with a & b.  I.e., you want to deploy to pairs
of radios and this "tick measurement" device to take/watch
an instantaneous measurement free of jitter, and short term
uncertainty, etc.

I'm not claiming it can't be done.  Rather, I'm trying to show
the height at which it sets the bar for a "generic technician".

It may turn out that this becomes a specialized diagnostic
procedure.  I would just like to avoid that, where possible,
as it makes such a system "less ubiquitous" in practical
terms.

(Alternatively, *guarantee* that the system always knows when
things are not in sync and have *it* report this problem)

> d. Subtract difference found in steps a and b.
> You might want to take a look at Daqarta. I found it to be very precise
> in measurement precision when it comes to phase delays:
>
> http://daqarta.com/dw_0o0p.htm
>
> Not sure how far down in precision this app would go but it'll even give
> you a histogram of timing errors:
>
> http://daqarta.com/dw_psth.htm
>
> The author is very responsive and knowledgeable when it comes to
> specialty applications you want to pursue. Speaking from experience here.

At 256KHz sample rates, I think it is probably too slow to get the
sort of resolution I would need (I'll examine the site more carefully
to see if there is some "extended precision" scheme that could be
employed)

--don

Thread

Comparing phase of physically distant signals Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-08-03 00:45 -0700
  Re: Comparing phase of physically distant signals Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> - 2013-08-03 07:51 +0000
  Re: Comparing phase of physically distant signals Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2013-08-03 09:58 +0100
    Re: Comparing phase of physically distant signals upsidedown@downunder.com - 2013-08-03 13:21 +0300
      Re: Comparing phase of physically distant signals Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2013-08-03 12:16 +0100
      Re: Comparing phase of physically distant signals Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-08-03 11:56 -0700
        Re: Comparing phase of physically distant signals Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2013-08-03 20:17 +0100
          Re: Comparing phase of physically distant signals Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-08-03 13:41 -0700
            Re: Comparing phase of physically distant signals Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2013-08-03 22:46 +0100
              Re: Comparing phase of physically distant signals Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-08-03 14:57 -0700
                Re: Comparing phase of physically distant signals Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2013-08-03 23:09 +0100
    Re: Comparing phase of physically distant signals upsidedown@downunder.com - 2013-08-03 13:58 +0300
      Re: Comparing phase of physically distant signals Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2013-08-03 12:30 +0100
    Re: Comparing phase of physically distant signals upsidedown@downunder.com - 2013-08-03 16:08 +0300
      Re: Comparing phase of physically distant signals Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2013-08-03 14:22 +0100
        Re: Comparing phase of physically distant signals upsidedown@downunder.com - 2013-08-03 16:38 +0300
          Re: Comparing phase of physically distant signals Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-08-03 10:46 -0700
      Re: Comparing phase of physically distant signals Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-08-03 10:40 -0700
        Re: Comparing phase of physically distant signals Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2013-08-03 20:04 +0100
        Re: Comparing phase of physically distant signals Hans-Bernhard Bröker <HBBroeker@t-online.de> - 2013-08-04 15:55 +0200
          Re: Comparing phase of physically distant signals upsidedown@downunder.com - 2013-08-04 19:42 +0300
            Re: Comparing phase of physically distant signals Hans-Bernhard Bröker <HBBroeker@t-online.de> - 2013-08-04 21:08 +0200
              Re: Comparing phase of physically distant signals upsidedown@downunder.com - 2013-08-05 15:28 +0300
                Re: Comparing phase of physically distant signals Hans-Bernhard Bröker <HBBroeker@t-online.de> - 2013-08-05 22:17 +0200
                Re: Comparing phase of physically distant signals Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2013-08-05 23:20 -0400
    Re: Comparing phase of physically distant signals Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2013-08-03 14:26 +0100
    Re: Comparing phase of physically distant signals George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2013-08-03 14:47 -0400
  Re: Comparing phase of physically distant signals Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-08-03 08:17 -0700
    Re: Comparing phase of physically distant signals Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-08-03 12:08 -0700
      Re: Comparing phase of physically distant signals Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2013-08-03 20:37 +0100
        Re: Comparing phase of physically distant signals Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-08-03 12:57 -0700
          Re: Comparing phase of physically distant signals Hans-Bernhard Bröker <HBBroeker@t-online.de> - 2013-08-04 15:58 +0200
      Re: Comparing phase of physically distant signals Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-08-03 12:44 -0700
        Re: Comparing phase of physically distant signals Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-08-03 18:36 -0700
          Re: Comparing phase of physically distant signals Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-08-04 09:56 -0700
            Re: Comparing phase of physically distant signals Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-08-05 14:53 -0700
              Re: Comparing phase of physically distant signals Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-08-05 15:38 -0700
                Re: Comparing phase of physically distant signals Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-08-07 01:25 -0700
                Re: Comparing phase of physically distant signals Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-08-07 08:06 -0700
                Re: Comparing phase of physically distant signals Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-08-07 09:21 -0700
  Re: Comparing phase of physically distant signals josephkk <joseph_barrett@sbcglobal.net> - 2013-08-03 15:40 +0000
    Re: Comparing phase of physically distant signals Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-08-03 10:05 -0700
      Re: Comparing phase of physically distant signals John S <Sophi.2@invalid.org> - 2013-08-03 12:13 -0500
        Re: Comparing phase of physically distant signals Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-08-03 10:26 -0700
          Re: Comparing phase of physically distant signals John S <Sophi.2@invalid.org> - 2013-08-03 12:51 -0500
            Re: Comparing phase of physically distant signals Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-08-03 11:54 -0700
              Re: Comparing phase of physically distant signals Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2013-08-03 20:27 +0100
                Re: Comparing phase of physically distant signals George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2013-08-05 03:26 -0400
                Re: Comparing phase of physically distant signals Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2013-08-05 10:34 +0100
                Re: Comparing phase of physically distant signals Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2013-08-05 23:29 -0400
                Re: Comparing phase of physically distant signals Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2013-08-06 08:53 +0100
          Re: Comparing phase of physically distant signals Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-08-03 12:49 -0700
        Re: Comparing phase of physically distant signals Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-08-03 12:34 -0700
      Re: Comparing phase of physically distant signals Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-08-03 12:18 -0700
        Re: Comparing phase of physically distant signals Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-08-03 12:52 -0700
          Re: Comparing phase of physically distant signals Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-08-03 13:21 -0700
            Re: Comparing phase of physically distant signals Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> - 2013-08-03 13:31 -0700
              Re: Comparing phase of physically distant signals Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-08-03 14:46 -0700
                Re: Comparing phase of physically distant signals Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-08-03 15:03 -0700
                Re: Comparing phase of physically distant signals Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> - 2013-08-03 17:25 -0700
            Re: Comparing phase of physically distant signals Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-08-03 14:50 -0700
    Re: Comparing phase of physically distant signals "Paul E. Bennett" <Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk> - 2013-08-04 11:06 +0100
      Re: Comparing phase of physically distant signals Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-08-04 12:19 -0700
  Re: Comparing phase of physically distant signals John Larkin <jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> - 2013-08-03 11:47 -0700
  Re: Comparing phase of physically distant signals Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2013-08-03 18:23 -0400
  Re: Comparing phase of physically distant signals Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2013-08-05 16:53 +0100
    Re: Comparing phase of physically distant signals Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-08-05 13:19 -0700
      Re: Comparing phase of physically distant signals Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2013-08-06 00:27 +0100
        Re: Comparing phase of physically distant signals Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-08-05 20:09 -0700
          Re: Comparing phase of physically distant signals Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-08-05 22:12 -0700
            Re: Comparing phase of physically distant signals Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2013-08-06 09:12 +0100
            Re: Comparing phase of physically distant signals Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-08-06 01:47 -0700
              Re: Comparing phase of physically distant signals Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2013-08-06 10:08 +0100
                Re: Comparing phase of physically distant signals Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-08-06 02:25 -0700
                Re: Comparing phase of physically distant signals Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-08-06 02:48 -0700
                Re: Comparing phase of physically distant signals Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2013-08-06 10:49 +0100
                Re: Comparing phase of physically distant signals Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-08-06 03:06 -0700
                Re: Comparing phase of physically distant signals Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2013-08-06 11:57 +0100
                Re: Comparing phase of physically distant signals Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-08-06 10:28 -0700
                Re: Comparing phase of physically distant signals Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2013-08-06 21:52 +0100
                Re: Comparing phase of physically distant signals Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-08-07 01:34 -0700
                Re: Comparing phase of physically distant signals Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2013-08-07 09:46 +0100
              Re: Comparing phase of physically distant signals Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2013-08-06 07:22 -0500
                Re: Comparing phase of physically distant signals Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-08-06 10:42 -0700
                Re: Comparing phase of physically distant signals Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2013-08-06 23:04 -0500
                Re: Comparing phase of physically distant signals Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-08-06 23:50 -0700
                Re: Comparing phase of physically distant signals Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2013-08-07 13:05 -0500
                Re: Comparing phase of physically distant signals Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-08-07 18:22 -0700
                Re: Comparing phase of physically distant signals Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2013-08-08 09:35 +0100
              Re: Comparing phase of physically distant signals Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-08-06 22:18 -0700
                Re: Comparing phase of physically distant signals Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-08-07 03:09 -0700
                Re: Comparing phase of physically distant signals Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2013-08-07 12:39 +0100
                Re: Comparing phase of physically distant signals Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2013-08-07 13:18 +0100
          Re: Comparing phase of physically distant signals Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2013-08-06 09:23 +0100
            Re: Comparing phase of physically distant signals Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-08-06 02:02 -0700
          Re: Comparing phase of physically distant signals "Paul E. Bennett" <Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk> - 2013-08-06 09:49 +0100
            Re: Comparing phase of physically distant signals Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-08-06 02:17 -0700
  Re: Comparing phase of physically distant signals Paul E Bennett <Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk> - 2013-08-16 21:07 +0100
    Re: Comparing phase of physically distant signals Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-08-16 14:50 -0700
      Re: Comparing phase of physically distant signals Paul E Bennett <Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk> - 2013-08-18 19:55 +0100
        Re: Comparing phase of physically distant signals Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-08-19 11:43 -0700
          Re: Comparing phase of physically distant signals Paul E Bennett <Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk> - 2013-08-20 21:43 +0100
            Re: Comparing phase of physically distant signals Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-08-20 14:49 -0700

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