Re: The C Containers Library

From	"Ansel" <tinker454@trytospammenowloser.com>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.c
Subject	Re: The C Containers Library
Date	2012-07-29 22:52 -0600
Organization	Aioe.org NNTP Server
Message-ID	<jv58o5$b23$1@speranza.aioe.org> (permalink)
References	(3 earlier) <bb206f71-6858-4c61-81e9-4c3a896bdbe0@googlegroups.com> <5012E949.90106@verizon.net> <jv1uhs$2oj$1@speranza.aioe.org> <jv2d20$uei$1@speranza.aioe.org> <jv2m8d$ir8$1@speranza.aioe.org>

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"jacob navia" <jacob@spamsink.net> wrote in message 
news:jv2m8d$ir8$1@speranza.aioe.org...
> Le 29/07/12 06:08, Ansel a écrit :
>> "jacob navia" <jacob@spamsink.net> wrote in message
>> news:jv1uhs$2oj$1@speranza.aioe.org...
>>> Le 27/07/12 21:17, James Kuyper a écrit :
>>
>>> No, since C and C++ are different languages with different approaches.
>>>
>>> In C++ the solution to everything is to complexify the language without
>>> bounds.
>>>
>>> In C, complex software can be done with simpler tools if you program
>>> carefully. That is why I like C. It allows you to build powerful
>>> software with relatively simple tools. It appeals aesthetically,
>>> I would say.
>>>
>>>> without all of the C++-specific features that STL relies upon,
>>>
>>> Exactly. Without all that huge machinery I arrive at very similar speeds
>>> and features.
>>
>> Please post a side-by-side syntax comparison (STL vs. your CCL) of a few
>> easy container declarations and their usages. A comparison chart of 
>> features
>> comparing the two would be great also. A "strengths and weakeness" list 
>> of
>> both would be more nice info. If you throw-in an overall comparison
>> paragraph or two, you'd have the start to a "white paper" (maybe)! You'd
>> need performance and overhead comparisons then too and an objective
>> comparison of implementation characterisitcs beyond "and I did it without
>> huge machinery".
>>
>> I don't think you can go to the conference and *not* compare against STL
>> even though you have a C-based product. Else you're going to get 
>> responses
>> like James gave you about it being kludgy -- you have to address that
>> ("that" being that C gives one less clay to mold a container library 
>> with)
>> and try to alleviate those concerns so that no one even thinks to say 
>> that.
>> Your story needs to be not only convincing, but *compelling*.
>>
>> Did you start with STL as a design and then subtract until you came up 
>> with
>> something similar that would work in C? If not, that may very well be a 
>> very
>> good exercise.
>>
>>
>
> No, I will not do that. The library is not a direct competition for the
> STL,

I don't see how you could *not* examine STL in great detail in pursuit of a 
container library these days. Aren't you afraid of missing out on things 
learned from the STL implementation? Containers *do* have common ground 
(design and architecture) apart from the languages they are written in, you 
know.

> C++ is the best thing since sliced bread, and people that like
> that machinery because they have been building it since years would fall
> on me and my small project like hawks...

But consider that you wouldn't have to research/analyze/build all the 
containers, just one or two. The rest of the design would pretty much 
follow. But that's just something I would do, and worth about .02 to you 
maybe. Which other container libraries did you examine in detail? Java or C# 
perhaps?

>
> C++ people tend to look upon simpler tools like C with disdain since by 
> their very existence they show that another (simpler) way is possible
> in software development; a way that leads maybe into less complexity
> than what C++ offers now.

Define the criteria of simplicity. CCL is simpler than STL.. how? Simpler to 
implement? Simpler to comprehend and use? How many ancillary techniques does 
it require to implement or use CCL? Will C programmers be able to use it 
immediately or is there a learning curve and some number of  "gotchas"? I 
don't actually want you to answer these questions here -- I want to read the 
white paper!

> But I am not pushing that, and I do not see
> C++ people abandoning C++ to come to C. I see C programmers having
> more fun with C since they do not have to implement a list AGAIN and 
> AGAIN.
>
> I see the library a a develomment of the C language, independent of C++.
>
> Not as a competitor.
>
> And I stay to this:
>
> >> In C, complex software can be done with simple tools if you program
> >> carefully. That is why I like C. It allows you to build powerful
> >> software with relatively simple tools. It appeals aesthetically,
> >> I would say.
>

I still think you should develop a professional-level white paper to show 
how serious you are. Else, how will anyone know that you didn't bury your 
head in the sand to whole realm of container technology, past and present? 
Is there a better model for presentation of such technical matter? Compare 
"white paper" with "brochure". If you are armed with only "brochure", I 
don't see this going anywhere. Do you have a good story to tell the 
committee? What is that saying in academic circles? Oh yeah, "publish or 
perish".

Just another .02 from me. I wish you luck, but I hope you are, or will be, 
well-prepared so you won't need luck.

Thread

The C Containers Library jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2012-07-08 21:53 +0200
  Re: The C Containers Library aftnix <aftnix@gmail.com> - 2012-07-26 13:13 -0700
    Re: The C Containers Library jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2012-07-26 22:31 +0200
      Re: The C Containers Library lawrence.jones@siemens.com - 2012-07-28 17:46 -0400
        Re: The C Containers Library jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2012-07-29 02:05 +0200
          Re: The C Containers Library lawrence.jones@siemens.com - 2012-07-30 14:48 -0400
          Re: The C Containers Library Phil Bradby <nospam@nospam.com> - 2012-08-01 21:00 +0000
            Re: The C Containers Library jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2012-08-01 23:18 +0200
            Re: The C Containers Library Nick Keighley <nick_keighley_nospam@hotmail.com> - 2012-08-02 00:48 -0700
              Re: The C Containers Library James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-08-02 07:00 -0400
                Re: The C Containers Library jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2012-08-02 13:27 +0200
                Re: The C Containers Library Quentin Pope <qp19433@hotmail.NOSPAM.com> - 2012-08-02 20:27 +0000
                Re: The C Containers Library Nick Keighley <nick_keighley_nospam@hotmail.com> - 2012-08-02 05:13 -0700
                Re: The C Containers Library Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2012-08-02 14:26 -0700
                Re: The C Containers Library Kenneth Brody <kenbrody@spamcop.net> - 2012-08-03 10:47 -0400
        Re: The C Containers Library Noob <root@localhost> - 2012-07-29 09:58 +0200
          Re: The C Containers Library "Ansel" <tinker454@trytospammenowloser.com> - 2012-07-30 00:31 -0600
            Re: The C Containers Library Noob <root@localhost> - 2012-07-30 09:45 +0200
              Re: The C Containers Library Nick Keighley <nick_keighley_nospam@hotmail.com> - 2012-07-30 02:10 -0700
          Re: The C Containers Library lawrence.jones@siemens.com - 2012-07-30 14:54 -0400
    Re: The C Containers Library James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-07-26 16:52 -0400
      Re: The C Containers Library jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2012-07-26 22:56 +0200
        Re: The C Containers Library pacman@kosh.dhis.org (Alan Curry) - 2012-07-26 22:29 +0000
          Re: The C Containers Library jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2012-07-27 01:50 +0200
            Re: The C Containers Library pacman@kosh.dhis.org (Alan Curry) - 2012-07-27 22:28 +0000
          Re: The C Containers Library Nick Keighley <nick_keighley_nospam@hotmail.com> - 2012-07-29 06:31 -0700
            Re: The C Containers Library "Ansel" <tinker454@trytospammenowloser.com> - 2012-07-30 00:26 -0600
              Re: The C Containers Library Nick Keighley <nick_keighley_nospam@hotmail.com> - 2012-07-30 02:21 -0700
                Re: The C Containers Library "Ansel" <tinker454@trytospammenowloser.com> - 2012-08-02 02:27 -0600
                Re: The C Containers Library Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-08-02 16:43 +0100
                Re: The C Containers Library Ansel <lateknightdev@gmail.com> - 2012-08-02 17:07 -0700
                Re: The C Containers Library Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-08-03 22:21 +0100
                Re: The C Containers Library Ansel <lateknightdev@gmail.com> - 2012-08-03 15:43 -0700
                Re: The C Containers Library Anders Wegge Keller <wegge@wegge.dk> - 2012-08-04 06:32 +0200
                Re: The C Containers Library Nick Keighley <nick_keighley_nospam@hotmail.com> - 2012-08-04 01:52 -0700
                Re: The C Containers Library "Ansel" <tinker454@trytospammenowloser.com> - 2012-08-04 22:36 -0600
                Re: The C Containers Library Anders Wegge Keller <wegge@wegge.dk> - 2012-08-05 08:36 +0200
                Re: The C Containers Library "Ansel" <tinker454@trytospammenowloser.com> - 2012-08-05 01:28 -0600
                Re: The C Containers Library Anders Wegge Keller <wegge@wegge.dk> - 2012-08-05 11:31 +0200
                Re: The C Containers Library "Ansel" <tinker454@trytospammenowloser.com> - 2012-08-05 03:48 -0600
            Re: The C Containers Library Nick Keighley <nick_keighley_nospam@hotmail.com> - 2012-08-04 03:41 -0700
        Re: The C Containers Library jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2012-07-27 01:55 +0200
  Re: The C Containers Library wkaras@yahoo.com - 2012-07-26 13:45 -0700
    Re: The C Containers Library jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2012-07-26 22:53 +0200
      Re: The C Containers Library wkaras@yahoo.com - 2012-07-26 18:46 -0700
        Re: The C Containers Library jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2012-07-27 10:59 +0200
          Re: The C Containers Library gwowen <gwowen@gmail.com> - 2012-07-27 03:39 -0700
          Re: The C Containers Library wkaras@yahoo.com - 2012-07-27 11:34 -0700
        Re: The C Containers Library jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2012-07-27 11:04 +0200
          Re: The C Containers Library W Karas <wkaras@yahoo.com> - 2012-07-27 13:10 -0700
  Re: The C Containers Library wkaras@yahoo.com - 2012-07-26 18:54 -0700
    Re: The C Containers Library James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-07-27 10:25 -0400
      Re: The C Containers Library wkaras@yahoo.com - 2012-07-27 11:28 -0700
        Re: The C Containers Library James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-07-27 15:17 -0400
          Re: The C Containers Library wkaras@yahoo.com - 2012-07-27 13:00 -0700
          Re: The C Containers Library jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2012-07-29 02:02 +0200
            Re: The C Containers Library "Ansel" <tinker454@trytospammenowloser.com> - 2012-07-28 22:08 -0600
              Re: The C Containers Library jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2012-07-29 08:46 +0200
                Re: The C Containers Library pacman@kosh.dhis.org (Alan Curry) - 2012-07-29 07:43 +0000
                Re: The C Containers Library jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2012-07-29 09:59 +0200
                Re: The C Containers Library Nick Keighley <nick_keighley_nospam@hotmail.com> - 2012-07-29 06:43 -0700
                Re: The C Containers Library pacman@kosh.dhis.org (Alan Curry) - 2012-07-29 17:27 +0000
                Re: The C Containers Library jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2012-07-29 20:56 +0200
                Re: The C Containers Library pacman@kosh.dhis.org (Alan Curry) - 2012-07-30 00:07 +0000
                Re: The C Containers Library "Ansel" <tinker454@trytospammenowloser.com> - 2012-07-30 00:07 -0600
                Re: The C Containers Library Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-07-29 11:58 -0700
                Re: The C Containers Library jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2012-07-29 22:06 +0200
                Re: The C Containers Library jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2012-07-29 22:23 +0200
                Re: The C Containers Library Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.invalid> - 2012-07-30 00:13 +0200
                Re: The C Containers Library "Ansel" <tinker454@trytospammenowloser.com> - 2012-07-30 00:13 -0600
                Re: The C Containers Library Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-07-30 01:10 -0700
                Re: The C Containers Library "Ansel" <tinker454@trytospammenowloser.com> - 2012-07-30 02:57 -0600
                Re: The C Containers Library Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2012-07-30 15:47 +0000
                Re: The C Containers Library Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-07-30 13:01 -0700
                Re: The C Containers Library Nick Keighley <nick_keighley_nospam@hotmail.com> - 2012-07-30 04:53 -0700
                Re: The C Containers Library Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-07-30 13:04 -0700
                Re: The C Containers Library "Ansel" <tinker454@trytospammenowloser.com> - 2012-08-02 02:11 -0600
                Re: The C Containers Library James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-08-02 06:52 -0400
                Re: The C Containers Library James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-08-02 06:46 -0400
                Re: The C Containers Library Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-07-30 00:41 +0100
                Re: The C Containers Library jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2012-07-30 09:45 +0200
                Re: The C Containers Library "Ansel" <tinker454@trytospammenowloser.com> - 2012-07-29 23:05 -0600
                Re: The C Containers Library "Ansel" <tinker454@trytospammenowloser.com> - 2012-07-29 22:52 -0600
                Re: The C Containers Library Nick Keighley <nick_keighley_nospam@hotmail.com> - 2012-07-30 04:56 -0700
                Re: The C Containers Library "Ansel" <tinker454@trytospammenowloser.com> - 2012-08-02 02:07 -0600
                Re: The C Containers Library jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2012-07-30 17:49 +0200
        Re: The C Containers Library Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-07-28 09:17 +0100
          Re: The C Containers Library W Karas <wkaras@yahoo.com> - 2012-07-28 15:17 -0700
            Re: The C Containers Library Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-07-29 11:10 +0100
        Re: The C Containers Library Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2012-07-28 06:51 -0700
          Re: The C Containers Library Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2012-07-28 17:23 +0100
            Re: The C Containers Library Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2012-07-30 13:40 -0700
              Re: The C Containers Library Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.invalid> - 2012-07-31 00:24 +0200
          Re: The C Containers Library Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.invalid> - 2012-07-31 00:05 +0200
          Re: The C Containers Library Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-07-31 00:53 +0100
            Re: The C Containers Library jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2012-07-31 09:24 +0200
            Re: The C Containers Library Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2012-08-02 14:45 -0700
              Re: The C Containers Library Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-08-03 22:31 +0100
                Re: The C Containers Library jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2012-08-04 00:01 +0200
                Re: The C Containers Library Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2012-08-03 23:45 +0100
                Re: The C Containers Library "Ansel" <tinker454@trytospammenowloser.com> - 2012-08-04 22:47 -0600
                Re: The C Containers Library "Ansel" <tinker454@trytospammenowloser.com> - 2012-08-04 22:41 -0600
                Re: The C Containers Library Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-08-07 10:24 +0100
                Re: The C Containers Library jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2012-08-07 15:30 +0200
                Re: The C Containers Library Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2012-08-07 15:35 +0100
                Re: The C Containers Library Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2012-09-07 12:40 -0700
                Re: The C Containers Library Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2012-09-08 00:07 +0100
                Re: The C Containers Library Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2012-09-07 17:31 -0700
                Re: The C Containers Library Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2012-09-08 03:14 +0100
                Re: The C Containers Library Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2012-09-08 05:22 -0700
                Re: The C Containers Library Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2012-09-07 12:36 -0700
                Re: The C Containers Library Nick Keighley <nick_keighley_nospam@hotmail.com> - 2012-08-08 02:26 -0700
                Re: The C Containers Library jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2012-08-08 17:25 +0200
            Re: The C Containers Library 88888 Dihedral <dihedral88888@googlemail.com> - 2012-08-03 16:04 -0700
  Re: The C Containers Library SG <s.gesemann@gmail.com> - 2012-08-04 04:52 -0700
    Re: The C Containers Library jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2012-08-04 18:42 +0200
      Re: The C Containers Library Ike Naar <ike@faeroes.freeshell.org> - 2012-08-04 19:17 +0000
        Re: The C Containers Library Ike Naar <ike@faeroes.freeshell.org> - 2012-08-04 19:22 +0000
        Re: The C Containers Library jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2012-08-04 22:14 +0200
        Re: The C Containers Library jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2012-08-05 00:15 +0200
          Re: The C Containers Library Ike Naar <ike@faeroes.freeshell.org> - 2012-08-04 23:13 +0000
            Re: The C Containers Library "Ansel" <tinker454@trytospammenowloser.com> - 2012-08-04 22:53 -0600

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