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Re: Falsification of second postulate of SR, using the CMBR

From	Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address>
Newsgroups	sci.physics.relativity
Subject	Re: Falsification of second postulate of SR, using the CMBR
Date	2018-04-23 12:37 +1000
Message-ID	<fk4v7aFa8n2U1@mid.individual.net> (permalink)
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On 23/04/2018 6:04 AM, Dino Bruniera wrote:
> Il 22/04/2018 02:40, Sylvia Else ha scritto:
>> On 21/04/2018 7:08 PM, Dino Bruniera wrote:
>>> Il 21/04/2018 01:28, Sylvia Else ha scritto:
>>>> On 21/04/2018 6:40 AM, Dino Bruniera wrote:
>>>>> Il 20/04/2018 04:56, Sylvia Else ha scritto:
>>>>>> On 20/04/2018 7:39 AM, Dino Bruniera wrote:
>>>>>>> Demonstration that on Earth (that is an inertial frame) the speed 
>>>>>>> of light cannot be isotropic and therefore cannot be c, so the 
>>>>>>> second postulate of Special Relativity (SR), which states that 
>>>>>>> the speed of light has the same value c in all inertial frames, 
>>>>>>> is falsified.
>>>>>>>
>>>
>>> So I performed the demonstration in two different ways.
>>> I don't know in what other ways the scientific community would like 
>>> me to prove it.
>>>
>>> As I wrote in the previous post, I think that the only way in which 
>>> the scientific community can "challenge" my demonstration is to state 
>>> that the special relativity would see the truck as an inertial frame 
>>> and the surface of the sphere as another inertial frame, which moves 
>>> under it.
>>> Which is a Ptolemaic view of reality.
>>> And that I could "challenge" in turn, asking what the engine that 
>>> drives the wheels of the truck, would do.
>>> But I already imagine what would be answered to me.
>>>
>>> However I think that only with a Ptolemaic view of reality, perhaps 
>>> it would be possible to "challenge" my demonstration.
>>> But is a Ptolemaic view of reality, credible?
>>>
> 
>> That the background radiation spectrum is not the same in all 
>> directions is not in dispute. What is in dispute is that this implies 
>> that the photons have different speeds relative to the Earth. So far, 
>> your arguments have been circular.
>>
>> Special relativity provides a consistent model of reality derived 
>> inexorably from certain assumptions, one of which is that the laws of 
>> physics depend only on relative velocities. That does not in itself 
>> mean that it is right, but it does mean that any model in which the 
>> speed of light is shown to be not constant must contain an assumption 
>> that contradicts the assumptions on which special relativity is based.
>>
>> Thus attempting to show that special relativity is wrong by way of 
>> thought experiments is a fool's errand, because such attempts are 
>> necessarily circular. This approach is doomed to failure. It is a 
>> logical impossibility. It is an ex-parrot. The only way to get closer 
>> to the truth is through real experiments.
>>
> 
> As regards the thought experiments, you convinced me.
> But as regards the measurement of the dipole anisotropy, which shows 
> that the Earth is moving relative to the CMBR reference frame, not much.
> Because this reference frame could be considered as the privileged 
> reference frame, which Lorentz could not find.

If there were a privileged reference frame, one would expect that to 
show up in experiments, and it doesn't.

> 
> 
>> Fortunately, many real experiments have been done, and the results are 
>> consistent with special relativity.
>>
> 
> In his books, the physicist Franco Selleri has shown that experiments 
> that are consistent with SR are also consistent with his "weak 
> relativity", which in practice is a theory of the aether.
> But not only, because the experiment on the Sagnac effect would not be 
> consistent with SR, but with his theory.

Any theory in which the speed of light is the same for all observers 
must necessarily reduce to the Lorentz Transformation, in the absence of 
gravity. This is indeed the reason that Lorentz arrived at his 
transformation, and why the same transformation that Einstein 
independently found is still called the Lorentz Transformation. Einstein 
started from a different premise, but the transformation itself is the 
mathematical model that constitutes the theory.

As far as I can see, special relativity has no problem with the Sagnac 
effect.

> 
> Therefore, even assuming that my demonstration isn't sufficient to 
> falsify the second postulate of SR, it would be to choose between two 
> theories both consistent with the result of the experiments.
> And it seems to me that a Ptolemaic theory, like the SR, is worse than a 
> Copernican theory, like that of the aether.

> 
> However, Einstein based his theory on the validity of the second 
> postulate, but also claimed that the isotropy of the speed of light
> "is in reality neither a supposition nor a hypothesis about the physical 
> nature of light, but a stipulation which I can make of my own free will"
> So Einstein supposed that the speed of light is isotropic in all RFs, 
> not because it actually can be, but as a stipulation.

The motivation for it was the fact that experiments had failed to detect 
any variation in the speed of light, even in situations where such a 
variation had been expected and easily within the scope of the 
experiments to detect. It should be remembered that the Michelson–Morley 
experiment was intended to measure the speed of the Earth relative to 
the aether. That it produced a null result was completely unexpected.

> 
> Therefore I ask you:
> If a theory were developed, with the stipulation that the CMBR reference 
> frame is the privileged reference frame, the only one in which the speed 
> of light is really isotropic, would not, at least, have the same 
> validity as the SR?

No, it wouldn't. One can pull theories out of the air, but to have any 
validity they have to match experimental results. Any theory that 
contains a privileged reference frame[*] must necessarily predict 
results which different from those of special relativity. Since 
experiments support special relativity, they must conflict with other 
theories that predict different outcomes, and thus falsify them.

Sylvia.

[*] Other than one that is inherently undetectable in the theory, which 
raises obvious doubts about its existence

Thread

Falsification of second postulate of SR, using the CMBR Dino Bruniera <dino.bruniera@gmail.com> - 2018-04-19 23:39 +0200
  Re: Falsification of second postulate of SR, using the CMBR Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2018-04-20 12:56 +1000
    Re: Falsification of second postulate of SR, using the CMBR Dino Bruniera <dino.bruniera@gmail.com> - 2018-04-20 22:40 +0200
      Re: Falsification of second postulate of SR, using the CMBR Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2018-04-21 09:28 +1000
        Re: Falsification of second postulate of SR, using the CMBR Koobee Wublee <koobee.wublee@gmail.com> - 2018-04-20 17:42 -0700
          Re: Falsification of second postulate of SR, using the CMBR "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-04-20 17:45 -0700
          Re: Falsification of second postulate of SR, using the CMBR pnalsing@gmail.com - 2018-04-20 17:48 -0700
            Re: Falsification of second postulate of SR, using the CMBR Koobee Wublee <koobee.wublee@gmail.com> - 2018-04-21 16:08 -0700
        Re: Falsification of second postulate of SR, using the CMBR mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2018-04-20 21:09 -0700
        Re: Falsification of second postulate of SR, using the CMBR Dino Bruniera <dino.bruniera@gmail.com> - 2018-04-21 11:08 +0200
          Re: Falsification of second postulate of SR, using the CMBR Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2018-04-22 10:40 +1000
            Re: Falsification of second postulate of SR, using the CMBR Lofty Goat <rlwatkins@gmail.com> - 2018-04-22 12:01 -0500
            Re: Falsification of second postulate of SR, using the CMBR Keith Stein <keithstein111@gmail.com> - 2018-04-22 18:53 +0100
              Re: Falsification of second postulate of SR, using the CMBR Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2018-04-23 12:14 +1000
                Re: Falsification of second postulate of SR, using the CMBR Keith Stein <keithstein111@gmail.com> - 2018-04-23 08:26 +0100
                Re: Falsification of second postulate of SR, using the CMBR Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2018-04-23 19:57 +1000
                Re: Falsification of second postulate of SR, using the CMBR Gary Harnagel <hitlong@yahoo.com> - 2018-04-23 05:50 -0700
              Re: Falsification of second postulate of SR, using the CMBR Paparios <mrios@ing.puc.cl> - 2018-04-23 05:26 -0700
                Re: Falsification of second postulate of SR, using the CMBR mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2018-04-23 06:09 -0700
                Re: Falsification of second postulate of SR, using the CMBR Keith Stein <keithstein111@gmail.com> - 2018-04-24 08:32 +0100
                Re: Falsification of second postulate of SR, using the CMBR mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2018-04-24 01:48 -0700
                Re: Falsification of second postulate of SR, using the CMBR Keith Stein <keithstein111@gmail.com> - 2018-04-24 10:33 +0100
                Re: Falsification of second postulate of SR, using the CMBR mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2018-04-24 02:53 -0700
                Re: Falsification of second postulate of SR, using the CMBR Keith Stein <keithstein111@gmail.com> - 2018-04-24 12:00 +0100
                Re: Falsification of second postulate of SR, using the CMBR mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2018-04-24 04:08 -0700
                Re: Falsification of second postulate of SR, using the CMBR Gary Harnagel <hitlong@yahoo.com> - 2018-04-24 04:33 -0700
                Re: Falsification of second postulate of SR, using the CMBR mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2018-04-24 05:11 -0700
                Re: Falsification of second postulate of SR, using the CMBR Keith Stein <keithstein111@gmail.com> - 2018-04-24 14:13 +0100
                Re: Falsification of second postulate of SR, using the CMBR Gary Harnagel <hitlong@yahoo.com> - 2018-04-24 09:26 -0700
            Re: Falsification of second postulate of SR, using the CMBR Dino Bruniera <dino.bruniera@gmail.com> - 2018-04-22 22:04 +0200
              Re: Falsification of second postulate of SR, using the CMBR Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2018-04-23 12:37 +1000
                Re: Falsification of second postulate of SR, using the CMBR "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-04-22 19:58 -0700
                Re: Falsification of second postulate of SR, using the CMBR "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-04-22 20:06 -0700
                Re: Falsification of second postulate of SR, using the CMBR "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-04-22 20:42 -0700
                Re: Falsification of second postulate of SR, using the CMBR "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-04-22 22:40 -0700
                Re: Falsification of second postulate of SR, using the CMBR Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2018-04-23 17:01 +1000
                Re: Falsification of second postulate of SR, using the CMBR "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-04-23 09:17 -0700
                Re: Falsification of second postulate of SR, using the CMBR "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-04-23 10:05 -0700
                Re: Falsification of second postulate of SR, using the CMBR Dino Bruniera <dino.bruniera@gmail.com> - 2018-04-23 16:07 +0200
                Re: Falsification of second postulate of SR, using the CMBR Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2018-04-24 13:47 +1000
                Re: Falsification of second postulate of SR, using the CMBR mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2018-04-23 21:28 -0700
                Re: Falsification of second postulate of SR, using the CMBR Keith Stein <keithstein111@gmail.com> - 2018-04-24 11:25 +0100
                Re: Falsification of second postulate of SR, using the CMBR JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2018-04-24 14:49 -0700
                Re: Falsification of second postulate of SR, using the CMBR Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-04-24 13:05 +0000
                Re: Falsification of second postulate of SR, using the CMBR mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2018-04-24 06:32 -0700
                Re: Falsification of second postulate of SR, using the CMBR Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-04-24 15:38 +0000
                Re: Falsification of second postulate of SR, using the CMBR mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2018-04-24 09:06 -0700
                Re: Falsification of second postulate of SR, using the CMBR Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-04-24 16:27 +0000
                Re: Falsification of second postulate of SR, using the CMBR mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2018-04-24 10:01 -0700
                Re: Falsification of second postulate of SR, using the CMBR Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-04-24 18:13 +0000
                Re: Falsification of second postulate of SR, using the CMBR mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2018-04-24 11:28 -0700
                Re: Falsification of second postulate of SR, using the CMBR Dino Bruniera <dino.bruniera@gmail.com> - 2018-04-24 22:29 +0200
                Re: Falsification of second postulate of SR, using the CMBR Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2018-04-25 09:25 +1000
                Re: Falsification of second postulate of SR, using the CMBR mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2018-04-24 21:27 -0700
                Re: Falsification of second postulate of SR, using the CMBR Dino Bruniera <dino.bruniera@gmail.com> - 2018-04-25 21:39 +0200
                Re: Falsification of second postulate of SR, using the CMBR Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2018-04-26 10:42 +1000
                Re: Falsification of second postulate of SR, using the CMBR mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2018-04-25 21:37 -0700
                Re: Falsification of second postulate of SR, using the CMBR Dino Bruniera <dino.bruniera@gmail.com> - 2018-04-26 12:59 +0200
                Re: Falsification of second postulate of SR, using the CMBR Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2018-04-27 09:07 +1000
                Re: Falsification of second postulate of SR, using the CMBR Dino Bruniera <dino.bruniera@gmail.com> - 2018-04-27 22:38 +0200
                Re: Falsification of second postulate of SR, using the CMBR Jim Emile <leuu@wwjw.ce> - 2018-04-27 20:46 +0000
                Re: Falsification of second postulate of SR, using the CMBR Dino Bruniera <dino.bruniera@gmail.com> - 2018-04-28 14:40 +0200
                Re: Falsification of second postulate of SR, using the CMBR Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2018-04-29 14:28 +1000
                Re: Falsification of second postulate of SR, using the CMBR "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-04-28 22:32 -0700
                Re: Falsification of second postulate of SR, using the CMBR Dino Bruniera <dino.bruniera@gmail.com> - 2018-04-29 17:41 +0200
                Re: Falsification of second postulate of SR, using the CMBR Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2018-04-30 08:51 +1000
                Re: Falsification of second postulate of SR, using the CMBR Dino Bruniera <dino.bruniera@gmail.com> - 2018-04-30 10:14 +0200
                Re: Falsification of second postulate of SR, using the CMBR pnalsing@gmail.com - 2018-04-26 21:58 -0700
                Re: Falsification of second postulate of SR, using the CMBR "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-04-26 22:19 -0700
                Re: Falsification of second postulate of SR, using the CMBR "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-04-26 22:28 -0700
                Re: Falsification of second postulate of SR, using the CMBR Dino Bruniera <dino.bruniera@gmail.com> - 2018-04-27 20:49 +0200
                Re: Falsification of second postulate of SR, using the CMBR "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-04-27 12:21 -0700
                Re: Falsification of second postulate of SR, using the CMBR "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-04-27 13:30 -0700
                Re: Falsification of second postulate of SR, using the CMBR JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2018-04-23 23:52 -0700
      Re: Falsification of second postulate of SR, using the CMBR JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2018-04-23 23:46 -0700
  Re: Falsification of second postulate of SR, using the CMBR "e-ps@gmail.com" <effectuationism@gmail.com> - 2018-04-22 10:27 -0700
    Re: Falsification of second postulate of SR, using the CMBR pnalsing@gmail.com - 2018-04-22 10:45 -0700
      Re: Falsification of second postulate of SR, using the CMBR "effectuationism@gmail.com" <effectuationism@gmail.com> - 2018-04-22 10:51 -0700
    Re: Falsification of second postulate of SR, using the CMBR Dino Bruniera <dino.bruniera@gmail.com> - 2018-04-22 22:16 +0200
      Re: Falsification of second postulate of SR, using the CMBR "effectuationism@gmail.com" <effectuationism@gmail.com> - 2018-04-22 13:39 -0700

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