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Re: ebooks

Cross-posted to 2 groups.

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Whiskers <catwheezel@operamail.com> wrote
> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
>> Whiskers <catwheezel@operamail.com> wrote
>>> Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote
>>>> Whiskers <catwheezel@operamail.com> wrote

>>>>> The biggest problem with ebooks is navigation; you can't slide a
>>>>> finger-nail between pages at roughly the right distance between
>>>>> front and back and then flick pages to find what you want,

>>>> I can. Not PHYSICAL pages, but yes, I slide my finger along the
>>>> bottom until I'm say, half way in, then tap right/left to flip pages
>>>> to the right page.

>>>>> If I'm going to pay for a book, I want a hard copy; a proper
>>>>> paperback at least.  I am repelled by the idea of paying money for
>>>>> a licence to possess one digital copy which is not transferable to
>>>>> anyone else, and possibly not even to another device owned by me,
>>>>> and which can be withdrawn at any time the provider sees fit.
>>>>> Books are for sharing and passing on and going back to; that's
>>>>> perfectly possible with ebooks, but not while the publishers try to
>>>>> impose 'digital rights management' and 'licenses' and other
>>>>> nonsense making such activities 'shady' or 'illegal'.

>>>> Fortunately, stripping the DRM from ebooks is trivial.

>>> But doing so contravenes the 'licence' or 'end user licensing
>>> agreement' to which you have to agree before you can access the
>>> original file.

>> I don’t care. I believe that I have the same rights with an ebook
>> as I have with a physical book and that there is no licence at all
>> involved legally or morally. And I have never agreed to anything
>> whatever they claim.

> What you believe and what you care about are your own opinions.
> They carry no weight in law.

I wasn’t talking about the law.

> I'd be very surprised if you've ever bought an
> ebook without at some point having to click on
> something to say 'I accept the terms and conditions';

Try using amazon some time. I have never done
that with any of the ebooks I have got from them.

I just click on the purchase button and I've got it.

And even if I did click on something that said something
like that, that does not legally constitute any agreement
with something which is not something the author of
that text had any right to anyway.

> it doesn't matter whether or not you've read them all, if you
> say you accept them then you do accept them.  That's a contract.

Wrong in my jurisdiction.

> Any recent (since WWII?) printed book is likely to have a notice
> on the cover or flyleaf or somewhere at least easy to find, saying
> that it is sold subject to the condition that it is not copied in any
> way without the publisher's specific agreement.

And if it said that your first born would be sold into slavery if you
did that, that would be legally null and void and not binding.

What makes copying the book illegal is the
law, not what is printed in that particular book.

And I can't even see that when I buy the book
online anyway until after I have received it.

And that restriction still applys to the book even if
it’s a used book and that page has been ripped from
the book by the previous owner of the book too.

> If you accept the book, you accept that condition.

Wrong.

> That's a contract.

There is no legally binding contract in that situation.

There is certainly law that applys, but that is a different
matter entirely to what someone chooses to print in a
particular book. What is printed in a particular book is
in fact just an attempt by the publisher to make it clear
to whoever has the book in their hands what the law says.

And does not prevent anyone from using the law that
applys in their own jurisdiction from doing what the
law allows them to do with regards to copying parts
of the book for review or comment etc.

> You have agreed not to copy the book, in each case.

Wrong. I have agreed to nothing.

> The paper one is a lot harder to copy than
> the digital one, but that isn't the point.

The point is that the law says what you can legally copy
and it doesn’t matter a damn what is printed in that book
in that regard.

>>> The publishers will compare this with a thief getting into a
>>> money-box by picking a simple lock;

>> I don’t care what they compare it with.

>>> what matters is that it was done, not how easy it might have been.
>>> If the licence to read an ebook is found to be enforceable in law

>> It won't be in my country.

> You have a country all your own?

Nope.

>>> then the publishers will start going after people who they believe
>>> have breached that licence

>> But they will have no way of working out if I have done that.

> Good luck with that.

Its completely trivial to ensure that they never get to see anything of 
mine.

>>> - just as the recorded music industry have been chasing people
>>> who make unencrypted copies of CDs and MPEGs available.

>> So I won't make the ebooks available, I will just remove the DRM
>> so I can do what I believe I have the legal and moral right to do,
>> put it on anything I choose to put it on, give it to anyone I choose
>> to give it to when I have no further use for it myself etc, sell it at a
>> garage/yard sale if I choose to do that too.

>>> With printed books and pressed gramophone records, it's
>>> easy for the industry to enforce the idea that if you want
>>> another copy, you have to get it from them and pay for it.

>> It isnt actually, its trivially easy to copy
>> a book or gramophone records.

> Not preserving the identical user experience in isn't.

It is with a book and other physical music formats.

And its legal to move the music to a different physical
format in some jurisdictions too, regardless of what
the copyright owner wants to allow in that regard.

>>> They can't control what you do with that copy, but
>>> they can be reasonably certain that any copies in
>>> circulation have been made by them and paid for.

>>> Digital media have fundamentally changed those facts.

>> That's their problem, not mine.

>>> If I want to share a book that I'm reading on my tablet, without
>>> sharing the device and all its other content, I can transmit it to my
>>> friend's device by cable or wifi or bluetooth or infrared or some
>>> other means - but that creates a duplicate of the original.  Even if
>>> publishers try to include a program that will erase the original if
>>> it detects a copy being made, any code that can be invented can be
>>> countered by other code so such attempts at 'protection' are
>>> ultimately futile.

>> Again, that's their problem, not mine.

>>> This is fine for end users, at least in the short term,
>>> but is very bad news for the content providers whose
>>> income depends on getting paid per copy created.

>> Again, that's their problem, not mine.

> Unless you want content after the content
> producers have been forced to stop making it

That will never happen with books or music or video either.

> because they need to put their effort into earning a living somehow.

Plenty of authors and musicians have always accepted that they
may not be able to live just on the sales of what they produce.

Plenty are happy to make what they produce available
for free now that its so easy to do that with youtube etc.

If some others find that that that cripples their
own sales, that's their problem, not mine.

You have always had that with most professions, there will
always be some prepared to do some stuff for free and that
does affect the income of those who are not prepared to do that.

I do that myself, and if those who depend on that work to
make living don’t like that, that's their problem, not mine.

>>> It's bad enough for it to make some businesses unsustainable;
>>> as already noted in this thread, actual bricks and mortar book
>>> shops (and record shops too) are becoming rarer.

>> And ebook distribution much better. We have even seen some
>> choose to hand out free legal copys to anyone who wants them
>> for a while. That isnt as practical with dead tree books.

>>> Publishers too face a real threat to their long term survival,

>> I doubt it with ebooks. The detail will change, just like it did
>> when we started to be able to record music if we wanted to,
>> but that did not see the demise of music.

> Certainly not.  It has made the record companies suffer
> though, forcing them to retrench, merge, or close completely.

Again, that's their problem. Things change, those involved
in producing buggy whips get to wear the downsides of
most of us no longer needing buggy whips anymore.

> Musicians can still create and perform, there are still live concerts etc,

And now have trivially easy ways to make what they record
available to anyone who want it, either for free or at a price.

> but without an HMV or a Sony or some such 'music house'
> to provide publicity and recording facilities and advice and
> advances and so on, how many musicians find fame or fortune?

We'll see.

We've already seen plenty use operations like amazon to self publish.

And we have also seen some offer an editing service quite
separate from a publishing operation that self publishers can
use, and they end up with a much higher percentage of the
retail price of what they write when they go that route.

I expect that if someone like JK Rowling chooses to go that
route, that they are likely to be even more successful than
she was with someone who is as good at writing as she is.

And we will see a hell of a lot more personal historys and
memoirs that would never find any publisher interested in
publishing, because the market for that particular book
couldn’t possible pay for the much higher overheads any
commercial publisher is stuck with.

Yes, that may well see quite different books available to
anyone who wants them, but that's life, things change.

>>> and that in turn means that writers will
>>> lose that avenue of support and payment.

>> But we will still see some who are prepared
>> to pay for what they decide they want to have.

> If they happen to find out that it's there.

Its now MUCH easier to find out what is available in your area of interest.

>>> Creative types are adaptable and will eventually
>>> find new ways of earning from their work,

>> And some have in fact found that offering free copys of at least some
>> of their work for a limited time does see some decide that they like
>> the work and are prepared to pay for more of their work. Something
>> that is much more practical with ebooks than with dead tree books.

> It's a way of generating 'word of mouth' publicity; the only sort there
> is without a Penguin or a Hamlyn or some such pushing your wares.

That last is wrong. There are much better ways of keeping track of
what has shown up in your area of interest than there used to be
when the only real alternative was to see what had shown up in
the bookshops you could visit, or in a review in a newspaper etc.

>>> but the intermediaries who depend on both the creators
>>> and the consumers co-operating with them, will have to work
>>> out some new way to survive, otherwise they will vanish.

>> Yes, quite a few newspapers have vanished.

>>> We can expect them to fight very hard, and
>>> possibly 'dirty', to preserve themselves.

>> And we are able to strip the DRM when we choose to do that.

> Imposing DRM merely indicates their intention that
> the contract with you that you will not make any
> copies, will be enforced by them in any way they can.

And those of use with even half a clue know
that there is very little they can actually do to
enforce anything even when they have got some
jurisdictions to make removing the DRM illegal.

> Breaking the DRM is your indication that
> you intend to breach your contract with them

No, it is actually me showing that there is no contract
with them at all, and that I choose to treat that ebook
in the same way that I am legally entitled to do with
the book.

> - and evidence that you have done so.

Nope. There is no contract at all.

> Imposing DRM on a file isn't the 'dirty' part of the fight, it's
> just the notice that the fight will be on if you choose to start it.

And is just pure bluff because there is no way that they will ever
know whether I have stripped the DRM or who stripped the DRM.

> This is not something readers will tolerate for long,

Plenty of us don’t tolerate it now, we strip the DRM and make
an obscene gesture in the general direction of the publisher.

> but it is what the publishers are doing for now.  Until they find a
> better less combative way of making a living - or stop living at all

Or just get to wear people like me stripping the DRM and accept
the fact that there is nothing they can do about that and that the
DRM only affects those who are not prepared to strip it or don’t
know how to do that and who are too stupid to ask how to do that.

> - this is the situation we all have to be aware of for now.

And plenty of us just strip the DRM and carry on regardless.

> There were "luddites" in the early stages of the industrial revolution
> when producers found themselves being replaced by machines.  We are
> now in the early stages of a digital revolution, and again some people
> are finding their livelihoods threatened or vanishing so they try to 
> resist;

And will be just as unsuccessful as those who made buggy whips.

There are still some who do, but it’s a tiny subset of those who used to.

> this time, the most threatened are corporations and their employees
> and investors rather than individual craftsmen and they can't just smash
> the new machines - but they are finding other ways to be neo-luddites.

And won't ever be able to make their material uncopyable.

> Sometimes it feels as though the neo-luddites are fighting their
> own customers, when they should really be trying to adapt to
> the new realities.  There will be casualties; try not to be one.

I know that I will never be one because not only is there no
contract, they won't even know when I have stripped their DRM. 

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Thread

Re: ebooks RS Wood <rsw@therandymon.com> - 2014-03-23 12:06 +0000
  Re: ebooks "Stanley Daniel de Liver" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2014-03-23 12:11 +0000
    Re: ebooks Whiskers <catwheezel@operamail.com> - 2014-03-23 14:43 +0000
      Re: ebooks Hils <hils@saynotospam.net> - 2014-03-23 16:14 +0000
      Re: ebooks root <NoEMail@home.org> - 2014-03-23 18:09 +0000
        Re: ebooks "Stanley Daniel de Liver" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2014-03-23 19:21 +0000
        Re: ebooks Whiskers <catwheezel@operamail.com> - 2014-03-23 20:34 +0000
          Re: ebooks Alan Bowler <atbowler@thinkage.ca> - 2014-06-13 14:14 -0400
            Re: ebooks "Stanley Daniel de Liver" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2014-06-13 21:44 +0100
            Re: ebooks Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2014-06-13 16:53 -0400
              Re: ebooks Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2014-06-14 08:37 +0100
                Re: ebooks Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2014-06-14 18:34 -0400
                Re: ebooks RS Wood <rsw@therandymon.com> - 2014-06-15 10:40 +0000
                Re: ebooks "Stanley Daniel de Liver" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2014-06-15 12:05 +0100
                Re: ebooks Bob Eager <news0002@eager.cx> - 2014-06-15 11:20 +0000
                Re: ebooks "Stanley Daniel de Liver" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2014-06-15 12:37 +0100
                Re: ebooks root <NoEMail@home.org> - 2014-06-15 17:48 +0000
                Re: ebooks Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2014-06-15 15:59 -0400
                Re: ebooks "Oeter Johns" <oj19854@nospam.com> - 2014-06-16 06:30 +1000
                Re: ebooks Andy Leighton <andyl@azaal.plus.com> - 2014-06-16 04:04 -0500
                Re: ebooks Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2014-06-16 11:44 +0000
                Re: ebooks Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2014-06-16 10:32 -0400
                Re: ebooks Andy Leighton <andyl@azaal.plus.com> - 2014-06-16 10:43 -0500
                Re: ebooks Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2014-06-16 13:13 -0400
                Re: ebooks "Oeter Johns" <oj19854@nospam.com> - 2014-06-17 06:45 +1000
                Re: ebooks "Oeter Johns" <oj19854@nospam.com> - 2014-06-17 06:36 +1000
                Re: ebooks RS Wood <rsw@therandymon.com> - 2014-06-15 22:43 +0000
                Re: ebooks Bob Eager <news0002@eager.cx> - 2014-06-15 23:26 +0000
                Re: ebooks "Stanley Daniel de Liver" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2014-06-16 22:01 +0100
              Re: ebooks "Oeter Johns" <oj19854@nospam.com> - 2014-06-15 06:27 +1000
      Re: ebooks "Stanley Daniel de Liver" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2014-03-23 19:09 +0000
      Re: ebooks Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2014-03-24 01:55 +0000
        Re: ebooks Whiskers <catwheezel@operamail.com> - 2014-03-24 10:35 +0000
          Re: ebooks Peter Flass <Peter_Flass@Yahoo.com> - 2014-03-24 13:01 -0400
            Re: ebooks Dag-Erling Smørgrav <des@des.no> - 2014-03-24 17:15 +0100
          Re: ebooks Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2014-03-24 15:07 +0000
            Re: ebooks Rich <rich@example.com> - 2014-03-24 17:13 +0000
              Re: ebooks Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2014-03-24 13:07 -0500
                Re: ebooks "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2014-03-24 13:28 -0500
                Re: ebooks Paul Sture <nospam@sture.ch> - 2014-03-24 21:48 +0100
                Re: ebooks Whiskers <catwheezel@operamail.com> - 2014-03-24 22:57 +0000
                Re: ebooks "Lanto J." <lantoj78@gmail.com> - 2014-03-25 08:14 +1100
                Re: ebooks Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2014-03-25 00:01 +0000
                Re: ebooks "Lanto J." <lantoj78@gmail.com> - 2014-03-26 07:17 +1100
                Re: ebooks Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2014-03-25 23:44 +0000
                Re: ebooks "Lanto J." <lantoj78@gmail.com> - 2014-03-26 12:01 +1100
                Re: ebooks Whiskers <catwheezel@operamail.com> - 2014-03-26 13:36 +0000
                Re: ebooks "Stanley Daniel de Liver" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2014-03-26 20:08 +0000
                Re: ebooks Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2014-03-24 14:48 -0400
                Re: ebooks Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz <spamtrap@library.lspace.org.invalid> - 2014-03-25 18:13 -0400
                Re: ebooks Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2014-03-27 01:20 -0400
                Re: ebooks Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2014-03-25 05:49 +0000
                Re: ebooks Hils <hils@saynotospam.net> - 2014-03-25 07:06 +0000
                Re: ebooks Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2014-03-25 08:19 -0500
                Re: ebooks Walter Bushell <proto@panix.com> - 2014-03-25 09:40 -0400
                Re: ebooks "Slp" <slp0987@nospam.com> - 2014-03-26 11:14 +1100
                Re: ebooks Peter Flass <Peter_Flass@Yahoo.com> - 2014-03-25 15:42 -0400
                Re: ebooks Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2014-03-25 11:47 -0500
                Re: ebooks Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz <spamtrap@library.lspace.org.invalid> - 2014-03-25 19:25 -0400
                Re: ebooks Peter Flass <Peter_Flass@Yahoo.com> - 2014-03-26 12:19 -0400
                Re: ebooks Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2014-03-26 08:25 -0500
                Re: ebooks Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz <spamtrap@library.lspace.org.invalid> - 2014-03-26 16:01 -0400
                Re: ebooks RS Wood <rsw@therandymon.com> - 2014-03-26 20:38 +0000
                Re: ebooks "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2014-03-27 08:19 +1100
                Re: ebooks Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2014-03-26 15:58 -0500
                Re: ebooks Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz <spamtrap@library.lspace.org.invalid> - 2014-03-27 06:28 -0400
                Re: ebooks Dag-Erling Smørgrav <des@des.no> - 2014-03-26 22:03 +0100
                Re: ebooks Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2014-03-27 00:46 -0400
                Re: ebooks "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2014-03-26 15:01 -0500
                Re: ebooks scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2014-03-26 20:57 +0000
                Re: ebooks "Stanley Daniel de Liver" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2014-03-27 13:23 +0000
                Re: ebooks Paul Sture <nospam@sture.ch> - 2014-03-27 17:48 +0100
                Re: ebooks Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2014-03-27 08:26 -0500
                Re: ebooks greymausg <maus@mail.com> - 2014-03-27 14:55 +0000
                Re: ebooks "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2014-03-27 10:05 -0500
                Re: ebooks Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2014-03-27 11:55 -0500
                Re: ebooks "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2014-03-27 14:25 -0500
                Re: ebooks scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2014-03-27 20:44 +0000
                Re: ebooks Johny B Good <johnny-b-good@invalid.ntlworld.com> - 2014-03-28 01:38 +0000
                Re: ebooks "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2014-03-27 22:37 -0500
                Re: ebooks Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2014-03-27 23:52 -0400
                Re: ebooks "Slp" <slp0987@nospam.com> - 2014-03-28 16:07 +1100
                Re: ebooks Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2014-03-28 10:52 -0500
                Re: ebooks "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2014-03-28 11:57 -0500
                Re: ebooks Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2014-03-28 14:41 -0500
                Re: ebooks Whiskers <catwheezel@operamail.com> - 2014-03-28 21:27 +0000
                Re: ebooks "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2014-03-28 17:02 -0500
                Re: ebooks Peter Flass <Peter_Flass@Yahoo.com> - 2014-03-28 23:46 -0400
                Re: ebooks Philip Shaw <jnufcvyvuc@tznvy.pbz> - 2014-04-02 01:32 +0000
                Re: ebooks Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2014-04-02 14:28 +0000
                Re: ebooks Philip Shaw <jnufcvyvuc@tznvy.pbz> - 2014-04-07 05:32 +0000
                Re: ebooks "John" <j@j.j> - 2014-04-17 16:36 -0700
                Re: ebooks "Charlie Gibbs" <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2014-04-02 07:31 -0800
                Re: ebooks scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2014-03-26 13:38 +0000
                Re: ebooks Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2014-03-26 11:14 -0500
                Re: ebooks Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2014-03-27 00:56 -0400
                Re: ebooks Clark G <clarkm.geimsler@ieeemmm.org> - 2014-03-27 16:52 +0000
                Re: ebooks "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> - 2014-03-27 14:03 -0500
                Re: ebooks Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2014-03-27 23:07 -0400
                Re: ebooks Paul Sture <nospam@sture.ch> - 2014-03-27 21:44 +0100
                Re: ebooks Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2014-03-26 13:51 +0000
                Re: ebooks "Charlie Gibbs" <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2014-03-26 09:22 -0800
                Re: ebooks "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> - 2014-03-26 13:54 -0500
                Re: ebooks davidmylastname@acm.org (David Griffith) - 2014-03-27 03:41 +0000
                Re: ebooks Walter Bushell <proto@panix.com> - 2014-03-27 07:36 -0400
                Re: ebooks Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz <spamtrap@library.lspace.org.invalid> - 2014-03-28 03:40 -0400
                Re: ebooks Paul Sture <nospam@sture.ch> - 2014-03-27 17:59 +0100
                Re: ebooks Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2014-03-26 15:38 -0700
                Re: ebooks Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2014-03-26 22:09 -0400
                Re: ebooks "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> - 2014-03-27 13:55 -0500
                Re: ebooks Johny B Good <johnny-b-good@invalid.ntlworld.com> - 2014-03-28 02:27 +0000
                Re: ebooks cb@bobby.df.lth.se (Christian Brunschen) - 2014-03-28 10:42 +0000
                Re: ebooks Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2014-03-27 23:12 -0400
                Re: ebooks Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2014-03-28 23:17 -0700
                Re: ebooks Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz <spamtrap@library.lspace.org.invalid> - 2014-03-26 16:06 -0400
                Re: ebooks "Charlie Gibbs" <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2014-03-26 09:19 -0800
                Re: ebooks "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> - 2014-03-26 13:50 -0500
                Re: ebooks Hils <hils@saynotospam.net> - 2014-03-26 20:00 +0000
                Re: ebooks "Charlie Gibbs" <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2014-03-26 13:30 -0800
                Re: ebooks Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2014-03-26 15:51 -0500
                Re: ebooks Will Honea <whonea@whonea.net> - 2014-03-26 13:09 -0600
                Re: ebooks Peter Flass <Peter_Flass@Yahoo.com> - 2014-03-26 19:23 -0400
                Re: ebooks "Slp" <slp0987@nospam.com> - 2014-03-27 08:12 +1100
                Re: ebooks despen@verizon.net (Dan.Espen) - 2014-03-26 19:24 -0400
                Re: ebooks Johny B Good <johnny-b-good@invalid.ntlworld.com> - 2014-03-26 23:40 +0000
                Re: ebooks Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz <spamtrap@library.lspace.org.invalid> - 2014-03-27 06:36 -0400
                Knuth/TeX (was Re: ebooks) RS Wood <rsw@therandymon.com> - 2014-03-27 14:33 +0000
                Re: Knuth/TeX (was Re: ebooks) "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> - 2014-03-27 14:01 -0500
                Re: ebooks rpw3@rpw3.org (Rob Warnock) - 2014-03-27 03:10 +0000
                Re: ebooks Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2014-03-25 08:19 -0500
                Re: ebooks Whiskers <catwheezel@operamail.com> - 2014-03-25 15:16 +0000
                Re: ebooks Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2014-03-25 13:32 +0000
                Re: ebooks RS Wood <rsw@therandymon.com> - 2014-03-25 15:20 +0000
                Re: ebooks Peter Flass <Peter_Flass@Yahoo.com> - 2014-03-25 15:49 -0400
                Re: ebooks RS Wood <rsw@therandymon.com> - 2014-03-25 15:58 +0000
                Re: ebooks Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2014-03-27 01:46 -0400
                Re: ebooks "Charlie Gibbs" <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2014-03-25 08:48 -0800
                Re: ebooks RS Wood <rsw@therandymon.com> - 2014-03-25 21:20 +0000
                Re: ebooks "Slp" <slp0987@nospam.com> - 2014-03-26 07:31 +1100
                Re: ebooks Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz <spamtrap@library.lspace.org.invalid> - 2014-03-25 08:42 -0400
              Re: ebooks Will Honea <whonea@whonea.net> - 2014-03-24 12:52 -0600
            Re: ebooks Peter Flass <Peter_Flass@Yahoo.com> - 2014-03-24 20:12 -0400
              Re: ebooks Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2014-03-24 15:54 -0500
              Re: ebooks Rob Myers <rob@robmyers.org> - 2014-03-24 22:19 +0000
            Re: ebooks "Slp" <slp0987@nospam.com> - 2014-03-25 07:54 +1100
          Re: ebooks scott@alfter.diespammersdie.us (Scott Alfter) - 2014-03-24 16:21 +0000
          Re: ebooks Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2014-03-24 17:02 +0000
            Re: ebooks Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2014-03-24 12:21 -0500
            Re: ebooks Bob Eager <news0002@eager.cx> - 2014-03-24 19:50 +0000
              Re: ebooks Whiskers <catwheezel@operamail.com> - 2014-03-24 22:48 +0000
                Re: ebooks Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2014-03-24 23:42 +0000
                Re: ebooks Whiskers <catwheezel@operamail.com> - 2014-03-25 15:07 +0000
                Re: ebooks Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2014-03-25 23:40 +0000
                Re: ebooks Dag-Erling Smørgrav <des@des.no> - 2014-03-26 21:57 +0100
                Re: ebooks Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2014-03-28 13:58 +0000
                Re: ebooks Dag-Erling Smørgrav <des@des.no> - 2014-03-28 15:44 +0100
                Re: ebooks "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2014-03-26 11:35 +1100
          Re: ebooks "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2014-03-25 07:28 +1100
            Re: ebooks Whiskers <catwheezel@operamail.com> - 2014-03-24 22:31 +0000
              Re: ebooks Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2014-03-25 00:06 +0000
              Re: ebooks "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2014-03-26 07:06 +1100
          Re: ebooks Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz <spamtrap@library.lspace.org.invalid> - 2014-03-24 10:25 -0400
      Re: ebooks Mike Sanders <mike@taco-shack.cow> - 2014-03-24 06:04 +0000
      Re: ebooks Paul Sture <nospam@sture.ch> - 2014-03-26 13:17 +0100
  Re: ebooks Peter Flass <Peter_Flass@Yahoo.com> - 2014-03-23 19:23 -0400

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