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Groups > comp.lang.c > #109626
| From | Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> |
|---|---|
| Newsgroups | comp.lang.c |
| Subject | Re: Rape in the Bible [was: Re: Why is Jesus the only way?] |
| Date | 2017-05-09 13:00 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <D5376DFD.A4407%usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> (permalink) |
| References | (12 earlier) <50c18920-b380-43fa-bd10-444945d6f02d@googlegroups.com> <D5300EA6.A35A4%usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> <20170507160840.4ea045a8bdb6462c349a41d5@gmail.com> <D534B911.A3E75%usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> <20170509223518.1b604fb434ac5de3e13bbfed@gmail.com> |
On 5/9/17, 12:35 PM, in article 20170509223518.1b604fb434ac5de3e13bbfed@gmail.com, "Anton Shepelev" <anton.txt@gmail.com> wrote: > Snit to Anton Shepelev: > >>>> Deuteronomy 22:28-29а: >>>> >>>> If a man is caught in the act of raping a >>>> young woman who is not engaged, he must pay >>>> fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then >>>> he must marry the young woman because he >>>> violated her, and he will never be allowed >>>> to divorce her. >>>> >>>> Yeah: the bible says a rapist must pay fifty pieces of silver and then the >>>> ictim is forced to marry the rapist. >>>> >>> No, the rapist is forced to marry the victim. >>> >> I do not see the hair you are splitting. They are forced to marry each other. >> That is reprehensible. >> > My point here is that in those days it would be unthinkable for a woman to > refuse this marriage because her only alternative was to be forlorn for the > rest her life and either die of hunger or become a slave or a prostitute. > "Prince Amnon raped his half-sister, Tamar. The horror and shame of being > violated yet unmarried made Tamar beg him to marry her (her half-brother!), > even after he had rejected her." > > The Jews, as many other ancient cultures, believed in a sort of Telegony and > considered a raped woman a contaminated vessel. Nobody would take her for a > wife. By forcing the man to marry her the law made sure she would not be a > social outcast. I get the society was different... but to defend the GENERAL principle that a raped woman has to marry her rapist and be subjected to being raped over and over and over and over is NOT moral. Any book which pushes this idea is simply not moral. >>> Looks like a genuine anti-rape law to me >>> >> Forcing a victim of rape to marry the rapist is NOT an anti-rape law in ay >> way, shape, or form. It is repulsive and very pro-rape. It encourages rape >> foe any man who wants to marry a woman who has rejected him. >> > If the rapist is a brain-damaged sexual maniac, who takes pleausure in the > very act of rape, then the law works against him, for he must have a new > woman, often a virgin, every time. Burdening such a rapist with family bounds > will make him most unhappy. Rewarding a rapist with treating his victim as property and granted her to him as a wife is NOT a punishment, even if it not everything he might want. It is a HUGE reward. > If the rapist is a man overcome with passion for that certain woman, then the > prospect of having to live with, and care for, a woman who does not love him, > and will likely hate him after the rape, seems rather depressing as well and > should cool him down. Ah, giving him the object of desire (and she is being treated as an object) to have his way time and time again is NOT a punishment. >> Just rape her and she is FORCED to marry him. >> > You are inverting that phrase again. The man is the forced party "because he > hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days." They are forced to marry each other. There is no "inversion" there. >>> that will make any man think twice before attempting a rape, because that >>> may be the last rape in his life, and the last woman in his life. >>> >> A man rapes someone, is caught, and is forced to marry his victim... and you >> think he will not rape her again? Of course he will. Again and again and >> again. For years. >> > I think he won't, because in the absence of love, such coercive circumstances > and lack of any sport kill sexual desire in a man, whereas the mad beast of a > serial rapist deamnds a virgin every time. So a rapist given full legal "rights" to rape the same person again and again, and placed in a house with her, and who has his victim forced to marry him, will suddenly decide to NOT rape her again? That is a fairy tale. Of course he will. >> Or do you think once the victim is forced to marry her rapist she will >> suddenly find true love and accept him willingly? >> > No, but see the story of Tamar and Ramnon. Nothing was needed after the "no". >>> It is also quite expensive and has serious consequences. >>> >> Expensive! >> > I am not sure how much it is, but the fee serves an additional discouragement > from rape. Cynical though it may seem, if this reduced the number rapes, it > worked. If you have raped a virgin and don't have fifty sheckels at hand, you > are in for more trouble than forced marriage! Ah, forcing a rape victim to marry her rapist and then be raped over and over and over is, somehow, going to reduce the number of rapes (?) and that makes it moral. Again, this is just rubbish. >> Poor guy... he rapes a woman and is then "given" her like she was a hunk of >> meat where he can rape her over and over and over and you are concerned it >> might cost him some money to be married to her! >> > Not quite. I think that law *prevented* rape, so that your post-factum > sentiments do not apply. Rewarding the rapist with a woman he can rape over and over and over is NOT preventing rape, no matter how many times you try to twist it as such. >> From the page you linked to: >> >> Tarico was critical of Deuteronomy 22:28-29, >> saying that "The punishments for rape have to >> do not with compassion or trauma to the woman >> herself but with honor, tribal purity, and a >> sense that a used woman is damaged goods." > > That is only partly true. It is exactly true that this is from the page you linked to. > The forcing of the rapist to marry the victim is an > act of care for the the latter, who would otherwise be doomed to misery and/or > prostitution. Forcing a victim of rape to marry her rapist where she will be raped over and over again is NOT an "act of care". >> Cheryl Anderson, in her book Ancient Laws and Contemporary Controversies: >> The Need for Inclusive Bible Interpretation, discusses an anecdote about a >> student, who, when exposed to the passages in Deuteronomy, said that "This is >> the word of God. If it says slavery is okay, slavery is okay. If it says rape >> is okay, rape is okay."[33] >> > But it does not say so. It DOES say slavery is OK. >> Elaborating on this, she states in response to these passages, "Clearly, >> these laws do not take into account the female's perspective. After a rape, >> [the victim] would undoubtedly see herself as the injured party and would >> probably find marriage to her rapist to be distasteful, to say the least. >> > Wrong. Not wrong at all. A rape victim is going to be VERY unlikely to want to MARRY her rapist. > See again the story of Tamar and Amnon. Anderson takes a modern perspective > and forgets that it is only thanks to men that in the 21st century in many > countries a pretty woman can walk in a street alone at night without fear. Two > thousand years ago the situation was different, and so was the social position > of the woman. She could not survive without a man's care. Again: I am talking about the words of the bible and how moral they are... yes, I get society was different in the past. Does not make the ideas there moral. >> Arguably, there are cultural and historical reasons why such a law made >> sense at the time. >> > That's it. But that does not make it a good moral guide for NOW. ... >> Spero added that a rape victim could "opt out" of marrying her rapist if she >> so desired, for, "if not, men could forcibly bring to altar any single woman >> he desired simply by raping her." >> > How do you know? Have you studied ancient Jewish law? Why do you accuse Rabbi > Spero of lying? I am going by what the bible says... and it is CLEARLY not a good moral guide for today. It is a horrid one. -- Personal attacks from those who troll show their own insecurity. They cannot use reason to show the message to be wrong so they try to feel somehow superior by attacking the messenger. They cling to their attacks and ignore the message time and time again. <https://youtu.be/H4NW-Cqh308>
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Re: Why is Jesus the only way? Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2017-05-01 13:43 -0700
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Re: Why is Jesus the only way? Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2017-05-01 13:41 -0700
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Re: Why is Jesus the only way? Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2017-05-04 11:10 -0700
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Re: Why is Jesus the only way? Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2017-05-04 19:42 -0700
Rape in the Bible [was: Re: Why is Jesus the only way?] Anton Shepelev <anton.txt@gmail.com> - 2017-05-07 16:08 +0300
Re: Rape in the Bible [was: Re: Why is Jesus the only way?] BruceS <bruces42@hotmail.com> - 2017-05-07 08:54 -0600
Re: Rape in the Bible [was: Re: Why is Jesus the only way?] "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2017-05-07 10:06 -0700
Re: Rape in the Bible [was: Re: Why is Jesus the only way?] Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2017-05-07 11:34 -0700
Re: Rape in the Bible [was: Re: Why is Jesus the only way?] "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2017-05-07 10:12 -0700
Re: Rape in the Bible [was: Re: Why is Jesus the only way?] Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2017-05-07 11:27 -0700
Re: Rape in the Bible [was: Re: Why is Jesus the only way?] Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2017-05-07 11:53 -0700
Re: Rape in the Bible [was: Re: Why is Jesus the only way?] joel.rees@gmail.com - 2017-05-07 18:35 -0700
Re: Rape in the Bible [was: Re: Why is Jesus the only way?] Melzzzzz <Melzzzzz@zzzzz.com> - 2017-05-08 02:07 +0000
Re: Rape in the Bible [was: Re: Why is Jesus the only way?] "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2017-05-07 19:36 -0700
Re: Rape in the Bible [was: Re: Why is Jesus the only way?] Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2017-05-07 20:02 -0700
Re: Rape in the Bible [was: Re: Why is Jesus the only way?] Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2017-05-07 20:01 -0700
Re: Rape in the Bible [was: Re: Why is Jesus the only way?] Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2017-05-07 20:01 -0700
Re: Rape in the Bible [was: Re: Why is Jesus the only way?] Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2017-05-07 11:44 -0700
Re: Rape in the Bible [was: Re: Why is Jesus the only way?] Anton Shepelev <anton.txt@gmail.com> - 2017-05-09 22:35 +0300
Re: Rape in the Bible [was: Re: Why is Jesus the only way?] Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2017-05-09 13:00 -0700
Re: Why is Jesus the only way? joel.rees@gmail.com - 2017-05-03 22:08 -0700
Re: Why is Jesus the only way? "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2017-05-04 04:16 -0700
Re: Why is Jesus the only way? Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2017-05-03 22:44 -0700
Re: Why is Jesus the only way? "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2017-05-04 04:21 -0700
Re: Why is Jesus the only way? Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2017-05-04 11:12 -0700
Re: Why is Jesus the only way? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2017-05-03 18:37 -0700
Re: Why is Jesus the only way? Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2017-05-03 22:42 -0700
Re: Why is Jesus the only way? Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2017-05-04 09:33 +0100
Re: Why is Jesus the only way? "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2017-05-04 04:53 -0700
Re: Why is Jesus the only way? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-05-04 15:08 +0200
Re: Why is Jesus the only way? Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2017-05-04 14:51 +0100
Re: Why is Jesus the only way? "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2017-05-04 09:18 -0700
Re: Why is Jesus the only way? Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2017-05-04 11:18 -0700
Re: Why is Jesus the only way? "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2017-05-04 12:13 -0700
Re: Why is Jesus the only way? "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2017-05-04 12:27 -0700
Re: Why is Jesus the only way? "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2017-05-04 13:02 -0700
Re: Why is Jesus the only way? "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2017-05-04 13:20 -0700
Re: Why is Jesus the only way? Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2017-05-04 19:48 -0700
Re: Why is Jesus the only way? Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2017-05-04 19:47 -0700
Re: Why is Jesus the only way? Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2017-05-04 19:44 -0700
Re: Why is Jesus the only way? "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2017-05-07 19:55 -0700
Re: Why is Jesus the only way? "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2017-05-07 20:09 -0700
Re: Why is Jesus the only way? Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2017-05-07 20:37 -0700
Re: Why is Jesus the only way? Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2017-05-07 20:36 -0700
Re: Why is Jesus the only way? "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2017-05-07 22:14 -0700
Re: Why is Jesus the only way? "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2017-05-08 03:59 -0700
Re: Why is Jesus the only way? Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2017-05-08 11:10 -0700
Re: Why is Jesus the only way? Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2017-05-08 11:07 -0700
Why is Jesus the only way? cpascoshi@gmail.com - 2017-05-04 09:45 -0700
Re: Why is Jesus the only way? "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2017-05-09 13:55 -0700
Re: Why is Jesus the only way? "max.muster@picca.de" <dominic.ernst91@gmail.com> - 2017-05-11 02:42 -0700
Re: Why is Jesus the only way? "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2017-05-11 03:27 -0700
Re: Why is Jesus the only way? Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2017-05-11 09:12 -0700
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