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Re: Asking DPL to shorten Discussion Period for rms-open-letter

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On 26/03/2021 05:56, Jonas Smedegaard wrote:
>>>> - I don't like the term "cancel" because I think it doesn't mean 
>>>> much anymore and is too loaded.
>>>
>>> Means too little and too much at the same time?!?
>>>
>>> https://www.dictionary.com/e/pop-culture/cancel-culture/ describes 
>>> it as a form of boycott, calling out, and group shaming.

In the United States, "cancel culture" is a bit over-used as a term, to
the point of being somewhat meaningless.

It comes with the connotation of being an overreaction, etc. Whereas,
well, sometimes we're just talking about people facing consequences for
their behaviour.

>>>> Are we discussing a handful of people leaving volunteer positions? 
>>>> Yes. Are we discussing ruining their lives? No.
>>>
>>> Are we disccussing public boycott and shaming? Yes.
>>>
>>> Do public boycott and shaming ruin lives?  Hopefully not, but I 
>>> wonder how you can so confidently dismiss both the term as being 
>>> meaningless and the action as being harmless.  Shame on you for not 
>>> taking responsibility for your action.
>> Did you just "shame" someone because they supposedly call on "shaming" 
>> someone else? Isn't that a contradiction?
> 
> No.  I shame someone for reframing an act of group shaming as harmless.

Don't call for shame on your fellow Debian developers while putting
words in their mouth. mdb's mail didn't assert it's "harmless" --
instead that it wasn't tantamount to "ruining their lives".

Obviously, there's an adverse impact to an individual in no longer
holding a volunteer position of prominence. But the letter didn't
advocate for the board members to be fired from their other employment,
or seek to make them pariahs in the free software community.

> I find it distasteful for Debian to *judge* activities in related 
> organisations.
> 
> Stating that "[RMS] has shown himself to be misogynist, ableist, and 
> transphobic" is treating allegations (arguably very strong allegations 
> but still not proven in a court of law) as it it was facts.

These aren't justiciable issues in America. Being a misogynist isn't a
crime.

Myself, I signed this letter based on both public information and the
numerous times I've heard, unprompted, stories from women and
female-presenting people who have had uncomfortable / creepy experiences
with Stallman, in the Debian / free software community, the MIT
community, and elsewhere.

I have heard first-hand stories from women who were new to the Free
Software movement and, at a conference, were excited to meet its leader
-- only to be hit on by Richard and invited back to continue the
conversation at a residence. These people did not stay in the Free
Software movement, and our community is poorer for it.

None of those incidents would have turned into a police report, and I'm
not demanding that you rely on it. But it comes up so frequently at
conferences, student clubs, and bar chats from so many different people
that I have little reason to doubt its veracity.

It's also interesting to note that over 12 former FSF staff, who worked
directly with Richard, also saw it fit to sign the letter.

Cheers,
Luke Faraone (they/them)

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Re: Asking DPL to shorten Discussion Period for rms-open-letter Thomas Goirand <zigo@debian.org> - 2021-03-24 23:40 +0100
  Re: Asking DPL to shorten Discussion Period for rms-open-letter M dB <deblanc@riseup.net> - 2021-03-25 00:20 +0100
    Re: Asking DPL to shorten Discussion Period for rms-open-letter Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2021-03-25 00:50 +0100
      Re: Asking DPL to shorten Discussion Period for rms-open-letter Antoine Beaupré <anarcat@debian.org> - 2021-03-25 20:30 +0100
        Re: Asking DPL to shorten Discussion Period for rms-open-letter Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2021-03-26 14:00 +0100
          Re: Asking DPL to shorten Discussion Period for rms-open-letter Luke W Faraone <lfaraone@debian.org> - 2021-03-26 22:40 +0100
            Re: Asking DPL to shorten Discussion Period for rms-open-letter Enrico Zini <enrico@enricozini.org> - 2021-03-27 10:10 +0100
              Re: Asking DPL to shorten Discussion Period for rms-open-letter Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2021-03-27 10:50 +0100
                Re: Asking DPL to shorten Discussion Period for rms-open-letter Martin Steigerwald <martin@lichtvoll.de> - 2021-03-27 11:10 +0100
                Re: Asking DPL to shorten Discussion Period for rms-open-letter Pierre-Elliott Bécue <peb@debian.org> - 2021-03-27 11:10 +0100
                Re: Asking DPL to shorten Discussion Period for rms-open-letter Martin Steigerwald <martin@lichtvoll.de> - 2021-03-27 11:20 +0100
                Re: Asking DPL to shorten Discussion Period for rms-open-letter Martin Steigerwald <martin@lichtvoll.de> - 2021-03-27 11:30 +0100
                Re: Asking DPL to shorten Discussion Period for rms-open-letter Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2021-03-27 13:10 +0100
                Re: Asking DPL to shorten Discussion Period for rms-open-letter Wouter Verhelst <wouter@debian.org> - 2021-03-27 18:30 +0100
                Re: Asking DPL to shorten Discussion Period for rms-open-letter Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2021-03-27 23:50 +0100
                Re: Asking DPL to shorten Discussion Period for rms-open-letter Wouter Verhelst <wouter@debian.org> - 2021-03-28 08:20 +0200
                Re: Asking DPL to shorten Discussion Period for rms-open-letter Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2021-03-28 14:10 +0200
                Re: Asking DPL to shorten Discussion Period for rms-open-letter Felix Lechner <felix.lechner@lease-up.com> - 2021-03-28 17:20 +0200
                Re: Asking DPL to shorten Discussion Period for rms-open-letter Eduard Bloch <edi@gmx.de> - 2021-03-28 23:00 +0200
                Re: Asking DPL to shorten Discussion Period for rms-open-letter Pierre-Elliott Bécue <peb@debian.org> - 2021-03-28 20:40 +0200
                Re: Asking DPL to shorten Discussion Period for rms-open-letter Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2021-03-28 21:00 +0200
                Re: Asking DPL to shorten Discussion Period for rms-open-letter Pierre-Elliott Bécue <peb@debian.org> - 2021-03-28 23:00 +0200
                Re: Asking DPL to shorten Discussion Period for rms-open-letter Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2021-03-29 00:00 +0200
                Re: Asking DPL to shorten Discussion Period for rms-open-letter Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2021-03-29 00:40 +0200
                Re: Asking DPL to shorten Discussion Period for rms-open-letter Milan Kupcevic <milan@debian.org> - 2021-03-29 01:10 +0200
                Re: Asking DPL to shorten Discussion Period for rms-open-letter Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2021-03-29 01:20 +0200
    Re: Asking DPL to shorten Discussion Period for rms-open-letter Ansgar <ansgar@debian.org> - 2021-03-25 14:40 +0100
    Re: Asking DPL to shorten Discussion Period for rms-open-letter Thomas Hochstein <thh@thh.name> - 2021-03-26 00:50 +0100

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