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Re: Asking DPL to shorten Discussion Period for rms-open-letter

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Hi Anarcat,

Quoting Antoine Beaupré (2021-03-25 20:11:45)
> Hey what's up doc,
> 
> On 2021-03-25 00:41:41, Jonas Smedegaard wrote:
> > Quoting M dB (2021-03-24 23:55:23)
> >> A few thoughts:
> >> 
> >> - I don't like the term "cancel" because I think it doesn't mean 
> >> much anymore and is too loaded.
> >
> > Means too little and too much at the same time?!?
> >
> > https://www.dictionary.com/e/pop-culture/cancel-culture/ describes 
> > it as a form of boycott, calling out, and group shaming.
> >
> > Wikipedia seems to share that view - what am I missing? Am I in some 
> > bubble confirming my views, and other bubbles tell radically 
> > different storis about the meaning of the term?
> >
> >
> >> Are we discussing a handful of people leaving volunteer positions? 
> >> Yes. Are we discussing ruining their lives? No.
> >
> > Are we disccussing public boycott and shaming? Yes.
> >
> > Do public boycott and shaming ruin lives?  Hopefully not, but I 
> > wonder how you can so confidently dismiss both the term as being 
> > meaningless and the action as being harmless.  Shame on you for not 
> > taking responsibility for your action.
> 
> Did you just "shame" someone because they supposedly call on "shaming" 
> someone else? Isn't that a contradiction?

No.  I shame someone for reframing an act of group shaming as harmless.


> > I get a strong impression that this RMS felow is far from a saint, 
> > and encourage that he be properly tried for his alleged wrongdoings.
> 
> So basically, what you are proposing is that, instead of suggesting 
> RMS simply be expelled from a non-profit, all the witnesses and 
> victims of his crimes should collectively organise for him to be 
> criminally prosecuted in a court of law in the United States?
> 
> How would that not be public shaming?

Regardless of the shame involved in prosecution in a US court system, 
that does not legimitize group shaming.

I find it reasonable for Debian to distance itself from questionable 
activities in related organisations, but not to get involved in group 
shaming.

I find it distasteful for Debian to *judge* activities in related 
organisations.

Stating that "[RMS] has shown himself to be misogynist, ableist, and 
transphobic" is treating allegations (arguably very strong allegations 
but still not proven in a court of law) as it it was facts.


> Anyways, I think the point here is to get seconders, maybe we should 
> keep those arguments to the vote and move on. I hope I won't regret 
> outlining the contradictions here.

I think the point here is to discuss what should be on the ballot.


 - Jonas

-- 
 * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist & Internet-arkitekt
 * Tlf.: +45 40843136  Website: http://dr.jones.dk/

 [x] quote me freely  [ ] ask before reusing  [ ] keep private

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Re: Asking DPL to shorten Discussion Period for rms-open-letter Thomas Goirand <zigo@debian.org> - 2021-03-24 23:40 +0100
  Re: Asking DPL to shorten Discussion Period for rms-open-letter M dB <deblanc@riseup.net> - 2021-03-25 00:20 +0100
    Re: Asking DPL to shorten Discussion Period for rms-open-letter Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2021-03-25 00:50 +0100
      Re: Asking DPL to shorten Discussion Period for rms-open-letter Antoine Beaupré <anarcat@debian.org> - 2021-03-25 20:30 +0100
        Re: Asking DPL to shorten Discussion Period for rms-open-letter Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2021-03-26 14:00 +0100
          Re: Asking DPL to shorten Discussion Period for rms-open-letter Luke W Faraone <lfaraone@debian.org> - 2021-03-26 22:40 +0100
            Re: Asking DPL to shorten Discussion Period for rms-open-letter Enrico Zini <enrico@enricozini.org> - 2021-03-27 10:10 +0100
              Re: Asking DPL to shorten Discussion Period for rms-open-letter Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2021-03-27 10:50 +0100
                Re: Asking DPL to shorten Discussion Period for rms-open-letter Martin Steigerwald <martin@lichtvoll.de> - 2021-03-27 11:10 +0100
                Re: Asking DPL to shorten Discussion Period for rms-open-letter Pierre-Elliott Bécue <peb@debian.org> - 2021-03-27 11:10 +0100
                Re: Asking DPL to shorten Discussion Period for rms-open-letter Martin Steigerwald <martin@lichtvoll.de> - 2021-03-27 11:20 +0100
                Re: Asking DPL to shorten Discussion Period for rms-open-letter Martin Steigerwald <martin@lichtvoll.de> - 2021-03-27 11:30 +0100
                Re: Asking DPL to shorten Discussion Period for rms-open-letter Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2021-03-27 13:10 +0100
                Re: Asking DPL to shorten Discussion Period for rms-open-letter Wouter Verhelst <wouter@debian.org> - 2021-03-27 18:30 +0100
                Re: Asking DPL to shorten Discussion Period for rms-open-letter Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2021-03-27 23:50 +0100
                Re: Asking DPL to shorten Discussion Period for rms-open-letter Wouter Verhelst <wouter@debian.org> - 2021-03-28 08:20 +0200
                Re: Asking DPL to shorten Discussion Period for rms-open-letter Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2021-03-28 14:10 +0200
                Re: Asking DPL to shorten Discussion Period for rms-open-letter Felix Lechner <felix.lechner@lease-up.com> - 2021-03-28 17:20 +0200
                Re: Asking DPL to shorten Discussion Period for rms-open-letter Eduard Bloch <edi@gmx.de> - 2021-03-28 23:00 +0200
                Re: Asking DPL to shorten Discussion Period for rms-open-letter Pierre-Elliott Bécue <peb@debian.org> - 2021-03-28 20:40 +0200
                Re: Asking DPL to shorten Discussion Period for rms-open-letter Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2021-03-28 21:00 +0200
                Re: Asking DPL to shorten Discussion Period for rms-open-letter Pierre-Elliott Bécue <peb@debian.org> - 2021-03-28 23:00 +0200
                Re: Asking DPL to shorten Discussion Period for rms-open-letter Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2021-03-29 00:00 +0200
                Re: Asking DPL to shorten Discussion Period for rms-open-letter Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2021-03-29 00:40 +0200
                Re: Asking DPL to shorten Discussion Period for rms-open-letter Milan Kupcevic <milan@debian.org> - 2021-03-29 01:10 +0200
                Re: Asking DPL to shorten Discussion Period for rms-open-letter Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2021-03-29 01:20 +0200
    Re: Asking DPL to shorten Discussion Period for rms-open-letter Ansgar <ansgar@debian.org> - 2021-03-25 14:40 +0100
    Re: Asking DPL to shorten Discussion Period for rms-open-letter Thomas Hochstein <thh@thh.name> - 2021-03-26 00:50 +0100

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