Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0)

From	raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos)
Newsgroups	comp.lang.c
Subject	Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0)
Date	2016-10-23 13:24 +0000
Organization	Go wash your mouth.
Message-ID	<580cb80b.17353375@news.xs4all.nl> (permalink)
References	(1 earlier) <nttu4o$1fuc$1@gioia.aioe.org> <lnvawtgxb0.fsf@kst-u.example.com> <1b195986-62eb-4600-9723-1e45cafbc840@googlegroups.com> <580652f9.3303000@news.xs4all.nl> <dee3f944-a3d5-4a19-894e-842894704544@googlegroups.com>

Show all headers | View raw

supercat@casperkitty.com wrote:

> On Tuesday, October 18, 2016 at 11:55:09 AM UTC-5, Richard Bos wrote:
> > No, it doesn't, because if you arrange your code properly that
> > comparison would have been done in any case, not just for memcpy() but
> > for all the other code that uses that pointer. At least, I've never
> > written code that allocates a pointer, memcpy()s to it, and immediately
> > deallocates it; I've always done more with any single pointer, and
> > therefore, have always had to check for null in any case. The test is
> > not done specifically for the memcpy(); therefore, it is adding the test
> > inside memcpy() which wastes a comparison.
> 
> Obviously real code would do something with the object besides allocate it,
> use memcpy, and free it, but such other actions are irrelevant to the
> question of whether the memcpy cases we're discussing should be treated
> as defined. 

IMAO I just demonstrated why they're _not_ irrelevant: because they
consist of the majority of cases, and incur a potential (if uncommon)
penalty under your demands.

> In cases where code is building an object of size N+constant
> by combining a fixed part with N bytes read from somewhere else, there
> may not be any reason to regard the N==0 case as special.

And guess what? If you actually are building an _object_, so the
pointers are non-null, that case is perfectly defined already! The only
problem is when you're pretending to build a _non_-object, and handling
null pointers; but as I wrote earlier, you shouldn't be doing that in
the first place. You should be catching your nulls before you get to
memcpy().

> > > For how many real-world implementations of memcpy
> > 
> > Your favourite straw man again? Knock it off, already.
> 
> There are cases where treating memcpy(any,any,0) as a no-op regardless of
> the values of the pointers is useful.

Demonstrate one. One realistic(!) case where the _null_ pointer being
passed to memcpy() is better than the null pointer being caught early.

Remember, for valid non-null pointers the case is already defined, and
for _invalid_ non-null pointers your proposal would leave the behaviour
as undefined as it is now, so don't try to confuse the matter by
involving them. We're only interested in the importance of late-caught
null pointers.

> I would think it should be reasonable for programmers to expect that
> writers of quality compilers won't go out of their way to make their
> implementations less useful than they otherwise could be.

Nobody is suggesting that compiler writers write their optimisers
specifically to piss you off, except you.

> Perhaps you think programmers should expect compiler writers to go out
> of their way to make implementations less useful.

Yet another beautiful man of straw. You're good at these, aren't you?

No, I think programmers should write their code properly, so that it
doesn't matter.

> Otherwise do you see anything wrong with my logic if restricted to compilers
> whose authors are trying to make them as useful as practical?

Straw, straw, straw. Did your father immigrate from the land of Oz?

Richard

Thread

UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) Noob <root@127.0.0.1> - 2016-10-13 12:42 +0200
  Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2016-10-13 11:55 +0100
    Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) Noob <root@127.0.0.1> - 2016-10-13 13:09 +0200
      Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2016-10-13 12:22 +0100
        Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-10-13 12:22 -0700
          Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-10-13 12:32 -0700
            Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-10-13 12:34 -0700
    Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> - 2016-10-13 08:24 -0600
      Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2016-10-13 16:22 +0100
      Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) Noob <root@127.0.0.1> - 2016-10-13 17:49 +0200
        Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> - 2016-10-13 12:02 -0600
  Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) Lőrinczy Zsigmond <nospam@for.me> - 2016-10-15 20:56 +0200
    Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-10-15 12:52 -0700
    Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) "James R. Kuyper" <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2016-10-15 15:55 -0400
    Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-10-15 13:41 -0700
      Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) Lőrinczy Zsigmond <nospam@for.me> - 2016-10-16 11:17 +0200
        Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2016-10-16 10:26 +0100
        Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2016-10-16 09:55 +0000
          Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-10-16 08:44 -0400
            Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-10-17 10:06 +0200
              Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-10-17 09:06 -0400
                Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-10-17 16:29 +0200
                Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-10-17 17:05 -0400
                Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-10-18 11:19 +0200
                Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-10-18 08:04 -0700
                Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-10-18 16:27 -0400
            Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-10-17 08:59 -0700
              Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-10-17 11:21 -0700
                Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-10-17 13:42 -0700
                Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-10-17 14:46 -0700
                Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-10-17 15:52 -0700
                Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-10-17 16:43 -0700
                Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-10-18 08:00 -0700
                Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-10-18 09:14 -0700
                Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-10-18 09:43 -0700
                Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-10-18 11:31 -0700
                Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-10-18 12:49 -0700
                Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-10-18 12:03 -0700
              Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-10-17 17:06 -0400
                Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-10-17 14:55 -0700
        Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-10-16 11:23 -0700
      Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-10-17 08:49 -0700
        Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2016-10-18 16:54 +0000
          Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-10-18 11:09 -0700
            Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2016-10-23 13:24 +0000
              Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-10-24 09:28 -0700
              Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) <william@wilbur.25thandClement.com> - 2016-10-29 11:32 -0700
                Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-10-29 14:12 -0700
    Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-10-15 22:00 +0100
      Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-10-16 02:51 -0700
        Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-10-16 11:20 +0100
          Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-10-16 04:14 -0700
            Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-10-16 12:22 +0100
            Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2016-10-16 13:01 +0100
              Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-10-16 05:29 -0700
                Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-10-16 20:47 +0100
                Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-10-17 02:08 -0700
                Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-10-17 10:24 +0200
                Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-10-17 08:05 -0700
                Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-10-17 17:25 +0200
  Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) Lőrinczy Zsigmond <nospam@for.me> - 2016-10-17 17:08 +0200
    Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) Lorinczy Zsigmond <zsiga@nospam.for.me> - 2016-10-21 12:46 +0200
      Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-10-21 08:06 -0700
        Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) Lőrinczy Zsigmond <nospam@for.me> - 2016-10-21 18:30 +0200
          Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-10-21 09:34 -0700
            Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) Lőrinczy Zsigmond <nospam@for.me> - 2016-10-22 07:42 +0200
              Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2016-10-22 10:31 -0400
                Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) Lőrinczy Zsigmond <nospam@for.me> - 2016-10-22 17:49 +0200
                Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2016-10-22 13:43 -0700
                Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) Lőrinczy Zsigmond <nospam@for.me> - 2016-10-23 07:47 +0200
                Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) "James R. Kuyper" <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2016-10-23 11:07 -0400
                Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) Lőrinczy Zsigmond <nospam@for.me> - 2016-10-23 17:45 +0200
                Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) "James R. Kuyper" <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2016-10-23 12:16 -0400
                Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-10-24 07:38 -0700
                Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-10-24 08:38 -0700
                Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-10-24 09:44 -0700
                Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-10-23 12:22 -0700
                Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-10-23 13:37 -0700
                Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-10-23 14:15 -0700
                Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) Ike Naar <ike@iceland.freeshell.org> - 2016-10-24 06:11 +0000
                Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-10-24 00:58 -0700
                Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2016-10-23 14:07 -0700
                Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-10-24 07:48 -0700
                Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-10-24 08:40 -0700
                Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-10-24 10:03 -0700
                Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-10-24 12:06 -0700
                Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-10-24 13:36 -0700
                Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-10-24 13:57 -0700
                Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2016-10-24 14:16 -0700
                Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-10-24 17:23 -0700
                Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2016-10-25 07:57 -0700
                Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2016-10-22 18:23 -0400
                Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) "James R. Kuyper" <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2016-10-23 10:44 -0400
                Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2016-10-23 16:24 +0100
                Re: Verbing Noob <root@127.0.0.1> - 2016-10-23 18:02 +0200
        Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2016-10-23 13:26 +0000
          Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-10-23 07:40 -0700
      Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) asetofsymbols@gmail.com - 2016-10-21 23:56 -0700
        Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) Lőrinczy Zsigmond <nospam@for.me> - 2016-10-22 12:21 +0200
          Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-10-22 16:33 -0700

csiph-web