Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0)

From	Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.c
Subject	Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0)
Date	2016-10-18 12:03 -0700
Organization	None to speak of
Message-ID	<lnzim1cweq.fsf@kst-u.example.com> (permalink)
References	(10 earlier) <003e026c-0fca-40b2-ab84-2197571d165f@googlegroups.com> <lny41mee3s.fsf@kst-u.example.com> <3dc49e97-bb93-411f-8fe3-7cdbb6fdb70d@googlegroups.com> <lnh989eit0.fsf@kst-u.example.com> <1c6a99e7-93b9-4a27-9201-aa5b6e7985aa@googlegroups.com>

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supercat@casperkitty.com writes:
> On Tuesday, October 18, 2016 at 11:14:01 AM UTC-5, Keith Thompson wrote:
>> supercat writes:
>> >> Consider a hypothetical implementation of memcpy() that checks its
>> >> arguments, causing a segfault if either s1 or s2 is a null pointer.
>> >> You would assert, I presume, that such an implementation would
>> >> be non-conforming?
>> 
>> I see you've decided to ignore that.
>
> The Standard does not impose any requirements upon how an implementation
> processes *any* program, other than the One, which does not contain any
> #error directives.  So nothing memcpy could do would make an implementation
> non-conforming under a literal reading of the Standard if the One Program
> did not use memcpy, or did so in a way that happened to behave normally.
>
> I would say that treating memcpy(any,any,0) as a no-op is a behavior which
> programmers should be entitled to expect from any quality implementation
> which has not been specifically requested to identify ways in which a
> program might fail on inferior implementations, and I would consider that
> such requests are generally best handled via non-conforming modes, rendering
> the question of conformance for them irrelevant.

Let's take another look at the actual wording in the description of
memcpy().  N1570 7.24.2.1p2:

    The memcpy function copies n characters from the object pointed to
    by s2 into the object pointed to by s1.

You claim that memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) should copy 0 characters,
and therefore should not misbehave if the first and/or second
argument is a null pointer.  But the standard says those characters
are copied from "the object" to "the object".  From what object,
and to what object, are 0 characters copied?

The description makes no sense unless there actually are objects
pointed to by s2 and by s1.  The standard does not describe the
behavior of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0), therefore the behavior is
undefined.

The current wording suggests that the authors of the standard did *not*
intend to define the behavior of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0).  Either they
intended to leave the behavior undefined, or they didn't think of that
particular case.

And again, if you think the behavior *should* be defined, I have no
problem with that.  If you think that implementations *should* treat
memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) as a no-op, I have no problem with that either
(such behavior is of course conforming under either interpretation).
If you wish to advocate changing the wording in the next edition of
the C standard so that memcpy with n==0 is a well-defined no-op even
if either s1 or s2 is a null pointer, I won't object (though I would
first ask for a survey of the behavior of existing implementations).
But the standard simply does not define the behavior of memcpy(NULL,
NULL, 0), so even if we either ignore the "such as" clause in
7.1.4p1 or interpret it in some other way, the behavior is undefined.

(I would also have no problem with either leaving the wording as
it is, or with adding wording that states more explicitly that
the behavior is undefined.  Here I'm not disagreeing with you;
I'm just not sharing your preference.)

-- 
Keith Thompson (The_Other_Keith) kst-u@mib.org  <http://www.ghoti.net/~kst>
Working, but not speaking, for JetHead Development, Inc.
"We must do something.  This is something.  Therefore, we must do this."
    -- Antony Jay and Jonathan Lynn, "Yes Minister"

Thread

UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) Noob <root@127.0.0.1> - 2016-10-13 12:42 +0200
  Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2016-10-13 11:55 +0100
    Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) Noob <root@127.0.0.1> - 2016-10-13 13:09 +0200
      Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2016-10-13 12:22 +0100
        Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-10-13 12:22 -0700
          Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-10-13 12:32 -0700
            Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-10-13 12:34 -0700
    Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> - 2016-10-13 08:24 -0600
      Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2016-10-13 16:22 +0100
      Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) Noob <root@127.0.0.1> - 2016-10-13 17:49 +0200
        Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> - 2016-10-13 12:02 -0600
  Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) Lőrinczy Zsigmond <nospam@for.me> - 2016-10-15 20:56 +0200
    Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-10-15 12:52 -0700
    Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) "James R. Kuyper" <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2016-10-15 15:55 -0400
    Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-10-15 13:41 -0700
      Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) Lőrinczy Zsigmond <nospam@for.me> - 2016-10-16 11:17 +0200
        Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2016-10-16 10:26 +0100
        Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2016-10-16 09:55 +0000
          Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-10-16 08:44 -0400
            Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-10-17 10:06 +0200
              Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-10-17 09:06 -0400
                Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-10-17 16:29 +0200
                Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-10-17 17:05 -0400
                Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-10-18 11:19 +0200
                Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-10-18 08:04 -0700
                Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-10-18 16:27 -0400
            Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-10-17 08:59 -0700
              Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-10-17 11:21 -0700
                Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-10-17 13:42 -0700
                Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-10-17 14:46 -0700
                Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-10-17 15:52 -0700
                Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-10-17 16:43 -0700
                Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-10-18 08:00 -0700
                Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-10-18 09:14 -0700
                Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-10-18 09:43 -0700
                Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-10-18 11:31 -0700
                Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-10-18 12:49 -0700
                Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-10-18 12:03 -0700
              Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-10-17 17:06 -0400
                Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-10-17 14:55 -0700
        Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-10-16 11:23 -0700
      Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-10-17 08:49 -0700
        Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2016-10-18 16:54 +0000
          Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-10-18 11:09 -0700
            Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2016-10-23 13:24 +0000
              Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-10-24 09:28 -0700
              Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) <william@wilbur.25thandClement.com> - 2016-10-29 11:32 -0700
                Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-10-29 14:12 -0700
    Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-10-15 22:00 +0100
      Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-10-16 02:51 -0700
        Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-10-16 11:20 +0100
          Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-10-16 04:14 -0700
            Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-10-16 12:22 +0100
            Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2016-10-16 13:01 +0100
              Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-10-16 05:29 -0700
                Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-10-16 20:47 +0100
                Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-10-17 02:08 -0700
                Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-10-17 10:24 +0200
                Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-10-17 08:05 -0700
                Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-10-17 17:25 +0200
  Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) Lőrinczy Zsigmond <nospam@for.me> - 2016-10-17 17:08 +0200
    Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) Lorinczy Zsigmond <zsiga@nospam.for.me> - 2016-10-21 12:46 +0200
      Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-10-21 08:06 -0700
        Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) Lőrinczy Zsigmond <nospam@for.me> - 2016-10-21 18:30 +0200
          Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-10-21 09:34 -0700
            Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) Lőrinczy Zsigmond <nospam@for.me> - 2016-10-22 07:42 +0200
              Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2016-10-22 10:31 -0400
                Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) Lőrinczy Zsigmond <nospam@for.me> - 2016-10-22 17:49 +0200
                Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2016-10-22 13:43 -0700
                Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) Lőrinczy Zsigmond <nospam@for.me> - 2016-10-23 07:47 +0200
                Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) "James R. Kuyper" <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2016-10-23 11:07 -0400
                Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) Lőrinczy Zsigmond <nospam@for.me> - 2016-10-23 17:45 +0200
                Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) "James R. Kuyper" <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2016-10-23 12:16 -0400
                Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-10-24 07:38 -0700
                Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-10-24 08:38 -0700
                Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-10-24 09:44 -0700
                Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-10-23 12:22 -0700
                Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-10-23 13:37 -0700
                Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-10-23 14:15 -0700
                Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) Ike Naar <ike@iceland.freeshell.org> - 2016-10-24 06:11 +0000
                Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-10-24 00:58 -0700
                Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2016-10-23 14:07 -0700
                Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-10-24 07:48 -0700
                Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-10-24 08:40 -0700
                Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-10-24 10:03 -0700
                Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-10-24 12:06 -0700
                Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-10-24 13:36 -0700
                Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-10-24 13:57 -0700
                Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2016-10-24 14:16 -0700
                Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-10-24 17:23 -0700
                Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2016-10-25 07:57 -0700
                Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2016-10-22 18:23 -0400
                Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) "James R. Kuyper" <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2016-10-23 10:44 -0400
                Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2016-10-23 16:24 +0100
                Re: Verbing Noob <root@127.0.0.1> - 2016-10-23 18:02 +0200
        Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2016-10-23 13:26 +0000
          Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-10-23 07:40 -0700
      Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) asetofsymbols@gmail.com - 2016-10-21 23:56 -0700
        Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) Lőrinczy Zsigmond <nospam@for.me> - 2016-10-22 12:21 +0200
          Re: UB of memcpy(NULL, NULL, 0) Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-10-22 16:33 -0700

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