Groups > alt.folklore.computers > #164830

Re: CS instead of math?

From	usenet@only.tnx (Questor)
Newsgroups	alt.folklore.computers
Subject	Re: CS instead of math?
Organization	ask the NSA
Message-ID	<57590349.8493603@nntp2.rawbw.com> (permalink)
References	(7 earlier) <MPG.31b29843795fb7bc98a1dc@news.eternal-september.org> <574dc979.9648864@nntp2.rawbw.com> <MPG.31b7ff684ce4a3c498a1ee@news.eternal-september.org> <575073c4.11440310@nntp2.rawbw.com> <MPG.31ba93eb559fec1498a207@news.eternal-september.org>
Date	2016-06-09 05:49 +0000

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On Thu, 2 Jun 2016 20:05:51 -0400, "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com>
wrote:
>In article <575073c4.11440310@nntp2.rawbw.com>, usenet@only.tnx says...
>> On Tue, 31 May 2016 21:07:38 -0400, "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >In article <574dc979.9648864@nntp2.rawbw.com>, usenet@only.tnx says...
>> >> On Fri, 27 May 2016 18:46:13 -0400, "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com>
>> >> wrote:
>> >> >In article <5748866a.9280975@nntp2.rawbw.com>, usenet@only.tnx says...
>> >> >> On Thu, 26 May 2016 07:14:06 -0400, "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com>
>> >> >> wrote:
>> >> >> You apparently have failed to grasp that pure mathematics, much like pure
>> >> >> research, is engaged in for its own sake.
>> >> >
>> >> >I have quite grasped that.  I do not understand why you think it is 
>> >> >relevant.
>> >> 
>> >> You seem irked by mathematicians who, quelle surprise, want to act like
>> >> mathematicians and do mathematics.
>> >
>> >I don't give a crap what mathematicians do when they are not being paid 
>> >to teach future physicists and engineers.  But when they are being paid 
>> >to teach future physicists and engineers, they should bloody well be 
>> >teaching them what they need to know instead of a bunch of stuff that is 
>> >interesting to mathematicians but irrelevant to those students.
>> 
>> Mathematics professors are supposed to teach mathematics, which includes
>> mathematical theory.  Engineering professors are supposed to teach engineering,
>> which includes proper use of whatever mathematical methods are applicable to
>> their specific situations.
>
>So you're saying that the engineering department should run its own 
>calculus course and quit bothering the math department?

I think you're being deliberately obtuse.  The math department should teach
calculus.  Engineering departments should teach how to use calculus to solve the
problems specific to their field.

When I took algebra, I learned about complex numbers.  I was taught what they
were, how they were derived, and the methods to manipulate them arithmetically 
and algebraically.  No mention was ever made of electronic circuits.

When I took beginning EE courses, such as basic circuit analysis, I was taught
how inductors and other circuit elements are modelled using complex numbers.  It
was expected, as a prerequisite for taking these courses, that I already knew
what complex numbers were and how to use them.  I was subsequently taught how
to use them to solve EE problems.

>> Perhaps you should provide some specific examples of mathematics courses,
>> some topics that were taught in them, and what you think should have been taught
>> instead.
>
>Calculus 101, 102, 103.  Prove this, prove that, prove the other thing, 
>never once asked to actually apply any of it to problem solving.

Proofs ARE problems -- they are mathematical problems.  Being able to generate
correct proofs demonstrates an understanding of the underlying concepts.  In
addition, proofs require the ability to start with a set of initial conditions,
and by using logic and other previously generated tools (i.e., theorems), step
through a series of valid transformations to reach a desired end state.  The
elements may be abstract, but the process is similar to solving engineering
problems.  So yes, proofs help teach problem-solving skills.

>> Your position ties back into my original post.  The students want to substitute
>> CS instruction for math, in large part because they view it as more useful.
>> Instead of a general education, they want vocational training.  You seem to
>> think that colleges and universities should also essentially be vocational
>> schools.
>
>If you think that teaching someone to solve problems is "vocational 
>training" you are not in contact with reality.

To the extent that you teach someone to solve specific problems instead of
general problem-solving methods, or without the theory that underlies the
solution, then yes, I regard that as a form of vocational training.  Without an
adequate theoretical foundation, how does someone solve a completely novel
problem?  How does the state of the art get advanced if all that is taught is
rote solutions to existing problems?

>I guess we should just abolish the engineering department and the 
>business school altogether because who needs "vocational training"?

And where do you propose to teach engineering or business theory?

There is theory, and there is practice.  The obvious place to teach theory is in
the classroom.  One can learn theory on the job or in the field, but it is often
not the appropriate place, and the cost can be high.

I don't ignore the need for practical experience.  One way to gain it is through
internships.  Another is through explicit project work in a lab or workshop,
supervised by a faculty member, and for which the student gets academic credit.

>> >But maybe we should just abolish any math-department requirement for 
>> >scientists and engineers and instead have the relevant math taught by 
>> >other scientists and engineers, since mathematicians have more important 
>> >things to do.
>> 
>> Apparently you want mathematicians to teach science and engineering in addition
>> to mathematics.
>
>If you count solving mathematical problems as "teaching science and 
>engineering".

No, I count that as teaching mathematics.  Learning how to solve engineering
problems should be taught in engineering classes.

Thread

CS instead of math? usenet@only.tnx (Questor) - 2016-05-21 00:57 +0000
  Re: CS instead of math? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-05-20 22:13 -0400
    Re: CS instead of math? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-05-21 11:39 +0000
  Re: CS instead of math? bert <bert.hutchings@btinternet.com> - 2016-05-21 13:23 -0700
    Re: CS instead of math? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-05-21 22:36 -0400
      Re: CS instead of math? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-05-24 18:00 +0000
        Re: CS instead of math? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-05-24 20:27 +0200
        Re: CS instead of math? Bob Martin <bob.martin@excite.com> - 2016-05-25 06:56 +0100
          Re: CS instead of math? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-05-25 07:42 +0100
            Re: CS instead of math? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-05-25 09:39 +0200
              Re: CS instead of math? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-05-25 09:37 +0100
                Re: CS instead of math? Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> - 2016-05-25 13:05 +0000
                Re: CS instead of math? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-05-26 07:07 -0400
                Re: CS instead of math? Morten Reistad <first@Last.name.invalid> - 2016-05-26 13:34 +0200
                Re: CS instead of math? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-05-26 14:02 +0100
                Re: CS instead of math? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-05-26 19:46 -0400
                Re: CS instead of math? Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2016-05-26 19:17 -0500
                Re: CS instead of math? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-05-27 06:56 -0400
              Re: CS instead of math? JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2016-05-25 07:26 -0500
                Re: CS instead of math? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-05-25 14:40 +0200
              Re: CS instead of math? Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2016-05-25 16:19 -0300
                Re: CS instead of math? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-05-25 16:15 -0400
                Re: CS instead of math? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-05-25 22:29 +0200
                Re: CS instead of math? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-05-25 21:19 +0000
              Re: CS instead of math? sidd@situ.com (sidd) - 2016-05-26 16:34 -0400
          Re: CS instead of math? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-05-26 07:04 -0400
            Re: CS instead of math? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-05-26 13:28 +0200
              Re: CS instead of math? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-05-26 14:06 +0100
                Re: CS instead of math? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-05-26 18:57 +0200
                Re: CS instead of math? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-05-26 18:19 +0100
                Re: CS instead of math? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-05-26 18:35 +0100
                Re: CS instead of math? cb@elaine.df.lth.se (Christian Brunschen) - 2016-05-26 22:05 +0000
                Re: CS instead of math? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-05-27 15:33 +0000
                Re: CS instead of math? Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2016-05-27 15:40 -0300
            Re: CS instead of math? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-05-26 14:43 +0000
              Re: CS instead of math? JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2016-05-26 11:03 -0500
                Re: CS instead of math? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-05-26 16:27 +0000
                Re: CS instead of math? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-05-26 17:52 +0100
              Re: CS instead of math? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-05-26 16:22 -0400
            Re: CS instead of math? usenet@only.tnx (Questor) - 2016-05-31 17:27 +0000
              Re: CS instead of math? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-05-31 20:06 +0000
                Re: CS instead of math? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-05-31 21:08 -0400
                Re: CS instead of math? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-01 07:17 +0100
                Re: CS instead of math? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-06-01 05:31 -0400
                Re: CS instead of math? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-01 11:56 +0100
                Re: CS instead of math? Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btopenworld.com> - 2016-06-01 16:00 +0100
                Re: CS instead of math? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-01 17:15 +0100
                Re: CS instead of math? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-06-01 19:28 +0000
                Re: CS instead of math? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-06-01 17:42 +0000
                Re: CS instead of math? Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2016-06-01 13:03 -0700
                Re: CS instead of math? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-06-01 17:05 -0400
                Re: CS instead of math? Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2016-06-01 12:48 -0700
                Re: CS instead of math? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-06-01 17:34 -0400
                Re: CS instead of math? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-02 07:50 +0100
                Re: CS instead of math? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-02 10:37 +0000
                Re: CS instead of math? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-02 12:33 +0100
                Re: CS instead of math? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-02 12:08 +0000
                Re: CS instead of math? Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> - 2016-06-02 08:17 +0000
                Re: CS instead of math? Andy Burns <feb2017-usenet@adslpipe.co.uk> - 2016-06-02 09:49 +0100
                Re: CS instead of math? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-02 12:09 +0100
                Re: CS instead of math? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-06-03 13:16 +0000
                Re: CS instead of math? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-06-02 12:09 +0000
                Re: CS instead of math? Andy Burns <feb2017-usenet@adslpipe.co.uk> - 2016-06-02 14:09 +0100
                Re: CS instead of math? Andy Burns <feb2017-usenet@adslpipe.co.uk> - 2016-06-02 14:12 +0100
                Re: CS instead of math? Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2016-06-02 19:44 -0700
                Re: CS instead of math? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-06-03 13:16 +0000
                Re: CS instead of math? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-06-02 15:02 +0200
                Re: CS instead of math? Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> - 2016-06-02 16:44 +0000
                Re: CS instead of math? Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> - 2016-06-02 16:43 +0000
                Re: CS instead of math? Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> - 2016-06-02 16:42 +0000
                Re: CS instead of math? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-06-02 16:41 -0400
                Re: CS instead of math? Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> - 2016-06-02 22:18 +0000
                Re: CS instead of math? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-06-01 17:42 +0000
                Re: CS instead of math? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-06-01 22:03 +0200
                Re: CS instead of math? Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2016-06-01 12:47 -0700
              Re: CS instead of math? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-05-31 20:58 -0400
                Re: CS instead of math? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-01 07:29 +0100
                Re: CS instead of math? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-06-01 11:59 +0200
                Re: CS instead of math? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-06-01 06:48 -0400
                Re: CS instead of math? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-01 12:41 +0100
                Re: CS instead of math? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-06-01 17:04 -0400
                Re: CS instead of math? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-02 07:59 +0100
                Re: CS instead of math? Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> - 2016-06-02 08:18 +0000
                Re: CS instead of math? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-06-02 19:53 -0400
                Re: CS instead of math? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-01 12:15 +0100
                Re: CS instead of math? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-06-01 17:42 +0000
              Re: CS instead of math? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-06-01 13:51 +0000
    Re: CS instead of math? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-05-22 11:27 +0100
      Re: CS instead of math? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-05-22 07:21 -0400
        Re: CS instead of math? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-05-22 13:15 +0000
          Re: CS instead of math? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-05-22 09:53 -0400
        Re: CS instead of math? usenet@only.tnx (Questor) - 2016-05-25 07:18 +0000
          Re: CS instead of math? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-05-25 09:42 +0200
            Re: CS instead of math? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-05-25 13:11 +0000
              Re: CS instead of math? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-05-25 16:15 -0400
                Re: CS instead of math? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-05-25 22:31 +0200
                Re: CS instead of math? Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btopenworld.com> - 2016-05-26 11:23 +0100
                Re: CS instead of math? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-05-26 11:37 +0100
              Re: CS instead of math? usenet@only.tnx (Questor) - 2016-05-26 17:56 +0000
            Re: CS instead of math? sidd@situ.com (sidd) - 2016-05-26 16:36 -0400
              Re: CS instead of math? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-05-26 19:51 -0400
          Re: CS instead of math? "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2016-05-25 07:43 -0500
            Re: CS instead of math? usenet@only.tnx (Questor) - 2016-05-26 17:55 +0000
          Re: CS instead of math? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-05-26 07:14 -0400
            Re: CS instead of math? usenet@only.tnx (Questor) - 2016-05-27 17:40 +0000
              Re: CS instead of math? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-05-27 18:46 -0400
                Re: CS instead of math? usenet@only.tnx (Questor) - 2016-05-31 17:28 +0000
                Re: CS instead of math? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-05-31 16:09 -0400
                Re: CS instead of math? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-05-31 21:07 -0400
                Re: CS instead of math? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-01 08:58 +0100
                Re: CS instead of math? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-06-01 05:48 -0400
                Re: CS instead of math? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-06-01 12:06 +0200
                Re: CS instead of math? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-06-01 06:46 -0400
                Re: CS instead of math? sidd@situ.com (sidd) - 2016-06-03 16:05 -0400
                Re: CS instead of math? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-06-03 20:49 -0400
                Re: CS instead of math? sidd@situ.com (sidd) - 2016-06-04 22:29 -0400
                Re: CS instead of math? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-01 12:27 +0100
                Re: CS instead of math? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-06-01 17:07 -0400
                Re: CS instead of math? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-02 08:12 +0100
                Re: CS instead of math? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-06-02 19:56 -0400
                Re: CS instead of math? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-03 09:17 +0100
                Re: CS instead of math? Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2016-06-01 13:20 -0700
                Re: CS instead of math? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-06-01 17:10 -0400
                Re: CS instead of math? usenet@only.tnx (Questor) - 2016-06-02 17:58 +0000
                Re: CS instead of math? "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2016-06-02 13:57 -0500
                Re: CS instead of math? Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2016-06-02 17:43 -0300
                Re: CS instead of math? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-06-02 20:08 -0400
                Re: CS instead of math? usenet@only.tnx (Questor) - 2016-06-02 17:58 +0000
                Re: CS instead of math? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-06-02 20:05 -0400
                Re: CS instead of math? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-03 10:38 +0000
                Re: CS instead of math? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-03 11:41 +0100
                Re: CS instead of math? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-06-03 13:16 +0000
                Re: CS instead of math? usenet@only.tnx (Questor) - 2016-06-09 05:49 +0000
                Re: CS instead of math? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-06-09 19:58 -0400
                Re: CS instead of math? usenet@only.tnx (Questor) - 2016-06-17 03:35 +0000
                Re: CS instead of math? Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2016-06-02 19:47 -0700

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