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Re: Sound hardware access for RO

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In article <mpro.lxno3g00ip4bv02ck@wingsandbeaks.org.uk.invalid>, Jeremy
Nicoll - news posts <jn.nntp.scrap007@wingsandbeaks.org.uk> wrote:
> Jim Lesurf <jcgl@audiomisc.co.uk> wrote:

> > 1) users of iPlops and look-alikes and mobile 'mp3' players.

> You do yourself no favours by descending to calling things silly names.


> > Given the problems people can encounter with some 'computer' kit, and
> > the tendency for standard PCs <sic> 

> What's the "sic" for?  

For the usual reason I thought would be obvious. That to most of the public
'PC' means a standard desktop/laptop playing the current version of Home of
Office Windows and its bundled apps. Combined with the variability in
actual performance of such systems that a simple two-letter acronym
conceals.

> > So do mine. :-)  But I did spend a fair bit of time and effort (and
> > money) on getting (Linux based) items into the audio systems I use
> > that work well enough for serious listening. The whole process made me
> > think that a RO based solution might prove very attractive to users
> > not already committed. But at present this is impossible due to a lack
> > of the ability to drive good quality USB DACs. 

> Why would someone interested in high-quality audio want to bring it into
> a RO system, though?  Why not use the USB DAC to take it into a more
> mainstream OS where versatile audio tools already exist?

You mean, why would anyone be interested in RO? Why should anyone bother
to see if we can expand the usefulness and possible user base?

> > Or if it is simply not something they could do. To me, though, this
> > seems like it could be am opportunity to gain a niche that could be
> > useful for RO and its users as well as music enthusiasts.

> I understand why you approach this from a RO point of view, but don't
> understand why a music enthusiast would want RO.

> What does RO bring to this that makes it worthwhile?

There are a number of reasons I have in mind. None are killers in
isolation, but the overall picture seems to me more compelling in
potential. My own experience of using a 'PC' (actually three different
systems running various Linux disros that I've hacked about to a minimal
degree) - plus a lot of feedback from audio fans who get problems with
getting a satisfactory replay system lead me to the following.

Some reasons are primarily hardware, others 'software' (inc. exploiting the
way the OS works) Others a mix or more a matter of different approaches
like the RO preference for smaller and simpler task apps or lighter systems
in terms of mainsplug power.

A particular difficulty is the sheer variability (and closed detail) nature
of a lot of the 'PC' hardware on sale. So that when someone buys a machine,
even with pre-installed OS, etc, they have no idea if it will show detailed
problems that another machine with nominally the same OS and bundle would
not. This may not show up when using Word to write a letter. But it can and
does when it comes to something like playing out an audio stream. It seems
quite common in the PC biz to assume that "I can hear something" means
"sound works perfectly". But in reality, it doesn't. The closer
relationship and considered porting of RO to a select choice of hardware
may help avoid this *if* people take sound seriously in a way that many
mainstream PC makers fail.

Look at systems like BB, ARMini, and even Raspberry Pi in contast with
standard 'PC' hardware. For playing audio a small, low power, and
conventional HD based system can be an advantage. Easier to add to an
existing audio setup. Avoids unwanted background noise from fans, whirring
discs.  Lower power consumption makes it easier to make decent PSUs to
avoid interference, loop injections, etc. The low cost of the base system
also can be an advantage for someone wanted to develop a solution (sorry
about that term) for others.

Having available single tasking if that suits a developer of some user
software. (Note that many of the commercial solutions these days do package
as what behaves like a single task, even if not being so as this makes use
by those who want a music player not a computer easier.)  Having a system
that doesn't start off doing things like letting system houskeeping tasks
or screen dimming or even having some other process interrupt the audio or
overlay it with some other stream.

Yes, you can make a fine audio player based on Linux, Windows, or Macs, and
avoid the significant problems. But when I look at the systems I've tried,
and discuss this with other audio fans they often feel that something
simpler and lighter would do as well and be more convenient. One that might
work fine with a small low-power chipset and from a relatively small
capacity solid-state 'hard disc'. I use my systems with external storage
via USB HDs. But others would use net storage elsewhere, or other methods
as they prefer. So no need for a big 'hard disc' in the actual 'computer'
if the OS also has a small footprint.

Yes, there are simplified systems like Squeezeboxes, et al. But these
generally tie all but the most geeky into a 'take it or leave it' package.
Whereas with a system based more obviously on a more general OS with a GUI
and (desktop) filer available the user can adapt if they choose, install
alternative software, or change they way they use it *without* having to
know how to write programs or fiddle at a deep level.

Again, an example. If you use something like a Brennan or other device you
tend to end up being presented with how *it* decides to store and 'index'
the files. Wheras using a more 'computer' approach gives you more
individual flexibility. So a RO based system would give people a chance to
see alternatives to existing 'PC' or 'closed solution' products. Its called
competition and choice.

And why *not* have RO be able to do this so potential users can choose, and
we might expand the user base and range of uses? If we presume this is a
waste of time then that seems to me to be just like saying we shouldn't
bother with *any* more development as people can use Windows for all their
home uses.

FWIW In recent months I've been doing a fair bit of work on testing USB
DACs and during that I've had a chance to talk to a few people about this.
It may already be too late, but I do have a feeling that there is/has been
an opportunity here that fits fairly well with the light hardware and OS
footprint of RO as an overall package on the newer hardware that people are
looking at porting RO onto. Maybe I'm wrong. But unless someone produces a
way for the RO systems to drive the USB DACs we are never going to know
what was missed.

Alas, my skill is in being able to test the kit. I'm a hopeless programmer
when it comes to things like being able to write the USB interfacing
required. I can write programs that do things like measure replay timing
with resolution approaching parts-per-billion, and detect any missing,
garbled, or repeated sample values. But not make a RO system drive a USB
DAC. Hence my raising the idea that someone should consider this.

I'll stop rambling now. In the end people either have an interest in this,
or not. Although I'm happy to raise the profile of the topic I realise I'm
not likely to convince those who are happy with what is already on offer.

Slainte,

Jim

-- 
Electronics  http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/intro/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio  http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc  http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

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Thread

Sound hardware access for RO Jim Lesurf <jcgl@audiomisc.co.uk> - 2012-01-11 12:18 +0000
  Re: Sound hardware access for RO Alan Wrigley <spamhater@keepyourfilthyspamtoyourself.co.uk> - 2012-01-11 12:30 +0000
    Re: Sound hardware access for RO Jim Lesurf <jcgl@audiomisc.co.uk> - 2012-01-11 13:43 +0000
      Re: Sound hardware access for RO Jeremy Nicoll - news posts <jn.nntp.scrap007@wingsandbeaks.org.uk> - 2012-01-11 22:35 +0000
        Re: Sound hardware access for RO Jim Lesurf <jcgl@audiomisc.co.uk> - 2012-01-12 10:08 +0000
          Re: Sound hardware access for RO Alan Wrigley <spamhater@keepyourfilthyspamtoyourself.co.uk> - 2012-01-12 17:57 +0000
            Re: Sound hardware access for RO Jim Lesurf <jcgl@audiomisc.co.uk> - 2012-01-13 12:05 +0000
      Re: Sound hardware access for RO Roger Darlington <rogerarm@freeuk.com> - 2012-04-03 09:03 +0100
        Re: Sound hardware access for RO Jim Lesurf <jcgl@audiomisc.co.uk> - 2012-04-03 09:53 +0100
  Re: Sound hardware access for RO John Kortink <kortink@inter.nl.net> - 2012-01-11 14:10 +0100
    Re: Sound hardware access for RO Jim Lesurf <jcgl@audiomisc.co.uk> - 2012-01-11 15:13 +0000
      Re: Sound hardware access for RO Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2012-01-11 17:04 +0000
      Re: Sound hardware access for RO John Kortink <kortink@inter.nl.net> - 2012-01-11 19:58 +0100
    Re: Sound hardware access for RO "Ste (news)" <steve@revi11.plus.com> - 2012-01-15 17:14 +0000
      Re: Sound hardware access for RO Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-01-17 07:11 +0100
  Re: Sound hardware access for RO druck <news@druck.org.uk> - 2012-01-11 20:52 +0000
    Re: Sound hardware access for RO Jim Lesurf <jcgl@audiomisc.co.uk> - 2012-01-12 09:21 +0000
      Re: Sound hardware access for RO druck <news@druck.org.uk> - 2012-01-14 20:34 +0000
        Re: Sound hardware access for RO Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-01-15 05:19 +0100
          Re: Sound hardware access for RO druck <news@druck.org.uk> - 2012-01-15 12:30 +0000
            Re: Sound hardware access for RO Jim Lesurf <jcgl@audiomisc.co.uk> - 2012-01-15 13:38 +0000
              Re: Sound hardware access for RO druck <news@druck.org.uk> - 2012-01-17 23:38 +0000
                Re: Sound hardware access for RO Jim Lesurf <jcgl@audiomisc.co.uk> - 2012-01-18 09:37 +0000
                Re: Sound hardware access for RO Jeremy Nicoll - news posts <jn.nntp.scrap007@wingsandbeaks.org.uk> - 2012-01-27 02:05 +0000
                Re: Sound hardware access for RO Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-01-27 05:19 +0100
            Re: Sound hardware access for RO Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-01-15 15:57 +0100
              Re: Sound hardware access for RO Jim Lesurf <jcgl@audiomisc.co.uk> - 2012-01-15 17:30 +0000
                Re: Sound hardware access for RO Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-01-17 07:22 +0100
                Re: Sound hardware access for RO Jim Lesurf <jcgl@audiomisc.co.uk> - 2012-01-17 09:28 +0000
                Re: Sound hardware access for RO Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2012-01-17 11:31 +0000
                Re: Sound hardware access for RO Jim Lesurf <jcgl@audiomisc.co.uk> - 2012-01-17 12:34 +0000
            Re: Sound hardware access for RO Dave Higton <davehigton@dsl.pipex.com> - 2012-01-16 21:19 +0000
          Re: Sound hardware access for RO Jim Lesurf <jcgl@audiomisc.co.uk> - 2012-01-15 10:18 +0000
            Re: Sound hardware access for RO Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-01-15 16:18 +0100
              Re: Sound hardware access for RO Jim Lesurf <jcgl@audiomisc.co.uk> - 2012-01-15 17:39 +0000
        Re: Sound hardware access for RO Jim Lesurf <jcgl@audiomisc.co.uk> - 2012-01-15 10:01 +0000
  Re: Sound hardware access for RO Dave Higton <davehigton@dsl.pipex.com> - 2012-01-16 21:28 +0000
    Re: Sound hardware access for RO Jim Lesurf <jcgl@audiomisc.co.uk> - 2012-01-17 09:35 +0000
    Re: Sound hardware access for RO Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2012-01-17 11:37 +0000
      Re: Sound hardware access for RO davehigton <davehigton14@googlemail.com> - 2012-01-17 05:07 -0800
        Re: Sound hardware access for RO Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2012-01-17 16:46 +0000
          Re: Sound hardware access for RO Ron <beeb@woosh.co.nz> - 2012-01-18 11:22 +1300
            Re: Sound hardware access for RO Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2012-01-17 23:42 +0000
              Re: Sound hardware access for RO Ron <beeb@woosh.co.nz> - 2012-01-18 13:47 +1300
      Re: Sound hardware access for RO Jim Lesurf <jcgl@audiomisc.co.uk> - 2012-01-17 12:36 +0000

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