Groups > comp.lang.forth > #19386

Re: Offline compilation of Forth

From	Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.forth
Subject	Re: Offline compilation of Forth
Date	2013-02-03 15:14 +0100
Organization	1&1 Internet AG
Message-ID	<4002140.osQJPTfjem@sunwukong.fritz.box> (permalink)
References	<ke5otq$92o$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> <5106a980.266061561@192.168.0.50> <op.wrxe2qndsu5d0p@david> <510e5208.767967805@192.168.0.50> <510e6d3a$0$6567$9b4e6d93@newsspool3.arcor-online.net>

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A. K. wrote:
> But then you need to show a benefit over embedded Java or Lua, to name
> two. Forth "ideology" does not count here.

This "ideology" thingy reminds me on a project a friend of mine had at 
Giesecke&Devrient.  They implemented a web server in a smart card, 
complete with SSL to have secure communication.  The SSL+TCP used some C 
libraries, the rest was in Forth; a total of three persons worked for a 
few months to get it running.

Then, the management came and said they don't want this Forth "ideology" 
and rather use embedded Java.  After 200 people tried for four years, 
they canceled the project.  All the time, they had a "running demo", as 
they called it, written in Forth.  The two employees who did that in 
Forth (the third one was a consultant) had long left the company for 
better opportunities.

The "ideology" here is that the mainstream tools are just as good, and 
that mediocre programmers are much better than good programmers, because 
you can get a dozen a dime (or so).  Gerald Wodny has a similar story: 
Two full-time indians are taking over of his job (he's doing 10h/week 
part time consulting for Honywell).  They are more expensive than he is.  
They don't get anything done.  This is not about Forth vs. something, 
because this is all done in .NET.  A good programmer simply is 20 times 
more efficient than a bad programmer.  And a good programmer is one who 
choses his tools as an informed decision.  The uninformed management 
likes to call that "ideology" if it doesn't fit with their own ideology 
(judging from themselves, therefore, any decision must be ideology).

In any case: a bad programmer in Forth is usually even worse than in Lua 
or Java.

-- 
Bernd Paysan
"If you want it done right, you have to do it yourself"
http://bernd-paysan.de/

Thread

Offline compilation of Forth Lauri Alanko <la@iki.fi> - 2013-01-28 11:54 +0000
  Re: Offline compilation of Forth stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2013-01-28 17:19 +0000
    Re: Offline compilation of Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-01-28 22:08 +0100
    Re: Offline compilation of Forth "Peter Knaggs" <pjk@bcs.org.uk> - 2013-02-03 10:50 +0000
      Re: Offline compilation of Forth stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2013-02-03 12:11 +0000
        Re: Offline compilation of Forth "A. K." <akk@nospam.org> - 2013-02-03 14:59 +0100
          Re: Offline compilation of Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-02-03 15:14 +0100
            Re: Offline compilation of Forth Hannu Vuolasaho <hannu.vuolasaho@nospam.tut.fi.invalid> - 2013-02-03 15:25 +0000
          Re: Offline compilation of Forth Gary Bergstrom <g.bergstrom@ieee.org> - 2013-02-05 08:13 -0800
      Re: Offline compilation of Forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-02-04 16:23 +0000
  Re: Offline compilation of Forth "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-01-28 12:26 -1000
  Re: Offline compilation of Forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-01-29 08:55 +0000
    Re: Offline compilation of Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-01-29 17:49 +0100
      Re: Offline compilation of Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-01-30 00:42 -0800
        Re: Offline compilation of Forth stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2013-01-30 11:58 +0000
        Re: Offline compilation of Forth Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2013-01-30 23:16 -0800
          Re: Offline compilation of Forth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-01-31 13:29 +0000
            Re: Offline compilation of Forth "Ed" <invalid@nospam.com> - 2013-02-03 12:49 +1100
              Re: Offline compilation of Forth "Clyde W. Phillips Jr." <cwpjr02@gmail.com> - 2013-02-14 20:37 -0800
      Re: Offline compilation of Forth mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2013-02-03 21:15 +0200
        Re: Offline compilation of Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-02-04 02:04 +0100
      Re: Offline compilation of Forth stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2013-02-04 13:22 +0000
        Re: Offline compilation of Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-02-04 20:07 +0100
          Re: Offline compilation of Forth mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2013-02-04 23:07 +0200
            Re: Offline compilation of Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-02-05 18:33 +0100
              Re: Offline compilation of Forth mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2013-02-06 22:53 +0200
                Re: Offline compilation of Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-02-07 00:30 +0100
    Re: Offline compilation of Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-01-30 00:36 -0800
  Re: Offline compilation of Forth Lauri Alanko <la@iki.fi> - 2013-01-30 18:12 +0000
    Re: Offline compilation of Forth "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-01-30 09:36 -1000
    Re: Offline compilation of Forth "A. K." <akk@nospam.org> - 2013-01-31 07:45 +0100
    Re: Offline compilation of Forth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-01-31 03:37 -0600
      Re: Offline compilation of Forth Lauri Alanko <la@iki.fi> - 2013-02-01 00:01 +0000
        Re: Offline compilation of Forth "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-01-31 14:59 -1000
          Re: Offline compilation of Forth Lauri Alanko <la@iki.fi> - 2013-02-05 15:17 +0000
            Re: Offline compilation of Forth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-02-05 10:46 -0600
              Re: Offline compilation of Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-02-05 18:47 +0100
    Re: Offline compilation of Forth "Ed" <invalid@nospam.com> - 2013-01-31 21:47 +1100
      Re: Offline compilation of Forth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-01-31 06:12 -0600
        Re: Offline compilation of Forth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-01-31 13:32 +0000
        Re: Offline compilation of Forth "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-01-31 08:27 -1000
          Re: Offline compilation of Forth "Ed" <invalid@nospam.com> - 2013-02-01 10:23 +1100
            Re: Offline compilation of Forth "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-01-31 13:53 -1000
              Re: Offline compilation of Forth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-02-01 03:17 +0000
                Re: Offline compilation of Forth "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-01-31 18:43 -1000
                Re: Offline compilation of Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-02-01 08:45 -0800
              Re: Offline compilation of Forth Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2013-01-31 23:05 -0800
                Re: Offline compilation of Forth "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-01-31 21:25 -1000
                Re: Offline compilation of Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-02-01 08:55 -0800
                Re: Offline compilation of Forth "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-02-01 09:18 -1000
                Re: Offline compilation of Forth Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2013-02-01 13:04 -0800
              Re: Offline compilation of Forth "Ed" <invalid@nospam.com> - 2013-02-03 11:20 +1100
                Re: Offline compilation of Forth stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2013-02-03 12:20 +0000
                Re: Offline compilation of Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-02-03 07:22 -0800
                Re: Offline compilation of Forth stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2013-02-03 17:54 +0000
                Re: Offline compilation of Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-02-03 10:17 -0800
                Re: Offline compilation of Forth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-02-03 19:33 +0000
                Re: Offline compilation of Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-02-03 11:53 -0800
                Re: Offline compilation of Forth Coos Haak <chforth@hccnet.nl> - 2013-02-04 00:59 +0100
                Re: Offline compilation of Forth Matthias Koch <matthias.koch@hot.uni-hannover.de> - 2013-02-04 11:38 +0100
                Re: Offline compilation of Forth Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2013-02-06 09:13 -0800
                Re: Offline compilation of Forth "Clyde W. Phillips Jr." <cwpjr02@gmail.com> - 2013-02-14 21:02 -0800
                Re: Offline compilation of Forth "Clyde W. Phillips Jr." <cwpjr02@gmail.com> - 2013-02-14 20:55 -0800
                Re: Offline compilation of Forth "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-02-03 08:26 -1000
                Re: Offline compilation of Forth "Ed" <invalid@nospam.com> - 2013-02-05 13:04 +1100
                Re: Offline compilation of Forth stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2013-02-05 10:33 +0000
                Re: Offline compilation of Forth "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-02-05 08:56 -1000
                Re: Offline compilation of Forth "Ed" <invalid@nospam.com> - 2013-02-08 02:07 +1100
                Re: Offline compilation of Forth Roelf Toxopeus <rt4all@notthis.hetnet.nl> - 2013-02-07 19:03 +0100
                Re: Offline compilation of Forth "Ed" <invalid@nospam.com> - 2013-02-09 22:45 +1100
                Re: Offline compilation of Forth Roelf Toxopeus <rt4all@notthis.hetnet.nl> - 2013-02-09 18:56 +0100
                Re: Offline compilation of Forth Roelf Toxopeus <rt4all@notthis.hetnet.nl> - 2013-02-11 00:19 +0100
                Re: Offline compilation of Forth Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-02-09 11:59 -0800
                Re: Offline compilation of Forth "Ed" <invalid@nospam.com> - 2013-02-13 13:13 +1100
                Re: Offline compilation of Forth Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-02-12 19:19 -0800
                Re: Offline compilation of Forth "Clyde W. Phillips Jr." <cwpjr02@gmail.com> - 2013-02-14 21:01 -0800
      Re: Offline compilation of Forth Roberto Waltman <usenet@rwaltman.com> - 2013-02-03 16:26 -0500
        Re: Offline compilation of Forth "Ed" <invalid@nospam.com> - 2013-02-05 15:32 +1100
          Re: Offline compilation of Forth Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2013-02-04 23:18 -0800

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