Groups > comp.lang.forth > #19576

Re: Offline compilation of Forth

From	"Ed" <invalid@nospam.com>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.forth
Subject	Re: Offline compilation of Forth
Date	2013-02-09 22:45 +1100
Organization	Aioe.org NNTP Server
Message-ID	<kf5ct8$dkv$1@speranza.aioe.org> (permalink)
References	(9 earlier) <keppbs$pdd$1@speranza.aioe.org> <5110ddd5.934828986@192.168.0.50> <9uednUyMIfpfyIzMnZ2dnUVZ_vWdnZ2d@supernews.com> <kf0fve$iuc$1@speranza.aioe.org> <rt4all-ED31F4.19035807022013@[10.12.75.213]>

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Roelf Toxopeus wrote:
>
> Hi Ed,
>
> So what's considered a few-Kb kernel?
>
> On OSX the out of the box extended SF will produce a standalone
> HelloWorld in 242 Kb. Using UNCALLED one can strip, manually, the
> included files to a certain minimum. At what cost? My time, pffffffffff.
> Much simpler is to recompile the SFK kernel with the supplied
> crosscompiler and replace QUIT with HelloWorld. Minimal efford (and thus
> minimal costs): 95 Kb.
> For this special case, one can go further and comment out 1/3 of the
> kernel files. The resulting app is 41 Kb. I could continue trimming by
> trial and error. But no time left. Anyway the vendor provides me with
> the tools to achieve this. It only needs to be done at the users
> expense, he/she has to put some effort in to it. I don't think that's
> bad.

But this requires specialist knowledge and not a little effort.  As processes
go it is far from "user-friendly".

Compiler and related stuff represent the bulk of Forth systems today.
Don't include the compiler in the turnkey and there is an automatic and
substantial saving in size.  In my case I select TURNKEY or TURNKEY-
SYSTEM and the job is done.

> I know 2 desktop GUI Forth systems from the 1980ies capable of doing
> what you suggested. jForth on the Amiga created standalone apps via
> target compiling. Mach2 for Mac and Atari did it by _not_ saving the
> dictionary header space and unused code segments (compiler, debugger,
> editors, asembler/disassembler, etc.) in the turnkey.
> Selling point in the advertisements for both Forth systems, was creating
> standalone applications like any other development system on those
> platforms wrt size, execution speed and GUI capabilities (both systems
> were 32bit 68000 jsr+optimization threaded).
>
> Truth is, I did not see many applications made that way. Most of us used
> these systems without turnkeying our work. I still don't use turnkey
> apart as a way to extend the system (in some systems called SNAPSHOT
> SAVE-SYSTEM WORKSPACE etc.). But in the (unlikely) event I have to, I'll
> certainly will take measures to put some sanity in the system :-)

Virtually all my apps end up as compilerless turnkeys.  I can only remember
one case where I needed to save the compiler - a standalone screen editor.

Even for folks who aren't likely to benefit from a system such as DX-Forth,
Win32Forth, JForth etc. it's nice to have the choice.  Retrofitting existing
forths may be difficult but new systems should certainly consider it.

Thread

Offline compilation of Forth Lauri Alanko <la@iki.fi> - 2013-01-28 11:54 +0000
  Re: Offline compilation of Forth stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2013-01-28 17:19 +0000
    Re: Offline compilation of Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-01-28 22:08 +0100
    Re: Offline compilation of Forth "Peter Knaggs" <pjk@bcs.org.uk> - 2013-02-03 10:50 +0000
      Re: Offline compilation of Forth stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2013-02-03 12:11 +0000
        Re: Offline compilation of Forth "A. K." <akk@nospam.org> - 2013-02-03 14:59 +0100
          Re: Offline compilation of Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-02-03 15:14 +0100
            Re: Offline compilation of Forth Hannu Vuolasaho <hannu.vuolasaho@nospam.tut.fi.invalid> - 2013-02-03 15:25 +0000
          Re: Offline compilation of Forth Gary Bergstrom <g.bergstrom@ieee.org> - 2013-02-05 08:13 -0800
      Re: Offline compilation of Forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-02-04 16:23 +0000
  Re: Offline compilation of Forth "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-01-28 12:26 -1000
  Re: Offline compilation of Forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-01-29 08:55 +0000
    Re: Offline compilation of Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-01-29 17:49 +0100
      Re: Offline compilation of Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-01-30 00:42 -0800
        Re: Offline compilation of Forth stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2013-01-30 11:58 +0000
        Re: Offline compilation of Forth Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2013-01-30 23:16 -0800
          Re: Offline compilation of Forth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-01-31 13:29 +0000
            Re: Offline compilation of Forth "Ed" <invalid@nospam.com> - 2013-02-03 12:49 +1100
              Re: Offline compilation of Forth "Clyde W. Phillips Jr." <cwpjr02@gmail.com> - 2013-02-14 20:37 -0800
      Re: Offline compilation of Forth mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2013-02-03 21:15 +0200
        Re: Offline compilation of Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-02-04 02:04 +0100
      Re: Offline compilation of Forth stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2013-02-04 13:22 +0000
        Re: Offline compilation of Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-02-04 20:07 +0100
          Re: Offline compilation of Forth mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2013-02-04 23:07 +0200
            Re: Offline compilation of Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-02-05 18:33 +0100
              Re: Offline compilation of Forth mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2013-02-06 22:53 +0200
                Re: Offline compilation of Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-02-07 00:30 +0100
    Re: Offline compilation of Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-01-30 00:36 -0800
  Re: Offline compilation of Forth Lauri Alanko <la@iki.fi> - 2013-01-30 18:12 +0000
    Re: Offline compilation of Forth "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-01-30 09:36 -1000
    Re: Offline compilation of Forth "A. K." <akk@nospam.org> - 2013-01-31 07:45 +0100
    Re: Offline compilation of Forth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-01-31 03:37 -0600
      Re: Offline compilation of Forth Lauri Alanko <la@iki.fi> - 2013-02-01 00:01 +0000
        Re: Offline compilation of Forth "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-01-31 14:59 -1000
          Re: Offline compilation of Forth Lauri Alanko <la@iki.fi> - 2013-02-05 15:17 +0000
            Re: Offline compilation of Forth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-02-05 10:46 -0600
              Re: Offline compilation of Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-02-05 18:47 +0100
    Re: Offline compilation of Forth "Ed" <invalid@nospam.com> - 2013-01-31 21:47 +1100
      Re: Offline compilation of Forth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-01-31 06:12 -0600
        Re: Offline compilation of Forth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-01-31 13:32 +0000
        Re: Offline compilation of Forth "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-01-31 08:27 -1000
          Re: Offline compilation of Forth "Ed" <invalid@nospam.com> - 2013-02-01 10:23 +1100
            Re: Offline compilation of Forth "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-01-31 13:53 -1000
              Re: Offline compilation of Forth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-02-01 03:17 +0000
                Re: Offline compilation of Forth "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-01-31 18:43 -1000
                Re: Offline compilation of Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-02-01 08:45 -0800
              Re: Offline compilation of Forth Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2013-01-31 23:05 -0800
                Re: Offline compilation of Forth "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-01-31 21:25 -1000
                Re: Offline compilation of Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-02-01 08:55 -0800
                Re: Offline compilation of Forth "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-02-01 09:18 -1000
                Re: Offline compilation of Forth Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2013-02-01 13:04 -0800
              Re: Offline compilation of Forth "Ed" <invalid@nospam.com> - 2013-02-03 11:20 +1100
                Re: Offline compilation of Forth stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2013-02-03 12:20 +0000
                Re: Offline compilation of Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-02-03 07:22 -0800
                Re: Offline compilation of Forth stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2013-02-03 17:54 +0000
                Re: Offline compilation of Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-02-03 10:17 -0800
                Re: Offline compilation of Forth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-02-03 19:33 +0000
                Re: Offline compilation of Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-02-03 11:53 -0800
                Re: Offline compilation of Forth Coos Haak <chforth@hccnet.nl> - 2013-02-04 00:59 +0100
                Re: Offline compilation of Forth Matthias Koch <matthias.koch@hot.uni-hannover.de> - 2013-02-04 11:38 +0100
                Re: Offline compilation of Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-02-24 21:26 -0800
                Re: Offline compilation of Forth Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-02-24 23:56 -0800
                Re: Offline compilation of Forth Matthias Koch <matthias.koch@hot.uni-hannover.de> - 2013-02-25 12:08 +0100
                Re: Offline compilation of Forth Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-02-25 04:31 -0800
                Re: Offline compilation of Forth Matthias Koch <matthias.koch@hot.uni-hannover.de> - 2013-02-25 15:54 +0100
                Re: Offline compilation of Forth Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2013-02-06 09:13 -0800
                Re: Offline compilation of Forth "Clyde W. Phillips Jr." <cwpjr02@gmail.com> - 2013-02-14 21:02 -0800
                Re: Offline compilation of Forth "Clyde W. Phillips Jr." <cwpjr02@gmail.com> - 2013-02-14 20:55 -0800
                Re: Offline compilation of Forth "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-02-03 08:26 -1000
                Re: Offline compilation of Forth "Ed" <invalid@nospam.com> - 2013-02-05 13:04 +1100
                Re: Offline compilation of Forth stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2013-02-05 10:33 +0000
                Re: Offline compilation of Forth "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-02-05 08:56 -1000
                Re: Offline compilation of Forth "Ed" <invalid@nospam.com> - 2013-02-08 02:07 +1100
                Re: Offline compilation of Forth Roelf Toxopeus <rt4all@notthis.hetnet.nl> - 2013-02-07 19:03 +0100
                Re: Offline compilation of Forth "Ed" <invalid@nospam.com> - 2013-02-09 22:45 +1100
                Re: Offline compilation of Forth Roelf Toxopeus <rt4all@notthis.hetnet.nl> - 2013-02-09 18:56 +0100
                Re: Offline compilation of Forth Roelf Toxopeus <rt4all@notthis.hetnet.nl> - 2013-02-11 00:19 +0100
                Re: Offline compilation of Forth Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-02-09 11:59 -0800
                Re: Offline compilation of Forth "Ed" <invalid@nospam.com> - 2013-02-13 13:13 +1100
                Re: Offline compilation of Forth Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-02-12 19:19 -0800
                Re: Offline compilation of Forth "Clyde W. Phillips Jr." <cwpjr02@gmail.com> - 2013-02-14 21:01 -0800
      Re: Offline compilation of Forth Roberto Waltman <usenet@rwaltman.com> - 2013-02-03 16:26 -0500
        Re: Offline compilation of Forth "Ed" <invalid@nospam.com> - 2013-02-05 15:32 +1100
          Re: Offline compilation of Forth Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2013-02-04 23:18 -0800

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