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Re: "Brian Kernigan speaks. 83 and still teaching."

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On Sun, 2025-09-07 at 12:08 +0200, David Brown wrote:
> On 07/09/2025 10:16, Michael S wrote:
> > On Fri, 5 Sep 2025 16:51:32 +0200
> > David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> wrote:
> > 
> > > On 05/09/2025 16:08, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> > > > Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> writes:
> > > > > On 04.09.2025 17:57, boltar@caprica.universe wrote:
> > > > > > On Thu, 4 Sep 2025 12:40:37 +0200
> > > > > > Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> gabbled:
> > > > > > > On 04.09.2025 10:36, boltar@caprica.universe wrote:
> > > > > > > > I'd love to hear his opinion of the designed-by-committee
> > > > > > > > syntatic horror that is modern C++.
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > You are probably speaking about the newer C++ standards, and also
> > > > > > > not about the "C" contribution to the "syntactic horror". Right?
> > > > > > >   
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > C's syntax might not be the best, but its relatively simple. C++
> > > > > > syntax is a dogs dinner and gets worse everytime the steering
> > > > > > committee farts out a new version every 3 years with increasingly
> > > > > > niche and obscure functionality. Some C++ code now is virtually
> > > > > > unparsable by the human eye and a lot of the new crap are meta
> > > > > > keywords that are compiler directives or hints rather than code
> > > > > > that actually does something. eg:
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > swappable
> > > > > > swappable_with 	
> > > > > > destructible 	
> > > > > > constructible_from 	
> > > > > > default_initializable
> > > > > >   
> > > > > 
> > > > > Thanks for clarifying. - I stopped my professional use of C++ with
> > > > > this millennium. The last standard that came to my attention was
> > > > > something like "C++0x/C++11" (IIRC, with move semantics, and some
> > > > > such). While I understand the motivation for introduction of such
> > > > > things I already found the syntax, the implications on readability,
> > > > > and the complexity a problem back then
> > > > 
> > > > Nobody is required to actually use all that cruft.  It is still
> > > > possible to write C with classes using even the most modern C++
> > > > suite.
> > > 
> > > Indeed.
> > > 
> > > Much of those sorts of things are useful for writing high-performance
> > > general purpose containers and other such flexible libraries.
> > 
> > Disagreed.
> > The syntactic innovations that cause "modern C++" to look as different
> > language from both original "C with classes" and from following "C with
> > classes and templates" are:
> > Major:
> > 1. Lambda expressions
> > 2. Uniform initialization
> > 3. Range-based for loop
> > 4. Attributes
> > Minor:
> > 1. New meaning of auto.
> > 
> > All of those were introduced in C++11.
> > 
> 
> Yes, these are all new in C++11 onwards.  And I agree that they change 
> the way C++ looks - and that these are all becoming quite pervasive in 
> "normal" C++ beyond "C with classes".
> 
> > More recent additions with syntax that looks alien are:
> > 1. Concepts
> > 2. Three-way comparison
> > Happily, those are more specialized and as such less pervasive.
> > 
> 
> I was thinking more along those lines - and things like fold 
> expressions, complicated "noeexcept" expressions, template-template 
> parameters, and moving and forwarding parameters.
> 
> But of course these things are a matter of opinion and subjective uses 
> and experience.  And there is always the tendency for some of new things 
> to appear "alien" but gradually become part of common usage.

That the last sentence is one-sided wish.
Many 'new things' (not all. some, typically small, are good) are involving 
doing the same thing in 'standardized different' way while every field has their own
good problem solving logic. That is just one aspect of the problem of redundency.

Another thing is 'C++' seems always aims at 'small' things that can be done
otherwise. E.g. the basic array things (important). Can std::vector, std::array 
be used widely enough, for system programming, even in C++std library itself?
The needs for 'vector'(math)/matrix has kept increasing.
The demand of graphics/sound is always there. And, now, there are 'AI' stuff.
C++ dare to touch these topics? No, always things like some piece of code doing 
this way will be 'good'....

'C++' is ultimately defined by C++ commitee members.
If it decided to shoot its own feet... It is still C++.
So, you are right, choose whatever is needed (but that is a problem for C++
beginners).

> > 
> > > For
> > > most user code, you don't need more than a fraction of what C++
> > > provides (but /which/ fraction will depend on the user).
> > > 
> > 
> > Statements like that apply to just about any language or framework.
> > Which makes them useless.
> > 
> > comp.lang.c removed
> > 
> 
> C would be an example of a language where you /can/ learn the solid 
> majority of it, and people use a large proportion of its features in 
> everyday coding.
> 
> When I used Borland Pascal, I knew pretty much all of the language. 
> When I used BASIC on a variety of 1980's computers, I knew all every 
> statement and expression in the languages.  When I started with 
> microcontrollers, I knew every assembly instruction and cpu register, 
> and knew most of the peripherals in detail.  I don't imagine I am alone 
> in having that kind of near-complete knowledge of older and smaller 
> languages and systems.
> 
> It is certainly true, however, that languages and systems have grown 
> massively over the years, and for many modern languages it would be 
> completely infeasible for one person to really understand and use more 
> than a small part.  But you still have a chance for some newer languages 
> like Zig or Nim, which make a point of trying to be small enough that 
> they don't have features that are not needed on a regular basis.
> 

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"Brian Kernigan speaks. 83 and still teaching." Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> - 2025-09-01 23:39 -0500
  Re: "Brian Kernigan speaks. 83 and still teaching." Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> - 2025-09-02 20:34 -0500
  Re: "Brian Kernigan speaks. 83 and still teaching." Pierre <null@void.net> - 2025-09-03 22:20 +0000
    Re: "Brian Kernigan speaks. 83 and still teaching." Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2025-09-04 02:10 +0200
      Re: "Brian Kernigan speaks. 83 and still teaching." scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2025-09-04 00:12 +0000
        Re: "Brian Kernigan speaks. 83 and still teaching." Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-09-04 02:30 +0000
          Re: "Brian Kernigan speaks. 83 and still teaching." 🇵🇱Jacek Marcin Jaworski🇵🇱 <jaworski1978@adres.pl> - 2025-09-04 18:33 +0200
            Re: "Brian Kernigan speaks. 83 and still teaching." Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2025-09-05 00:36 +0300
        Re: "Brian Kernigan speaks. 83 and still teaching." Beej Jorgensen <beej@beej.us> - 2025-09-07 17:50 +0000
          Re: "Brian Kernigan speaks. 83 and still teaching." Paavo Helde <eesnimi@osa.pri.ee> - 2025-09-08 09:13 +0300
            Re: "Brian Kernigan speaks. 83 and still teaching." "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-09-08 00:20 -0700
            Re: "Brian Kernigan speaks. 83 and still teaching." Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-09-08 08:43 +0000
              Re: "Brian Kernigan speaks. 83 and still teaching." candycanearter07 <candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid> - 2025-09-09 21:50 +0000
                Re: "Brian Kernigan speaks. 83 and still teaching." Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-09-09 22:38 +0000
                Re: "Brian Kernigan speaks. 83 and still teaching." candycanearter07 <candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid> - 2025-09-10 18:20 +0000
      Re: "Brian Kernigan speaks. 83 and still teaching." boltar@caprica.universe - 2025-09-04 08:36 +0000
        Re: "Brian Kernigan speaks. 83 and still teaching." Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2025-09-04 12:40 +0200
          Re: "Brian Kernigan speaks. 83 and still teaching." boltar@caprica.universe - 2025-09-04 15:57 +0000
            Re: "Brian Kernigan speaks. 83 and still teaching." Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2025-09-05 05:42 +0200
              Re: "Brian Kernigan speaks. 83 and still teaching." scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2025-09-05 14:08 +0000
                Re: "Brian Kernigan speaks. 83 and still teaching." David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2025-09-05 16:51 +0200
                Re: "Brian Kernigan speaks. 83 and still teaching." boltar@caprica.universe - 2025-09-05 15:17 +0000
                Re: "Brian Kernigan speaks. 83 and still teaching." wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2025-09-06 00:41 +0800
                Re: "Brian Kernigan speaks. 83 and still teaching." wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2025-09-06 00:41 +0800
                Re: "Brian Kernigan speaks. 83 and still teaching." Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2025-09-07 11:16 +0300
                Re: "Brian Kernigan speaks. 83 and still teaching." David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2025-09-07 12:08 +0200
                Re: "Brian Kernigan speaks. 83 and still teaching." wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2025-09-07 22:16 +0800
                Re: "Brian Kernigan speaks. 83 and still teaching." boltar@caprica.universe - 2025-09-07 14:42 +0000
                Re: "Brian Kernigan speaks. 83 and still teaching." David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2025-09-07 20:05 +0200
                Re: "Brian Kernigan speaks. 83 and still teaching." scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2025-09-07 15:30 +0000
                Re: "Brian Kernigan speaks. 83 and still teaching." boltar@caprica.universe - 2025-09-07 16:00 +0000
                Re: "Brian Kernigan speaks. 83 and still teaching." candycanearter07 <candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid> - 2025-09-09 21:50 +0000
                Re: "Brian Kernigan speaks. 83 and still teaching." Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> - 2025-09-05 13:58 -0500
                Re: "Brian Kernigan speaks. 83 and still teaching." Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2025-09-06 01:14 +0200
              Re: "Brian Kernigan speaks. 83 and still teaching." James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2025-09-05 17:34 -0400
                Re: "Brian Kernigan speaks. 83 and still teaching." Lew Pitcher <lew.pitcher@digitalfreehold.ca> - 2025-09-05 21:55 +0000
                Re: "Brian Kernigan speaks. 83 and still teaching." Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2025-09-06 01:39 +0200
                Re: "Brian Kernigan speaks. 83 and still teaching." scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2025-09-06 17:46 +0000
                Re: "Brian Kernigan speaks. 83 and still teaching." Lew Pitcher <lew.pitcher@digitalfreehold.ca> - 2025-09-06 18:38 +0000
                Re: "Brian Kernigan speaks. 83 and still teaching." Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-09-08 08:41 +0000
                Re: “Brian Kernigan speaks. 83 and still teaching.” Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-09-08 08:40 +0000
                Re: “Brian Kernigan speaks. 83 and still teaching.” Louis Krupp <lkrupp@invalid.pssw.com.invalid> - 2025-09-10 01:21 -0600
        Re: "Brian Kernigan speaks. 83 and still teaching." Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2025-09-04 23:40 +0200
      Re: "Brian Kernigan speaks. 83 and still teaching." Mario Rosell <usenet@mariorosell.es> - 2026-04-17 20:25 +0000
        Re: "Brian Kernigan speaks. 83 and still teaching." Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-04-19 00:10 +0000
        Re: "Brian Kernigan speaks. 83 and still teaching." "Mr. Man-wai Chang" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2026-04-22 03:51 +0800
    Re: "Brian Kernigan speaks. 83 and still teaching." Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-09-08 08:36 +0000
      Re: "Brian Kernigan speaks. 83 and still teaching." Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> - 2025-09-08 17:01 -0500
        Re: "Brian Kernigan speaks. 83 and still teaching." Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-09-08 22:43 +0000
          Re: "Brian Kernigan speaks. 83 and still teaching." Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> - 2025-09-08 17:57 -0500
        Re: "Brian Kernigan speaks. 83 and still teaching." scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2025-09-09 14:45 +0000

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