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Re: Indirect Bit

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On Saturday, April 14, 2012 8:50:48 AM UTC-5, nm...@cam.ac.uk wrote:
> In article <6799b00c-7c9e-4f0c-9a97-3994c3d81b5f@x17g2000vba.googlegroups.com>,
> Paul A. Clayton 
>  wrote:
> >ChrisQ wrote:
> >
> >>                                  There's
> >> a good reason why orthoganal, cisc architectures were successfull,
> >> even if a little was lost in absolute performance terms. Raw hardware
> >> performance is of little use if there are not enough competent
> >> programmers to write decent compilers for them...
> >
> >It is probably more difficult to write an _optimizing_ compiler for
> >CISC than for RISC.  ...
> 
> He did say "orthogonal", and is probably right there.
> 
> The reason that it was so hard to write optimising compilers
> for so-called RISC systems is that the instruction constraints,
> semantics and idiosyncracies are so complicated and non-orthogonal.
> Of course, that doesn't apply to a well-designed and simple true
> RISC system, but most weren't.

I think the whole notion of optimization is misconstrued. At best
an "optimizing" simply does a less poor job of translating the 
semantics of the HLL inot machine code than does a less "optimizing"
compiler.

But moreover, It never ceased to amaze me that compiler people were 
loathe to read the machine code output from their compilers!!! This
is akin to a person creating fonts to never bother to print the fonts 
out and look at them.

Having written code generators for RICS (2) and CISC (3) machines;
I further thnk that more is made over the headches of one versus
the other than is warrented. Afterall, a code generator is a great
big pattern matchin problem. Clever compiler writers get down into
it and figure out which constructs are working and which are not. 
Then leverage this knowledge over the rest of the instructioni set.
In fact, I would not let a computer architect design an instruction
set UNTIL they ad successfully constructed a code generator that works
rather well.

As Gordon Bell stated in his seminal work: the instruction set should
contain primatives, not solutions. So, while PDP-11 orthogonality and
addressing modes were an adequate fit for the days of expensive memory
they are not such a good fit in more modern times. What with pipe-
lining, out-of-order execution, breaking CISC instructions into multiple 
RICS primitives,...

Then reading Kahan's work on the dangers of allowing compilers to do
anything with floating point optimizations sends chills down ones
spine.

Similar work has been done by others on the merits and dangers of 
optimizing (reordering) memory transfer instructions (or side effects)
with similar dire consequences (mainly in C land).

Mitch

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Indirect Bit Mark Thorson <nospam@sonic.net> - 2012-04-10 19:31 -0800
  Re: Indirect Bit Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2012-04-11 01:29 -0500
    Re: Indirect Bit sarr.blumson@alum.dartmouth.org - 2012-04-11 14:48 +0000
      Re: Indirect Bit mac <acolvin@efunct.com> - 2012-04-12 14:43 +0000
    Re: Indirect Bit Morten Reistad <first@last.name> - 2012-04-22 15:19 +0200
      Re: Indirect Bit "Andy (Super) Glew" <andy@SPAM.comp-arch.net> - 2012-04-22 23:24 -0700
  Re: Indirect Bit Terje Mathisen <"terje.mathisen at tmsw.no"> - 2012-04-11 08:32 +0200
    Re: Indirect Bit Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2012-04-11 05:49 -0700
      Re: Indirect Bit "Andy (Super) Glew" <andy@SPAM.comp-arch.net> - 2012-04-12 21:22 -0700
        Re: Indirect Bit "Paul A. Clayton" <paaronclayton@gmail.com> - 2012-04-13 08:14 -0700
          Re: Indirect Bit Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2012-04-13 16:13 -0700
            Re: Indirect Bit "Paul A. Clayton" <paaronclayton@gmail.com> - 2012-04-13 20:01 -0700
              Re: Indirect Bit Andrew Reilly <areilly.---@bigpond.net.au> - 2012-04-14 03:16 +0000
                Re: Indirect Bit "Paul A. Clayton" <paaronclayton@gmail.com> - 2012-04-14 08:14 -0700
        Re: Indirect Bit Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2012-04-13 16:05 -0700
          Re: Indirect Bit MitchAlsup <MitchAlsup@aol.com> - 2012-04-13 17:01 -0700
            Re: Indirect Bit Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2012-04-14 13:49 -0700
          Re: Indirect Bit Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2012-04-13 20:07 -0400
          Re: Indirect Bit Terje Mathisen <"terje.mathisen at tmsw.no"> - 2012-04-14 18:47 +0200
          Re: Indirect Bit Morten Reistad <first@last.name> - 2012-04-22 15:26 +0200
            Re: Indirect Bit "Andy (Super) Glew" <andy@SPAM.comp-arch.net> - 2012-04-22 23:25 -0700
              Re: Indirect Bit nmm1@cam.ac.uk - 2012-04-23 09:18 +0100
                Re: Indirect Bit EricP <ThatWouldBeTelling@thevillage.com> - 2012-04-23 19:35 -0400
                Re: Indirect Bit nmm1@cam.ac.uk - 2012-04-24 08:37 +0100
                Re: Indirect Bit nmm1@cam.ac.uk - 2012-04-24 09:42 +0100
                Re: Indirect Bit Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2012-04-24 01:58 -0700
                Re: Indirect Bit nmm1@cam.ac.uk - 2012-04-24 11:26 +0100
                Re: Indirect Bit Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2012-04-24 05:02 -0700
                Re: Indirect Bit nmm1@cam.ac.uk - 2012-04-24 13:58 +0100
                Re: Indirect Bit Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2012-04-24 10:07 -0700
                Re: Indirect Bit Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2012-04-24 04:30 -0700
                Re: Indirect Bit nmm1@cam.ac.uk - 2012-04-24 13:01 +0100
  Re: Indirect Bit Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2012-04-11 10:03 -0400
  Re: Indirect Bit kenney@cix.compulink.co.uk - 2012-04-11 09:22 -0500
    Re: Indirect Bit Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2012-04-12 14:11 -0700
      Re: Indirect Bit Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2012-04-12 18:05 -0400
        Re: Indirect Bit "Andy (Super) Glew" <andy@SPAM.comp-arch.net> - 2012-04-12 20:13 -0700
      Re: Indirect Bit Mark Thorson <nospam@sonic.net> - 2012-04-12 16:55 -0800
        Re: Indirect Bit Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2012-04-12 17:25 -0700
          Re: Indirect Bit Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2012-04-12 20:03 -0500
          Re: Indirect Bit "Andy (Super) Glew" <andy@SPAM.comp-arch.net> - 2012-04-12 21:33 -0700
            Re: Indirect Bit Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2012-04-13 15:57 -0700
              Re: Indirect Bit MitchAlsup <MitchAlsup@aol.com> - 2012-04-13 17:03 -0700
        Re: Indirect Bit "Andy (Super) Glew" <andy@SPAM.comp-arch.net> - 2012-04-12 20:14 -0700
  Re: Indirect Bit Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2012-04-11 10:35 -0400
  Re: Indirect Bit MitchAlsup <MitchAlsup@aol.com> - 2012-04-11 08:54 -0700
  Re: Indirect Bit "Andy (Super) Glew" <andy@SPAM.comp-arch.net> - 2012-04-12 07:55 -0700
    Re: Indirect Bit MitchAlsup <MitchAlsup@aol.com> - 2012-04-12 10:16 -0700
      Re: Indirect Bit jacko <jackokring@gmail.com> - 2012-04-12 11:07 -0700
        Re: Indirect Bit "Andy (Super) Glew" <andy@SPAM.comp-arch.net> - 2012-04-12 21:34 -0700
      Re: Indirect Bit Stephen Fuld <SFuld@alumni.cmu.edu.invalid> - 2012-04-12 11:35 -0700
        Re: Indirect Bit "Andy (Super) Glew" <andy@SPAM.comp-arch.net> - 2012-04-12 21:41 -0700
          Re: Indirect Bit jacko <jackokring@gmail.com> - 2012-04-13 14:52 -0700
          Re: Indirect Bit Stephen Fuld <SFuld@alumni.cmu.edu.invalid> - 2012-04-15 09:24 -0700
            Re: Indirect Bit Terje Mathisen <"terje.mathisen at tmsw.no"> - 2012-04-15 22:45 +0200
              Re: Indirect Bit Stephen Fuld <SFuld@alumni.cmu.edu.invalid> - 2012-04-15 18:04 -0700
      Re: Indirect Bit "Andy (Super) Glew" <andy@SPAM.comp-arch.net> - 2012-04-12 21:12 -0700
    Re: Indirect Bit timcaffrey@aol.com (Tim McCaffrey) - 2012-04-12 19:23 +0000
    Re: Indirect Bit Terje Mathisen <"terje.mathisen at tmsw.no"> - 2012-04-13 08:54 +0200
      Re: Indirect Bit "Andy (Super) Glew" <andy@SPAM.comp-arch.net> - 2012-04-14 14:37 -0700
    Re: Indirect Bit Andrew Reilly <areilly.---@bigpond.net.au> - 2012-04-15 23:42 +0000
      Re: Indirect Bit "Paul A. Clayton" <paaronclayton@gmail.com> - 2012-04-16 08:08 -0700
        Re: Indirect Bit Andrew Reilly <areilly.---@bigpond.net.au> - 2012-04-16 23:38 +0000
          Re: Indirect Bit "Andy (Super) Glew" <andy@SPAM.comp-arch.net> - 2012-04-16 21:29 -0700
      Re: Indirect Bit "Andy (Super) Glew" <andy@SPAM.comp-arch.net> - 2012-04-16 21:25 -0700
  Re: Indirect Bit Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2012-04-12 14:05 -0700
    Re: Indirect Bit ChrisQ <blackhole@devnull.com> - 2012-04-14 10:12 +0000
      Re: Indirect Bit "Paul A. Clayton" <paaronclayton@gmail.com> - 2012-04-14 06:25 -0700
        Re: Indirect Bit nmm1@cam.ac.uk - 2012-04-14 14:50 +0100
          Re: Indirect Bit ChrisQ <blackhole@devnull.com> - 2012-04-14 18:01 +0000
            Re: Indirect Bit Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2012-04-14 14:00 -0700
              Re: Indirect Bit Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2012-04-14 20:58 -0400
            Re: Indirect Bit "Paul A. Clayton" <paaronclayton@gmail.com> - 2012-04-16 09:57 -0700
            Re: Indirect Bit timcaffrey@aol.com (Tim McCaffrey) - 2012-04-20 23:19 +0000
          Re: Indirect Bit "Paul A. Clayton" <paaronclayton@gmail.com> - 2012-04-16 08:50 -0700
            Re: Indirect Bit nmm1@cam.ac.uk - 2012-04-16 18:09 +0100
              Re: Indirect Bit Andrew Reilly <areilly.---@bigpond.net.au> - 2012-04-16 23:19 +0000
                Re: Indirect Bit nmm1@cam.ac.uk - 2012-04-17 09:20 +0100
                Re: Indirect Bit Terje Mathisen <"terje.mathisen at tmsw.no"> - 2012-04-17 12:49 +0200
                Re: Indirect Bit Andrew Reilly <areilly.---@bigpond.net.au> - 2012-04-17 12:40 +0000
                Re: Indirect Bit nmm1@cam.ac.uk - 2012-04-18 12:01 +0100
                Re: Indirect Bit anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-04-17 12:34 +0000
                Re: Indirect Bit MitchAlsup <MitchAlsup@aol.com> - 2012-04-17 09:10 -0700
                Re: Indirect Bit Andrew Reilly <areilly.---@bigpond.net.au> - 2012-04-17 22:05 +0000
                Re: Indirect Bit jgk@panix.com (Joe keane) - 2012-04-19 19:37 +0000
                Re: Indirect Bit torbenm@diku.dk (Torben Ægidius Mogensen) - 2012-04-20 11:10 +0200
                Re: Indirect Bit Terje Mathisen <"terje.mathisen at tmsw.no"> - 2012-04-20 11:24 +0200
                Re: Indirect Bit nmm1@cam.ac.uk - 2012-04-20 15:01 +0100
                Re: Indirect Bit nmm1@cam.ac.uk - 2012-04-20 15:03 +0100
                Re: Indirect Bit Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2012-04-20 08:01 -0700
                Re: Indirect Bit nmm1@cam.ac.uk - 2012-04-20 16:35 +0100
                Re: Indirect Bit Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2012-04-18 11:10 -0700
                Re: Indirect Bit MitchAlsup <MitchAlsup@aol.com> - 2012-04-18 15:37 -0700
          Re: Indirect Bit MitchAlsup <MitchAlsup@aol.com> - 2012-04-16 11:21 -0700
            Re: Indirect Bit nmm1@cam.ac.uk - 2012-04-16 19:36 +0100
              Re: Indirect Bit Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2012-04-18 11:17 -0700
                Re: Indirect Bit MitchAlsup <MitchAlsup@aol.com> - 2012-04-18 15:33 -0700
                Re: Indirect Bit Andreas Eder <andreas_eder@gmx.net> - 2012-04-19 00:29 +0200
                Re: Indirect Bit nmm1@cam.ac.uk - 2012-04-19 10:50 +0100
                Re: Indirect Bit MitchAlsup <MitchAlsup@aol.com> - 2012-04-19 11:29 -0700
                Re: Indirect Bit nmm1@cam.ac.uk - 2012-04-19 21:39 +0100
                Re: Indirect Bit EricP <ThatWouldBeTelling@thevillage.com> - 2012-04-20 15:14 -0400
                Re: Indirect Bit "Andy (Super) Glew" <andy@SPAM.comp-arch.net> - 2012-04-20 22:43 -0700
                Re: Indirect Bit EricP <ThatWouldBeTelling@thevillage.com> - 2012-04-21 17:14 -0400
                Re: Indirect Bit Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2012-04-21 19:47 -0500
                Re: Indirect Bit Nomen Nescio <nobody@dizum.com> - 2012-04-22 10:45 +0200
                Re: Indirect Bit nmm1@cam.ac.uk - 2012-04-22 09:57 +0100
                Re: Indirect Bit Terje Mathisen <"terje.mathisen at tmsw.no"> - 2012-04-22 12:54 +0200
                Re: Indirect Bit nmm1@cam.ac.uk - 2012-04-22 13:00 +0100
                Re: Indirect Bit Nomen Nescio <nobody@dizum.com> - 2012-04-22 13:28 +0200
                Re: Indirect Bit nmm1@cam.ac.uk - 2012-04-22 13:04 +0100
                Re: Indirect Bit Fritz Wuehler <fritz@spamexpire-201204.rodent.frell.theremailer.net> - 2012-04-22 23:00 +0200
                Re: Indirect Bit Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2012-04-22 18:05 -0400
                Re: Indirect Bit glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2012-04-22 23:20 +0000
                Re: Indirect Bit nmm1@cam.ac.uk - 2012-04-23 08:22 +0100
                Re: Indirect Bit Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2012-04-22 03:56 -0700
                Re: Indirect Bit EricP <ThatWouldBeTelling@thevillage.com> - 2012-04-22 12:28 -0400
                Re: Indirect Bit Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2012-04-22 12:56 -0500
                Re: Indirect Bit Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2012-04-22 13:15 -0700
                Re: Indirect Bit Nomen Nescio <nobody@dizum.com> - 2012-04-22 22:30 +0200
                Re: Indirect Bit nmm1@cam.ac.uk - 2012-04-22 21:40 +0100
                Re: Indirect Bit Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2012-04-22 17:15 -0500
                Re: Indirect Bit nmm1@cam.ac.uk - 2012-04-23 08:26 +0100
                Re: Indirect Bit Stephen Fuld <SFuld@alumni.cmu.edu.invalid> - 2012-04-23 08:02 -0700
                Re: Indirect Bit nmm1@cam.ac.uk - 2012-04-23 17:02 +0100
                Re: Indirect Bit Fritz Wuehler <fritz@spamexpire-201204.rodent.frell.theremailer.net> - 2012-04-23 20:17 +0200
                Re: Indirect Bit Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2012-04-23 13:07 -0500
                Re: Indirect Bit Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2012-04-22 13:16 -0700
                Re: Indirect Bit MitchAlsup <MitchAlsup@aol.com> - 2012-04-23 13:14 -0700
                Re: Indirect Bit Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2012-04-23 16:51 -0400
                Re: Indirect Bit Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2012-04-23 14:22 -0700
                Re: Indirect Bit MitchAlsup <MitchAlsup@aol.com> - 2012-04-21 11:17 -0700
        Re: Indirect Bit jacko <jackokring@gmail.com> - 2012-04-14 08:02 -0700

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