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Groups > sci.physics > #567701 > unrolled thread
| Started by | "Robert Clark" <rgregoryclark@gmSPAMBLOACKail.com> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2016-04-03 12:52 -0400 |
| Last post | 2016-04-12 23:56 -0700 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 450 — 19 participants |
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Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon "Robert Clark" <rgregoryclark@gmSPAMBLOACKail.com> - 2016-04-03 12:52 -0400
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-03 17:07 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> - 2016-04-04 15:20 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-04 18:35 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Double-A <double-a3@hush.com> - 2016-04-04 12:14 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-04 12:58 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Jack Ryan <mixmaster@remailer.cpunk.us> - 2016-04-05 03:50 -0400
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-05 18:20 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-05 16:14 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2016-04-05 18:47 -0500
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-06 00:00 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Jeff Findley <jfindley@cinci.nospam.rr.com> - 2016-04-07 06:10 -0400
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-07 18:51 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2016-04-08 14:23 -0500
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-08 13:25 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2016-04-09 09:57 -0500
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 10:20 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2016-04-17 12:53 -0500
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-17 13:01 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2016-04-17 19:38 -0500
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-18 00:27 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-06 00:28 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon "Robert Clark" <rgregoryclark@gmSPAMBLOACKail.com> - 2016-04-05 22:14 -0400
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-06 03:38 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Mikkel Haaheim <mikkelhaaheim@gmail.com> - 2016-04-13 00:27 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-13 17:35 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon "Robert Clark" <rgregoryclark@gmSPAMBLOACKail.com> - 2016-04-16 11:58 -0400
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-16 16:17 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-06 00:07 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Jeff Findley <jfindley@cinci.nospam.rr.com> - 2016-04-07 06:24 -0400
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-07 19:03 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> - 2016-04-05 19:53 -0600
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-06 03:42 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> - 2016-04-05 23:06 -0600
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-06 18:05 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-06 12:34 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2016-04-07 19:18 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-07 13:04 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2016-04-07 21:07 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-08 00:03 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2016-04-08 17:50 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-08 13:03 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2016-04-08 21:47 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-08 21:24 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2016-04-09 13:55 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2016-04-09 10:08 -0500
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 08:51 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 18:07 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 12:49 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 20:16 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 19:07 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-10 06:16 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 06:46 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-10 16:23 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 15:19 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-10 22:49 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 20:02 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-11 04:05 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-11 01:41 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-11 18:18 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-11 19:20 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2016-04-17 12:53 -0500
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-17 13:02 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2016-04-10 12:06 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 06:57 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2016-04-10 14:17 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 08:26 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2016-04-10 16:40 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 15:38 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2016-04-11 19:06 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-11 19:50 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-11 20:02 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-12 17:16 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-12 15:03 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-11 19:54 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-12 17:18 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-12 15:04 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-12 22:33 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-12 21:48 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-13 05:02 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-13 00:07 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-13 17:35 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-13 12:23 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-13 20:09 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-13 13:36 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-13 21:06 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-13 19:24 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-14 02:51 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-13 21:03 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-14 04:36 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 00:56 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-14 18:02 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 13:40 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-14 22:09 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 15:40 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-14 22:53 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 17:24 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-15 00:42 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 19:24 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-15 04:13 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 22:02 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-15 21:04 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-15 15:21 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-15 22:42 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-16 01:33 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-16 16:22 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-16 11:07 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-16 19:20 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-16 12:52 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-16 20:44 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-16 19:35 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-17 05:22 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-16 23:55 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2016-04-17 12:54 -0500
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-17 13:03 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-07 20:26 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon HVAC <mr.hvac@gmail.com> - 2016-04-07 14:46 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-07 22:52 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon benj <none@gmail.com> - 2016-04-07 21:25 -0400
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Mikkel Haaheim <mikkelhaaheim@gmail.com> - 2016-04-13 00:39 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-13 17:39 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Mikkel Haaheim <mikkelhaaheim@gmail.com> - 2016-04-15 01:32 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-15 21:15 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Mikkel Haaheim <mikkelhaaheim@gmail.com> - 2016-04-16 08:51 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-16 16:28 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Mikkel Haaheim <mikkelhaaheim@gmail.com> - 2016-04-16 10:44 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-16 18:03 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Mikkel Haaheim <mikkelhaaheim@gmail.com> - 2016-04-16 10:24 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-16 17:47 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Mikkel Haaheim <mikkelhaaheim@gmail.com> - 2016-04-17 00:59 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-17 17:29 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-07 23:49 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-08 18:24 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-08 13:10 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-08 22:40 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-08 21:55 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 06:11 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 07:49 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 18:21 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 12:57 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 20:29 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 19:30 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> - 2016-04-09 00:01 -0600
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Thomas Womack <twomack@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2016-04-09 09:21 +0100
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 18:24 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> - 2016-04-09 15:49 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon HVAC <mr.hvac@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 09:01 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon benj <none@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 14:22 -0400
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 18:26 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 10:45 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 19:08 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 13:22 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 20:41 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 19:50 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> - 2016-04-06 17:39 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-06 18:08 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-06 12:36 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-07 19:06 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-07 12:59 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-07 20:28 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-07 23:52 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-08 18:26 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-08 13:14 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-08 22:42 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-08 21:57 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 06:14 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 07:52 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2016-04-09 10:09 -0500
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 18:31 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 13:00 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 20:34 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 19:42 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2016-04-12 21:07 -0500
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-12 22:25 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> - 2016-04-07 15:55 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-07 19:14 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> - 2016-04-09 14:54 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 18:36 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 13:00 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 20:36 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 19:44 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-10 06:19 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 06:47 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> - 2016-04-09 18:17 -0600
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-10 00:37 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> - 2016-04-10 16:50 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-10 17:13 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> - 2016-04-11 16:41 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-11 18:21 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> - 2016-04-12 15:48 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-12 17:21 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2016-04-12 21:08 -0500
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-12 22:26 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Mikkel Haaheim <mikkelhaaheim@gmail.com> - 2016-04-12 23:50 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-13 17:43 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Mikkel Haaheim <mikkelhaaheim@gmail.com> - 2016-04-15 01:44 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-15 21:19 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Mikkel Haaheim <mikkelhaaheim@gmail.com> - 2016-04-16 02:02 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-16 16:38 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Mikkel Haaheim <mikkelhaaheim@gmail.com> - 2016-04-16 10:29 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-16 18:00 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Mikkel Haaheim <mikkelhaaheim@gmail.com> - 2016-04-16 10:38 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-16 18:12 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> - 2016-04-05 17:42 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-05 18:32 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon benj <none@gmail.com> - 2016-04-05 15:09 -0400
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2016-04-05 18:54 -0500
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> - 2016-04-05 19:57 -0600
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> - 2016-04-06 17:56 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-06 18:35 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon benj <none@gmail.com> - 2016-04-06 15:43 -0400
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-06 20:08 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-06 16:35 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-06 23:49 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-06 19:28 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-07 03:51 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-06 22:06 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-07 06:17 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-07 12:32 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-07 20:33 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-08 00:01 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-08 18:32 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-08 13:16 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-08 22:52 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-08 21:59 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 06:18 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 07:57 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 18:45 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 13:05 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 20:54 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 20:01 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-10 16:42 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 16:12 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-11 01:10 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 20:22 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-11 06:09 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-11 07:36 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-11 18:26 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-11 19:24 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-12 17:24 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-12 15:08 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2016-04-12 21:08 -0500
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon HVAC <mr.hvac@gmail.com> - 2016-04-07 04:43 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-06 12:51 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-06 22:06 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-06 17:11 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-07 04:30 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-06 23:31 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-07 19:56 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-07 14:16 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-07 22:34 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-08 01:06 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-08 18:48 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-08 13:18 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-08 22:59 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-08 22:00 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 06:19 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 08:00 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 18:49 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 13:05 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 20:57 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 20:05 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-10 16:44 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 16:14 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-11 01:12 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 20:23 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-11 06:14 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-11 07:38 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-11 18:29 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-11 19:25 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-12 17:26 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-12 15:11 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2016-04-12 21:09 -0500
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-12 22:26 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2016-04-08 20:29 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-08 23:05 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon HVAC <mr.hvac@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 04:42 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> - 2016-04-07 16:20 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-07 20:09 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-07 14:26 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-07 22:43 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-08 01:22 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-08 18:51 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-08 13:19 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-08 23:12 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Uncle Steve <stevet810@gmail.com> - 2016-04-08 05:49 -0400
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 06:26 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 08:05 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 18:54 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 13:10 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 21:03 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 20:11 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-10 06:23 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 06:50 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-10 16:49 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 16:16 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-11 01:14 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 20:26 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-11 06:16 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-11 07:40 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-11 18:30 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-11 19:27 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-12 17:27 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon HVAC <mr.hvac@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 06:55 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-10 16:59 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2016-04-07 21:40 -0500
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> - 2016-04-09 15:29 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 19:02 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 13:20 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 21:14 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 20:20 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-10 17:07 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 17:37 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-11 01:29 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 20:44 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-11 06:35 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-11 08:11 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-11 19:05 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-11 19:51 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-12 18:08 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-12 15:28 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-12 23:07 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-12 22:05 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-13 17:51 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-13 12:53 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-13 20:31 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-13 18:54 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-14 03:22 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-13 21:39 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-14 18:01 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 13:39 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-14 22:24 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 16:53 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-15 00:22 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 18:28 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-15 01:47 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 20:23 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-15 04:35 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 22:49 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-15 21:32 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-15 15:48 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-15 23:43 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon HVAC <mr.hvac@gmail.com> - 2016-04-13 04:26 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> - 2016-04-10 17:22 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-10 17:56 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 17:44 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-11 01:30 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 20:46 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-11 05:21 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-11 01:43 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> - 2016-04-11 16:48 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Rick Jones <rick.jones2@hpe.com> - 2016-04-11 18:52 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-11 19:08 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> - 2016-04-12 15:53 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-12 18:23 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-12 15:32 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-12 23:13 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-12 22:06 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-13 17:52 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-13 12:54 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-13 20:33 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-13 19:09 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-14 04:06 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 00:45 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> - 2016-04-13 15:39 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-13 09:34 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-13 17:59 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-13 12:57 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-13 20:34 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-13 19:15 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-14 04:06 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 00:47 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-14 18:05 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 14:30 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-14 22:26 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 16:56 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-15 00:25 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 18:30 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-15 02:09 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 21:41 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-15 21:33 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-15 15:49 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-15 23:46 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-16 02:38 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-16 16:57 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-16 11:25 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-16 19:21 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-16 12:55 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-16 20:49 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-16 19:39 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-17 05:23 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-16 23:58 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> - 2016-04-14 16:46 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-14 18:06 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 14:31 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-14 22:27 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 16:56 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-15 00:26 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 18:32 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-15 02:10 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 21:41 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-15 21:34 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-15 15:50 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-13 17:53 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-13 12:56 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-13 20:35 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-13 19:17 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-14 04:07 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 00:48 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-14 18:08 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 14:35 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-14 22:29 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 17:05 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-15 00:32 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 19:20 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-15 21:38 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-15 16:00 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-15 23:52 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-16 02:49 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-16 16:59 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Mikkel Haaheim <mikkelhaaheim@gmail.com> - 2016-04-16 10:49 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-16 18:16 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Mikkel Haaheim <mikkelhaaheim@gmail.com> - 2016-04-17 00:32 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-17 17:35 +0000
Name calling is allowed/expected. Jeff-Relf.Me <@.> - 2016-04-16 12:00 -0700
Re: Name calling is allowed/expected. benj <nobodyxx@gmail> - 2016-04-16 15:14 -0400
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-16 11:26 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-16 19:22 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-16 12:54 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-11 19:12 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-12 18:24 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-12 15:34 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-12 23:15 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon noTthaTguY <abu.kuanysh05@gmail.com> - 2016-04-12 17:36 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2016-04-12 21:10 -0500
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-12 22:18 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-13 18:07 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-13 13:01 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-13 20:39 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-13 19:22 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-14 04:08 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 00:49 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-14 18:10 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 14:39 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-14 22:30 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 17:07 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-15 00:34 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 19:21 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-15 21:39 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Mikkel Haaheim <mikkelhaaheim@gmail.com> - 2016-04-12 23:56 -0700
Page 17 of 23 — ← Prev page 1 … 15 16 [17] 18 19 … 23 Next page →
| From | Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-12 15:28 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <6nsqgb1ajican66m5nonnd1t8cbttpip1a@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #569948 |
jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote:
>> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>>
>>>In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>>>
>>><snip>
>>>
>>>>>This goes along with you being unable to understand some people came
>>>>>to the Americas just to get away from Europe and live their lives on
>>>>>a farm, some came for business reasons and some came to spread the
>>>>>word of God. And there were yet more reasons.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> So they didn't come for ROI at all, despite your earlier puling.
>>>
>>>What part of the word "some" and "yet more reasons" did you not understand,
>>>space cadet?
>>>
>>
>> So stop puling about ROI, chimpshit.
>>
>
>Does the term ROI offend you some how?
>
No, your intellectual dishonesty offends me.
>
>>
>>>
>>><snip>
>>>
>>>>>Not worth the effort to cross the street and spit on, space cadet.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Coward, chimpshit. Like so many worthless internet piles, you're
>>>> brave as hell at the end of a wire...
>>>
>>>Are you requesting a physical confrontation, space cadet?
>>>
>>
>> You keep wanting me dead, chimpshit. Given your threats, I have good
>> reason to fear for my life and safety.
>>
>
>You have no idea what I wish unless you are now claiming to be a mind
>reader.
>
You keep saying it; "Fuck off and die". Hardly any need for inference
there.
As for being a mind reader helping with figuring out what you 'wish',
you would first have to have a mind.
>
>>
>>><snip>
>>>
>>>>>Funny that lots of fortunes were made off shipping stuff from the Americas,
>>>>>space cadet.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> But mostly from shipping stuff back, chimpshit. So now colonization
>>>> is all about the SHIPPERS making money?
>>>>
>>>
>>>So where did the money come from to acquire and ship stuff back come
>>>from, space cadet?
>>>
>>
>> So why were the colonies all always in massive debt, chimpshit?
>>
>
>You evaded the question again.
>
You evaded the question again. My question was your answer. It came
from BORROWING, which is why they were always massively in debt.
>>
>>><snip>
>>>
>>>>>Fuck off and die, space cadet.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Come make me, chimpshit.
>>>
>>>Are you rquesting a physical confrontation, space cadet?
>>>
>>
>> You keep wishing me dead, chimpshit.
>
>You have no idea what I wish unless you are now claiming to be a mind
>reader.
>
You keep saying it; "Fuck off and die". Hardly any need for inference
there.
As for being a mind reader helping with figuring out what you 'wish',
you would first have to have a mind.
>>
>>><snip>
>>>
>>>>>Yep, ever taken a survival course of any kind, space cadet?
>>>>>
>>>>>Ever had any training on the logistics of keeping people alive in a
>>>>>remote location, space cadet?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Have you, chimpshit?
>>>
>>>Yes, space cadet.
>>>
>>
>> When and where, chimpshit?
>>
>
>Survival, escape, and evasion courses.
>
Handwavium. Whose, when, and where?
>
>Your turn.
>
Force Recon, among other places.
>
>>
>>><snip>
>>>
>>>>>Lots of people watched the 1st Moon landing. How many watched the
>>>>>third one, space cadet?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Irrelevant, since they weren't being run as a reality show, chimpshit.
>>>>
>>>
>>>Nope, quite relevant, space cadet.
>>>
>>
>> Not relevant at all, chimpshit.
>>
>>>
>>>Most people find the space program to be boring, space cadet.
>>>
>>
>> That's the difference between a documentary and a reality show,
>> chimpshit.
>>
>>>
>>>Reality shows depend on some sort of conflict or the peculiarities of
>>>"different" people to keep people interested.
>>>
>>
>> Yeah. So what?
>>
>>>
>>>What would living in a pressurized tin can have to offer to keep people
>>>interested, space cadet?
>>>
>>
>> What makes you think your fantasies apply, chimpshit? And even if
>> they do, ever heard of a reality show called Big Brother? It all
>> takes place inside an isolated house.
>>
>
>Which is a game show with a prize winner and constant conflicts.
>
Reality show about people "living in (essentially) a pressurized tin
can". Now what is it you claim people won't watch again?
>>
>>>
>>><snip>
>>>
>>>>>So where is the benefit to those shipped off, space cadet?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> You'd have to ask the 200,000+ who volunteered, chimpshit. Reality
>>>> has rather neatly exploded your idiotic position that no one would
>>>> ever volunteer for such a trip.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Will they get residuals from the TV show?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Ask them.
>>>
>>>And here I thought you were supposed to know everything, space cadet.
>>>
>>
>> Knowing more than you is hardly knowing 'everything', chimpshit. In
>> fact, knowing more than you is just a pretty low bar...
>>
>
>You evaded the question again.
>
You didn't ask a question I haven't answered, chimpshit.
>>>
>>>I would suppose that for a lot of the first batch it would be the
>>>adventure of it all, but that would all go away after the first baby
>>>was born.
>>>
>>
>> I would suggest that no one should accept what you would 'suggest'.
>
>You evaded the question again.
>
You didn't ask a question I haven't answered, chimpshit.
>>
>>>
>>><snip>
>>>
>>>>>The revolutions took care of that, space cadet, and that was for the
>>>>>colonies that were established to be a business, which not all colonies
>>>>>were.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> So your position is that colonies become 'profitable' by defaulting
>>>> and shooting at those they owe money to? Yeah, that sounds like
>>>> something you'd believe.
>>>
>>>You are the one that brought up debt of the colonies as a entity,
>>>space cadet.
>>>
>>
>> Non sequitur, chimpshit.
>
>Most of what you post is a non sequitur to evade questions.
>
So this is your latest tactic; don't ask a question and then whinge
about it not being answered?
>
>>
>>><snip>
>>>
>>>>>I don't think you can just let go of something on Mars and have it
>>>>>fall back to Earth in one piece, space cadet.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> And you think a little shove with a solid rocket motor costs what,
>>>> chimpshit? Gravity does practically all the work. I'm sorry you're
>>>> stupid, chimpshit.
>>>
>>>Then getting to Mars in the first place must be pretty simple, space
>>>cadet. It is the same gravity potential both ways.
>>>
>>
>> Wow! Just 'wow'! Slide down a water slide, chimpshit. Now slide up
>> one. It ought to be easy, what with it being the same gravity
>> potential both ways...
>>
>
>That has to be the dumbest thing I've read in a long time.
>
Exactly what you said with regard to how getting to Mars must be so
easy.
>
>>
>>><snip>
>>>
>>>>>Incas and Mayans?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> After how many thousand years to organize? But colonies must be
>>>> 'instant' according to you, chimp. ROI and all that.
>>>
>>>There go those voices in your head again, space cadet.
>>>
>>
>> Only because you keep puling, chimpshit.
>>
>
>Because you read what you want to see, not what is wrtiten.
>
Irony, thy name is chimpshit.
>
>>
>>>
>>>What I said was it is possible to survive and thrive in the Americas
>>>without outside supply as shown by the millions of people that lived
>>>in the Americas before the Europeans showed up.
>>>
>>
>> And what was shown by the millions who died and all those who didn't
>> survive. Learn something on the original population of the Americas,
>> chimpshit.
>>
>
>There were somewhere between 50 million and 100 million people in the
>Americas before Europeans showed up, so survival couldn't have been
>to terribly difficult.
>
Apparently it was.
>
>>
>>><snip>
>>>
>>>>>It took Spain huge armys and payed for local help to conquer them.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> No. Again your history is deficient. Cortez took down the Aztec
>>>> Empire with 630 people, including women, slaves, and ships' crews. No
>>>> "vast army" at all. In fact, when the histories are examined, NONE of
>>>> Cortez' expedition are referred to as 'soldiers'.
>>>
>>>"The army with which Hernan Cortes besieged Tenochtitlan was composed of
>>>200,000 soldiers.."
>>>
>>
>> Finish the quote, you dishonest shit. "... of which fewer than 1%
>> were Spaniards." No "vast Spanish army" at all. Pit the locals
>> against each other was the name of the game.
>
>What part of "payed for local help" did you not understand?
>
What part of "not a vast Spanish army at all" did you not understand?
Spain fielded tiny forces, at best.
>>>
>>>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conquistador
>>>
>>><snip>
>>>
>>>>>There were millions of people in the Americas before the Europeans
>>>>>killed the vast majority of them with European diseases.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> And almost all of them were living at a subsistence level and barely
>>>> surviving, even within the two empires you mention.
>>>
>>>Oh bullshit.
>>>
>>
>> More like chimpshit.
>>
>>>
>>>Even if that were true, it still does not mean that is is not possible
>>>to survive in the Americas without resupply from Europe, instead it
>>>proves that it is.
>>>
>>>And those were essentially Bronze Age civilizations and no one knows
>>>how they would have eventually developed if Europe didn't exist.
>>>
>>
>> We know how they would have developed. They hadn't advanced in
>> centuries. Most 'civilizations' in the Americas were stone age, with
>> a little bit of copper age in South America and perhaps a handful of
>> bronze age.
>>
>
>And it took centuries for Europeans to advance.
>
And in a thousand years indigenous peoples in the Americas had not.
>
>Europe had the technology motivator of war between neighboring empires,
>like England, France, Italy, Germany, etc.
>
>The Aztecs, Incas, and Mayans were too far apart to fight each other.
>
What a silly remark. The big empires may have been "too far apart to
fight each other", but there was constant fighting in and around both.
>>
>>><snip>
>>>
>>>>>Prime it with what, enough ice comets to create oceans, space cadet?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The same way Earth colonies were 'primed' with things like spinning
>>>> wheels, axes, and plows, dishonest chimpshit. You bring power and
>>>> supplies to get started and last a while. Then you build shit. Wow,
>>>> what a concept. Obviously much too obscure for a fine mind like yours
>>>> to figure out.
>>>
>>>Nope, it takes a global supply and transportation system to support
>>>21st century technology all of which has to be payed for by somebody,
>>>space cadet.
>>>
>>
>> Now you're talking way, WAY belying 'survival', chimpshit. Make up
>> your mind. Now a colony has to instantly have and maintain the
>> standard of living of Connecticut?
>
>Nope to remain conscious for longer than 5 seconds.
>
That's not the level of technology you keep calling out for a Mars
colony.
>>>
>>>That is quite a bit more than just "build shit", space cadet.
>>>
>>
>> Keep shifting ground, chimpshit. It just makes you look desperate.
>> Your line was 'survive'. Now it's "live in rich suburbia". Wriggle,
>> wriggle, little chimpshit...
>
>Nope to remain conscious for longer than 5 seconds.
>
I rather wish you could remain conscious for any time at all.
--
"Some people get lost in thought because it's such unfamiliar
territory."
--G. Behn
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-12 23:07 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <klb0uc-ndh.ln1@mail.specsol.com> |
| In reply to | #570016 |
In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote: > jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: > >>In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote: >>> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: >>> >>>>In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: >>>> >>>><snip> >>>> >>>>>>This goes along with you being unable to understand some people came >>>>>>to the Americas just to get away from Europe and live their lives on >>>>>>a farm, some came for business reasons and some came to spread the >>>>>>word of God. And there were yet more reasons. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> So they didn't come for ROI at all, despite your earlier puling. >>>> >>>>What part of the word "some" and "yet more reasons" did you not understand, >>>>space cadet? >>>> >>> >>> So stop puling about ROI, chimpshit. >>> >> >>Does the term ROI offend you some how? >> > > No, your intellectual dishonesty offends me. Your lack of understanding ROI offends me. >>> >>>> >>>><snip> >>>> >>>>>>Not worth the effort to cross the street and spit on, space cadet. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Coward, chimpshit. Like so many worthless internet piles, you're >>>>> brave as hell at the end of a wire... >>>> >>>>Are you requesting a physical confrontation, space cadet? >>>> >>> >>> You keep wanting me dead, chimpshit. Given your threats, I have good >>> reason to fear for my life and safety. >>> >> >>You have no idea what I wish unless you are now claiming to be a mind >>reader. >> > > You keep saying it; "Fuck off and die". Hardly any need for inference > there. Four simple words and you can't understand the meaning. > >> >>> >>>><snip> >>>> >>>>>>Funny that lots of fortunes were made off shipping stuff from the Americas, >>>>>>space cadet. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> But mostly from shipping stuff back, chimpshit. So now colonization >>>>> is all about the SHIPPERS making money? >>>>> >>>> >>>>So where did the money come from to acquire and ship stuff back come >>>>from, space cadet? >>>> >>> >>> So why were the colonies all always in massive debt, chimpshit? >>> >> >>You evaded the question again. >> > > You evaded the question again. My question was your answer. It came > from BORROWING, which is why they were always massively in debt. Before anyone can borrow, they have to have something, even if just a business plan, to borrow against. Credit does not last long if you miss payments. Where did the money come from to make the payments? >>> >>>><snip> >>>> >>>>>>Fuck off and die, space cadet. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Come make me, chimpshit. >>>> >>>>Are you rquesting a physical confrontation, space cadet? >>>> >>> >>> You keep wishing me dead, chimpshit. >> >>You have no idea what I wish unless you are now claiming to be a mind >>reader. >> > > You keep saying it; "Fuck off and die". Hardly any need for inference > there. > > As for being a mind reader helping with figuring out what you 'wish', > you would first have to have a mind. Fuck off and die. >>> >>>><snip> >>>> >>>>>>Yep, ever taken a survival course of any kind, space cadet? >>>>>> >>>>>>Ever had any training on the logistics of keeping people alive in a >>>>>>remote location, space cadet? >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Have you, chimpshit? >>>> >>>>Yes, space cadet. >>>> >>> >>> When and where, chimpshit? >>> >> >>Survival, escape, and evasion courses. >> > > Handwavium. Whose, when, and where? Irrelevant. Particularly irrelevant to a colony on Mars. > >> >>Your turn. >> > > Force Recon, among other places. > >> >>> >>>><snip> >>>> >>>>>>Lots of people watched the 1st Moon landing. How many watched the >>>>>>third one, space cadet? >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Irrelevant, since they weren't being run as a reality show, chimpshit. >>>>> >>>> >>>>Nope, quite relevant, space cadet. >>>> >>> >>> Not relevant at all, chimpshit. >>> >>>> >>>>Most people find the space program to be boring, space cadet. >>>> >>> >>> That's the difference between a documentary and a reality show, >>> chimpshit. >>> >>>> >>>>Reality shows depend on some sort of conflict or the peculiarities of >>>>"different" people to keep people interested. >>>> >>> >>> Yeah. So what? >>> >>>> >>>>What would living in a pressurized tin can have to offer to keep people >>>>interested, space cadet? >>>> >>> >>> What makes you think your fantasies apply, chimpshit? And even if >>> they do, ever heard of a reality show called Big Brother? It all >>> takes place inside an isolated house. >>> >> >>Which is a game show with a prize winner and constant conflicts. >> > > Reality show about people "living in (essentially) a pressurized tin > can". Now what is it you claim people won't watch again? What will be the conflict and prize for the winner of this Martian reality show? > >>> >>>> >>>><snip> >>>> >>>>>>So where is the benefit to those shipped off, space cadet? >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> You'd have to ask the 200,000+ who volunteered, chimpshit. Reality >>>>> has rather neatly exploded your idiotic position that no one would >>>>> ever volunteer for such a trip. >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>Will they get residuals from the TV show? >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Ask them. >>>> >>>>And here I thought you were supposed to know everything, space cadet. >>>> >>> >>> Knowing more than you is hardly knowing 'everything', chimpshit. In >>> fact, knowing more than you is just a pretty low bar... >>> >> >>You evaded the question again. >> > > You didn't ask a question I haven't answered, chimpshit. Sure I did, you just avoided it so long you forgot the question, space cadet. Will they get residuals from the TV show? > >>>> >>>>I would suppose that for a lot of the first batch it would be the >>>>adventure of it all, but that would all go away after the first baby >>>>was born. >>>> >>> >>> I would suggest that no one should accept what you would 'suggest'. >> >>You evaded the question again. >> > > You didn't ask a question I haven't answered, chimpshit. Sure I did, you just avoided it so long you forgot the question, space cadet. What would be the motivation to spend your life on Mars? >>>> >>>><snip> >>>> >>>>>>The revolutions took care of that, space cadet, and that was for the >>>>>>colonies that were established to be a business, which not all colonies >>>>>>were. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> So your position is that colonies become 'profitable' by defaulting >>>>> and shooting at those they owe money to? Yeah, that sounds like >>>>> something you'd believe. >>>> >>>>You are the one that brought up debt of the colonies as a entity, >>>>space cadet. >>>> >>> >>> Non sequitur, chimpshit. >> >>Most of what you post is a non sequitur to evade questions. >> > > So this is your latest tactic; don't ask a question and then whinge > about it not being answered? You just spend so long avoiding questions you forget what they were, space cadet. >> >>> >>>><snip> >>>> >>>>>>I don't think you can just let go of something on Mars and have it >>>>>>fall back to Earth in one piece, space cadet. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> And you think a little shove with a solid rocket motor costs what, >>>>> chimpshit? Gravity does practically all the work. I'm sorry you're >>>>> stupid, chimpshit. >>>> >>>>Then getting to Mars in the first place must be pretty simple, space >>>>cadet. It is the same gravity potential both ways. >>>> >>> >>> Wow! Just 'wow'! Slide down a water slide, chimpshit. Now slide up >>> one. It ought to be easy, what with it being the same gravity >>> potential both ways... >>> >> >>That has to be the dumbest thing I've read in a long time. >> > > Exactly what you said with regard to how getting to Mars must be so > easy. Exactly what you said with regard to how getting to Earth must be so easy. >>> >>>><snip> >>>> >>>>>>Incas and Mayans? >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> After how many thousand years to organize? But colonies must be >>>>> 'instant' according to you, chimp. ROI and all that. >>>> >>>>There go those voices in your head again, space cadet. >>>> >>> >>> Only because you keep puling, chimpshit. >>> >> >>Because you read what you want to see, not what is wrtiten. >> > > Irony, thy name is chimpshit. Idiosy, thy name is space cadet. >>> >>>> >>>>What I said was it is possible to survive and thrive in the Americas >>>>without outside supply as shown by the millions of people that lived >>>>in the Americas before the Europeans showed up. >>>> >>> >>> And what was shown by the millions who died and all those who didn't >>> survive. Learn something on the original population of the Americas, >>> chimpshit. >>> >> >>There were somewhere between 50 million and 100 million people in the >>Americas before Europeans showed up, so survival couldn't have been >>to terribly difficult. >> > > Apparently it was. Easy enough that the population was somewhere between 50 million and 100 million people and growing. >> >>> >>>><snip> >>>> >>>>>>It took Spain huge armys and payed for local help to conquer them. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> No. Again your history is deficient. Cortez took down the Aztec >>>>> Empire with 630 people, including women, slaves, and ships' crews. No >>>>> "vast army" at all. In fact, when the histories are examined, NONE of >>>>> Cortez' expedition are referred to as 'soldiers'. >>>> >>>>"The army with which Hernan Cortes besieged Tenochtitlan was composed of >>>>200,000 soldiers.." >>>> >>> >>> Finish the quote, you dishonest shit. "... of which fewer than 1% >>> were Spaniards." No "vast Spanish army" at all. Pit the locals >>> against each other was the name of the game. >> >>What part of "payed for local help" did you not understand? >> > > What part of "not a vast Spanish army at all" did you not understand? > Spain fielded tiny forces, at best. Mercenaries were a part of the Spanish military force and lead by Spanish military leaders. Where the cannon fodder originates from is irrelevant. And military conquests are irrelevant to Martian colonies unless the Martians are hiding underground. >>>> >>>>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conquistador >>>> >>>><snip> >>>> >>>>>>There were millions of people in the Americas before the Europeans >>>>>>killed the vast majority of them with European diseases. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> And almost all of them were living at a subsistence level and barely >>>>> surviving, even within the two empires you mention. >>>> >>>>Oh bullshit. >>>> >>> >>> More like chimpshit. >>> >>>> >>>>Even if that were true, it still does not mean that is is not possible >>>>to survive in the Americas without resupply from Europe, instead it >>>>proves that it is. >>>> >>>>And those were essentially Bronze Age civilizations and no one knows >>>>how they would have eventually developed if Europe didn't exist. >>>> >>> >>> We know how they would have developed. They hadn't advanced in >>> centuries. Most 'civilizations' in the Americas were stone age, with >>> a little bit of copper age in South America and perhaps a handful of >>> bronze age. >>> >> >>And it took centuries for Europeans to advance. >> > > And in a thousand years indigenous peoples in the Americas had not. Which does NOT mean they never would. And it is irrelevant to a colony on Mars. > >> >>Europe had the technology motivator of war between neighboring empires, >>like England, France, Italy, Germany, etc. >> >>The Aztecs, Incas, and Mayans were too far apart to fight each other. >> > > What a silly remark. The big empires may have been "too far apart to > fight each other", but there was constant fighting in and around both. Not nation states at war, and it is irrelevant to colonies on Mars. > >>> >>>><snip> >>>> >>>>>>Prime it with what, enough ice comets to create oceans, space cadet? >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> The same way Earth colonies were 'primed' with things like spinning >>>>> wheels, axes, and plows, dishonest chimpshit. You bring power and >>>>> supplies to get started and last a while. Then you build shit. Wow, >>>>> what a concept. Obviously much too obscure for a fine mind like yours >>>>> to figure out. >>>> >>>>Nope, it takes a global supply and transportation system to support >>>>21st century technology all of which has to be payed for by somebody, >>>>space cadet. >>>> >>> >>> Now you're talking way, WAY belying 'survival', chimpshit. Make up >>> your mind. Now a colony has to instantly have and maintain the >>> standard of living of Connecticut? >> >>Nope to remain conscious for longer than 5 seconds. >> > > That's not the level of technology you keep calling out for a Mars > colony. Sure it is. To survive longer than 5 seconds on Mars takes a big pile of 21st century technology, all of which must be maintained. >>>> >>>>That is quite a bit more than just "build shit", space cadet. >>>> >>> >>> Keep shifting ground, chimpshit. It just makes you look desperate. >>> Your line was 'survive'. Now it's "live in rich suburbia". Wriggle, >>> wriggle, little chimpshit... >> >>Nope to remain conscious for longer than 5 seconds. >> > > I rather wish you could remain conscious for any time at all. Hey, that's how they could keep people interested in a Martian reality show, have an explosive decompression and watch people die in seconds. -- Jim Pennino
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| From | Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-12 22:05 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <5vjrgb12k1q8atdd8i8ktkh8ltua3dk2fe@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #570033 |
jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: >In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote: >> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: >> >>>In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: >>>> >>>>>In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: >>>>> >>>>><snip> >>>>> >>>>>>>This goes along with you being unable to understand some people came >>>>>>>to the Americas just to get away from Europe and live their lives on >>>>>>>a farm, some came for business reasons and some came to spread the >>>>>>>word of God. And there were yet more reasons. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> So they didn't come for ROI at all, despite your earlier puling. >>>>> >>>>>What part of the word "some" and "yet more reasons" did you not understand, >>>>>space cadet? >>>>> >>>> >>>> So stop puling about ROI, chimpshit. >>>> >>> >>>Does the term ROI offend you some how? >>> >> >> No, your intellectual dishonesty offends me. >> > >Your lack of understanding ROI offends me. > So you're offended by your own stupidity, then, since your wet dreams are the only place I don't understand ROI. >>>> >>>>> >>>>><snip> >>>>> >>>>>>>Not worth the effort to cross the street and spit on, space cadet. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Coward, chimpshit. Like so many worthless internet piles, you're >>>>>> brave as hell at the end of a wire... >>>>> >>>>>Are you requesting a physical confrontation, space cadet? >>>>> >>>> >>>> You keep wanting me dead, chimpshit. Given your threats, I have good >>>> reason to fear for my life and safety. >>>> >>> >>>You have no idea what I wish unless you are now claiming to be a mind >>>reader. >>> >> >> You keep saying it; "Fuck off and die". Hardly any need for inference >> there. > >Four simple words and you can't understand the meaning. > You keep saying "die". Look it up. > >> >>> >>>> >>>>><snip> >>>>> >>>>>>>Funny that lots of fortunes were made off shipping stuff from the Americas, >>>>>>>space cadet. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> But mostly from shipping stuff back, chimpshit. So now colonization >>>>>> is all about the SHIPPERS making money? >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>So where did the money come from to acquire and ship stuff back come >>>>>from, space cadet? >>>>> >>>> >>>> So why were the colonies all always in massive debt, chimpshit? >>>> >>> >>>You evaded the question again. >>> >> >> You evaded the question again. My question was your answer. It came >> from BORROWING, which is why they were always massively in debt. >> > >Before anyone can borrow, they have to have something, even if just >a business plan, to borrow against. Credit does not last long if you >miss payments. > >Where did the money come from to make the payments? > More borrowing, which is why they were in perpetually increasing debt. >>>> >>>>><snip> >>>>> >>>>>>>Fuck off and die, space cadet. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Come make me, chimpshit. >>>>> >>>>>Are you rquesting a physical confrontation, space cadet? >>>>> >>>> >>>> You keep wishing me dead, chimpshit. >>> >>>You have no idea what I wish unless you are now claiming to be a mind >>>reader. >>> >> >> You keep saying it; "Fuck off and die". Hardly any need for inference >> there. >> >> As for being a mind reader helping with figuring out what you 'wish', >> you would first have to have a mind. > >Fuck off and die. > Come make me. >>>> >>>>><snip> >>>>> >>>>>>>Yep, ever taken a survival course of any kind, space cadet? >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Ever had any training on the logistics of keeping people alive in a >>>>>>>remote location, space cadet? >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Have you, chimpshit? >>>>> >>>>>Yes, space cadet. >>>>> >>>> >>>> When and where, chimpshit? >>>> >>> >>>Survival, escape, and evasion courses. >>> >> >> Handwavium. Whose, when, and where? >> > >Irrelevant. > >Particularly irrelevant to a colony on Mars. > So you dodge the question yet again. > >> >>> >>>Your turn. >>> >> >> Force Recon, among other places. >> >>> >>>> >>>>><snip> >>>>> >>>>>>>Lots of people watched the 1st Moon landing. How many watched the >>>>>>>third one, space cadet? >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Irrelevant, since they weren't being run as a reality show, chimpshit. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>Nope, quite relevant, space cadet. >>>>> >>>> >>>> Not relevant at all, chimpshit. >>>> >>>>> >>>>>Most people find the space program to be boring, space cadet. >>>>> >>>> >>>> That's the difference between a documentary and a reality show, >>>> chimpshit. >>>> >>>>> >>>>>Reality shows depend on some sort of conflict or the peculiarities of >>>>>"different" people to keep people interested. >>>>> >>>> >>>> Yeah. So what? >>>> >>>>> >>>>>What would living in a pressurized tin can have to offer to keep people >>>>>interested, space cadet? >>>>> >>>> >>>> What makes you think your fantasies apply, chimpshit? And even if >>>> they do, ever heard of a reality show called Big Brother? It all >>>> takes place inside an isolated house. >>>> >>> >>>Which is a game show with a prize winner and constant conflicts. >>> >> >> Reality show about people "living in (essentially) a pressurized tin >> can". Now what is it you claim people won't watch again? >> > >What will be the conflict and prize for the winner of this Martian >reality show? > The conflicts are easy; both staged and real. AS for the 'prize', talk to the organizer. > >> >>>> >>>>> >>>>><snip> >>>>> >>>>>>>So where is the benefit to those shipped off, space cadet? >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> You'd have to ask the 200,000+ who volunteered, chimpshit. Reality >>>>>> has rather neatly exploded your idiotic position that no one would >>>>>> ever volunteer for such a trip. >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Will they get residuals from the TV show? >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Ask them. >>>>> >>>>>And here I thought you were supposed to know everything, space cadet. >>>>> >>>> >>>> Knowing more than you is hardly knowing 'everything', chimpshit. In >>>> fact, knowing more than you is just a pretty low bar... >>>> >>> >>>You evaded the question again. >>> >> >> You didn't ask a question I haven't answered, chimpshit. >> > >Sure I did, you just avoided it so long you forgot the question, space >cadet. > You didn't ask any question I haven't answered. > >Will they get residuals from the TV show? > ANSWER: I have no idea. You'll have to ask them. See that? That's an ANSWER. I gave it to you before. > >> >>>>> >>>>>I would suppose that for a lot of the first batch it would be the >>>>>adventure of it all, but that would all go away after the first baby >>>>>was born. >>>>> >>>> >>>> I would suggest that no one should accept what you would 'suggest'. >>> >>>You evaded the question again. >>> >> >> You didn't ask a question I haven't answered, chimpshit. >> > >Sure I did, you just avoided it so long you forgot the question, space >cadet. > Nope. You just didn't like the answer. > >What would be the motivation to spend your life on Mars? > ANSWER: You'll have to ask the 200,000+ people who volunteered to do so. I would expect their reasons are various. See that? That's an ANSWER. I gave it to you before. >>>>> >>>>><snip> >>>>> >>>>>>>The revolutions took care of that, space cadet, and that was for the >>>>>>>colonies that were established to be a business, which not all colonies >>>>>>>were. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> So your position is that colonies become 'profitable' by defaulting >>>>>> and shooting at those they owe money to? Yeah, that sounds like >>>>>> something you'd believe. >>>>> >>>>>You are the one that brought up debt of the colonies as a entity, >>>>>space cadet. >>>>> >>>> >>>> Non sequitur, chimpshit. >>> >>>Most of what you post is a non sequitur to evade questions. >>> >> >> So this is your latest tactic; don't ask a question and then whinge >> about it not being answered? >> > >You just spend so long avoiding questions you forget what they were, >space cadet. > You just spend so long pounding your chest (and your pud) that you forget you've been given answers, chimpshit. >>> >>>> >>>>><snip> >>>>> >>>>>>>I don't think you can just let go of something on Mars and have it >>>>>>>fall back to Earth in one piece, space cadet. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> And you think a little shove with a solid rocket motor costs what, >>>>>> chimpshit? Gravity does practically all the work. I'm sorry you're >>>>>> stupid, chimpshit. >>>>> >>>>>Then getting to Mars in the first place must be pretty simple, space >>>>>cadet. It is the same gravity potential both ways. >>>>> >>>> >>>> Wow! Just 'wow'! Slide down a water slide, chimpshit. Now slide up >>>> one. It ought to be easy, what with it being the same gravity >>>> potential both ways... >>>> >>> >>>That has to be the dumbest thing I've read in a long time. >>> >> >> Exactly what you said with regard to how getting to Mars must be so >> easy. >> > >Exactly what you said with regard to how getting to Earth must be so >easy. > Going down the slide is easy. Going up the slide is harder. You can't really be this thick so I have to assume it's just intellectual dishonesty. >>>> >>>>><snip> >>>>> >>>>>>>Incas and Mayans? >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> After how many thousand years to organize? But colonies must be >>>>>> 'instant' according to you, chimp. ROI and all that. >>>>> >>>>>There go those voices in your head again, space cadet. >>>>> >>>> >>>> Only because you keep puling, chimpshit. >>>> >>> >>>Because you read what you want to see, not what is wrtiten. >>> >> >> Irony, thy name is chimpshit. >> > >Idiosy, thy name is space cadet. > See what I mean about that irony... >>>> >>>>> >>>>>What I said was it is possible to survive and thrive in the Americas >>>>>without outside supply as shown by the millions of people that lived >>>>>in the Americas before the Europeans showed up. >>>>> >>>> >>>> And what was shown by the millions who died and all those who didn't >>>> survive. Learn something on the original population of the Americas, >>>> chimpshit. >>>> >>> >>>There were somewhere between 50 million and 100 million people in the >>>Americas before Europeans showed up, so survival couldn't have been >>>to terribly difficult. >>> >> >> Apparently it was. >> > >Easy enough that the population was somewhere between 50 million and 100 >million people and growing. > And then it wasn't. >>> >>>> >>>>><snip> >>>>> >>>>>>>It took Spain huge armys and payed for local help to conquer them. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> No. Again your history is deficient. Cortez took down the Aztec >>>>>> Empire with 630 people, including women, slaves, and ships' crews. No >>>>>> "vast army" at all. In fact, when the histories are examined, NONE of >>>>>> Cortez' expedition are referred to as 'soldiers'. >>>>> >>>>>"The army with which Hernan Cortes besieged Tenochtitlan was composed of >>>>>200,000 soldiers.." >>>>> >>>> >>>> Finish the quote, you dishonest shit. "... of which fewer than 1% >>>> were Spaniards." No "vast Spanish army" at all. Pit the locals >>>> against each other was the name of the game. >>> >>>What part of "payed for local help" did you not understand? >>> >> >> What part of "not a vast Spanish army at all" did you not understand? >> Spain fielded tiny forces, at best. >> > >Mercenaries were a part of the Spanish military force and lead by >Spanish military leaders. > >Where the cannon fodder originates from is irrelevant. > What a load of bollocks! Do you know ANYTHING about the conquistadors? If so, you hide it well. > >And military conquests are irrelevant to Martian colonies unless the >Martians are hiding underground. > So why did you bring up those non-existent "vast Spanish armies" in the first place? >>>>> >>>>>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conquistador >>>>> >>>>><snip> >>>>> >>>>>>>There were millions of people in the Americas before the Europeans >>>>>>>killed the vast majority of them with European diseases. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> And almost all of them were living at a subsistence level and barely >>>>>> surviving, even within the two empires you mention. >>>>> >>>>>Oh bullshit. >>>>> >>>> >>>> More like chimpshit. >>>> >>>>> >>>>>Even if that were true, it still does not mean that is is not possible >>>>>to survive in the Americas without resupply from Europe, instead it >>>>>proves that it is. >>>>> >>>>>And those were essentially Bronze Age civilizations and no one knows >>>>>how they would have eventually developed if Europe didn't exist. >>>>> >>>> >>>> We know how they would have developed. They hadn't advanced in >>>> centuries. Most 'civilizations' in the Americas were stone age, with >>>> a little bit of copper age in South America and perhaps a handful of >>>> bronze age. >>>> >>> >>>And it took centuries for Europeans to advance. >>> >> >> And in a thousand years indigenous peoples in the Americas had not. >> > >Which does NOT mean they never would. > But the odds are pretty damned high they wouldn't. Do you know anything about the development of metallurgy in the New World? > >And it is irrelevant to a colony on Mars. > Then why did you bring it up? > >> >>> >>>Europe had the technology motivator of war between neighboring empires, >>>like England, France, Italy, Germany, etc. >>> >>>The Aztecs, Incas, and Mayans were too far apart to fight each other. >>> >> >> What a silly remark. The big empires may have been "too far apart to >> fight each other", but there was constant fighting in and around both. >> > >Not nation states at war, and it is irrelevant to colonies on Mars. > You really don't understand anything about any of this, do you? Where did the Spaniards find all those people willing to fight the big empires? Answer is that those 'big empires' weren't 'nation states' the way you mean it. Think of Italy back in the city state days... >> >>>> >>>>><snip> >>>>> >>>>>>>Prime it with what, enough ice comets to create oceans, space cadet? >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> The same way Earth colonies were 'primed' with things like spinning >>>>>> wheels, axes, and plows, dishonest chimpshit. You bring power and >>>>>> supplies to get started and last a while. Then you build shit. Wow, >>>>>> what a concept. Obviously much too obscure for a fine mind like yours >>>>>> to figure out. >>>>> >>>>>Nope, it takes a global supply and transportation system to support >>>>>21st century technology all of which has to be payed for by somebody, >>>>>space cadet. >>>>> >>>> >>>> Now you're talking way, WAY belying 'survival', chimpshit. Make up >>>> your mind. Now a colony has to instantly have and maintain the >>>> standard of living of Connecticut? >>> >>>Nope to remain conscious for longer than 5 seconds. >>> >> >> That's not the level of technology you keep calling out for a Mars >> colony. >> > >Sure it is. > Liar. > >To survive longer than 5 seconds on Mars takes a big pile of 21st >century technology, all of which must be maintained. > Nope. It does initially, but then Europeans surviving in the New World took a big pile of modern (at the time) technology, too. >>>>> >>>>>That is quite a bit more than just "build shit", space cadet. >>>>> >>>> >>>> Keep shifting ground, chimpshit. It just makes you look desperate. >>>> Your line was 'survive'. Now it's "live in rich suburbia". Wriggle, >>>> wriggle, little chimpshit... >>> >>>Nope to remain conscious for longer than 5 seconds. >>> >> >> I rather wish you could remain conscious for any time at all. >> > >Hey, that's how they could keep people interested in a Martian reality >show, have an explosive decompression and watch people die in seconds. > I don't doubt that that would appeal to a dickhead like you. -- You are What you do When it counts.
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| From | jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-13 17:51 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <rhd2uc-qvn.ln1@mail.specsol.com> |
| In reply to | #570092 |
In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote: Nothing. The pre-Columbian Americas had a population estimated by scholars of somewhere beteen 50 million and 100 million people. The technology level of the more advanced civilizations was roughly equivelant to the Bronze Age in Europe and iron pre-Columbian arifacts have been found indicating they were on the leading edge of the Iron Age. Thses peoples and civilizations existed for thousands of years before any European arrived. Therefore it is obvious that support from Europe is not needed to be able to survive and thrive in the Americas. Mars on the other hand requires 21st century technology to survive for longer than about 5 seconds, i.e. the time of useful consciousness at the pressure on the surface of Mars. The pressure is so low it is below the Armstrong limit which means the human body requires a pressure suit, not just an oxygen mask. Comparing colonization on Mars to colonization of the Americas is mostly pointless on that fact alone and becomes entirely so when the complete lack of available drinking water and food sources is concidered. 21st century technology rquires global resources that are spread all over the Earth, a global transportation system to bring those resources to processing centers to make raw stock and transportation to fabricating centers to make finished goods. It is unlikely that resource distribution is any different on Mars than it is on Earth, other than the complete lack of hydrocarbon sources such as petroleum. coal, and natural gas. Until such global transportation and manufacturing abilities exist on Mars, the only way a Martian colony could expand, or even maintain the technology, to eventually become self sustaining is to import parts and finished goods from Earth. Note that we are talking about real technology like computers, enviromental controllers, motors with rare earth parts, etc., but even 20th century technology such as sheet aluminimum, all the alloys of steel, and plastics will take a long time. If it is actually a colony with life time residents and kids, after not too many years the population increases from Martian births and the technology gets older and more prone to failure and the need for supplies to maintain and expand infrastructure increases on the high end tech stuff. Someone has to pay for the acquisition and transport of the parts and goods to Mars. There are two ways to pay that bill: 1. Gifts from Earth, i.e tax money. 2. Profit from Martian exports. Given that maintaining even a small colony will cost billions of dollars, and expanding it planet wide untold trillions of dollars, it is unlikely to be payed for from gifts. There is no resource on Mars that has enough profit in exporting it to Earth to generate those untold trillions of dollars so exports are out also. If someone thinks otherwise, name that good. The model for initial financing by charging the colonists for transport would get things started but as the rate of colony population grows and the number of people wanting to go to Mars decreases you quickly find that that is a Ponzi scheme in the long run. -- Jim Pennino
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| From | Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-13 12:53 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <867tgb908akbg41jta1rbn7prs8a88rt63@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #570196 |
jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>Nothing.
>
>The pre-Columbian Americas had a population estimated by scholars of
>somewhere beteen 50 million and 100 million people.
>
And then they died, so survival is not the dead cinch that the chimp
insists it is.
>
>The technology level of the more advanced civilizations was roughly
>equivelant to the Bronze Age in Europe and iron pre-Columbian arifacts
>have been found indicating they were on the leading edge of the Iron Age.
>
Yes and no. There was ONE culture that developed bronze age
technology but underused it (mostly for decoration, so the color was
more important than the quality of the metallurgy). That gradually
spread, was lost, spread again.
Iron Age? No.
>
>Thses peoples and civilizations existed for thousands of years before
>any European arrived.
>
>Therefore it is obvious that support from Europe is not needed to be able
>to survive and thrive in the Americas.
>
After you've had thousands of years. Again, most inhabitants of the
new world were right at the edge of survival. Jim never explains why
so many cultures and colonies died.
>
>Mars on the other hand requires 21st century technology to survive for
>longer than about 5 seconds, i.e. the time of useful consciousness at
>the pressure on the surface of Mars. The pressure is so low it is below
>the Armstrong limit which means the human body requires a pressure suit,
>not just an oxygen mask.
>
>Comparing colonization on Mars to colonization of the Americas is mostly
>pointless on that fact alone and becomes entirely so when the complete
>lack of available drinking water and food sources is concidered.
>
Yet Jim insists on those comparisons. Then when it doesn't go as he
wants it is suddenly irrelevant.
>
>21st century technology rquires global resources that are spread all over
>the Earth, a global transportation system to bring those resources to
>processing centers to make raw stock and transportation to fabricating
>centers to make finished goods.
>
Jim needs to learn more about just what it takes to survive on Mars.
Air and water aren't that difficult. Jim ignores any evidence that
disagrees with his preconceptions. All it really takes for SURVIVAL
on Mars is power, which is not that hard to bootstrap. Yes, you have
to bring in some 'starter' resources. This shouldn't be any surprise
to anyone, but seems to astound Jim and leave him with the view that
that somehow makes colonization impossible.
>
>It is unlikely that resource distribution is any different on Mars than
>it is on Earth, other than the complete lack of hydrocarbon sources such
>as petroleum. coal, and natural gas.
>
Incorrect. Most Martian minerals are oxides of some sort, which makes
getting oxygen not all that difficult. There is lots of available
water, which makes that simple as well as acting as another potential
source of oxygen.
>
>Until such global transportation and manufacturing abilities exist on
>Mars, the only way a Martian colony could expand, or even maintain
>the technology, to eventually become self sustaining is to import parts
>and finished goods from Earth. Note that we are talking about real
>technology like computers, enviromental controllers, motors with rare
>earth parts, etc., but even 20th century technology such as sheet
>aluminimum, all the alloys of steel, and plastics will take a long
>time.
>
Note that Jim is wrong here. He imposes an unnecessary 'requirement'
and then complains that because it cannot be met that colonization is
impossible.
>
>If it is actually a colony with life time residents and kids, after not
>too many years the population increases from Martian births and the
>technology gets older and more prone to failure and the need for supplies
>to maintain and expand infrastructure increases on the high end tech stuff.
>
Just like every other colony on Earth. Life at the top requires
imports. Life at the bottom, not so much.
>
>Someone has to pay for the acquisition and transport of the parts and
>goods to Mars.
>
>There are two ways to pay that bill:
>
>1. Gifts from Earth, i.e tax money.
>
>2. Profit from Martian exports.
>
Note that English colonies in North America could not 'pay that bill',
either. Also note that Jim is rather unimaginative with regard to how
a Mars civilization could 'make money' and just ignores anything that
doesn't fit his "shipping rocks" mind set for 'products'.
>
>Given that maintaining even a small colony will cost billions of dollars,
>and expanding it planet wide untold trillions of dollars, it is unlikely
>to be payed for from gifts.
>
>There is no resource on Mars that has enough profit in exporting it to
>Earth to generate those untold trillions of dollars so exports are out
>also.
>
>If someone thinks otherwise, name that good.
>
Note that I've already done that for him. He just doesn't like that
there is an answer, so he ignores it.
Most of those 'untold trillions' are largely in 'internal to Mars'
money and thus are unrelated to his 'shipping rocks'. Ask yourself
how the American West was settled.
>
>The model for initial financing by charging the colonists for transport
>would get things started but as the rate of colony population grows
>and the number of people wanting to go to Mars decreases you quickly
>find that that is a Ponzi scheme in the long run.
>
I'll just note that for some reason Jim thinks that Mars colonization
will attract people in exactly the reverse of every other colonization
in the history of the human race. The number of people wanting to
colonize doesn't decrease over time. As a colony grows interest in
colonization by those at home INCREASES. Colonization is easier
because more infrastructure is present and it's just 'easier' to go to
the colony. Costs are lower with time, both in transport and in the
supplies you have to bring.
--
"Some people get lost in thought because it's such unfamiliar
territory."
--G. Behn
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| From | jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-13 20:31 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <9um2uc-67p.ln1@mail.specsol.com> |
| In reply to | #570233 |
In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote: > jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: > >>In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>Nothing. >> >>The pre-Columbian Americas had a population estimated by scholars of >>somewhere beteen 50 million and 100 million people. >> > > And then they died, so survival is not the dead cinch that the chimp > insists it is. 80% to 90% from European diseases, so apparently it was before the Europeans showed up. >> >>The technology level of the more advanced civilizations was roughly >>equivelant to the Bronze Age in Europe and iron pre-Columbian arifacts >>have been found indicating they were on the leading edge of the Iron Age. >> > > Yes and no. There was ONE culture that developed bronze age > technology but underused it (mostly for decoration, so the color was > more important than the quality of the metallurgy). That gradually > spread, was lost, spread again. > > Iron Age? No. Edge of Iron Age, yes. >> >>Thses peoples and civilizations existed for thousands of years before >>any European arrived. >> >>Therefore it is obvious that support from Europe is not needed to be able >>to survive and thrive in the Americas. >> > > After you've had thousands of years. Again, most inhabitants of the > new world were right at the edge of survival. Jim never explains why > so many cultures and colonies died. The time it took to happen is irrelevant, it happened. 0% to 90% of the indiginous people died from European diseases for which they had zero immunity. And as I have said several times before, the Europeans mostly died of stupidity; chasing non-existant gold, disease, not tending to crops, poor site planning, fighting with the indiginous people, fighting with other political entities. >>Mars on the other hand requires 21st century technology to survive for >>longer than about 5 seconds, i.e. the time of useful consciousness at >>the pressure on the surface of Mars. The pressure is so low it is below >>the Armstrong limit which means the human body requires a pressure suit, >>not just an oxygen mask. >> >>Comparing colonization on Mars to colonization of the Americas is mostly >>pointless on that fact alone and becomes entirely so when the complete >>lack of available drinking water and food sources is concidered. >> > > Yet Jim insists on those comparisons. Then when it doesn't go as he > wants it is suddenly irrelevant. Nope, I never insisted on comparing colonization of Mars to colononization of the Americas, that was you. I actually think that comparison is childish, stupdid, and ignorant of reality. >> >>21st century technology rquires global resources that are spread all over >>the Earth, a global transportation system to bring those resources to >>processing centers to make raw stock and transportation to fabricating >>centers to make finished goods. >> > > Jim needs to learn more about just what it takes to survive on Mars. > Air and water aren't that difficult. Jim ignores any evidence that > disagrees with his preconceptions. All it really takes for SURVIVAL > on Mars is power, which is not that hard to bootstrap. Yes, you have > to bring in some 'starter' resources. This shouldn't be any surprise > to anyone, but seems to astound Jim and leave him with the view that > that somehow makes colonization impossible. Power gives you some air and water, but it is not a magic bullet if talking about a large, growing colony as opposed to a research station with limited needs. For example, it has been said there is frozen water below the Martian surface so all that needs to be done is dig it up and melt it. That is all well and good until you have dug up all the ice in the area, which unlike a flowing river, does not replenish itself quickly. >>It is unlikely that resource distribution is any different on Mars than >>it is on Earth, other than the complete lack of hydrocarbon sources such >>as petroleum. coal, and natural gas. >> > > Incorrect. Most Martian minerals are oxides of some sort, which makes > getting oxygen not all that difficult. There is lots of available > water, which makes that simple as well as acting as another potential > source of oxygen. The point was those resources, just like the Earth, are most likely spread all over the planet and not all in one nice neat place. The resources needed to support 21st century technology consists of most all of the first 98 elements of the periodic table. >> >>Until such global transportation and manufacturing abilities exist on >>Mars, the only way a Martian colony could expand, or even maintain >>the technology, to eventually become self sustaining is to import parts >>and finished goods from Earth. Note that we are talking about real >>technology like computers, enviromental controllers, motors with rare >>earth parts, etc., but even 20th century technology such as sheet >>aluminimum, all the alloys of steel, and plastics will take a long >>time. >> > > Note that Jim is wrong here. He imposes an unnecessary 'requirement' > and then complains that because it cannot be met that colonization is > impossible. See above and the number of elements needed to support 21st century technology. >>If it is actually a colony with life time residents and kids, after not >>too many years the population increases from Martian births and the >>technology gets older and more prone to failure and the need for supplies >>to maintain and expand infrastructure increases on the high end tech stuff. >> > > Just like every other colony on Earth. Life at the top requires > imports. Life at the bottom, not so much. An expanding colony requires expanding resources and repair parts that can not be supplied locally until you have a global colony as described above. >>Someone has to pay for the acquisition and transport of the parts and >>goods to Mars. >> >>There are two ways to pay that bill: >> >>1. Gifts from Earth, i.e tax money. >> >>2. Profit from Martian exports. >> > > Note that English colonies in North America could not 'pay that bill', > either. Also note that Jim is rather unimaginative with regard to how > a Mars civilization could 'make money' and just ignores anything that > doesn't fit his "shipping rocks" mind set for 'products'. Note that the requirements to survive in a 16th century world are entirely different than the requirements to survive on Mars. And no matter how you try to evade it, someone has to pay for it. >>Given that maintaining even a small colony will cost billions of dollars, >>and expanding it planet wide untold trillions of dollars, it is unlikely >>to be payed for from gifts. >> >>There is no resource on Mars that has enough profit in exporting it to >>Earth to generate those untold trillions of dollars so exports are out >>also. >> >>If someone thinks otherwise, name that good. >> > > Note that I've already done that for him. He just doesn't like that > there is an answer, so he ignores it. Nope, you arm waved about telecommunications and software. > Most of those 'untold trillions' are largely in 'internal to Mars' > money and thus are unrelated to his 'shipping rocks'. Ask yourself > how the American West was settled. Nope, again we are talking about the trillions in stuff that has to be acquired on Earth and shipped to Mars to maintain and expand the colooy. The American West was settled by farmers in horse drawn wagons with hand tools and sacks of seed, which is hardly relevant to Mars. >>The model for initial financing by charging the colonists for transport >>would get things started but as the rate of colony population grows >>and the number of people wanting to go to Mars decreases you quickly >>find that that is a Ponzi scheme in the long run. >> > > I'll just note that for some reason Jim thinks that Mars colonization > will attract people in exactly the reverse of every other colonization > in the history of the human race. The number of people wanting to > colonize doesn't decrease over time. As a colony grows interest in > colonization by those at home INCREASES. Colonization is easier > because more infrastructure is present and it's just 'easier' to go to > the colony. Costs are lower with time, both in transport and in the > supplies you have to bring. So where do sign up so I can take my horse drawn wagon accross the Martian plains and settle in a nice spot near a stream, build a log cabin and plant my crops? -- Jim Pennino
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-13 18:54 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <dostgbll5r8cka4p9etq4b1nr8q1d18vku@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #570267 |
jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote:
>> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>>
>>>In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>Nothing.
>>>
>>>The pre-Columbian Americas had a population estimated by scholars of
>>>somewhere beteen 50 million and 100 million people.
>>>
>>
>> And then they died, so survival is not the dead cinch that the chimp
>> insists it is.
>
>80% to 90% from European diseases, so apparently it was before the
>Europeans showed up.
>
Most of that postulated number died before they ever met a European.
>>>
>>>The technology level of the more advanced civilizations was roughly
>>>equivelant to the Bronze Age in Europe and iron pre-Columbian arifacts
>>>have been found indicating they were on the leading edge of the Iron Age.
>>>
>>
>> Yes and no. There was ONE culture that developed bronze age
>> technology but underused it (mostly for decoration, so the color was
>> more important than the quality of the metallurgy). That gradually
>> spread, was lost, spread again.
>>
>> Iron Age? No.
>
>Edge of Iron Age, yes.
>
No, being bronze age with limited tool use is not "edge of Iron Age".
>
>>>
>>>Thses peoples and civilizations existed for thousands of years before
>>>any European arrived.
>>>
>>>Therefore it is obvious that support from Europe is not needed to be able
>>>to survive and thrive in the Americas.
>>>
>>
>> After you've had thousands of years. Again, most inhabitants of the
>> new world were right at the edge of survival. Jim never explains why
>> so many cultures and colonies died.
>
>The time it took to happen is irrelevant, it happened.
>
The time it took to happen is very relevant. Give a Mars colony the
same amount of time...
>
>0% to 90% of the indiginous people died from European diseases for which
>they had zero immunity.
>
So survival wasn't so easy after all.
>
>And as I have said several times before, the Europeans mostly died of
>stupidity; chasing non-existant gold, disease, not tending to crops,
>poor site planning, fighting with the indiginous people, fighting
>with other political entities.
>
You can repeat incorrect things as frequently as you like. Repetition
doesn't make them correct.
>>>Mars on the other hand requires 21st century technology to survive for
>>>longer than about 5 seconds, i.e. the time of useful consciousness at
>>>the pressure on the surface of Mars. The pressure is so low it is below
>>>the Armstrong limit which means the human body requires a pressure suit,
>>>not just an oxygen mask.
>>>
>>>Comparing colonization on Mars to colonization of the Americas is mostly
>>>pointless on that fact alone and becomes entirely so when the complete
>>>lack of available drinking water and food sources is concidered.
>>>
>>
>> Yet Jim insists on those comparisons. Then when it doesn't go as he
>> wants it is suddenly irrelevant.
>
>Nope, I never insisted on comparing colonization of Mars to colononization
>of the Americas, that was you.
>
Liar. You're the one constantly nattering on about how you can "drop
people naked in colonies on Earth and they survive".
>
>I actually think that comparison is childish, stupdid, and ignorant
>of reality.
>
Then why do you keep bringing it up?
>>>
>>>21st century technology rquires global resources that are spread all over
>>>the Earth, a global transportation system to bring those resources to
>>>processing centers to make raw stock and transportation to fabricating
>>>centers to make finished goods.
>>>
>>
>> Jim needs to learn more about just what it takes to survive on Mars.
>> Air and water aren't that difficult. Jim ignores any evidence that
>> disagrees with his preconceptions. All it really takes for SURVIVAL
>> on Mars is power, which is not that hard to bootstrap. Yes, you have
>> to bring in some 'starter' resources. This shouldn't be any surprise
>> to anyone, but seems to astound Jim and leave him with the view that
>> that somehow makes colonization impossible.
>
>Power gives you some air and water, but it is not a magic bullet if
>talking about a large, growing colony as opposed to a research station
>with limited needs.
>
And we're from 'survival' to "living in a rich suburb" as your
criterion for 'colony'.
>
>For example, it has been said there is frozen water below the Martian
>surface so all that needs to be done is dig it up and melt it.
>
"It has been said" because we've touched it. So you can replace your
"it has been said" with "there is".
>
>That is all well and good until you have dug up all the ice in the
>area, which unlike a flowing river, does not replenish itself quickly.
>
Apparently there is free flowing water on Mars periodically, so it
would seem you might be mistaken in this assertion. Even if it moves
as poorly as possible, I'm left with a big 'so what?' as my response.
Ever hear of these things called 'pipes'?
>>>It is unlikely that resource distribution is any different on Mars than
>>>it is on Earth, other than the complete lack of hydrocarbon sources such
>>>as petroleum. coal, and natural gas.
>>>
>>
>> Incorrect. Most Martian minerals are oxides of some sort, which makes
>> getting oxygen not all that difficult. There is lots of available
>> water, which makes that simple as well as acting as another potential
>> source of oxygen.
>
>The point was those resources, just like the Earth, are most likely
>spread all over the planet and not all in one nice neat place.
>
That's why you pick your spot(s) instead of just plopping your ass
down in Joe Random Crater. The oxides are pretty much everywhere.
Ditto power. So you locate near a lot of water.
>
>The resources needed to support 21st century technology consists of
>most all of the first 98 elements of the periodic table.
>
Both false and irrelevant. Irrelevant because you have now not
talking about 'self-sufficient' survival anymore, but totally import
free. By that measure, there aren't any successful colonies in North
America yet; they're still importing.
>>>
>>>Until such global transportation and manufacturing abilities exist on
>>>Mars, the only way a Martian colony could expand, or even maintain
>>>the technology, to eventually become self sustaining is to import parts
>>>and finished goods from Earth. Note that we are talking about real
>>>technology like computers, enviromental controllers, motors with rare
>>>earth parts, etc., but even 20th century technology such as sheet
>>>aluminimum, all the alloys of steel, and plastics will take a long
>>>time.
>>>
>>
>> Note that Jim is wrong here. He imposes an unnecessary 'requirement'
>> and then complains that because it cannot be met that colonization is
>> impossible.
>
>See above and the number of elements needed to support 21st century
>technology.
>
See above and that you're on your ass.
>>>If it is actually a colony with life time residents and kids, after not
>>>too many years the population increases from Martian births and the
>>>technology gets older and more prone to failure and the need for supplies
>>>to maintain and expand infrastructure increases on the high end tech stuff.
>>>
>>
>> Just like every other colony on Earth. Life at the top requires
>> imports. Life at the bottom, not so much.
>
>An expanding colony requires expanding resources and repair parts that
>can not be supplied locally until you have a global colony as described
>above.
>
Poppycock! That's only true if your definition of 'colony' is now
"rich suburb in Connecticut".
>>>Someone has to pay for the acquisition and transport of the parts and
>>>goods to Mars.
>>>
>>>There are two ways to pay that bill:
>>>
>>>1. Gifts from Earth, i.e tax money.
>>>
>>>2. Profit from Martian exports.
>>>
>>
>> Note that English colonies in North America could not 'pay that bill',
>> either. Also note that Jim is rather unimaginative with regard to how
>> a Mars civilization could 'make money' and just ignores anything that
>> doesn't fit his "shipping rocks" mind set for 'products'.
>
>Note that the requirements to survive in a 16th century world
>are entirely different than the requirements to survive on Mars.
>
Note that 'high tech imports required' is 'high tech imports
required', whether one is talking 'high tech' in the 16th century or
high tech in the 21st century. That's why we're just getting around
to Mars. DOH!
>
>And no matter how you try to evade it, someone has to pay for it.
>
And no matter how you try to deny it, lots of models to do that have
been offered.
>>>Given that maintaining even a small colony will cost billions of dollars,
>>>and expanding it planet wide untold trillions of dollars, it is unlikely
>>>to be payed for from gifts.
>>>
>>>There is no resource on Mars that has enough profit in exporting it to
>>>Earth to generate those untold trillions of dollars so exports are out
>>>also.
>>>
>>>If someone thinks otherwise, name that good.
>>>
>>
>> Note that I've already done that for him. He just doesn't like that
>> there is an answer, so he ignores it.
>
>Nope, you arm waved about telecommunications and software.
>
So you insist on something at the level of predicting Microsoft and
Apple in 1940? Now you're just being silly.
>> Most of those 'untold trillions' are largely in 'internal to Mars'
>> money and thus are unrelated to his 'shipping rocks'. Ask yourself
>> how the American West was settled.
>
>Nope, again we are talking about the trillions in stuff that has to be
>acquired on Earth and shipped to Mars to maintain and expand the colooy.
>
Yep, largely 'internal Mars' money.
>
>The American West was settled by farmers in horse drawn wagons with
>hand tools and sacks of seed, which is hardly relevant to Mars.
>
Do you not know shit about the settlement of the American West,
either? Go read up on covered wagons.
>>>The model for initial financing by charging the colonists for transport
>>>would get things started but as the rate of colony population grows
>>>and the number of people wanting to go to Mars decreases you quickly
>>>find that that is a Ponzi scheme in the long run.
>>>
>>
>> I'll just note that for some reason Jim thinks that Mars colonization
>> will attract people in exactly the reverse of every other colonization
>> in the history of the human race. The number of people wanting to
>> colonize doesn't decrease over time. As a colony grows interest in
>> colonization by those at home INCREASES. Colonization is easier
>> because more infrastructure is present and it's just 'easier' to go to
>> the colony. Costs are lower with time, both in transport and in the
>> supplies you have to bring.
>
>So where do sign up so I can take my horse drawn wagon accross the
>Martian plains and settle in a nice spot near a stream, build a log
>cabin and plant my crops?
>
I think it would be more useful to you to suggest a place where you
can take your head and your ass and get them separated from each
other.
--
"You take the lies out of him, and he'll shrink to the size of
your hat; you take the malice out of him, and he'll disappear."
-- Mark Twain
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| From | jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-14 03:22 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <tve3uc-vkr.ln1@mail.specsol.com> |
| In reply to | #570316 |
In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote: > jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: > >>In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote: >>> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: >>> >>>>In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>Nothing. >>>> >>>>The pre-Columbian Americas had a population estimated by scholars of >>>>somewhere beteen 50 million and 100 million people. >>>> >>> >>> And then they died, so survival is not the dead cinch that the chimp >>> insists it is. >> >>80% to 90% from European diseases, so apparently it was before the >>Europeans showed up. >> > > Most of that postulated number died before they ever met a European. Nope. https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/2sx6h9/whats_the_current_scholarly_consensus_of/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_history_of_indigenous_peoples_of_the_Americas http://www2.nau.edu/~alcoze/for398/class/pristinemyth.html > >>>> >>>>The technology level of the more advanced civilizations was roughly >>>>equivelant to the Bronze Age in Europe and iron pre-Columbian arifacts >>>>have been found indicating they were on the leading edge of the Iron Age. >>>> >>> >>> Yes and no. There was ONE culture that developed bronze age >>> technology but underused it (mostly for decoration, so the color was >>> more important than the quality of the metallurgy). That gradually >>> spread, was lost, spread again. >>> >>> Iron Age? No. >> >>Edge of Iron Age, yes. >> > > No, being bronze age with limited tool use is not "edge of Iron Age". But using iron tools is. >>>> >>>>Thses peoples and civilizations existed for thousands of years before >>>>any European arrived. >>>> >>>>Therefore it is obvious that support from Europe is not needed to be able >>>>to survive and thrive in the Americas. >>>> >>> >>> After you've had thousands of years. Again, most inhabitants of the >>> new world were right at the edge of survival. Jim never explains why >>> so many cultures and colonies died. >> >>The time it took to happen is irrelevant, it happened. >> > > The time it took to happen is very relevant. Give a Mars colony the > same amount of time... Nope; the time it took inidiginous peoples in the Americas to get to bronze age technology has nothing to do with anything on Mars. >>0% to 90% of the indiginous people died from European diseases for which >>they had zero immunity. >> > > So survival wasn't so easy after all. Sure it was until disease carrying Europeans showed up. 50 million to 100 million people and growing. None of which has anything to do with Mars. >> >>And as I have said several times before, the Europeans mostly died of >>stupidity; chasing non-existant gold, disease, not tending to crops, >>poor site planning, fighting with the indiginous people, fighting >>with other political entities. >> > > You can repeat incorrect things as frequently as you like. Repetition > doesn't make them correct. You can deny the truth as frequently as you like. Repetition doesn't make it so. >>>>Mars on the other hand requires 21st century technology to survive for >>>>longer than about 5 seconds, i.e. the time of useful consciousness at >>>>the pressure on the surface of Mars. The pressure is so low it is below >>>>the Armstrong limit which means the human body requires a pressure suit, >>>>not just an oxygen mask. >>>> >>>>Comparing colonization on Mars to colonization of the Americas is mostly >>>>pointless on that fact alone and becomes entirely so when the complete >>>>lack of available drinking water and food sources is concidered. >>>> >>> >>> Yet Jim insists on those comparisons. Then when it doesn't go as he >>> wants it is suddenly irrelevant. >> >>Nope, I never insisted on comparing colonization of Mars to colononization >>of the Americas, that was you. >> > > Liar. You're the one constantly nattering on about how you can "drop > people naked in colonies on Earth and they survive". Yes, Earth. Earth with air, food, and water. If survival on Earth is so difficult, how did cave man survive? >> >>I actually think that comparison is childish, stupdid, and ignorant >>of reality. >> > > Then why do you keep bringing it up? See above. Hint: Earth with food, air and water. >>>> >>>>21st century technology rquires global resources that are spread all over >>>>the Earth, a global transportation system to bring those resources to >>>>processing centers to make raw stock and transportation to fabricating >>>>centers to make finished goods. >>>> >>> >>> Jim needs to learn more about just what it takes to survive on Mars. >>> Air and water aren't that difficult. Jim ignores any evidence that >>> disagrees with his preconceptions. All it really takes for SURVIVAL >>> on Mars is power, which is not that hard to bootstrap. Yes, you have >>> to bring in some 'starter' resources. This shouldn't be any surprise >>> to anyone, but seems to astound Jim and leave him with the view that >>> that somehow makes colonization impossible. >> >>Power gives you some air and water, but it is not a magic bullet if >>talking about a large, growing colony as opposed to a research station >>with limited needs. >> > > And we're from 'survival' to "living in a rich suburb" as your > criterion for 'colony'. I never said anything about a rich suburb, those are your words. I have ALWAYS been talking about basic survival. >>For example, it has been said there is frozen water below the Martian >>surface so all that needs to be done is dig it up and melt it. >> > > "It has been said" because we've touched it. So you can replace your > "it has been said" with "there is". Fine, there is ice buried on Mars. >> >>That is all well and good until you have dug up all the ice in the >>area, which unlike a flowing river, does not replenish itself quickly. >> > > Apparently there is free flowing water on Mars periodically, so it > would seem you might be mistaken in this assertion. Even if it moves > as poorly as possible, I'm left with a big 'so what?' as my response. > Ever hear of these things called 'pipes'? Yep, and they work just fine with liquid water and not pipes. There are definitely no rivers or creeks on Mars. Unless the ice replenishes itself faster than you use it, you have to go somewhere else for more ice. That kind of works against having a large colony buried in the ground. >>>>It is unlikely that resource distribution is any different on Mars than >>>>it is on Earth, other than the complete lack of hydrocarbon sources such >>>>as petroleum. coal, and natural gas. >>>> >>> >>> Incorrect. Most Martian minerals are oxides of some sort, which makes >>> getting oxygen not all that difficult. There is lots of available >>> water, which makes that simple as well as acting as another potential >>> source of oxygen. >> >>The point was those resources, just like the Earth, are most likely >>spread all over the planet and not all in one nice neat place. >> > > That's why you pick your spot(s) instead of just plopping your ass > down in Joe Random Crater. The oxides are pretty much everywhere. > Ditto power. So you locate near a lot of water. Yes, I'm sure all 98 elements are pretty much everywhere. It is not that was on Earth and highly unlikely to be on Mars. >>The resources needed to support 21st century technology consists of >>most all of the first 98 elements of the periodic table. >> > > Both false and irrelevant. Irrelevant because you have now not > talking about 'self-sufficient' survival anymore, but totally import > free. By that measure, there aren't any successful colonies in North > America yet; they're still importing. Self sufficient survival means not being dependent on imports to survive. And guess what, 21st century technology couldn't exist on Earth without imports either, just that we don't have to import it from somewhere off the planet nor do we absolutely need it to survive. >>>> >>>>Until such global transportation and manufacturing abilities exist on >>>>Mars, the only way a Martian colony could expand, or even maintain >>>>the technology, to eventually become self sustaining is to import parts >>>>and finished goods from Earth. Note that we are talking about real >>>>technology like computers, enviromental controllers, motors with rare >>>>earth parts, etc., but even 20th century technology such as sheet >>>>aluminimum, all the alloys of steel, and plastics will take a long >>>>time. >>>> >>> >>> Note that Jim is wrong here. He imposes an unnecessary 'requirement' >>> and then complains that because it cannot be met that colonization is >>> impossible. >> >>See above and the number of elements needed to support 21st century >>technology. >> > > See above and that you're on your ass. No matter how many times you deny the truth, it is still the truth. Make a list on uneeded elements if you are so sure. >>>>If it is actually a colony with life time residents and kids, after not >>>>too many years the population increases from Martian births and the >>>>technology gets older and more prone to failure and the need for supplies >>>>to maintain and expand infrastructure increases on the high end tech stuff. >>>> >>> >>> Just like every other colony on Earth. Life at the top requires >>> imports. Life at the bottom, not so much. >> >>An expanding colony requires expanding resources and repair parts that >>can not be supplied locally until you have a global colony as described >>above. >> > > Poppycock! That's only true if your definition of 'colony' is now > "rich suburb in Connecticut". So if there are more people they don't need more equipment and old equipment does not wear out and break? >>>>Someone has to pay for the acquisition and transport of the parts and >>>>goods to Mars. >>>> >>>>There are two ways to pay that bill: >>>> >>>>1. Gifts from Earth, i.e tax money. >>>> >>>>2. Profit from Martian exports. >>>> >>> >>> Note that English colonies in North America could not 'pay that bill', >>> either. Also note that Jim is rather unimaginative with regard to how >>> a Mars civilization could 'make money' and just ignores anything that >>> doesn't fit his "shipping rocks" mind set for 'products'. >> >>Note that the requirements to survive in a 16th century world >>are entirely different than the requirements to survive on Mars. >> > > Note that 'high tech imports required' is 'high tech imports > required', whether one is talking 'high tech' in the 16th century or > high tech in the 21st century. That's why we're just getting around > to Mars. DOH! Note that you are evading the issue that someone has to pay for stuff. >> >>And no matter how you try to evade it, someone has to pay for it. >> > > And no matter how you try to deny it, lots of models to do that have > been offered. And you have still offered nothing more than some rediculous arm waving about telecommunications and maybe programming from Mars. >>>>Given that maintaining even a small colony will cost billions of dollars, >>>>and expanding it planet wide untold trillions of dollars, it is unlikely >>>>to be payed for from gifts. >>>> >>>>There is no resource on Mars that has enough profit in exporting it to >>>>Earth to generate those untold trillions of dollars so exports are out >>>>also. >>>> >>>>If someone thinks otherwise, name that good. >>>> >>> >>> Note that I've already done that for him. He just doesn't like that >>> there is an answer, so he ignores it. >> >>Nope, you arm waved about telecommunications and software. >> > > So you insist on something at the level of predicting Microsoft and > Apple in 1940? Now you're just being silly. Nope, something worth importing from Mars in the near decades. >>> Most of those 'untold trillions' are largely in 'internal to Mars' >>> money and thus are unrelated to his 'shipping rocks'. Ask yourself >>> how the American West was settled. >> >>Nope, again we are talking about the trillions in stuff that has to be >>acquired on Earth and shipped to Mars to maintain and expand the colooy. >> > > Yep, largely 'internal Mars' money. Nope, has to be spent on Earth for acquistion on Earth and shipping from Earth. >> >>The American West was settled by farmers in horse drawn wagons with >>hand tools and sacks of seed, which is hardly relevant to Mars. >> > > Do you not know shit about the settlement of the American West, > either? Go read up on covered wagons. Yes, and the American West is pretty irelevant to Mars. Establish a new family on Earth: Load the horse drawn wagon the the wife, kids, hand tools, initial provisions for the trip, some caged chickens and a sack of seeds. Find a nice spot near lumber and water sources. Plant seeds, cut timber to build cabin,d dig a well so as to not have to walk as far to get water, build a chicken coop, dig a hole and build an outhouse. If you forgot to bring a plow, make a wooden one. While waiting for the first crop, forage for wild vegetables, fish, and hunt game and eat some of the eggs from the chickens. If you see any Indians, don't piss them off; try to make friends. Establish a new community on Earth: Do several of the above and include some trademen like blacksmiths, carpenters, and wheelwrights to form the town. Establsh a new family on Mars: Haul in a huge pile of technology, materials, tools, food, oxygen and water and repair parts by some means. Put up a radiation sheilded structure or bury a non-shielded staructure. Install pressurization system with oxygen tanks and CO2 scrubbers. Install water tanks and plumbing system with toilets and refuse system. Install heating system. Install water recyling system and refuse to fertilizer system. Install power system to run it all. Set up system to generate oxygen from rocks and pipe it into the structue. Set up system to mine ice, melt it, purify it, and pipe it into the structure tanks. Set up pressurized environment to grow food and connect to the power, water, and oxygen system. Plant seeds. While waiting for the first crop, eat the tons of provisions you brought with you. Prey nothing breaks and if it does that you have a repair part. Establish a new community on Mars: Do above N number of times. -- Jim Pennino
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| From | Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-13 21:39 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <fl5ugb1qsv445j6sqklkerca8e8krp5e5v@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #570327 |
jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote:
>> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>>
>>>In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>Nothing.
>>>>>
>>>>>The pre-Columbian Americas had a population estimated by scholars of
>>>>>somewhere beteen 50 million and 100 million people.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> And then they died, so survival is not the dead cinch that the chimp
>>>> insists it is.
>>>
>>>80% to 90% from European diseases, so apparently it was before the
>>>Europeans showed up.
>>>
>>
>> Most of that postulated number died before they ever met a European.
>
>Nope.
>
Yep. Europeans never saw anywhere near that number of indigenes.
>
>https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/2sx6h9/whats_the_current_scholarly_consensus_of/
>
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_history_of_indigenous_peoples_of_the_Americas
>
>http://www2.nau.edu/~alcoze/for398/class/pristinemyth.html
>
Note that none of those say anything at all with regard to all the
folks who died having MET Europeans. Europeans are frequently
postulated as the source of disease that led to the die off, but even
that isn't proven. As Europeans explored the Americas they were
amazed at the scarcity of population. Most of those who died did so
without ever having seen a European.
>
>>
>>>>>
>>>>>The technology level of the more advanced civilizations was roughly
>>>>>equivelant to the Bronze Age in Europe and iron pre-Columbian arifacts
>>>>>have been found indicating they were on the leading edge of the Iron Age.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yes and no. There was ONE culture that developed bronze age
>>>> technology but underused it (mostly for decoration, so the color was
>>>> more important than the quality of the metallurgy). That gradually
>>>> spread, was lost, spread again.
>>>>
>>>> Iron Age? No.
>>>
>>>Edge of Iron Age, yes.
>>>
>>
>> No, being bronze age with limited tool use is not "edge of Iron Age".
>>
>
>But using iron tools is.
>
Cite your evidence for people using iron tools. The only iron tools
I'm aware of being found in the Americas were some up in the Northwest
part of North America and they are believed to have come from Asia.
They barely used bronze tools, viewing bronze as decorative. Most
tools were copper, stone, bone, or wood.
>>>>>
>>>>>Thses peoples and civilizations existed for thousands of years before
>>>>>any European arrived.
>>>>>
>>>>>Therefore it is obvious that support from Europe is not needed to be able
>>>>>to survive and thrive in the Americas.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> After you've had thousands of years. Again, most inhabitants of the
>>>> new world were right at the edge of survival. Jim never explains why
>>>> so many cultures and colonies died.
>>>
>>>The time it took to happen is irrelevant, it happened.
>>>
>>
>> The time it took to happen is very relevant. Give a Mars colony the
>> same amount of time...
>
>Nope; the time it took inidiginous peoples in the Americas to get to
>bronze age technology has nothing to do with anything on Mars.
>
You keep asserting that the presence of these people and their level
of development are clear demonstrations that you could drop people
here 'naked and unafraid' and they would survive. Now that the flaws
in your 'logic' are pointed out, it's suddenly got "nothing to do with
anything on Mars".
Typical chimp.
>
>>>0% to 90% of the indiginous people died from European diseases for which
>>>they had zero immunity.
>>>
>>
>> So survival wasn't so easy after all.
>
>Sure it was until disease carrying Europeans showed up.
>
>50 million to 100 million people and growing.
>
And no proof of what killed them.
>
>None of which has anything to do with Mars.
>
Then why do you keep bringing it up?
>>>
>>>And as I have said several times before, the Europeans mostly died of
>>>stupidity; chasing non-existant gold, disease, not tending to crops,
>>>poor site planning, fighting with the indiginous people, fighting
>>>with other political entities.
>>>
>>
>> You can repeat incorrect things as frequently as you like. Repetition
>> doesn't make them correct.
>
>You can deny the truth as frequently as you like. Repetition doesn't make
>it so.
>
You can repeat incorrect things as frequently as you like. Repetition
doesn't make them correct.
>>>>>Mars on the other hand requires 21st century technology to survive for
>>>>>longer than about 5 seconds, i.e. the time of useful consciousness at
>>>>>the pressure on the surface of Mars. The pressure is so low it is below
>>>>>the Armstrong limit which means the human body requires a pressure suit,
>>>>>not just an oxygen mask.
>>>>>
>>>>>Comparing colonization on Mars to colonization of the Americas is mostly
>>>>>pointless on that fact alone and becomes entirely so when the complete
>>>>>lack of available drinking water and food sources is concidered.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yet Jim insists on those comparisons. Then when it doesn't go as he
>>>> wants it is suddenly irrelevant.
>>>
>>>Nope, I never insisted on comparing colonization of Mars to colononization
>>>of the Americas, that was you.
>>>
>>
>> Liar. You're the one constantly nattering on about how you can "drop
>> people naked in colonies on Earth and they survive".
>>
>
>Yes, Earth. Earth with air, food, and water.
>
>If survival on Earth is so difficult, how did cave man survive?
>
But you insist that's all irrelevant anyway. Cave men largely did not
survive. "Nasty, brutish, and short" is your measuring stick there.
Why did all those subfamilies of hominid die out if survival is so
easy?
>>>
>>>I actually think that comparison is childish, stupdid, and ignorant
>>>of reality.
>>>
>>
>> Then why do you keep bringing it up?
>
>See above.
>
>Hint: Earth with food, air and water.
>
Hint: Mars can easily have those, too.
>>>>>
>>>>>21st century technology rquires global resources that are spread all over
>>>>>the Earth, a global transportation system to bring those resources to
>>>>>processing centers to make raw stock and transportation to fabricating
>>>>>centers to make finished goods.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Jim needs to learn more about just what it takes to survive on Mars.
>>>> Air and water aren't that difficult. Jim ignores any evidence that
>>>> disagrees with his preconceptions. All it really takes for SURVIVAL
>>>> on Mars is power, which is not that hard to bootstrap. Yes, you have
>>>> to bring in some 'starter' resources. This shouldn't be any surprise
>>>> to anyone, but seems to astound Jim and leave him with the view that
>>>> that somehow makes colonization impossible.
>>>
>>>Power gives you some air and water, but it is not a magic bullet if
>>>talking about a large, growing colony as opposed to a research station
>>>with limited needs.
>>>
>>
>> And we're from 'survival' to "living in a rich suburb" as your
>> criterion for 'colony'.
>
>I never said anything about a rich suburb, those are your words.
>
But every time you want to obstruct you insist that all of modern
technology must exist on Mars to satisfy your definition of 'colony'
and 'survival'.
>
>I have ALWAYS been talking about basic survival.
>
Then your claims about what is needed are unadulterated bullshit.
>>>For example, it has been said there is frozen water below the Martian
>>>surface so all that needs to be done is dig it up and melt it.
>>>
>>
>> "It has been said" because we've touched it. So you can replace your
>> "it has been said" with "there is".
>
>Fine, there is ice buried on Mars.
>
And not very deeply, either.
>>>
>>>That is all well and good until you have dug up all the ice in the
>>>area, which unlike a flowing river, does not replenish itself quickly.
>>>
>>
>> Apparently there is free flowing water on Mars periodically, so it
>> would seem you might be mistaken in this assertion. Even if it moves
>> as poorly as possible, I'm left with a big 'so what?' as my response.
>> Ever hear of these things called 'pipes'?
>
>Yep, and they work just fine with liquid water and not pipes.
>
>There are definitely no rivers or creeks on Mars.
>
>Unless the ice replenishes itself faster than you use it, you have to
>go somewhere else for more ice.
>
>That kind of works against having a large colony buried in the ground.
>
That rather depends on how much ice there is. Every indication is
that there's lots.
http://astronomynow.com/2015/04/08/mars-has-belts-of-glaciers-composed-of-water-ice/
>>>>>It is unlikely that resource distribution is any different on Mars than
>>>>>it is on Earth, other than the complete lack of hydrocarbon sources such
>>>>>as petroleum. coal, and natural gas.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Incorrect. Most Martian minerals are oxides of some sort, which makes
>>>> getting oxygen not all that difficult. There is lots of available
>>>> water, which makes that simple as well as acting as another potential
>>>> source of oxygen.
>>>
>>>The point was those resources, just like the Earth, are most likely
>>>spread all over the planet and not all in one nice neat place.
>>>
>>
>> That's why you pick your spot(s) instead of just plopping your ass
>> down in Joe Random Crater. The oxides are pretty much everywhere.
>> Ditto power. So you locate near a lot of water.
>
>Yes, I'm sure all 98 elements are pretty much everywhere.
>
Irrelevant in any case, since they're not needed.
>
>It is not that was on Earth and highly unlikely to be on Mars.
>
Uh, what?
>>>The resources needed to support 21st century technology consists of
>>>most all of the first 98 elements of the periodic table.
>>>
>>
>> Both false and irrelevant. Irrelevant because you have now not
>> talking about 'self-sufficient' survival anymore, but totally import
>> free. By that measure, there aren't any successful colonies in North
>> America yet; they're still importing.
>
>Self sufficient survival means not being dependent on imports to survive.
>
And that's not that hard, even on Mars. Yeah, you need imports to
bootstrap from. So what?
>
>And guess what, 21st century technology couldn't exist on Earth without
>imports either, just that we don't have to import it from somewhere off
>the planet nor do we absolutely need it to survive.
>
So all your caterwauling about needing all that 21st century
technology in order to survive on Mars is just bullshit, then.
>>>>>
>>>>>Until such global transportation and manufacturing abilities exist on
>>>>>Mars, the only way a Martian colony could expand, or even maintain
>>>>>the technology, to eventually become self sustaining is to import parts
>>>>>and finished goods from Earth. Note that we are talking about real
>>>>>technology like computers, enviromental controllers, motors with rare
>>>>>earth parts, etc., but even 20th century technology such as sheet
>>>>>aluminimum, all the alloys of steel, and plastics will take a long
>>>>>time.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Note that Jim is wrong here. He imposes an unnecessary 'requirement'
>>>> and then complains that because it cannot be met that colonization is
>>>> impossible.
>>>
>>>See above and the number of elements needed to support 21st century
>>>technology.
>>>
>>
>> See above and that you're on your ass.
>>
>
>No matter how many times you deny the truth, it is still the truth.
>
If you'll stop changing your definitions.
>
>Make a list on uneeded elements if you are so sure.
>
For SURVIVAL? You don't need most of them.
>>>>>If it is actually a colony with life time residents and kids, after not
>>>>>too many years the population increases from Martian births and the
>>>>>technology gets older and more prone to failure and the need for supplies
>>>>>to maintain and expand infrastructure increases on the high end tech stuff.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Just like every other colony on Earth. Life at the top requires
>>>> imports. Life at the bottom, not so much.
>>>
>>>An expanding colony requires expanding resources and repair parts that
>>>can not be supplied locally until you have a global colony as described
>>>above.
>>>
>>
>> Poppycock! That's only true if your definition of 'colony' is now
>> "rich suburb in Connecticut".
>
>So if there are more people they don't need more equipment and old
>equipment does not wear out and break?
>
For SURVIVAL? That equipment becomes manufactured from in situ
resources. For a rich suburb in Connecticut, yeah, you'd have a
problem.
>>>>>Someone has to pay for the acquisition and transport of the parts and
>>>>>goods to Mars.
>>>>>
>>>>>There are two ways to pay that bill:
>>>>>
>>>>>1. Gifts from Earth, i.e tax money.
>>>>>
>>>>>2. Profit from Martian exports.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Note that English colonies in North America could not 'pay that bill',
>>>> either. Also note that Jim is rather unimaginative with regard to how
>>>> a Mars civilization could 'make money' and just ignores anything that
>>>> doesn't fit his "shipping rocks" mind set for 'products'.
>>>
>>>Note that the requirements to survive in a 16th century world
>>>are entirely different than the requirements to survive on Mars.
>>>
>>
>> Note that 'high tech imports required' is 'high tech imports
>> required', whether one is talking 'high tech' in the 16th century or
>> high tech in the 21st century. That's why we're just getting around
>> to Mars. DOH!
>>
>
>Note that you are evading the issue that someone has to pay for stuff.
>
Note that you're once again lying with your old whinge of someone
"avoiding the issue".
>>>
>>>And no matter how you try to evade it, someone has to pay for it.
>>>
>>
>> And no matter how you try to deny it, lots of models to do that have
>> been offered.
>
>And you have still offered nothing more than some rediculous arm waving
>about telecommunications and maybe programming from Mars.
>
And you still have shown yourself unable to think outside the confines
of your own duodenum.
>>>>>Given that maintaining even a small colony will cost billions of dollars,
>>>>>and expanding it planet wide untold trillions of dollars, it is unlikely
>>>>>to be payed for from gifts.
>>>>>
>>>>>There is no resource on Mars that has enough profit in exporting it to
>>>>>Earth to generate those untold trillions of dollars so exports are out
>>>>>also.
>>>>>
>>>>>If someone thinks otherwise, name that good.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Note that I've already done that for him. He just doesn't like that
>>>> there is an answer, so he ignores it.
>>>
>>>Nope, you arm waved about telecommunications and software.
>>>
>>
>> So you insist on something at the level of predicting Microsoft and
>> Apple in 1940? Now you're just being silly.
>
>Nope, something worth importing from Mars in the near decades.
>
You won't have a colony that is economically self-supporting in the
'near decades' any more than any other colony has been. It appears
Jim is back to his demands for an 'instant colony' that is born
self-sufficient.
>>>> Most of those 'untold trillions' are largely in 'internal to Mars'
>>>> money and thus are unrelated to his 'shipping rocks'. Ask yourself
>>>> how the American West was settled.
>>>
>>>Nope, again we are talking about the trillions in stuff that has to be
>>>acquired on Earth and shipped to Mars to maintain and expand the colooy.
>>>
>>
>> Yep, largely 'internal Mars' money.
>
>Nope, has to be spent on Earth for acquistion on Earth and shipping
>from Earth.
>
Name those items. Try not to list stupid and trivial shit like
diapers. We're talking about SURVIVAL now, right, and not a rich
suburb in Connecticut.
>>>
>>>The American West was settled by farmers in horse drawn wagons with
>>>hand tools and sacks of seed, which is hardly relevant to Mars.
>>>
>>
>> Do you not know shit about the settlement of the American West,
>> either? Go read up on covered wagons.
>
>Yes, and the American West is pretty irelevant to Mars.
>
But I'm sure you'll argue it anyway. It's who you are.
>
>Establish a new family on Earth:
>
>Load the horse drawn wagon the the wife, kids, hand tools, initial
>provisions for the trip, some caged chickens and a sack of seeds.
>
OK, so you need sophisticated transport (look at what one of those
wagons cost), the best tools and technology you can afford carried
with you, lots of interim supplies, fittings to be able to put
together machines you'll need, etc. Just like Mars.
>
>Find a nice spot near lumber and water sources.
>
Find a place near resources you need. Same as Mars.
>
>Plant seeds, cut timber to build cabin,d dig a well so as to not have
>to walk as far to get water, build a chicken coop, dig a hole and build
>an outhouse. If you forgot to bring a plow, make a wooden one.
>
Establish food source. Establish living space. Establish water
source. Just like Mars.
>
>While waiting for the first crop, forage for wild vegetables, fish, and
>hunt game and eat some of the eggs from the chickens.
>
Eat your food concentrates while you wait for your food production to
kick in. Same as Mars.
>
>If you see any Indians, don't piss them off; try to make friends.
>
Well, that one doesn't apply to Mars, right enough.
>
>Establish a new community on Earth:
>
>Do several of the above and include some trademen like blacksmiths,
>carpenters, and wheelwrights to form the town.
>
Just like Mars.
<snip>
So your objection is that it takes modern technology now, just like it
took modern technology then (modern having moved with the years).
--
"Some people get lost in thought because it's such unfamiliar
territory."
--G. Behn
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-14 18:01 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <5h25uc-nl3.ln1@mail.specsol.com> |
| In reply to | #570338 |
In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote: At first I was going to respond to the whole thing then I realized most of it was idiocy like not knowing how disease spreads and denial of all the scholarly work that says there was a pre-columbian population of 50 million to 100 million, 80 o 90 percent of which were killed by European diseseses. Then I noticed you snipped the important part, so I'll just repost that part. Establish a new family on Earth: Load the horse drawn wagon the the wife, kids, hand tools, initial provisions for the trip, some caged chickens and a sack of seeds. Find a nice spot near tree and water sources. Plant seeds, cut timber to build cabin,d dig a well so as to not have to walk as far to get water, build a chicken coop, take shelter in the wagon until the cabin is built. Dig a hole and build an outhouse so you don't have to walk to the woods to take a dump. If you forgot to bring a plow, make a wooden one. While waiting for the first crop, forage for wild vegetables, fish, and hunt game and eat some of the eggs from the chickens. If you see any Indians, don't piss them off; try to make friends. All of the tecnonology, other than firearms, is well over a thousand years old. All the stuff you have is hand made and most of it is made of wood. The item with the most technology in it is a cast iron cooking pot. Establsh a new family on Mars: Haul in many tons of technology, materials, tools, food, oxygen, water and repair parts by some means. While working in pressure suits... Install power system. Put up a radiation sheilded structure or bury a non-shielded staructure. Install pressurization system with oxygen tanks and CO2 scrubbers. Install water tanks and plumbing system with toilets and refuse system. Install heating system. Install water recyling system and refuse to fertilizer system. Set up system to generate oxygen from rocks and pipe it into the structue. Set up system to mine ice, melt it, purify it, and pipe it into the structure tanks. Set up pressurized environment to grow food and connect to the power, water, and oxygen system. Plant seeds. While waiting for the first crop, eat the tons of provisions you brought with you. Prey nothing breaks and if it does that you have a repair part. The oldest technology you have is mid 20th century. Everything you have is made by machines in factories. The raw materials for the things you have had to be gathered from all over the Earth. Aluminum, for example, comes from Australia, Brazil, China, India, Guinea, Indonesia, Jamaica, Russia and Suriname, but not Pittsburg. The lowest technology items you have are your aluminum alloy cooking utensils. -- Jim Pennino
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-14 13:39 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <ubvvgb1ro4oss8rbeqtkhe1gtsdgdhugde@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #570467 |
jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>At first I was going to respond to the whole thing then I realized most
>of it was idiocy like not knowing how disease spreads and denial of
>all the scholarly work that says there was a pre-columbian population
>of 50 million to 100 million, 80 o 90 percent of which were killed
>by European diseseses.
>
So you noticed your own delusions.
>
>Then I noticed you snipped the important part, so I'll just repost that part.
>
You mean the biased part that misstates things?
>Establish a new family on Earth:
>
Already responded to this part, but I'll add one addition.
>Load the horse drawn wagon the the wife, kids, hand tools, initial
>provisions for the trip, some caged chickens and a sack of seeds.
>
>Find a nice spot near tree and water sources.
>
>Plant seeds, cut timber to build cabin,d dig a well so as to not have
>to walk as far to get water, build a chicken coop, take shelter in the
>wagon until the cabin is built.
>
>Dig a hole and build an outhouse so you don't have to walk to the woods
>to take a dump. If you forgot to bring a plow, make a wooden one.
>
>While waiting for the first crop, forage for wild vegetables, fish, and
>hunt game and eat some of the eggs from the chickens.
>
And probably starve to death if that's your mechanism rather than
having supplies on hand.
>If you see any Indians, don't piss them off; try to make friends.
>
>All of the tecnonology, other than firearms, is well over a thousand
>years old.
>
>All the stuff you have is hand made and most of it is made of wood.
>
Except for all the essential tools, which were high tech items in the
day.
>The item with the most technology in it is a cast iron cooking pot.
>
>
>
>Establsh a new family on Mars:
>
Which won't be done at all the way it was done on Earth, with one
individual going off by themselves. Now that I've pointed that out,
you'll claim that Earth colonization doesn't matter and that bringing
it up is stupid.
>
>Haul in many tons of technology, materials, tools, food, oxygen, water
>and repair parts by some means.
>
>While working in pressure suits...
>
>Install power system.
>
Self-contained. No 'installation' required.
>
>Put up a radiation sheilded structure or bury a non-shielded staructure.
>
In other words, 'dig a hole'.
All of the following is pretty much also self-contained and automated,
so all your 'install' and 'set up' is pretty much non-existent.
>
>Install pressurization system with oxygen tanks and CO2 scrubbers.
>
>Install water tanks and plumbing system with toilets and refuse system.
>
>Install heating system.
>
>Install water recyling system and refuse to fertilizer system.
>
>Set up system to generate oxygen from rocks and pipe it into the structue.
>
>Set up system to mine ice, melt it, purify it, and pipe it into the
>structure tanks.
>
So to this point your 'install' and 'set up' amounts to plugging in
some power and water conduits.
What follows only applies if you intend to farm. Jim may not be
aware, but we've moved away from agrarian societies over the last
several centuries.
>
>Set up pressurized environment to grow food and connect to the power,
>water, and oxygen system.
>
>Plant seeds.
>
>While waiting for the first crop, eat the tons of provisions you brought
>with you.
>
>Prey nothing breaks and if it does that you have a repair part.
>
>The oldest technology you have is mid 20th century.
>
>Everything you have is made by machines in factories.
>
>The raw materials for the things you have had to be gathered from all
>over the Earth.
>
>Aluminum, for example, comes from Australia, Brazil, China, India, Guinea,
>Indonesia, Jamaica, Russia and Suriname, but not Pittsburg.
>
>The lowest technology items you have are your aluminum alloy cooking utensils.
>
You can't cook in cast iron anymore? Wow, who knew?
--
"Some people get lost in thought because it's such unfamiliar
territory."
--G. Behn
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-14 22:24 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <1th5uc-r65.ln1@mail.specsol.com> |
| In reply to | #570517 |
In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote: > jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: > >>In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>At first I was going to respond to the whole thing then I realized most >>of it was idiocy like not knowing how disease spreads and denial of >>all the scholarly work that says there was a pre-columbian population >>of 50 million to 100 million, 80 o 90 percent of which were killed >>by European diseseses. >> > > So you noticed your own delusions. No, I quoted three scholarly sources, all of which said essentially the same thing. >> >>Then I noticed you snipped the important part, so I'll just repost that part. >> > > You mean the biased part that misstates things? I know a realist description bothers you space cadet. > >>Establish a new family on Earth: >> > > Already responded to this part, but I'll add one addition. > >>Load the horse drawn wagon the the wife, kids, hand tools, initial >>provisions for the trip, some caged chickens and a sack of seeds. >> >>Find a nice spot near tree and water sources. >> >>Plant seeds, cut timber to build cabin,d dig a well so as to not have >>to walk as far to get water, build a chicken coop, take shelter in the >>wagon until the cabin is built. >> >>Dig a hole and build an outhouse so you don't have to walk to the woods >>to take a dump. If you forgot to bring a plow, make a wooden one. >> >>While waiting for the first crop, forage for wild vegetables, fish, and >>hunt game and eat some of the eggs from the chickens. >> > > And probably starve to death if that's your mechanism rather than > having supplies on hand. What part of forage for wild vegetables, fish, and hunt game did you not understand? >>If you see any Indians, don't piss them off; try to make friends. >> >>All of the tecnonology, other than firearms, is well over a thousand >>years old. >> >>All the stuff you have is hand made and most of it is made of wood. >> > > Except for all the essential tools, which were high tech items in the > day. Nope, the axe, saw, plow, etc. are very, very old technology. >>The item with the most technology in it is a cast iron cooking pot. >> >> >> >>Establsh a new family on Mars: >> > > Which won't be done at all the way it was done on Earth, with one > individual going off by themselves. Now that I've pointed that out, > you'll claim that Earth colonization doesn't matter and that bringing > it up is stupid. It was usually groups that went off together, but upon arrival, everything I have said is accurate. And the title was "Establish a new family on Earth". >> >>Haul in many tons of technology, materials, tools, food, oxygen, water >>and repair parts by some means. >> >>While working in pressure suits... >> >>Install power system. >> > > Self-contained. No 'installation' required. So it it going to get out of the transport vehicle, site itself, then connect itself, no assembly required? >> >>Put up a radiation sheilded structure or bury a non-shielded staructure. >> > > In other words, 'dig a hole'. Yes, a very big hole, put your shelter in in, and cover it up, all while in a pressure suit. > All of the following is pretty much also self-contained and automated, > so all your 'install' and 'set up' is pretty much non-existent. Utter nonsense. None that stuff is going to get out of the transport vehicle, site itself, then connect itself, no assembly required. >> >>Install pressurization system with oxygen tanks and CO2 scrubbers. >> >>Install water tanks and plumbing system with toilets and refuse system. >> >>Install heating system. >> >>Install water recyling system and refuse to fertilizer system. >> >>Set up system to generate oxygen from rocks and pipe it into the structue. >> >>Set up system to mine ice, melt it, purify it, and pipe it into the >>structure tanks. >> > > So to this point your 'install' and 'set up' amounts to plugging in > some power and water conduits. Site leveling, movement, and connections at the minimum assuming everything is pre assembled, all while in a pressure suit. > > What follows only applies if you intend to farm. Jim may not be > aware, but we've moved away from agrarian societies over the last > several centuries. The space cadet may not be aware, but we moved away from agrarian societies at the end of the 19th century when farm machinery was invented and farming became much less labor intensive. The space cadet may not be aware, but the priorities on Mars would be to ensure a constant supply of air, water, and food, in that order. >> >>Set up pressurized environment to grow food and connect to the power, >>water, and oxygen system. >> >>Plant seeds. >> >>While waiting for the first crop, eat the tons of provisions you brought >>with you. >> >>Prey nothing breaks and if it does that you have a repair part. >> >>The oldest technology you have is mid 20th century. >> >>Everything you have is made by machines in factories. >> >>The raw materials for the things you have had to be gathered from all >>over the Earth. >> >>Aluminum, for example, comes from Australia, Brazil, China, India, Guinea, >>Indonesia, Jamaica, Russia and Suriname, but not Pittsburg. >> >>The lowest technology items you have are your aluminum alloy cooking utensils. >> > > You can't cook in cast iron anymore? Wow, who knew? Sure you can, but only an idiot would chose cast iron over aluminum for Mars if for no other reason than the weight penalty. -- Jim Pennino
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-14 16:53 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <a6a0hb5dj8pstv7930cjoolvuovtk5d0bs@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #570546 |
jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote:
>> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>>
>>>In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>At first I was going to respond to the whole thing then I realized most
>>>of it was idiocy like not knowing how disease spreads and denial of
>>>all the scholarly work that says there was a pre-columbian population
>>>of 50 million to 100 million, 80 o 90 percent of which were killed
>>>by European diseseses.
>>>
>>
>> So you noticed your own delusions.
>
>No, I quoted three scholarly sources, all of which said essentially
>the same thing.
>
I don't believe I am derided in any of your 'scholarly sources' unless
you wrote them yourself.
>
>>>
>>>Then I noticed you snipped the important part, so I'll just repost that part.
>>>
>>
>> You mean the biased part that misstates things?
>>
>
>I know a realist description bothers you space cadet.
>
I know you wouldn't know a 'realistic description' if it came up and
bit you, chimpshit.
>>
>>>Establish a new family on Earth:
>>>
>>
>> Already responded to this part, but I'll add one addition.
>>
>>>Load the horse drawn wagon the the wife, kids, hand tools, initial
>>>provisions for the trip, some caged chickens and a sack of seeds.
>>>
>>>Find a nice spot near tree and water sources.
>>>
>>>Plant seeds, cut timber to build cabin,d dig a well so as to not have
>>>to walk as far to get water, build a chicken coop, take shelter in the
>>>wagon until the cabin is built.
>>>
>>>Dig a hole and build an outhouse so you don't have to walk to the woods
>>>to take a dump. If you forgot to bring a plow, make a wooden one.
>>>
>>>While waiting for the first crop, forage for wild vegetables, fish, and
>>>hunt game and eat some of the eggs from the chickens.
>>>
>>
>> And probably starve to death if that's your mechanism rather than
>> having supplies on hand.
>
>What part of forage for wild vegetables, fish, and hunt game did you
>not understand?
>
Which part of "not the Garden of Eden" did you not understand?
>>>If you see any Indians, don't piss them off; try to make friends.
>>>
>>>All of the tecnonology, other than firearms, is well over a thousand
>>>years old.
>>>
>>>All the stuff you have is hand made and most of it is made of wood.
>>>
>>
>> Except for all the essential tools, which were high tech items in the
>> day.
>
>Nope, the axe, saw, plow, etc. are very, very old technology.
>
But the ones being carried were not, necessarily. The automobile is
'old technology', but it's changed a lot over the years.
>>>The item with the most technology in it is a cast iron cooking pot.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Establsh a new family on Mars:
>>>
>>
>> Which won't be done at all the way it was done on Earth, with one
>> individual going off by themselves. Now that I've pointed that out,
>> you'll claim that Earth colonization doesn't matter and that bringing
>> it up is stupid.
>
>It was usually groups that went off together, but upon arrival, everything
>I have said is accurate.
>
>And the title was "Establish a new family on Earth".
>
'A new family on Mars' would move into an existing settlement, so
everything you said was pretty much bullshit.
>>>
>>>Haul in many tons of technology, materials, tools, food, oxygen, water
>>>and repair parts by some means.
>>>
>>>While working in pressure suits...
>>>
>>>Install power system.
>>>
>>
>> Self-contained. No 'installation' required.
>
>So it it going to get out of the transport vehicle, site itself, then
>connect itself, no assembly required?
>
Plugs are 'old technology', chimp. I'm sure even you can operate
them. You know, if you would READ the things you're pointed to rather
than trying to construct a case for why they don't apply you would not
make such stupid statements.
>>>
>>>Put up a radiation sheilded structure or bury a non-shielded staructure.
>>>
>>
>> In other words, 'dig a hole'.
>
>Yes, a very big hole, put your shelter in in, and cover it up, all
>while in a pressure suit.
>
Digging holes is 'old technology'.
>> All of the following is pretty much also self-contained and automated,
>> so all your 'install' and 'set up' is pretty much non-existent.
>
>Utter nonsense.
>
Good of you to label your following output, but it wasn't necessary.
>
>None that stuff is going to get out of the transport vehicle, site
>itself, then connect itself, no assembly required.
>
Chimp, you know where you want to put it (the analog to your 'pick a
place with forests and water'), so you land it there. Sited. Yes, it
will 'unload itself'. Out of the transport vehicle. As for your
"connect itself", you're just being intellectually dishonest. I said
you'd have to plug in power and water conduits (also oxygen). Perhaps
that's too challenging for you, but most of us can handle plugging
things in.
>>>
>>>Install pressurization system with oxygen tanks and CO2 scrubbers.
>>>
>>>Install water tanks and plumbing system with toilets and refuse system.
>>>
>>>Install heating system.
>>>
>>>Install water recyling system and refuse to fertilizer system.
>>>
>>>Set up system to generate oxygen from rocks and pipe it into the structue.
>>>
>>>Set up system to mine ice, melt it, purify it, and pipe it into the
>>>structure tanks.
>>>
>>
>> So to this point your 'install' and 'set up' amounts to plugging in
>> some power and water conduits.
>
>Site leveling, movement, and connections at the minimum assuming
>everything is pre assembled, all while in a pressure suit.
>
You don't need to do 'site leveling'. The automated equipment is
self-leveling. You need to plug some connectors together. I can
believe that's too hard for you, but then we'll be sending normal
human beings to Mars, not you.
>>
>> What follows only applies if you intend to farm. Jim may not be
>> aware, but we've moved away from agrarian societies over the last
>> several centuries.
>
>The space cadet may not be aware, but we moved away from agrarian societies
>at the end of the 19th century when farm machinery was invented and
>farming became much less labor intensive.
>
The chimpshit may not be aware, but we have all sorts of agricultural
methods that have been developed since then and it probably hasn't
occurred to him that "less labor intensive" is what I'm talking about
and he's objecting to as not possible.
>
>The space cadet may not be aware, but the priorities on Mars would be
>to ensure a constant supply of air, water, and food, in that order.
>
The chimpshit may not be aware, but the only one of those that is even
slightly complicated is the last one (and only because of the space
required). The chimpshit may also not realize that since you bring
years worth of food with you when you come, you have time to work on
the whole 'local food production' problem. It's not like you have to
solve it next Tuesday.
>>>
>>>Set up pressurized environment to grow food and connect to the power,
>>>water, and oxygen system.
>>>
>>>Plant seeds.
>>>
>>>While waiting for the first crop, eat the tons of provisions you brought
>>>with you.
>>>
>>>Prey nothing breaks and if it does that you have a repair part.
>>>
>>>The oldest technology you have is mid 20th century.
>>>
>>>Everything you have is made by machines in factories.
>>>
>>>The raw materials for the things you have had to be gathered from all
>>>over the Earth.
>>>
>>>Aluminum, for example, comes from Australia, Brazil, China, India, Guinea,
>>>Indonesia, Jamaica, Russia and Suriname, but not Pittsburg.
>>>
>>>The lowest technology items you have are your aluminum alloy cooking utensils.
>>>
>>
>> You can't cook in cast iron anymore? Wow, who knew?
>
>Sure you can, but only an idiot would chose cast iron over aluminum for
>Mars if for no other reason than the weight penalty.
>
When you're moving a hundred tonnes at a time, is that really an
issue? I don't think so, but of course Jimp The Chimp needed to find
a barrier to throw up...
--
"Some people get lost in thought because it's such unfamiliar
territory."
--G. Behn
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-15 00:22 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <kro5uc-816.ln1@mail.specsol.com> |
| In reply to | #570580 |
In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote: > jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: > >>In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote: >>> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: >>> >>>>In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>At first I was going to respond to the whole thing then I realized most >>>>of it was idiocy like not knowing how disease spreads and denial of >>>>all the scholarly work that says there was a pre-columbian population >>>>of 50 million to 100 million, 80 o 90 percent of which were killed >>>>by European diseseses. >>>> >>> >>> So you noticed your own delusions. >> >>No, I quoted three scholarly sources, all of which said essentially >>the same thing. >> > > I don't believe I am derided in any of your 'scholarly sources' unless > you wrote them yourself. No, but you certainly are contradicted. >>>> >>>>Then I noticed you snipped the important part, so I'll just repost that part. >>>> >>> >>> You mean the biased part that misstates things? >>> >> >>I know a realist description bothers you space cadet. >> > > I know you wouldn't know a 'realistic description' if it came up and > bit you, chimpshit. I know you can't resist spewing bile and insults. > >>> >>>>Establish a new family on Earth: >>>> >>> >>> Already responded to this part, but I'll add one addition. >>> >>>>Load the horse drawn wagon the the wife, kids, hand tools, initial >>>>provisions for the trip, some caged chickens and a sack of seeds. >>>> >>>>Find a nice spot near tree and water sources. >>>> >>>>Plant seeds, cut timber to build cabin,d dig a well so as to not have >>>>to walk as far to get water, build a chicken coop, take shelter in the >>>>wagon until the cabin is built. >>>> >>>>Dig a hole and build an outhouse so you don't have to walk to the woods >>>>to take a dump. If you forgot to bring a plow, make a wooden one. >>>> >>>>While waiting for the first crop, forage for wild vegetables, fish, and >>>>hunt game and eat some of the eggs from the chickens. >>>> >>> >>> And probably starve to death if that's your mechanism rather than >>> having supplies on hand. >> >>What part of forage for wild vegetables, fish, and hunt game did you >>not understand? >> > > Which part of "not the Garden of Eden" did you not understand? What part of forage for wild vegetables, fish, and hunt game did you not understand? While such activities may be far beyond your ability, most people before the 20th century were very adept at it. >>>>If you see any Indians, don't piss them off; try to make friends. >>>> >>>>All of the tecnonology, other than firearms, is well over a thousand >>>>years old. >>>> >>>>All the stuff you have is hand made and most of it is made of wood. >>>> >>> >>> Except for all the essential tools, which were high tech items in the >>> day. >> >>Nope, the axe, saw, plow, etc. are very, very old technology. >> > > But the ones being carried were not, necessarily. The automobile is > 'old technology', but it's changed a lot over the years. Sure they were old technology, space cadet. The last improvements were made when they started to be made of iron. You are grasping at straws. >>>>The item with the most technology in it is a cast iron cooking pot. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>Establsh a new family on Mars: >>>> >>> >>> Which won't be done at all the way it was done on Earth, with one >>> individual going off by themselves. Now that I've pointed that out, >>> you'll claim that Earth colonization doesn't matter and that bringing >>> it up is stupid. >> >>It was usually groups that went off together, but upon arrival, everything >>I have said is accurate. >> >>And the title was "Establish a new family on Earth". >> > > 'A new family on Mars' would move into an existing settlement, so > everything you said was pretty much bullshit. So how many codos are you going to build before the construction workers pause and the colonist move in? How does that in any way effect what you have to have other than bigger and more everything? >>>> >>>>Haul in many tons of technology, materials, tools, food, oxygen, water >>>>and repair parts by some means. >>>> >>>>While working in pressure suits... >>>> >>>>Install power system. >>>> >>> >>> Self-contained. No 'installation' required. >> >>So it it going to get out of the transport vehicle, site itself, then >>connect itself, no assembly required? >> > > Plugs are 'old technology', chimp. I'm sure even you can operate > them. You know, if you would READ the things you're pointed to rather > than trying to construct a case for why they don't apply you would not > make such stupid statements. So it it going to get out of the transport vehicle, site itself, then connect itself, no assembly required? > >>>> >>>>Put up a radiation sheilded structure or bury a non-shielded staructure. >>>> >>> >>> In other words, 'dig a hole'. >> >>Yes, a very big hole, put your shelter in in, and cover it up, all >>while in a pressure suit. >> > > Digging holes is 'old technology'. Not on Mars unless you are going to have Chinese workers in pressure suits. >>> All of the following is pretty much also self-contained and automated, >>> so all your 'install' and 'set up' is pretty much non-existent. >> >>Utter nonsense. >> > > Good of you to label your following output, but it wasn't necessary. Nope, the utter nonsese is your hand waving away the complexity of it all. >> >>None that stuff is going to get out of the transport vehicle, site >>itself, then connect itself, no assembly required. >> > > Chimp, you know where you want to put it (the analog to your 'pick a > place with forests and water'), so you land it there. Sited. Yes, it > will 'unload itself'. Out of the transport vehicle. As for your > "connect itself", you're just being intellectually dishonest. I said > you'd have to plug in power and water conduits (also oxygen). Perhaps > that's too challenging for you, but most of us can handle plugging > things in. Yeah, sure, space cadet. Why would a power system have wheels and be able to drive itself, space cadet? What if the ground is uneven and the slightest bit rocky, space cadet? Oh, I know, the autonomous bull dozer rolls out first and levels everything. >>>> >>>>Install pressurization system with oxygen tanks and CO2 scrubbers. >>>> >>>>Install water tanks and plumbing system with toilets and refuse system. >>>> >>>>Install heating system. >>>> >>>>Install water recyling system and refuse to fertilizer system. >>>> >>>>Set up system to generate oxygen from rocks and pipe it into the structue. >>>> >>>>Set up system to mine ice, melt it, purify it, and pipe it into the >>>>structure tanks. >>>> >>> >>> So to this point your 'install' and 'set up' amounts to plugging in >>> some power and water conduits. >> >>Site leveling, movement, and connections at the minimum assuming >>everything is pre assembled, all while in a pressure suit. >> > > You don't need to do 'site leveling'. The automated equipment is > self-leveling. You need to plug some connectors together. I can > believe that's too hard for you, but then we'll be sending normal > human beings to Mars, not you. Yeah, sure, space cadet. And the AI that drives the water plant also makes a good cup of Earl Grey. >>> >>> What follows only applies if you intend to farm. Jim may not be >>> aware, but we've moved away from agrarian societies over the last >>> several centuries. >> >>The space cadet may not be aware, but we moved away from agrarian societies >>at the end of the 19th century when farm machinery was invented and >>farming became much less labor intensive. >> > > The chimpshit may not be aware, but we have all sorts of agricultural > methods that have been developed since then and it probably hasn't > occurred to him that "less labor intensive" is what I'm talking about > and he's objecting to as not possible. There go those voices in your head again, space cadet, I never said anything about not possible. >>The space cadet may not be aware, but the priorities on Mars would be >>to ensure a constant supply of air, water, and food, in that order. >> > > The chimpshit may not be aware, but the only one of those that is even > slightly complicated is the last one (and only because of the space > required). The chimpshit may also not realize that since you bring > years worth of food with you when you come, you have time to work on > the whole 'local food production' problem. It's not like you have to > solve it next Tuesday. There go those voices in your head again, space cadet, I never said anything about next Tuesday. > >>>> >>>>Set up pressurized environment to grow food and connect to the power, >>>>water, and oxygen system. >>>> >>>>Plant seeds. >>>> >>>>While waiting for the first crop, eat the tons of provisions you brought >>>>with you. >>>> >>>>Prey nothing breaks and if it does that you have a repair part. >>>> >>>>The oldest technology you have is mid 20th century. >>>> >>>>Everything you have is made by machines in factories. >>>> >>>>The raw materials for the things you have had to be gathered from all >>>>over the Earth. >>>> >>>>Aluminum, for example, comes from Australia, Brazil, China, India, Guinea, >>>>Indonesia, Jamaica, Russia and Suriname, but not Pittsburg. >>>> >>>>The lowest technology items you have are your aluminum alloy cooking utensils. >>>> >>> >>> You can't cook in cast iron anymore? Wow, who knew? >> >>Sure you can, but only an idiot would chose cast iron over aluminum for >>Mars if for no other reason than the weight penalty. >> > > When you're moving a hundred tonnes at a time, is that really an > issue? I don't think so, but of course Jimp The Chimp needed to find > a barrier to throw up... Sure it is an issue, space cadet, everything will be optimized to be as light as possible while maintaining functionality. To do otherwise is blazingly stupid even for you. Do you think all the structures will be built of steel for cost or aluminum for weight? -- Jim Pennino
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| From | Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-14 18:28 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <5be0hbll48ss7rpinvlhvqsvl50god3a6q@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #570596 |
jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote:
>> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>>
>>>In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>At first I was going to respond to the whole thing then I realized most
>>>>>of it was idiocy like not knowing how disease spreads and denial of
>>>>>all the scholarly work that says there was a pre-columbian population
>>>>>of 50 million to 100 million, 80 o 90 percent of which were killed
>>>>>by European diseseses.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> So you noticed your own delusions.
>>>
>>>No, I quoted three scholarly sources, all of which said essentially
>>>the same thing.
>>>
>>
>> I don't believe I am derided in any of your 'scholarly sources' unless
>> you wrote them yourself.
>>
>
>No, but you certainly are contradicted.
>
And how is that, chimp? What did I write (not what you read, what I
wrote) that they 'contradict'.
>
>>>>>
>>>>>Then I noticed you snipped the important part, so I'll just repost that part.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> You mean the biased part that misstates things?
>>>>
>>>
>>>I know a realist description bothers you space cadet.
>>>
>>
>> I know you wouldn't know a 'realistic description' if it came up and
>> bit you, chimpshit.
>>
>
>I know you can't resist spewing bile and insults.
>
No doubt you 'know' all sorts of rather silly things. Why, if you
didn't, you wouldn't be able to maintain your "I'm right and everyone
else is wrong and mean to me" attitude.
>>
>>>>
>>>>>Establish a new family on Earth:
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Already responded to this part, but I'll add one addition.
>>>>
>>>>>Load the horse drawn wagon the the wife, kids, hand tools, initial
>>>>>provisions for the trip, some caged chickens and a sack of seeds.
>>>>>
>>>>>Find a nice spot near tree and water sources.
>>>>>
>>>>>Plant seeds, cut timber to build cabin,d dig a well so as to not have
>>>>>to walk as far to get water, build a chicken coop, take shelter in the
>>>>>wagon until the cabin is built.
>>>>>
>>>>>Dig a hole and build an outhouse so you don't have to walk to the woods
>>>>>to take a dump. If you forgot to bring a plow, make a wooden one.
>>>>>
>>>>>While waiting for the first crop, forage for wild vegetables, fish, and
>>>>>hunt game and eat some of the eggs from the chickens.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> And probably starve to death if that's your mechanism rather than
>>>> having supplies on hand.
>>>
>>>What part of forage for wild vegetables, fish, and hunt game did you
>>>not understand?
>>>
>>
>> Which part of "not the Garden of Eden" did you not understand?
>
>What part of forage for wild vegetables, fish, and hunt game did you
>not understand?
>
What part of "not the Garden of Eden" did you not understand?
>
>While such activities may be far beyond your ability, most people
>before the 20th century were very adept at it.
>
Yeah, that's why Jamestown had to trade with the natives for food. And
at that they damned near starved to death one year (well, a lot of
them DID starve to death).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starving_Time
>>>>>If you see any Indians, don't piss them off; try to make friends.
>>>>>
>>>>>All of the tecnonology, other than firearms, is well over a thousand
>>>>>years old.
>>>>>
>>>>>All the stuff you have is hand made and most of it is made of wood.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Except for all the essential tools, which were high tech items in the
>>>> day.
>>>
>>>Nope, the axe, saw, plow, etc. are very, very old technology.
>>>
>>
>> But the ones being carried were not, necessarily. The automobile is
>> 'old technology', but it's changed a lot over the years.
>
>Sure they were old technology, space cadet.
>
Wrong, chimpshit.
>The last improvements were made when they started to be made of iron.
>
Wrong.
>
>You are grasping at straws.
>
Read this and stop being so ignorant. Vast improvements to plows in
colonial times.
http://www.lib.niu.edu/2001/iht810102.html
>
>>>>>The item with the most technology in it is a cast iron cooking pot.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Establsh a new family on Mars:
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Which won't be done at all the way it was done on Earth, with one
>>>> individual going off by themselves. Now that I've pointed that out,
>>>> you'll claim that Earth colonization doesn't matter and that bringing
>>>> it up is stupid.
>>>
>>>It was usually groups that went off together, but upon arrival, everything
>>>I have said is accurate.
>>>
>>>And the title was "Establish a new family on Earth".
>>>
>>
>> 'A new family on Mars' would move into an existing settlement, so
>> everything you said was pretty much bullshit.
>>
>
>So how many codos are you going to build before the construction workers
>pause and the colonist move in?
>
'Construction workers'? We're not talking about suburban Connecticut,
chimpshit.
>
>How does that in any way effect what you have to have other than bigger
>and more everything?
>
It doesn't 'effect' anything, but it does 'affect' a few things, but
in ways that make it easier. You probably already have excess power,
water, and air, because you'd add that stuff in 'blocks'. That means
all you have to do is (potentially) dig a hole, drop an inflatable in,
blow it up, connect the couplings, and cover it all back up with dirt.
>>>>>
>>>>>Haul in many tons of technology, materials, tools, food, oxygen, water
>>>>>and repair parts by some means.
>>>>>
>>>>>While working in pressure suits...
>>>>>
>>>>>Install power system.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Self-contained. No 'installation' required.
>>>
>>>So it it going to get out of the transport vehicle, site itself, then
>>>connect itself, no assembly required?
>>>
>>
>> Plugs are 'old technology', chimp. I'm sure even you can operate
>> them. You know, if you would READ the things you're pointed to rather
>> than trying to construct a case for why they don't apply you would not
>> make such stupid statements.
>
>So it it going to get out of the transport vehicle, site itself, then
>connect itself, no assembly required?
>
Again, you should have read the papers I gave you pointers to instead
of just throwing up objections and excuses for why you don't think
they apply because they don't talk about dogs and diapers. Of course
it's going to do all that but 'connect itself'. Do you never actually
read what is said to you? I suspect your average Mars colonist can
handle hooking up a few fittings.
Go back and read the Mars Reference Architecture (no, really read it
this time). In situ fuel production that starts years before humans
arrive. Yes, it's going to get out of the transport vehicle, cite
itself, etc. No assembly required.
Ditto with power, except the people will have to run some cables once
they get there. Reactor lands itself several hundred meters from
where the habitat will be. Yes, it's going to get out of the
transport vehicle, cite itself, etc. When the habitat is in place,
plug in power.
You wouldn't say nearly so many stupid things, Jim, if you ACTUALLY
READ WHAT PEOPLE WRITE AND WHAT THEY POINT YOU TO.
>
>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Put up a radiation sheilded structure or bury a non-shielded staructure.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> In other words, 'dig a hole'.
>>>
>>>Yes, a very big hole, put your shelter in in, and cover it up, all
>>>while in a pressure suit.
>>>
>>
>> Digging holes is 'old technology'.
>
>Not on Mars unless you are going to have Chinese workers in pressure
>suits.
>
How long have we been digging holes, Jim? Here, educate yourself so
you can try to stop saying so much stupid shit:
http://www.ritchiewiki.com/wiki/index.php/Excavation
We've had excavating machinery and explosives for over a century. It's
19th century technology, chimp. Of course we'll use more compact and
modern equipment on Mars, but it's still simple stuff.
>>>> All of the following is pretty much also self-contained and automated,
>>>> so all your 'install' and 'set up' is pretty much non-existent.
>>>
>>>Utter nonsense.
>>>
>>
>> Good of you to label your following output, but it wasn't necessary.
>
>Nope, the utter nonsese is your hand waving away the complexity of it all.
>
There is no 'complexity of it all' except in your obstructionist mind.
>>>
>>>None that stuff is going to get out of the transport vehicle, site
>>>itself, then connect itself, no assembly required.
>>>
>>
>> Chimp, you know where you want to put it (the analog to your 'pick a
>> place with forests and water'), so you land it there. Sited. Yes, it
>> will 'unload itself'. Out of the transport vehicle. As for your
>> "connect itself", you're just being intellectually dishonest. I said
>> you'd have to plug in power and water conduits (also oxygen). Perhaps
>> that's too challenging for you, but most of us can handle plugging
>> things in.
>
>Yeah, sure, space cadet.
>
You never actually read ANYTHING, do you, chimpshit?
>
>Why would a power system have wheels and be able to drive itself, space
>cadet?
>
Who said it had to, chimpshit? Go read the Mars Reference Mission
again (no, REALLY read it and see how the power systems work).
>
>What if the ground is uneven and the slightest bit rocky, space cadet?
>
Self-leveling jacks, chimpshit. OLD technology.
>
>Oh, I know, the autonomous bull dozer rolls out first and levels everything.
>
Yes, as usual you know all sorts of stupid shit that you make up.
>>>>>
>>>>>Install pressurization system with oxygen tanks and CO2 scrubbers.
>>>>>
>>>>>Install water tanks and plumbing system with toilets and refuse system.
>>>>>
>>>>>Install heating system.
>>>>>
>>>>>Install water recyling system and refuse to fertilizer system.
>>>>>
>>>>>Set up system to generate oxygen from rocks and pipe it into the structue.
>>>>>
>>>>>Set up system to mine ice, melt it, purify it, and pipe it into the
>>>>>structure tanks.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> So to this point your 'install' and 'set up' amounts to plugging in
>>>> some power and water conduits.
>>>
>>>Site leveling, movement, and connections at the minimum assuming
>>>everything is pre assembled, all while in a pressure suit.
>>>
>>
>> You don't need to do 'site leveling'. The automated equipment is
>> self-leveling. You need to plug some connectors together. I can
>> believe that's too hard for you, but then we'll be sending normal
>> human beings to Mars, not you.
>
>Yeah, sure, space cadet.
>
Indeed, chimpshit.
>
>And the AI that drives the water plant also makes a good cup of Earl
>Grey.
>
You don't 'drive' anywhere, chimpshit. You just drop the stuff where
you want it in the first place.
And even if you do have to 'drive' it, you know we have autonomous
vehicles already, right? And we already have remote operated vehicles
on Mars (and that gets a lot easier once you take the lightspeed delay
out by actually being on site).
>>>>
>>>> What follows only applies if you intend to farm. Jim may not be
>>>> aware, but we've moved away from agrarian societies over the last
>>>> several centuries.
>>>
>>>The space cadet may not be aware, but we moved away from agrarian societies
>>>at the end of the 19th century when farm machinery was invented and
>>>farming became much less labor intensive.
>>>
>>
>> The chimpshit may not be aware, but we have all sorts of agricultural
>> methods that have been developed since then and it probably hasn't
>> occurred to him that "less labor intensive" is what I'm talking about
>> and he's objecting to as not possible.
>>
>
>There go those voices in your head again, space cadet, I never said
>anything about not possible.
>
Oh, I see now, chimpshit. All your made up barriers are to
demonstrate how EASY it is. Wow, how could we have missed that?
>
>>>The space cadet may not be aware, but the priorities on Mars would be
>>>to ensure a constant supply of air, water, and food, in that order.
>>>
>>
>> The chimpshit may not be aware, but the only one of those that is even
>> slightly complicated is the last one (and only because of the space
>> required). The chimpshit may also not realize that since you bring
>> years worth of food with you when you come, you have time to work on
>> the whole 'local food production' problem. It's not like you have to
>> solve it next Tuesday.
>>
>
>There go those voices in your head again, space cadet, I never said
>anything about next Tuesday.
>
Oh, I see now, chimpshit. All your made up barriers are to
demonstrate how EASY it is. Wow, how could we have missed that?
>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Set up pressurized environment to grow food and connect to the power,
>>>>>water, and oxygen system.
>>>>>
>>>>>Plant seeds.
>>>>>
>>>>>While waiting for the first crop, eat the tons of provisions you brought
>>>>>with you.
>>>>>
>>>>>Prey nothing breaks and if it does that you have a repair part.
>>>>>
>>>>>The oldest technology you have is mid 20th century.
>>>>>
>>>>>Everything you have is made by machines in factories.
>>>>>
>>>>>The raw materials for the things you have had to be gathered from all
>>>>>over the Earth.
>>>>>
>>>>>Aluminum, for example, comes from Australia, Brazil, China, India, Guinea,
>>>>>Indonesia, Jamaica, Russia and Suriname, but not Pittsburg.
>>>>>
>>>>>The lowest technology items you have are your aluminum alloy cooking utensils.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> You can't cook in cast iron anymore? Wow, who knew?
>>>
>>>Sure you can, but only an idiot would chose cast iron over aluminum for
>>>Mars if for no other reason than the weight penalty.
>>>
>>
>> When you're moving a hundred tonnes at a time, is that really an
>> issue? I don't think so, but of course Jimp The Chimp needed to find
>> a barrier to throw up...
>
>Sure it is an issue, space cadet, everything will be optimized to be as
>light as possible while maintaining functionality.
>
Why? You only need to do that if boost is expensive and rare.
>
>To do otherwise is blazingly stupid even for you.
>
No, thinking that's necessary is blazingly stupid. No wonder you
cannot conceive of how a Mars colony would work.
>
>Do you think all the structures will be built of steel for cost or
>aluminum for weight?
>
I think that's a blazingly stupid question. The answer is 'neither,
and not for either of those reasons'.
--
"Ignorance is preferable to error, and he is less remote from the
truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong."
-- Thomas Jefferson
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| From | jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-15 01:47 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <bqt5uc-uh6.ln1@mail.specsol.com> |
| In reply to | #570615 |
In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote: > jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: > >>In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote: >>> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: >>> >>>>In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>At first I was going to respond to the whole thing then I realized most >>>>>>of it was idiocy like not knowing how disease spreads and denial of >>>>>>all the scholarly work that says there was a pre-columbian population >>>>>>of 50 million to 100 million, 80 o 90 percent of which were killed >>>>>>by European diseseses. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> So you noticed your own delusions. >>>> >>>>No, I quoted three scholarly sources, all of which said essentially >>>>the same thing. >>>> >>> >>> I don't believe I am derided in any of your 'scholarly sources' unless >>> you wrote them yourself. >>> >> >>No, but you certainly are contradicted. >> > > And how is that, chimp? What did I write (not what you read, what I > wrote) that they 'contradict'. That the indiginous peoples were not wiped out by European diseases and that there were few people in pre-columbian Americas. Why ask such a silly question when you said it several times? >> >>>>>> >>>>>>Then I noticed you snipped the important part, so I'll just repost that part. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> You mean the biased part that misstates things? >>>>> >>>> >>>>I know a realist description bothers you space cadet. >>>> >>> >>> I know you wouldn't know a 'realistic description' if it came up and >>> bit you, chimpshit. >>> >> >>I know you can't resist spewing bile and insults. >> > > No doubt you 'know' all sorts of rather silly things. Why, if you > didn't, you wouldn't be able to maintain your "I'm right and everyone > else is wrong and mean to me" attitude. Gaffaw. > >>> >>>>> >>>>>>Establish a new family on Earth: >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Already responded to this part, but I'll add one addition. >>>>> >>>>>>Load the horse drawn wagon the the wife, kids, hand tools, initial >>>>>>provisions for the trip, some caged chickens and a sack of seeds. >>>>>> >>>>>>Find a nice spot near tree and water sources. >>>>>> >>>>>>Plant seeds, cut timber to build cabin,d dig a well so as to not have >>>>>>to walk as far to get water, build a chicken coop, take shelter in the >>>>>>wagon until the cabin is built. >>>>>> >>>>>>Dig a hole and build an outhouse so you don't have to walk to the woods >>>>>>to take a dump. If you forgot to bring a plow, make a wooden one. >>>>>> >>>>>>While waiting for the first crop, forage for wild vegetables, fish, and >>>>>>hunt game and eat some of the eggs from the chickens. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> And probably starve to death if that's your mechanism rather than >>>>> having supplies on hand. >>>> >>>>What part of forage for wild vegetables, fish, and hunt game did you >>>>not understand? >>>> >>> >>> Which part of "not the Garden of Eden" did you not understand? >> >>What part of forage for wild vegetables, fish, and hunt game did you >>not understand? >> > > What part of "not the Garden of Eden" did you not understand? What part of forage for wild vegetables, fish, and hunt game did you not understand? > >> >>While such activities may be far beyond your ability, most people >>before the 20th century were very adept at it. >> > > Yeah, that's why Jamestown had to trade with the natives for food. And > at that they damned near starved to death one year (well, a lot of > them DID starve to death). Yep, the stupid Europeans didn't properly tend to their fields and had to go begging for help from the Bronze Age savages who had a surplus of food. > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starving_Time > >>>>>>If you see any Indians, don't piss them off; try to make friends. >>>>>> >>>>>>All of the tecnonology, other than firearms, is well over a thousand >>>>>>years old. >>>>>> >>>>>>All the stuff you have is hand made and most of it is made of wood. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Except for all the essential tools, which were high tech items in the >>>>> day. >>>> >>>>Nope, the axe, saw, plow, etc. are very, very old technology. >>>> >>> >>> But the ones being carried were not, necessarily. The automobile is >>> 'old technology', but it's changed a lot over the years. >> >>Sure they were old technology, space cadet. >> > > Wrong, chimpshit. > >>The last improvements were made when they started to be made of iron. >> > > Wrong. Just saying wrong does not make it so. Name any improvement to the axe since when they started to be made of iron. The axe is a Stone Age tool. >> >>You are grasping at straws. >> > > Read this and stop being so ignorant. Vast improvements to plows in > colonial times. > > http://www.lib.niu.edu/2001/iht810102.html Yep, in late colonial times. Now about that improvement to the axe. >> >>>>>>The item with the most technology in it is a cast iron cooking pot. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>Establsh a new family on Mars: >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Which won't be done at all the way it was done on Earth, with one >>>>> individual going off by themselves. Now that I've pointed that out, >>>>> you'll claim that Earth colonization doesn't matter and that bringing >>>>> it up is stupid. >>>> >>>>It was usually groups that went off together, but upon arrival, everything >>>>I have said is accurate. >>>> >>>>And the title was "Establish a new family on Earth". >>>> >>> >>> 'A new family on Mars' would move into an existing settlement, so >>> everything you said was pretty much bullshit. >>> >> >>So how many codos are you going to build before the construction workers >>pause and the colonist move in? >> > > 'Construction workers'? We're not talking about suburban Connecticut, > chimpshit. Guys that build shit, grunt labor, whatever you want to call it, space cadet. > >> >>How does that in any way effect what you have to have other than bigger >>and more everything? >> > > It doesn't 'effect' anything, but it does 'affect' a few things, but > in ways that make it easier. You probably already have excess power, > water, and air, because you'd add that stuff in 'blocks'. That means > all you have to do is (potentially) dig a hole, drop an inflatable in, > blow it up, connect the couplings, and cover it all back up with dirt. Yes, just like WWII where all we had to do was beat the Nazi army and navy. > >>>>>> >>>>>>Haul in many tons of technology, materials, tools, food, oxygen, water >>>>>>and repair parts by some means. >>>>>> >>>>>>While working in pressure suits... >>>>>> >>>>>>Install power system. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Self-contained. No 'installation' required. >>>> >>>>So it it going to get out of the transport vehicle, site itself, then >>>>connect itself, no assembly required? >>>> >>> >>> Plugs are 'old technology', chimp. I'm sure even you can operate >>> them. You know, if you would READ the things you're pointed to rather >>> than trying to construct a case for why they don't apply you would not >>> make such stupid statements. >> >>So it it going to get out of the transport vehicle, site itself, then >>connect itself, no assembly required? >> > > Again, you should have read the papers I gave you pointers to instead > of just throwing up objections and excuses for why you don't think > they apply because they don't talk about dogs and diapers. Of course > it's going to do all that but 'connect itself'. Do you never actually > read what is said to you? I suspect your average Mars colonist can > handle hooking up a few fittings. > > Go back and read the Mars Reference Architecture (no, really read it > this time). In situ fuel production that starts years before humans > arrive. Yes, it's going to get out of the transport vehicle, cite > itself, etc. No assembly required. > > Ditto with power, except the people will have to run some cables once > they get there. Reactor lands itself several hundred meters from > where the habitat will be. Yes, it's going to get out of the > transport vehicle, cite itself, etc. When the habitat is in place, > plug in power. Most people that cite themselves are nuts. > > You wouldn't say nearly so many stupid things, Jim, if you ACTUALLY > READ WHAT PEOPLE WRITE AND WHAT THEY POINT YOU TO. > >> >>> >>>>>> >>>>>>Put up a radiation sheilded structure or bury a non-shielded staructure. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> In other words, 'dig a hole'. >>>> >>>>Yes, a very big hole, put your shelter in in, and cover it up, all >>>>while in a pressure suit. >>>> >>> >>> Digging holes is 'old technology'. >> >>Not on Mars unless you are going to have Chinese workers in pressure >>suits. >> > > How long have we been digging holes, Jim? Here, educate yourself so > you can try to stop saying so much stupid shit: > > http://www.ritchiewiki.com/wiki/index.php/Excavation > > We've had excavating machinery and explosives for over a century. It's > 19th century technology, chimp. Of course we'll use more compact and > modern equipment on Mars, but it's still simple stuff. Yeah, sure, space cadet. > >>>>> All of the following is pretty much also self-contained and automated, >>>>> so all your 'install' and 'set up' is pretty much non-existent. >>>> >>>>Utter nonsense. >>>> >>> >>> Good of you to label your following output, but it wasn't necessary. >> >>Nope, the utter nonsese is your hand waving away the complexity of it all. >> > > There is no 'complexity of it all' except in your obstructionist mind. Yeah, sure, space cadet. > >>>> >>>>None that stuff is going to get out of the transport vehicle, site >>>>itself, then connect itself, no assembly required. >>>> >>> >>> Chimp, you know where you want to put it (the analog to your 'pick a >>> place with forests and water'), so you land it there. Sited. Yes, it >>> will 'unload itself'. Out of the transport vehicle. As for your >>> "connect itself", you're just being intellectually dishonest. I said >>> you'd have to plug in power and water conduits (also oxygen). Perhaps >>> that's too challenging for you, but most of us can handle plugging >>> things in. >> >>Yeah, sure, space cadet. >> > > You never actually read ANYTHING, do you, chimpshit? Of course not, space cadet. > >> >>Why would a power system have wheels and be able to drive itself, space >>cadet? >> > > Who said it had to, chimpshit? Go read the Mars Reference Mission > again (no, REALLY read it and see how the power systems work). > >> >>What if the ground is uneven and the slightest bit rocky, space cadet? >> > > Self-leveling jacks, chimpshit. OLD technology. > >> >>Oh, I know, the autonomous bull dozer rolls out first and levels everything. >> > > Yes, as usual you know all sorts of stupid shit that you make up. > >>>>>> >>>>>>Install pressurization system with oxygen tanks and CO2 scrubbers. >>>>>> >>>>>>Install water tanks and plumbing system with toilets and refuse system. >>>>>> >>>>>>Install heating system. >>>>>> >>>>>>Install water recyling system and refuse to fertilizer system. >>>>>> >>>>>>Set up system to generate oxygen from rocks and pipe it into the structue. >>>>>> >>>>>>Set up system to mine ice, melt it, purify it, and pipe it into the >>>>>>structure tanks. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> So to this point your 'install' and 'set up' amounts to plugging in >>>>> some power and water conduits. >>>> >>>>Site leveling, movement, and connections at the minimum assuming >>>>everything is pre assembled, all while in a pressure suit. >>>> >>> >>> You don't need to do 'site leveling'. The automated equipment is >>> self-leveling. You need to plug some connectors together. I can >>> believe that's too hard for you, but then we'll be sending normal >>> human beings to Mars, not you. >> >>Yeah, sure, space cadet. >> > > Indeed, chimpshit. > >> >>And the AI that drives the water plant also makes a good cup of Earl >>Grey. >> > > You don't 'drive' anywhere, chimpshit. You just drop the stuff where > you want it in the first place. Pick up the trasport rocket and shake... > And even if you do have to 'drive' it, you know we have autonomous > vehicles already, right? And we already have remote operated vehicles > on Mars (and that gets a lot easier once you take the lightspeed delay > out by actually being on site). > >>>>> >>>>> What follows only applies if you intend to farm. Jim may not be >>>>> aware, but we've moved away from agrarian societies over the last >>>>> several centuries. >>>> >>>>The space cadet may not be aware, but we moved away from agrarian societies >>>>at the end of the 19th century when farm machinery was invented and >>>>farming became much less labor intensive. >>>> >>> >>> The chimpshit may not be aware, but we have all sorts of agricultural >>> methods that have been developed since then and it probably hasn't >>> occurred to him that "less labor intensive" is what I'm talking about >>> and he's objecting to as not possible. >>> >> >>There go those voices in your head again, space cadet, I never said >>anything about not possible. >> > > Oh, I see now, chimpshit. All your made up barriers are to > demonstrate how EASY it is. Wow, how could we have missed that? YOU keep saying I said impossible, which I have never said, space cadet. >> >>>>The space cadet may not be aware, but the priorities on Mars would be >>>>to ensure a constant supply of air, water, and food, in that order. >>>> >>> >>> The chimpshit may not be aware, but the only one of those that is even >>> slightly complicated is the last one (and only because of the space >>> required). The chimpshit may also not realize that since you bring >>> years worth of food with you when you come, you have time to work on >>> the whole 'local food production' problem. It's not like you have to >>> solve it next Tuesday. >>> >> >>There go those voices in your head again, space cadet, I never said >>anything about next Tuesday. >> > > Oh, I see now, chimpshit. All your made up barriers are to > demonstrate how EASY it is. Wow, how could we have missed that? Because you are a starry eyed space cadet. > >>> >>>>>> >>>>>>Set up pressurized environment to grow food and connect to the power, >>>>>>water, and oxygen system. >>>>>> >>>>>>Plant seeds. >>>>>> >>>>>>While waiting for the first crop, eat the tons of provisions you brought >>>>>>with you. >>>>>> >>>>>>Prey nothing breaks and if it does that you have a repair part. >>>>>> >>>>>>The oldest technology you have is mid 20th century. >>>>>> >>>>>>Everything you have is made by machines in factories. >>>>>> >>>>>>The raw materials for the things you have had to be gathered from all >>>>>>over the Earth. >>>>>> >>>>>>Aluminum, for example, comes from Australia, Brazil, China, India, Guinea, >>>>>>Indonesia, Jamaica, Russia and Suriname, but not Pittsburg. >>>>>> >>>>>>The lowest technology items you have are your aluminum alloy cooking utensils. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> You can't cook in cast iron anymore? Wow, who knew? >>>> >>>>Sure you can, but only an idiot would chose cast iron over aluminum for >>>>Mars if for no other reason than the weight penalty. >>>> >>> >>> When you're moving a hundred tonnes at a time, is that really an >>> issue? I don't think so, but of course Jimp The Chimp needed to find >>> a barrier to throw up... >> >>Sure it is an issue, space cadet, everything will be optimized to be as >>light as possible while maintaining functionality. >> > > Why? You only need to do that if boost is expensive and rare. Nope, even if cheap you want to optimize the total amount of crap you can send at once. > >> >>To do otherwise is blazingly stupid even for you. >> > > No, thinking that's necessary is blazingly stupid. No wonder you > cannot conceive of how a Mars colony would work. Sure I can conceive of how a Mars colony would work, what I can't conceive is how it would ever be paid for. >> >>Do you think all the structures will be built of steel for cost or >>aluminum for weight? >> > > I think that's a blazingly stupid question. The answer is 'neither, > and not for either of those reasons'. Blow up dolls do not solve all problems, space cadet. -- Jim Pennino
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-14 20:23 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <ikk0hb9rvffcg8a9ko4kneqcuitf13dvd6@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #570619 |
jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote:
>> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>>
>>>In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>At first I was going to respond to the whole thing then I realized most
>>>>>>>of it was idiocy like not knowing how disease spreads and denial of
>>>>>>>all the scholarly work that says there was a pre-columbian population
>>>>>>>of 50 million to 100 million, 80 o 90 percent of which were killed
>>>>>>>by European diseseses.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So you noticed your own delusions.
>>>>>
>>>>>No, I quoted three scholarly sources, all of which said essentially
>>>>>the same thing.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I don't believe I am derided in any of your 'scholarly sources' unless
>>>> you wrote them yourself.
>>>>
>>>
>>>No, but you certainly are contradicted.
>>>
>>
>> And how is that, chimp? What did I write (not what you read, what I
>> wrote) that they 'contradict'.
>>
>
>That the indiginous peoples were not wiped out by European diseases ...
>
Not what I said. Go read it again.
>
>... and that there were few people in pre-columbian Americas.
>
Not what I said. Go read it again.
>
>Why ask such a silly question when you said it several times?
>
Because I knew when you said it that what you came back with wouldn't
be what I said. You really don't handle English very well at all, do
you? Let me help you out just a bit.
What I said was something like "many of the native peoples' died
before they ever met a European". Note that that is nothing like what
you claim I said, unless you believe that there is some reason that
disease cannot travel from native to native without an intervening
European contact.
What I said was "European explorers were surprised at how sparse the
native population was". Note that this is not the same thing AT ALL
as "there were few people in pre-columbian Americas". In fact, it's
talking about POST Columbian America.
While there is no evidence I am aware of other than rough coincidence
in time that the disease(s) were from Europeans, let's pretend for a
moment that that's correct. Let's examine how what I said is exactly
correct and how you, in your eagerness to accuse me of saying things I
never said, actually read things I didn't write.
Diseases move faster than settlers or even explorers, Chimp. So we
get that initial European contact. One or more natives get something
that they have no resistance to. They go back to their villages and
expose a bunch of other natives (who have never met a European). Some
of those folks travel in various directions (a relatively large
population is going to mean travel and trade) and expose yet more
natives who perhaps have not even HEARD of Europeans except as
rumours. This goes on. 90% of the native population expires, most of
them never having met, seen, or even heard of Europeans.
Meanwhile, Europeans, who are only present in small numbers, start to
explore and/or settle. By the time they get any appreciable distance
from the site of initial contact, much of the native population has
died off. The Europeans are surprised at how sparsely populated the
land is, not knowing that 90% of the people who lived there not all
that long before have disappeared.
And there's the problem, Jim. You are so eager to pick fights with
people that you read things they've never written in order to do so.
That's well beyond merely being the asshole you present as and into
pathological mental illness. And it's always the other person's
fault, whether it's you misreading something, you having some problem
with your newsfeed, or anything else. It's NEVER Jimp.
Well, this was all you. You made shit up I never said and then
proceeded to act as if I'd said it and insult me because YOU were
stupid.
>
>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Then I noticed you snipped the important part, so I'll just repost that part.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You mean the biased part that misstates things?
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>I know a realist description bothers you space cadet.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I know you wouldn't know a 'realistic description' if it came up and
>>>> bit you, chimpshit.
>>>>
>>>
>>>I know you can't resist spewing bile and insults.
>>>
>>
>> No doubt you 'know' all sorts of rather silly things. Why, if you
>> didn't, you wouldn't be able to maintain your "I'm right and everyone
>> else is wrong and mean to me" attitude.
>>
>
>Gaffaw.
>
See above. And below.
>>
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Establish a new family on Earth:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Already responded to this part, but I'll add one addition.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Load the horse drawn wagon the the wife, kids, hand tools, initial
>>>>>>>provisions for the trip, some caged chickens and a sack of seeds.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Find a nice spot near tree and water sources.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Plant seeds, cut timber to build cabin,d dig a well so as to not have
>>>>>>>to walk as far to get water, build a chicken coop, take shelter in the
>>>>>>>wagon until the cabin is built.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Dig a hole and build an outhouse so you don't have to walk to the woods
>>>>>>>to take a dump. If you forgot to bring a plow, make a wooden one.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>While waiting for the first crop, forage for wild vegetables, fish, and
>>>>>>>hunt game and eat some of the eggs from the chickens.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And probably starve to death if that's your mechanism rather than
>>>>>> having supplies on hand.
>>>>>
>>>>>What part of forage for wild vegetables, fish, and hunt game did you
>>>>>not understand?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Which part of "not the Garden of Eden" did you not understand?
>>>
>>>What part of forage for wild vegetables, fish, and hunt game did you
>>>not understand?
>>>
>>
>> What part of "not the Garden of Eden" did you not understand?
>
>What part of forage for wild vegetables, fish, and hunt game did you
>not understand?
>
Which part of Jamestown damned near starved to death and could do any
of that for themselves but needed natives to do it for them?
>
>>
>>>
>>>While such activities may be far beyond your ability, most people
>>>before the 20th century were very adept at it.
>>>
>>
>> Yeah, that's why Jamestown had to trade with the natives for food. And
>> at that they damned near starved to death one year (well, a lot of
>> them DID starve to death).
>>
>
>Yep, the stupid Europeans didn't properly tend to their fields and
>had to go begging for help from the Bronze Age savages who had a
>surplus of food.
>
Nope. Jesus Christ, man, the cite is RIGHT DOWN THERE. Read it and
stop saying ignorant shite.
>
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starving_Time
>>
>>>>>>>If you see any Indians, don't piss them off; try to make friends.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>All of the tecnonology, other than firearms, is well over a thousand
>>>>>>>years old.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>All the stuff you have is hand made and most of it is made of wood.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Except for all the essential tools, which were high tech items in the
>>>>>> day.
>>>>>
>>>>>Nope, the axe, saw, plow, etc. are very, very old technology.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> But the ones being carried were not, necessarily. The automobile is
>>>> 'old technology', but it's changed a lot over the years.
>>>
>>>Sure they were old technology, space cadet.
>>>
>>
>> Wrong, chimpshit.
>>
>>>The last improvements were made when they started to be made of iron.
>>>
>>
>> Wrong.
>>
>
>Just saying wrong does not make it so.
>
No, it BEING wrong makes it so.
>
>Name any improvement to the axe since when they started to be made of iron.
>
>The axe is a Stone Age tool.
>
I point out you are on your ass with regard to plows so now you need
to pick a fight over axes. Pathetic, Jim...
>>>
>>>You are grasping at straws.
>>>
>>
>> Read this and stop being so ignorant. Vast improvements to plows in
>> colonial times.
>>
>> http://www.lib.niu.edu/2001/iht810102.html
>>
>
>Yep, in late colonial times.
>
It's just hopeless talking to you, Jim. Reality just never really
penetrates, does it? You start from 'stone age no improvements' and
then when you're proven wrong it's like, "Well, it didn't happen on
TUESDAY".
>
>Now about that improvement to the axe.
>
You brought it up. What about them?
Which one do you want to talk about, the felling axe, the splitting
axe, the broad axe, the adze, the hatchet, the carpenter's axe, the
hand axe, or the mortising axe? Oh, wait. None of those were really
'stone age tools', so I guess they are ALL improvements to the axe to
suit it for various purposes. And those are just a few.
>
>>>
>>>>>>>The item with the most technology in it is a cast iron cooking pot.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Establsh a new family on Mars:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Which won't be done at all the way it was done on Earth, with one
>>>>>> individual going off by themselves. Now that I've pointed that out,
>>>>>> you'll claim that Earth colonization doesn't matter and that bringing
>>>>>> it up is stupid.
>>>>>
>>>>>It was usually groups that went off together, but upon arrival, everything
>>>>>I have said is accurate.
>>>>>
>>>>>And the title was "Establish a new family on Earth".
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 'A new family on Mars' would move into an existing settlement, so
>>>> everything you said was pretty much bullshit.
>>>>
>>>
>>>So how many codos are you going to build before the construction workers
>>>pause and the colonist move in?
>>>
>>
>> 'Construction workers'? We're not talking about suburban Connecticut,
>> chimpshit.
>>
>
>Guys that build shit, grunt labor, whatever you want to call it, space
>cadet.
>
Not required, Chimp. Shit is 'built' when it arrives (at least
initially) and you just plug it together.
>>
>>>
>>>How does that in any way effect what you have to have other than bigger
>>>and more everything?
>>>
>>
>> It doesn't 'effect' anything, but it does 'affect' a few things, but
>> in ways that make it easier. You probably already have excess power,
>> water, and air, because you'd add that stuff in 'blocks'. That means
>> all you have to do is (potentially) dig a hole, drop an inflatable in,
>> blow it up, connect the couplings, and cover it all back up with dirt.
>
>Yes, just like WWII where all we had to do was beat the Nazi army and
>navy.
>
You're hopelessly stupid.
>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Haul in many tons of technology, materials, tools, food, oxygen, water
>>>>>>>and repair parts by some means.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>While working in pressure suits...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Install power system.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Self-contained. No 'installation' required.
>>>>>
>>>>>So it it going to get out of the transport vehicle, site itself, then
>>>>>connect itself, no assembly required?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Plugs are 'old technology', chimp. I'm sure even you can operate
>>>> them. You know, if you would READ the things you're pointed to rather
>>>> than trying to construct a case for why they don't apply you would not
>>>> make such stupid statements.
>>>
>>>So it it going to get out of the transport vehicle, site itself, then
>>>connect itself, no assembly required?
>>>
>>
>> Again, you should have read the papers I gave you pointers to instead
>> of just throwing up objections and excuses for why you don't think
>> they apply because they don't talk about dogs and diapers. Of course
>> it's going to do all that but 'connect itself'. Do you never actually
>> read what is said to you? I suspect your average Mars colonist can
>> handle hooking up a few fittings.
>>
>> Go back and read the Mars Reference Architecture (no, really read it
>> this time). In situ fuel production that starts years before humans
>> arrive. Yes, it's going to get out of the transport vehicle, cite
>> itself, etc. No assembly required.
>>
>> Ditto with power, except the people will have to run some cables once
>> they get there. Reactor lands itself several hundred meters from
>> where the habitat will be. Yes, it's going to get out of the
>> transport vehicle, cite itself, etc. When the habitat is in place,
>> plug in power.
>
>Most people that cite themselves are nuts.
>
Yes, which is why I think you do it so frequently.
>>
>> You wouldn't say nearly so many stupid things, Jim, if you ACTUALLY
>> READ WHAT PEOPLE WRITE AND WHAT THEY POINT YOU TO.
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Put up a radiation sheilded structure or bury a non-shielded staructure.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In other words, 'dig a hole'.
>>>>>
>>>>>Yes, a very big hole, put your shelter in in, and cover it up, all
>>>>>while in a pressure suit.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Digging holes is 'old technology'.
>>>
>>>Not on Mars unless you are going to have Chinese workers in pressure
>>>suits.
>>>
>>
>> How long have we been digging holes, Jim? Here, educate yourself so
>> you can try to stop saying so much stupid shit:
>>
>> http://www.ritchiewiki.com/wiki/index.php/Excavation
>>
>> We've had excavating machinery and explosives for over a century. It's
>> 19th century technology, chimp. Of course we'll use more compact and
>> modern equipment on Mars, but it's still simple stuff.
>
>Yeah, sure, space cadet.
>
I'm sorry it's not simple for you, Chimp, but you're hopelessly
stupid.
>>
>>>>>> All of the following is pretty much also self-contained and automated,
>>>>>> so all your 'install' and 'set up' is pretty much non-existent.
>>>>>
>>>>>Utter nonsense.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Good of you to label your following output, but it wasn't necessary.
>>>
>>>Nope, the utter nonsese is your hand waving away the complexity of it all.
>>>
>>
>> There is no 'complexity of it all' except in your obstructionist mind.
>
>Yeah, sure, space cadet.
>
So where is this 'complexity' of which you speak? Why do I think it's
the result of the same mental processes that led you to claim I've
said things I never said?
>>
>>>>>
>>>>>None that stuff is going to get out of the transport vehicle, site
>>>>>itself, then connect itself, no assembly required.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Chimp, you know where you want to put it (the analog to your 'pick a
>>>> place with forests and water'), so you land it there. Sited. Yes, it
>>>> will 'unload itself'. Out of the transport vehicle. As for your
>>>> "connect itself", you're just being intellectually dishonest. I said
>>>> you'd have to plug in power and water conduits (also oxygen). Perhaps
>>>> that's too challenging for you, but most of us can handle plugging
>>>> things in.
>>>
>>>Yeah, sure, space cadet.
>>>
>>
>> You never actually read ANYTHING, do you, chimpshit?
>>
>
>Of course not, space cadet.
>
Yeah, and it shows. You're hopelessly stupid.
>>
>>>
>>>Why would a power system have wheels and be able to drive itself, space
>>>cadet?
>>>
>>
>> Who said it had to, chimpshit? Go read the Mars Reference Mission
>> again (no, REALLY read it and see how the power systems work).
>>
>>>
>>>What if the ground is uneven and the slightest bit rocky, space cadet?
>>>
>>
>> Self-leveling jacks, chimpshit. OLD technology.
>>
>>>
>>>Oh, I know, the autonomous bull dozer rolls out first and levels everything.
>>>
>>
>> Yes, as usual you know all sorts of stupid shit that you make up.
>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Install pressurization system with oxygen tanks and CO2 scrubbers.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Install water tanks and plumbing system with toilets and refuse system.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Install heating system.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Install water recyling system and refuse to fertilizer system.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Set up system to generate oxygen from rocks and pipe it into the structue.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Set up system to mine ice, melt it, purify it, and pipe it into the
>>>>>>>structure tanks.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So to this point your 'install' and 'set up' amounts to plugging in
>>>>>> some power and water conduits.
>>>>>
>>>>>Site leveling, movement, and connections at the minimum assuming
>>>>>everything is pre assembled, all while in a pressure suit.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> You don't need to do 'site leveling'. The automated equipment is
>>>> self-leveling. You need to plug some connectors together. I can
>>>> believe that's too hard for you, but then we'll be sending normal
>>>> human beings to Mars, not you.
>>>
>>>Yeah, sure, space cadet.
>>>
>>
>> Indeed, chimpshit.
>>
>>>
>>>And the AI that drives the water plant also makes a good cup of Earl
>>>Grey.
>>>
>>
>> You don't 'drive' anywhere, chimpshit. You just drop the stuff where
>> you want it in the first place.
>
>Pick up the trasport rocket and shake...
>
Hopelessly stupid.
>> And even if you do have to 'drive' it, you know we have autonomous
>> vehicles already, right? And we already have remote operated vehicles
>> on Mars (and that gets a lot easier once you take the lightspeed delay
>> out by actually being on site).
>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What follows only applies if you intend to farm. Jim may not be
>>>>>> aware, but we've moved away from agrarian societies over the last
>>>>>> several centuries.
>>>>>
>>>>>The space cadet may not be aware, but we moved away from agrarian societies
>>>>>at the end of the 19th century when farm machinery was invented and
>>>>>farming became much less labor intensive.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The chimpshit may not be aware, but we have all sorts of agricultural
>>>> methods that have been developed since then and it probably hasn't
>>>> occurred to him that "less labor intensive" is what I'm talking about
>>>> and he's objecting to as not possible.
>>>>
>>>
>>>There go those voices in your head again, space cadet, I never said
>>>anything about not possible.
>>>
>>
>> Oh, I see now, chimpshit. All your made up barriers are to
>> demonstrate how EASY it is. Wow, how could we have missed that?
>
>YOU keep saying I said impossible, which I have never said, space cadet.
>
YOU keep throwing up barriers to make things impossible and then when
called on your bullshit whine about how you never actually used the
word.
Hopelessly stupid.
>>>
>>>>>The space cadet may not be aware, but the priorities on Mars would be
>>>>>to ensure a constant supply of air, water, and food, in that order.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The chimpshit may not be aware, but the only one of those that is even
>>>> slightly complicated is the last one (and only because of the space
>>>> required). The chimpshit may also not realize that since you bring
>>>> years worth of food with you when you come, you have time to work on
>>>> the whole 'local food production' problem. It's not like you have to
>>>> solve it next Tuesday.
>>>>
>>>
>>>There go those voices in your head again, space cadet, I never said
>>>anything about next Tuesday.
>>>
>>
>> Oh, I see now, chimpshit. All your made up barriers are to
>> demonstrate how EASY it is. Wow, how could we have missed that?
>>
>
>Because you are a starry eyed space cadet.
>
More likely because you are a lying piece of chimpshit.
>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Set up pressurized environment to grow food and connect to the power,
>>>>>>>water, and oxygen system.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Plant seeds.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>While waiting for the first crop, eat the tons of provisions you brought
>>>>>>>with you.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Prey nothing breaks and if it does that you have a repair part.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>The oldest technology you have is mid 20th century.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Everything you have is made by machines in factories.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>The raw materials for the things you have had to be gathered from all
>>>>>>>over the Earth.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Aluminum, for example, comes from Australia, Brazil, China, India, Guinea,
>>>>>>>Indonesia, Jamaica, Russia and Suriname, but not Pittsburg.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>The lowest technology items you have are your aluminum alloy cooking utensils.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You can't cook in cast iron anymore? Wow, who knew?
>>>>>
>>>>>Sure you can, but only an idiot would chose cast iron over aluminum for
>>>>>Mars if for no other reason than the weight penalty.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> When you're moving a hundred tonnes at a time, is that really an
>>>> issue? I don't think so, but of course Jimp The Chimp needed to find
>>>> a barrier to throw up...
>>>
>>>Sure it is an issue, space cadet, everything will be optimized to be as
>>>light as possible while maintaining functionality.
>>>
>>
>> Why? You only need to do that if boost is expensive and rare.
>
>Nope, even if cheap you want to optimize the total amount of crap you
>can send at once.
>
Let me make it simple for you. Sometimes the payload is weight
limited and you care about that. Sometimes the payload is volume
limited and you care about that. Sometimes you don't have a full load
either by weight or by volume, so you get to throw in shit and don't
care what it weighs or about space or about both.
Go look up GAScan or CubeSat or any of a number of essentially 'free
riders' even given the limited and expensive boosters currently in
use. Now scale all that up to 100 tonne payloads and frequent
launches.
You still won't get it, of course, but that's because you're
hopelessly stupid.
>
>>
>>>
>>>To do otherwise is blazingly stupid even for you.
>>>
>>
>> No, thinking that's necessary is blazingly stupid. No wonder you
>> cannot conceive of how a Mars colony would work.
>>
>
>Sure I can conceive of how a Mars colony would work, what I can't
>conceive is how it would ever be paid for.
>
That's because you're hopelessly stupid.
>>>
>>>Do you think all the structures will be built of steel for cost or
>>>aluminum for weight?
>>>
>>
>> I think that's a blazingly stupid question. The answer is 'neither,
>> and not for either of those reasons'.
>>
>
>Blow up dolls do not solve all problems, space cadet.
>
But they solve a lot of them, chimpshit. Your question was "all the
structures". ALL the structures won't be built out of steel or
aluminum or even kevlar. A lot of them WILL be built out of kevlar,
though, and the others will be built out of whatever is required.
Wow, you are spectacularly and hopelessly stupid.
--
"Ordinarily he is insane. But he has lucid moments when he is
only stupid."
-- Heinrich Heine
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-15 04:35 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <0l76uc-1g7.ln1@mail.specsol.com> |
| In reply to | #570632 |
In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote: > jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: > >>In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote: >>> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: >>> >>>>In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>At first I was going to respond to the whole thing then I realized most >>>>>>>>of it was idiocy like not knowing how disease spreads and denial of >>>>>>>>all the scholarly work that says there was a pre-columbian population >>>>>>>>of 50 million to 100 million, 80 o 90 percent of which were killed >>>>>>>>by European diseseses. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> So you noticed your own delusions. >>>>>> >>>>>>No, I quoted three scholarly sources, all of which said essentially >>>>>>the same thing. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I don't believe I am derided in any of your 'scholarly sources' unless >>>>> you wrote them yourself. >>>>> >>>> >>>>No, but you certainly are contradicted. >>>> >>> >>> And how is that, chimp? What did I write (not what you read, what I >>> wrote) that they 'contradict'. >>> >> >>That the indiginous peoples were not wiped out by European diseases ... >> > > Not what I said. Go read it again. Yes, you did, several times. >> >>... and that there were few people in pre-columbian Americas. >> > > Not what I said. Go read it again. Yes, you did, several times. >> >>Why ask such a silly question when you said it several times? >> > > Because I knew when you said it that what you came back with wouldn't > be what I said. You really don't handle English very well at all, do > you? Let me help you out just a bit. > > What I said was something like "many of the native peoples' died > before they ever met a European". Weasle wording; the mass die off started with the Europeans. > Note that that is nothing like what > you claim I said, unless you believe that there is some reason that > disease cannot travel from native to native without an intervening > European contact. The diseases that caused the mass die off were non-existant in the Americas before the Europeans arrived. > > What I said was "European explorers were surprised at how sparse the > native population was". Note that this is not the same thing AT ALL > as "there were few people in pre-columbian Americas". In fact, it's > talking about POST Columbian America. Which if flat wrong; European explorers were surprised at how many people there were. More weasel words. The explorers were the start of post Columbian America. > While there is no evidence I am aware of other than rough coincidence > in time that the disease(s) were from Europeans, let's pretend for a > moment that that's correct. Let's examine how what I said is exactly > correct and how you, in your eagerness to accuse me of saying things I > never said, actually read things I didn't write. You mean other than they were non-existant until the first Europeans arrived? > Diseases move faster than settlers or even explorers, Chimp. So we > get that initial European contact. One or more natives get something > that they have no resistance to. They go back to their villages and > expose a bunch of other natives (who have never met a European). Some > of those folks travel in various directions (a relatively large > population is going to mean travel and trade) and expose yet more > natives who perhaps have not even HEARD of Europeans except as > rumours. This goes on. 90% of the native population expires, most of > them never having met, seen, or even heard of Europeans. You are the one that kept babbling about MEETING a Eurpean, not me. All I said was the Europeans brought the diseases. > Meanwhile, Europeans, who are only present in small numbers, start to > explore and/or settle. By the time they get any appreciable distance > from the site of initial contact, much of the native population has > died off. The Europeans are surprised at how sparsely populated the > land is, not knowing that 90% of the people who lived there not all > that long before have disappeared. Finally got something correct. > And there's the problem, Jim. You are so eager to pick fights with > people that you read things they've never written in order to do so. > That's well beyond merely being the asshole you present as and into > pathological mental illness. And it's always the other person's > fault, whether it's you misreading something, you having some problem > with your newsfeed, or anything else. It's NEVER Jimp. Blow it out your ass, lier. > Well, this was all you. You made shit up I never said and then > proceeded to act as if I'd said it and insult me because YOU were > stupid. Nope, you are denying what you said several times now that you are backed against the wall. > >> >>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Then I noticed you snipped the important part, so I'll just repost that part. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> You mean the biased part that misstates things? >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>I know a realist description bothers you space cadet. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I know you wouldn't know a 'realistic description' if it came up and >>>>> bit you, chimpshit. >>>>> >>>> >>>>I know you can't resist spewing bile and insults. >>>> >>> >>> No doubt you 'know' all sorts of rather silly things. Why, if you >>> didn't, you wouldn't be able to maintain your "I'm right and everyone >>> else is wrong and mean to me" attitude. >>> >> >>Gaffaw. >> > > See above. And below. > >>> >>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Establish a new family on Earth: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Already responded to this part, but I'll add one addition. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Load the horse drawn wagon the the wife, kids, hand tools, initial >>>>>>>>provisions for the trip, some caged chickens and a sack of seeds. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Find a nice spot near tree and water sources. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Plant seeds, cut timber to build cabin,d dig a well so as to not have >>>>>>>>to walk as far to get water, build a chicken coop, take shelter in the >>>>>>>>wagon until the cabin is built. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Dig a hole and build an outhouse so you don't have to walk to the woods >>>>>>>>to take a dump. If you forgot to bring a plow, make a wooden one. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>While waiting for the first crop, forage for wild vegetables, fish, and >>>>>>>>hunt game and eat some of the eggs from the chickens. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> And probably starve to death if that's your mechanism rather than >>>>>>> having supplies on hand. >>>>>> >>>>>>What part of forage for wild vegetables, fish, and hunt game did you >>>>>>not understand? >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Which part of "not the Garden of Eden" did you not understand? >>>> >>>>What part of forage for wild vegetables, fish, and hunt game did you >>>>not understand? >>>> >>> >>> What part of "not the Garden of Eden" did you not understand? >> >>What part of forage for wild vegetables, fish, and hunt game did you >>not understand? >> > > Which part of Jamestown damned near starved to death and could do any > of that for themselves but needed natives to do it for them? What part of stupid and too busy looking for gold? >>>> >>>>While such activities may be far beyond your ability, most people >>>>before the 20th century were very adept at it. >>>> >>> >>> Yeah, that's why Jamestown had to trade with the natives for food. And >>> at that they damned near starved to death one year (well, a lot of >>> them DID starve to death). >>> >> >>Yep, the stupid Europeans didn't properly tend to their fields and >>had to go begging for help from the Bronze Age savages who had a >>surplus of food. >> > > Nope. Jesus Christ, man, the cite is RIGHT DOWN THERE. Read it and > stop saying ignorant shite. So how is it that the Bronze Age savages had a surplus of food when the Europeans had a deficit? >>> >>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starving_Time >>> >>>>>>>>If you see any Indians, don't piss them off; try to make friends. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>All of the tecnonology, other than firearms, is well over a thousand >>>>>>>>years old. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>All the stuff you have is hand made and most of it is made of wood. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Except for all the essential tools, which were high tech items in the >>>>>>> day. >>>>>> >>>>>>Nope, the axe, saw, plow, etc. are very, very old technology. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> But the ones being carried were not, necessarily. The automobile is >>>>> 'old technology', but it's changed a lot over the years. >>>> >>>>Sure they were old technology, space cadet. >>>> >>> >>> Wrong, chimpshit. >>> >>>>The last improvements were made when they started to be made of iron. >>>> >>> >>> Wrong. >>> >> >>Just saying wrong does not make it so. >> > > No, it BEING wrong makes it so. > >> >>Name any improvement to the axe since when they started to be made of iron. >> >>The axe is a Stone Age tool. >> > > I point out you are on your ass with regard to plows so now you need > to pick a fight over axes. Pathetic, Jim... Very minor improvements in plows during the colonial period, still waiting for ANY improvements in the axe. > >>>> >>>>You are grasping at straws. >>>> >>> >>> Read this and stop being so ignorant. Vast improvements to plows in >>> colonial times. >>> >>> http://www.lib.niu.edu/2001/iht810102.html >>> >> >>Yep, in late colonial times. >> > > It's just hopeless talking to you, Jim. Reality just never really > penetrates, does it? You start from 'stone age no improvements' and > then when you're proven wrong it's like, "Well, it didn't happen on > TUESDAY". Agin minor improvements, still waiting for improvements in the axe, then we can go on to all the other tools. >> >>Now about that improvement to the axe. >> > > You brought it up. What about them? > > Which one do you want to talk about, the felling axe, the splitting > axe, the broad axe, the adze, the hatchet, the carpenter's axe, the > hand axe, or the mortising axe? Oh, wait. None of those were really > 'stone age tools', so I guess they are ALL improvements to the axe to > suit it for various purposes. And those are just a few. Time of invention for each? >>>> >>>>>>>>The item with the most technology in it is a cast iron cooking pot. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Establsh a new family on Mars: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Which won't be done at all the way it was done on Earth, with one >>>>>>> individual going off by themselves. Now that I've pointed that out, >>>>>>> you'll claim that Earth colonization doesn't matter and that bringing >>>>>>> it up is stupid. >>>>>> >>>>>>It was usually groups that went off together, but upon arrival, everything >>>>>>I have said is accurate. >>>>>> >>>>>>And the title was "Establish a new family on Earth". >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 'A new family on Mars' would move into an existing settlement, so >>>>> everything you said was pretty much bullshit. >>>>> >>>> >>>>So how many codos are you going to build before the construction workers >>>>pause and the colonist move in? >>>> >>> >>> 'Construction workers'? We're not talking about suburban Connecticut, >>> chimpshit. >>> >> >>Guys that build shit, grunt labor, whatever you want to call it, space >>cadet. >> > > Not required, Chimp. Shit is 'built' when it arrives (at least > initially) and you just plug it together. Yeah, sure, space cadet. >>> >>>> >>>>How does that in any way effect what you have to have other than bigger >>>>and more everything? >>>> >>> >>> It doesn't 'effect' anything, but it does 'affect' a few things, but >>> in ways that make it easier. You probably already have excess power, >>> water, and air, because you'd add that stuff in 'blocks'. That means >>> all you have to do is (potentially) dig a hole, drop an inflatable in, >>> blow it up, connect the couplings, and cover it all back up with dirt. >> >>Yes, just like WWII where all we had to do was beat the Nazi army and >>navy. >> > > You're hopelessly stupid. You're totally starry eyed. >>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Haul in many tons of technology, materials, tools, food, oxygen, water >>>>>>>>and repair parts by some means. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>While working in pressure suits... >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Install power system. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Self-contained. No 'installation' required. >>>>>> >>>>>>So it it going to get out of the transport vehicle, site itself, then >>>>>>connect itself, no assembly required? >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Plugs are 'old technology', chimp. I'm sure even you can operate >>>>> them. You know, if you would READ the things you're pointed to rather >>>>> than trying to construct a case for why they don't apply you would not >>>>> make such stupid statements. >>>> >>>>So it it going to get out of the transport vehicle, site itself, then >>>>connect itself, no assembly required? >>>> >>> >>> Again, you should have read the papers I gave you pointers to instead >>> of just throwing up objections and excuses for why you don't think >>> they apply because they don't talk about dogs and diapers. Of course >>> it's going to do all that but 'connect itself'. Do you never actually >>> read what is said to you? I suspect your average Mars colonist can >>> handle hooking up a few fittings. >>> >>> Go back and read the Mars Reference Architecture (no, really read it >>> this time). In situ fuel production that starts years before humans >>> arrive. Yes, it's going to get out of the transport vehicle, cite >>> itself, etc. No assembly required. >>> >>> Ditto with power, except the people will have to run some cables once >>> they get there. Reactor lands itself several hundred meters from >>> where the habitat will be. Yes, it's going to get out of the >>> transport vehicle, cite itself, etc. When the habitat is in place, >>> plug in power. >> >>Most people that cite themselves are nuts. >> > > Yes, which is why I think you do it so frequently. See your text above, fool. > >>> >>> You wouldn't say nearly so many stupid things, Jim, if you ACTUALLY >>> READ WHAT PEOPLE WRITE AND WHAT THEY POINT YOU TO. >>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Put up a radiation sheilded structure or bury a non-shielded staructure. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> In other words, 'dig a hole'. >>>>>> >>>>>>Yes, a very big hole, put your shelter in in, and cover it up, all >>>>>>while in a pressure suit. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Digging holes is 'old technology'. >>>> >>>>Not on Mars unless you are going to have Chinese workers in pressure >>>>suits. >>>> >>> >>> How long have we been digging holes, Jim? Here, educate yourself so >>> you can try to stop saying so much stupid shit: >>> >>> http://www.ritchiewiki.com/wiki/index.php/Excavation >>> >>> We've had excavating machinery and explosives for over a century. It's >>> 19th century technology, chimp. Of course we'll use more compact and >>> modern equipment on Mars, but it's still simple stuff. >> >>Yeah, sure, space cadet. >> > > I'm sorry it's not simple for you, Chimp, but you're hopelessly > stupid. Yeah, sure, space cadet. > >>> >>>>>>> All of the following is pretty much also self-contained and automated, >>>>>>> so all your 'install' and 'set up' is pretty much non-existent. >>>>>> >>>>>>Utter nonsense. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Good of you to label your following output, but it wasn't necessary. >>>> >>>>Nope, the utter nonsese is your hand waving away the complexity of it all. >>>> >>> >>> There is no 'complexity of it all' except in your obstructionist mind. >> >>Yeah, sure, space cadet. >> > > So where is this 'complexity' of which you speak? Why do I think it's > the result of the same mental processes that led you to claim I've > said things I never said? Yeah, sure, space cadet. >>> >>>>>> >>>>>>None that stuff is going to get out of the transport vehicle, site >>>>>>itself, then connect itself, no assembly required. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Chimp, you know where you want to put it (the analog to your 'pick a >>>>> place with forests and water'), so you land it there. Sited. Yes, it >>>>> will 'unload itself'. Out of the transport vehicle. As for your >>>>> "connect itself", you're just being intellectually dishonest. I said >>>>> you'd have to plug in power and water conduits (also oxygen). Perhaps >>>>> that's too challenging for you, but most of us can handle plugging >>>>> things in. >>>> >>>>Yeah, sure, space cadet. >>>> >>> >>> You never actually read ANYTHING, do you, chimpshit? >>> >> >>Of course not, space cadet. >> > > Yeah, and it shows. You're hopelessly stupid. Yeah, sure, space cadet. >>> >>>> >>>>Why would a power system have wheels and be able to drive itself, space >>>>cadet? >>>> >>> >>> Who said it had to, chimpshit? Go read the Mars Reference Mission >>> again (no, REALLY read it and see how the power systems work). >>> >>>> >>>>What if the ground is uneven and the slightest bit rocky, space cadet? >>>> >>> >>> Self-leveling jacks, chimpshit. OLD technology. >>> >>>> >>>>Oh, I know, the autonomous bull dozer rolls out first and levels everything. >>>> >>> >>> Yes, as usual you know all sorts of stupid shit that you make up. >>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Install pressurization system with oxygen tanks and CO2 scrubbers. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Install water tanks and plumbing system with toilets and refuse system. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Install heating system. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Install water recyling system and refuse to fertilizer system. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Set up system to generate oxygen from rocks and pipe it into the structue. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Set up system to mine ice, melt it, purify it, and pipe it into the >>>>>>>>structure tanks. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> So to this point your 'install' and 'set up' amounts to plugging in >>>>>>> some power and water conduits. >>>>>> >>>>>>Site leveling, movement, and connections at the minimum assuming >>>>>>everything is pre assembled, all while in a pressure suit. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> You don't need to do 'site leveling'. The automated equipment is >>>>> self-leveling. You need to plug some connectors together. I can >>>>> believe that's too hard for you, but then we'll be sending normal >>>>> human beings to Mars, not you. >>>> >>>>Yeah, sure, space cadet. >>>> >>> >>> Indeed, chimpshit. >>> >>>> >>>>And the AI that drives the water plant also makes a good cup of Earl >>>>Grey. >>>> >>> >>> You don't 'drive' anywhere, chimpshit. You just drop the stuff where >>> you want it in the first place. >> >>Pick up the trasport rocket and shake... >> > > Hopelessly stupid. Yeah, sure, space cadet. > >>> And even if you do have to 'drive' it, you know we have autonomous >>> vehicles already, right? And we already have remote operated vehicles >>> on Mars (and that gets a lot easier once you take the lightspeed delay >>> out by actually being on site). >>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> What follows only applies if you intend to farm. Jim may not be >>>>>>> aware, but we've moved away from agrarian societies over the last >>>>>>> several centuries. >>>>>> >>>>>>The space cadet may not be aware, but we moved away from agrarian societies >>>>>>at the end of the 19th century when farm machinery was invented and >>>>>>farming became much less labor intensive. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> The chimpshit may not be aware, but we have all sorts of agricultural >>>>> methods that have been developed since then and it probably hasn't >>>>> occurred to him that "less labor intensive" is what I'm talking about >>>>> and he's objecting to as not possible. >>>>> >>>> >>>>There go those voices in your head again, space cadet, I never said >>>>anything about not possible. >>>> >>> >>> Oh, I see now, chimpshit. All your made up barriers are to >>> demonstrate how EASY it is. Wow, how could we have missed that? >> >>YOU keep saying I said impossible, which I have never said, space cadet. >> > > YOU keep throwing up barriers to make things impossible and then when > called on your bullshit whine about how you never actually used the > word. Yeah, sure, space cadet. > > Hopelessly stupid. > >>>> >>>>>>The space cadet may not be aware, but the priorities on Mars would be >>>>>>to ensure a constant supply of air, water, and food, in that order. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> The chimpshit may not be aware, but the only one of those that is even >>>>> slightly complicated is the last one (and only because of the space >>>>> required). The chimpshit may also not realize that since you bring >>>>> years worth of food with you when you come, you have time to work on >>>>> the whole 'local food production' problem. It's not like you have to >>>>> solve it next Tuesday. >>>>> >>>> >>>>There go those voices in your head again, space cadet, I never said >>>>anything about next Tuesday. >>>> >>> >>> Oh, I see now, chimpshit. All your made up barriers are to >>> demonstrate how EASY it is. Wow, how could we have missed that? >>> >> >>Because you are a starry eyed space cadet. >> > > More likely because you are a lying piece of chimpshit. Yeah, sure, space cadet bully. > >>> >>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Set up pressurized environment to grow food and connect to the power, >>>>>>>>water, and oxygen system. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Plant seeds. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>While waiting for the first crop, eat the tons of provisions you brought >>>>>>>>with you. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Prey nothing breaks and if it does that you have a repair part. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>The oldest technology you have is mid 20th century. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Everything you have is made by machines in factories. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>The raw materials for the things you have had to be gathered from all >>>>>>>>over the Earth. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Aluminum, for example, comes from Australia, Brazil, China, India, Guinea, >>>>>>>>Indonesia, Jamaica, Russia and Suriname, but not Pittsburg. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>The lowest technology items you have are your aluminum alloy cooking utensils. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> You can't cook in cast iron anymore? Wow, who knew? >>>>>> >>>>>>Sure you can, but only an idiot would chose cast iron over aluminum for >>>>>>Mars if for no other reason than the weight penalty. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> When you're moving a hundred tonnes at a time, is that really an >>>>> issue? I don't think so, but of course Jimp The Chimp needed to find >>>>> a barrier to throw up... >>>> >>>>Sure it is an issue, space cadet, everything will be optimized to be as >>>>light as possible while maintaining functionality. >>>> >>> >>> Why? You only need to do that if boost is expensive and rare. >> >>Nope, even if cheap you want to optimize the total amount of crap you >>can send at once. >> > > Let me make it simple for you. Sometimes the payload is weight > limited and you care about that. Sometimes the payload is volume > limited and you care about that. Sometimes you don't have a full load > either by weight or by volume, so you get to throw in shit and don't > care what it weighs or about space or about both. > > Go look up GAScan or CubeSat or any of a number of essentially 'free > riders' even given the limited and expensive boosters currently in > use. Now scale all that up to 100 tonne payloads and frequent > launches. Let me make it simple for you. If you are setting up permanent living quarters on Mars, for any reason or goal, you want as much shit as you can get. You still won't get it, of course, but that's because you're hopelessly starry eyed. > >> >>> >>>> >>>>To do otherwise is blazingly stupid even for you. >>>> >>> >>> No, thinking that's necessary is blazingly stupid. No wonder you >>> cannot conceive of how a Mars colony would work. >>> >> >>Sure I can conceive of how a Mars colony would work, what I can't >>conceive is how it would ever be paid for. >> > > That's because you're hopelessly stupid. That's because you're hopelessly starry eyed. >>>> >>>>Do you think all the structures will be built of steel for cost or >>>>aluminum for weight? >>>> >>> >>> I think that's a blazingly stupid question. The answer is 'neither, >>> and not for either of those reasons'. >>> >> >>Blow up dolls do not solve all problems, space cadet. >> > > But they solve a lot of them, chimpshit. Your question was "all the > structures". ALL the structures won't be built out of steel or > aluminum or even kevlar. A lot of them WILL be built out of kevlar, > though, and the others will be built out of whatever is required. Weasel wording twit; most stuff will be built with aluminum. > Wow, you are spectacularly and hopelessly stupid. Wow, I want to see that plastic bulldozer. -- Jim Pennino
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-14 22:49 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <rbv0hbtrcpm30jcdhai8covba395t4gmm3@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #570653 |
jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote:
>> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>>
>>>In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>At first I was going to respond to the whole thing then I realized most
>>>>>>>>>of it was idiocy like not knowing how disease spreads and denial of
>>>>>>>>>all the scholarly work that says there was a pre-columbian population
>>>>>>>>>of 50 million to 100 million, 80 o 90 percent of which were killed
>>>>>>>>>by European diseseses.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> So you noticed your own delusions.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>No, I quoted three scholarly sources, all of which said essentially
>>>>>>>the same thing.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't believe I am derided in any of your 'scholarly sources' unless
>>>>>> you wrote them yourself.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>No, but you certainly are contradicted.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> And how is that, chimp? What did I write (not what you read, what I
>>>> wrote) that they 'contradict'.
>>>>
>>>
>>>That the indiginous peoples were not wiped out by European diseases ...
>>>
>>
>> Not what I said. Go read it again.
>
>Yes, you did, several times.
>
Liar. I'm not responsible for what you, in your immense stupidity,
substitute for what I wrote.
>>>
>>>... and that there were few people in pre-columbian Americas.
>>>
>>
>> Not what I said. Go read it again.
>
>Yes, you did, several times.
>
Liar. I'm not responsible for what you, in your immense stupidity,
substitute for what I wrote.
>>>
>>>Why ask such a silly question when you said it several times?
>>>
>>
>> Because I knew when you said it that what you came back with wouldn't
>> be what I said. You really don't handle English very well at all, do
>> you? Let me help you out just a bit.
>>
>> What I said was something like "many of the native peoples' died
>> before they ever met a European".
>
>Weasle wording; the mass die off started with the Europeans.
>
It's not "weasle workding", you stupid bastard. Words mean what they
mean. Read what people write, not what your asshole personality wants
them to have said.
>> Note that that is nothing like what
>> you claim I said, unless you believe that there is some reason that
>> disease cannot travel from native to native without an intervening
>> European contact.
>
>The diseases that caused the mass die off were non-existant in the
>Americas before the Europeans arrived.
>
Diseases spontaneously mutate.
>>
>> What I said was "European explorers were surprised at how sparse the
>> native population was". Note that this is not the same thing AT ALL
>> as "there were few people in pre-columbian Americas". In fact, it's
>> talking about POST Columbian America.
>
>Which if flat wrong; European explorers were surprised at how many
>people there were.
>
Cite?
>
>More weasel words.
>
It's not "weasel words", you stupid bastard. Words mean what they
mean. Read what people write, not what your asshole personality wants
them to have said.
>The explorers were the start of post Columbian America.
>
>> While there is no evidence I am aware of other than rough coincidence
>> in time that the disease(s) were from Europeans, let's pretend for a
>> moment that that's correct. Let's examine how what I said is exactly
>> correct and how you, in your eagerness to accuse me of saying things I
>> never said, actually read things I didn't write.
>
>You mean other than they were non-existant until the first Europeans
>arrived?
>
Coincidence does not prove causality.
>> Diseases move faster than settlers or even explorers, Chimp. So we
>> get that initial European contact. One or more natives get something
>> that they have no resistance to. They go back to their villages and
>> expose a bunch of other natives (who have never met a European). Some
>> of those folks travel in various directions (a relatively large
>> population is going to mean travel and trade) and expose yet more
>> natives who perhaps have not even HEARD of Europeans except as
>> rumours. This goes on. 90% of the native population expires, most of
>> them never having met, seen, or even heard of Europeans.
>
>You are the one that kept babbling about MEETING a Eurpean, not me.
>
Yes, I said what I said, not what you pretend I said.
>
>All I said was the Europeans brought the diseases.
>
Unproven.
>> Meanwhile, Europeans, who are only present in small numbers, start to
>> explore and/or settle. By the time they get any appreciable distance
>> from the site of initial contact, much of the native population has
>> died off. The Europeans are surprised at how sparsely populated the
>> land is, not knowing that 90% of the people who lived there not all
>> that long before have disappeared.
>
>Finally got something correct.
>
Got it all correct all along, you incredibly stupid twat.
>>
>> And there's the problem, Jim. You are so eager to pick fights with
>> people that you read things they've never written in order to do so.
>> That's well beyond merely being the asshole you present as and into
>> pathological mental illness. And it's always the other person's
>> fault, whether it's you misreading something, you having some problem
>> with your newsfeed, or anything else. It's NEVER Jimp.
>
>Blow it out your ass, lier.
>
You're the one making shit up and pretending I said it, you hopelessly
stupid twat.
>> Well, this was all you. You made shit up I never said and then
>> proceeded to act as if I'd said it and insult me because YOU were
>> stupid.
>
>Nope, you are denying what you said several times now that you are
>backed against the wall.
>
Liar. Go back and find me saying what you claim I said (as opposed to
what I say I said). Go ahead. I'll wait. But you can't do it
BECAUSE YOU'RE A LIAR.
>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Then I noticed you snipped the important part, so I'll just repost that part.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You mean the biased part that misstates things?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I know a realist description bothers you space cadet.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I know you wouldn't know a 'realistic description' if it came up and
>>>>>> bit you, chimpshit.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>I know you can't resist spewing bile and insults.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> No doubt you 'know' all sorts of rather silly things. Why, if you
>>>> didn't, you wouldn't be able to maintain your "I'm right and everyone
>>>> else is wrong and mean to me" attitude.
>>>>
>>>
>>>Gaffaw.
>>>
>>
>> See above. And below.
>>
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Establish a new family on Earth:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Already responded to this part, but I'll add one addition.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Load the horse drawn wagon the the wife, kids, hand tools, initial
>>>>>>>>>provisions for the trip, some caged chickens and a sack of seeds.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Find a nice spot near tree and water sources.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Plant seeds, cut timber to build cabin,d dig a well so as to not have
>>>>>>>>>to walk as far to get water, build a chicken coop, take shelter in the
>>>>>>>>>wagon until the cabin is built.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Dig a hole and build an outhouse so you don't have to walk to the woods
>>>>>>>>>to take a dump. If you forgot to bring a plow, make a wooden one.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>While waiting for the first crop, forage for wild vegetables, fish, and
>>>>>>>>>hunt game and eat some of the eggs from the chickens.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And probably starve to death if that's your mechanism rather than
>>>>>>>> having supplies on hand.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>What part of forage for wild vegetables, fish, and hunt game did you
>>>>>>>not understand?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Which part of "not the Garden of Eden" did you not understand?
>>>>>
>>>>>What part of forage for wild vegetables, fish, and hunt game did you
>>>>>not understand?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> What part of "not the Garden of Eden" did you not understand?
>>>
>>>What part of forage for wild vegetables, fish, and hunt game did you
>>>not understand?
>>>
>>
>> Which part of Jamestown damned near starved to death and could do any
>> of that for themselves but needed natives to do it for them?
>
>What part of stupid and too busy looking for gold?
>
Which part of liar and liar?
>>>>>
>>>>>While such activities may be far beyond your ability, most people
>>>>>before the 20th century were very adept at it.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yeah, that's why Jamestown had to trade with the natives for food. And
>>>> at that they damned near starved to death one year (well, a lot of
>>>> them DID starve to death).
>>>>
>>>
>>>Yep, the stupid Europeans didn't properly tend to their fields and
>>>had to go begging for help from the Bronze Age savages who had a
>>>surplus of food.
>>>
>>
>> Nope. Jesus Christ, man, the cite is RIGHT DOWN THERE. Read it and
>> stop saying ignorant shite.
>
>So how is it that the Bronze Age savages had a surplus of food when
>the Europeans had a deficit?
>
Because the bronze age savages had had several hundred thousand years
to adjust, you remarkly stupid twat.
>>>>
>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starving_Time
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>If you see any Indians, don't piss them off; try to make friends.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>All of the tecnonology, other than firearms, is well over a thousand
>>>>>>>>>years old.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>All the stuff you have is hand made and most of it is made of wood.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Except for all the essential tools, which were high tech items in the
>>>>>>>> day.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Nope, the axe, saw, plow, etc. are very, very old technology.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But the ones being carried were not, necessarily. The automobile is
>>>>>> 'old technology', but it's changed a lot over the years.
>>>>>
>>>>>Sure they were old technology, space cadet.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Wrong, chimpshit.
>>>>
>>>>>The last improvements were made when they started to be made of iron.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Wrong.
>>>>
>>>
>>>Just saying wrong does not make it so.
>>>
>>
>> No, it BEING wrong makes it so.
>>
>>>
>>>Name any improvement to the axe since when they started to be made of iron.
>>>
>>>The axe is a Stone Age tool.
>>>
>>
>> I point out you are on your ass with regard to plows so now you need
>> to pick a fight over axes. Pathetic, Jim...
>
>Very minor improvements in plows during the colonial period, still
>waiting for ANY improvements in the axe.
>
So now what you've been claiming all along is admitted to be bullshit?
And I already answered your question about axes.
>>
>>>>>
>>>>>You are grasping at straws.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Read this and stop being so ignorant. Vast improvements to plows in
>>>> colonial times.
>>>>
>>>> http://www.lib.niu.edu/2001/iht810102.html
>>>>
>>>
>>>Yep, in late colonial times.
>>>
>>
>> It's just hopeless talking to you, Jim. Reality just never really
>> penetrates, does it? You start from 'stone age no improvements' and
>> then when you're proven wrong it's like, "Well, it didn't happen on
>> TUESDAY".
>
>Agin minor improvements, still waiting for improvements in the axe, then
>we can go on to all the other tools.
>
You're just hopelessly stupid, Jimp.
>>>
>>>Now about that improvement to the axe.
>>>
>>
>> You brought it up. What about them?
>>
>> Which one do you want to talk about, the felling axe, the splitting
>> axe, the broad axe, the adze, the hatchet, the carpenter's axe, the
>> hand axe, or the mortising axe? Oh, wait. None of those were really
>> 'stone age tools', so I guess they are ALL improvements to the axe to
>> suit it for various purposes. And those are just a few.
>
>Time of invention for each?
>
Post stone age, you hopelessly stupid twat.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>The item with the most technology in it is a cast iron cooking pot.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Establsh a new family on Mars:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Which won't be done at all the way it was done on Earth, with one
>>>>>>>> individual going off by themselves. Now that I've pointed that out,
>>>>>>>> you'll claim that Earth colonization doesn't matter and that bringing
>>>>>>>> it up is stupid.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>It was usually groups that went off together, but upon arrival, everything
>>>>>>>I have said is accurate.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>And the title was "Establish a new family on Earth".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 'A new family on Mars' would move into an existing settlement, so
>>>>>> everything you said was pretty much bullshit.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>So how many codos are you going to build before the construction workers
>>>>>pause and the colonist move in?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 'Construction workers'? We're not talking about suburban Connecticut,
>>>> chimpshit.
>>>>
>>>
>>>Guys that build shit, grunt labor, whatever you want to call it, space
>>>cadet.
>>>
>>
>> Not required, Chimp. Shit is 'built' when it arrives (at least
>> initially) and you just plug it together.
>
>Yeah, sure, space cadet.
>
Poor, stupid Jimp.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>How does that in any way effect what you have to have other than bigger
>>>>>and more everything?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It doesn't 'effect' anything, but it does 'affect' a few things, but
>>>> in ways that make it easier. You probably already have excess power,
>>>> water, and air, because you'd add that stuff in 'blocks'. That means
>>>> all you have to do is (potentially) dig a hole, drop an inflatable in,
>>>> blow it up, connect the couplings, and cover it all back up with dirt.
>>>
>>>Yes, just like WWII where all we had to do was beat the Nazi army and
>>>navy.
>>>
>>
>> You're hopelessly stupid.
>
>You're totally starry eyed.
>
You're hopelessly stupid.
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Haul in many tons of technology, materials, tools, food, oxygen, water
>>>>>>>>>and repair parts by some means.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>While working in pressure suits...
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Install power system.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Self-contained. No 'installation' required.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>So it it going to get out of the transport vehicle, site itself, then
>>>>>>>connect itself, no assembly required?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Plugs are 'old technology', chimp. I'm sure even you can operate
>>>>>> them. You know, if you would READ the things you're pointed to rather
>>>>>> than trying to construct a case for why they don't apply you would not
>>>>>> make such stupid statements.
>>>>>
>>>>>So it it going to get out of the transport vehicle, site itself, then
>>>>>connect itself, no assembly required?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Again, you should have read the papers I gave you pointers to instead
>>>> of just throwing up objections and excuses for why you don't think
>>>> they apply because they don't talk about dogs and diapers. Of course
>>>> it's going to do all that but 'connect itself'. Do you never actually
>>>> read what is said to you? I suspect your average Mars colonist can
>>>> handle hooking up a few fittings.
>>>>
>>>> Go back and read the Mars Reference Architecture (no, really read it
>>>> this time). In situ fuel production that starts years before humans
>>>> arrive. Yes, it's going to get out of the transport vehicle, cite
>>>> itself, etc. No assembly required.
>>>>
>>>> Ditto with power, except the people will have to run some cables once
>>>> they get there. Reactor lands itself several hundred meters from
>>>> where the habitat will be. Yes, it's going to get out of the
>>>> transport vehicle, cite itself, etc. When the habitat is in place,
>>>> plug in power.
>>>
>>>Most people that cite themselves are nuts.
>>>
>>
>> Yes, which is why I think you do it so frequently.
>
>See your text above, fool.
>
See your text above, you hopelessly stupid twat.
>>
>>>>
>>>> You wouldn't say nearly so many stupid things, Jim, if you ACTUALLY
>>>> READ WHAT PEOPLE WRITE AND WHAT THEY POINT YOU TO.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Put up a radiation sheilded structure or bury a non-shielded staructure.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In other words, 'dig a hole'.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Yes, a very big hole, put your shelter in in, and cover it up, all
>>>>>>>while in a pressure suit.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Digging holes is 'old technology'.
>>>>>
>>>>>Not on Mars unless you are going to have Chinese workers in pressure
>>>>>suits.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> How long have we been digging holes, Jim? Here, educate yourself so
>>>> you can try to stop saying so much stupid shit:
>>>>
>>>> http://www.ritchiewiki.com/wiki/index.php/Excavation
>>>>
>>>> We've had excavating machinery and explosives for over a century. It's
>>>> 19th century technology, chimp. Of course we'll use more compact and
>>>> modern equipment on Mars, but it's still simple stuff.
>>>
>>>Yeah, sure, space cadet.
>>>
>>
>> I'm sorry it's not simple for you, Chimp, but you're hopelessly
>> stupid.
>
>Yeah, sure, space cadet.
>
Hopelessly stupid, Chimp.
>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>> All of the following is pretty much also self-contained and automated,
>>>>>>>> so all your 'install' and 'set up' is pretty much non-existent.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Utter nonsense.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Good of you to label your following output, but it wasn't necessary.
>>>>>
>>>>>Nope, the utter nonsese is your hand waving away the complexity of it all.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> There is no 'complexity of it all' except in your obstructionist mind.
>>>
>>>Yeah, sure, space cadet.
>>>
>>
>> So where is this 'complexity' of which you speak? Why do I think it's
>> the result of the same mental processes that led you to claim I've
>> said things I never said?
>
>Yeah, sure, space cadet.
>
Hopelessly stupid, Chimp.
>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>None that stuff is going to get out of the transport vehicle, site
>>>>>>>itself, then connect itself, no assembly required.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Chimp, you know where you want to put it (the analog to your 'pick a
>>>>>> place with forests and water'), so you land it there. Sited. Yes, it
>>>>>> will 'unload itself'. Out of the transport vehicle. As for your
>>>>>> "connect itself", you're just being intellectually dishonest. I said
>>>>>> you'd have to plug in power and water conduits (also oxygen). Perhaps
>>>>>> that's too challenging for you, but most of us can handle plugging
>>>>>> things in.
>>>>>
>>>>>Yeah, sure, space cadet.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> You never actually read ANYTHING, do you, chimpshit?
>>>>
>>>
>>>Of course not, space cadet.
>>>
>>
>> Yeah, and it shows. You're hopelessly stupid.
>
>Yeah, sure, space cadet.
>
Hopelessly stupid, Chimp.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Why would a power system have wheels and be able to drive itself, space
>>>>>cadet?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Who said it had to, chimpshit? Go read the Mars Reference Mission
>>>> again (no, REALLY read it and see how the power systems work).
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>What if the ground is uneven and the slightest bit rocky, space cadet?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Self-leveling jacks, chimpshit. OLD technology.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Oh, I know, the autonomous bull dozer rolls out first and levels everything.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yes, as usual you know all sorts of stupid shit that you make up.
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Install pressurization system with oxygen tanks and CO2 scrubbers.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Install water tanks and plumbing system with toilets and refuse system.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Install heating system.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Install water recyling system and refuse to fertilizer system.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Set up system to generate oxygen from rocks and pipe it into the structue.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Set up system to mine ice, melt it, purify it, and pipe it into the
>>>>>>>>>structure tanks.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> So to this point your 'install' and 'set up' amounts to plugging in
>>>>>>>> some power and water conduits.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Site leveling, movement, and connections at the minimum assuming
>>>>>>>everything is pre assembled, all while in a pressure suit.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You don't need to do 'site leveling'. The automated equipment is
>>>>>> self-leveling. You need to plug some connectors together. I can
>>>>>> believe that's too hard for you, but then we'll be sending normal
>>>>>> human beings to Mars, not you.
>>>>>
>>>>>Yeah, sure, space cadet.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Indeed, chimpshit.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>And the AI that drives the water plant also makes a good cup of Earl
>>>>>Grey.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> You don't 'drive' anywhere, chimpshit. You just drop the stuff where
>>>> you want it in the first place.
>>>
>>>Pick up the trasport rocket and shake...
>>>
>>
>> Hopelessly stupid.
>
>Yeah, sure, space cadet.
>
Hopelessly stupid, Chimp.
>>
>>>> And even if you do have to 'drive' it, you know we have autonomous
>>>> vehicles already, right? And we already have remote operated vehicles
>>>> on Mars (and that gets a lot easier once you take the lightspeed delay
>>>> out by actually being on site).
>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> What follows only applies if you intend to farm. Jim may not be
>>>>>>>> aware, but we've moved away from agrarian societies over the last
>>>>>>>> several centuries.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>The space cadet may not be aware, but we moved away from agrarian societies
>>>>>>>at the end of the 19th century when farm machinery was invented and
>>>>>>>farming became much less labor intensive.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The chimpshit may not be aware, but we have all sorts of agricultural
>>>>>> methods that have been developed since then and it probably hasn't
>>>>>> occurred to him that "less labor intensive" is what I'm talking about
>>>>>> and he's objecting to as not possible.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>There go those voices in your head again, space cadet, I never said
>>>>>anything about not possible.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Oh, I see now, chimpshit. All your made up barriers are to
>>>> demonstrate how EASY it is. Wow, how could we have missed that?
>>>
>>>YOU keep saying I said impossible, which I have never said, space cadet.
>>>
>>
>> YOU keep throwing up barriers to make things impossible and then when
>> called on your bullshit whine about how you never actually used the
>> word.
>
>Yeah, sure, space cadet.
>
Hopelessly stupid, Chimp.
>>
>> Hopelessly stupid.
>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>The space cadet may not be aware, but the priorities on Mars would be
>>>>>>>to ensure a constant supply of air, water, and food, in that order.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The chimpshit may not be aware, but the only one of those that is even
>>>>>> slightly complicated is the last one (and only because of the space
>>>>>> required). The chimpshit may also not realize that since you bring
>>>>>> years worth of food with you when you come, you have time to work on
>>>>>> the whole 'local food production' problem. It's not like you have to
>>>>>> solve it next Tuesday.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>There go those voices in your head again, space cadet, I never said
>>>>>anything about next Tuesday.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Oh, I see now, chimpshit. All your made up barriers are to
>>>> demonstrate how EASY it is. Wow, how could we have missed that?
>>>>
>>>
>>>Because you are a starry eyed space cadet.
>>>
>>
>> More likely because you are a lying piece of chimpshit.
>
>Yeah, sure, space cadet bully.
>
Hopelessly stupid, Chimp coward.
>>
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Set up pressurized environment to grow food and connect to the power,
>>>>>>>>>water, and oxygen system.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Plant seeds.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>While waiting for the first crop, eat the tons of provisions you brought
>>>>>>>>>with you.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Prey nothing breaks and if it does that you have a repair part.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>The oldest technology you have is mid 20th century.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Everything you have is made by machines in factories.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>The raw materials for the things you have had to be gathered from all
>>>>>>>>>over the Earth.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Aluminum, for example, comes from Australia, Brazil, China, India, Guinea,
>>>>>>>>>Indonesia, Jamaica, Russia and Suriname, but not Pittsburg.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>The lowest technology items you have are your aluminum alloy cooking utensils.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You can't cook in cast iron anymore? Wow, who knew?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Sure you can, but only an idiot would chose cast iron over aluminum for
>>>>>>>Mars if for no other reason than the weight penalty.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> When you're moving a hundred tonnes at a time, is that really an
>>>>>> issue? I don't think so, but of course Jimp The Chimp needed to find
>>>>>> a barrier to throw up...
>>>>>
>>>>>Sure it is an issue, space cadet, everything will be optimized to be as
>>>>>light as possible while maintaining functionality.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Why? You only need to do that if boost is expensive and rare.
>>>
>>>Nope, even if cheap you want to optimize the total amount of crap you
>>>can send at once.
>>>
>>
>> Let me make it simple for you. Sometimes the payload is weight
>> limited and you care about that. Sometimes the payload is volume
>> limited and you care about that. Sometimes you don't have a full load
>> either by weight or by volume, so you get to throw in shit and don't
>> care what it weighs or about space or about both.
>>
>> Go look up GAScan or CubeSat or any of a number of essentially 'free
>> riders' even given the limited and expensive boosters currently in
>> use. Now scale all that up to 100 tonne payloads and frequent
>> launches.
>
>Let me make it simple for you. If you are setting up permanent living
>quarters on Mars, for any reason or goal, you want as much shit as
>you can get.
>
>You still won't get it, of course, but that's because you're
>hopelessly starry eyed.
>
Yes, and stupid micro-optimizations like you're obsessed with are why
everyone but SpaceEx has cost problems.
>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>To do otherwise is blazingly stupid even for you.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> No, thinking that's necessary is blazingly stupid. No wonder you
>>>> cannot conceive of how a Mars colony would work.
>>>>
>>>
>>>Sure I can conceive of how a Mars colony would work, what I can't
>>>conceive is how it would ever be paid for.
>>>
>>
>> That's because you're hopelessly stupid.
>
>That's because you're hopelessly starry eyed.
>
That's because you're hopelessly stupid.
>>>>>
>>>>>Do you think all the structures will be built of steel for cost or
>>>>>aluminum for weight?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I think that's a blazingly stupid question. The answer is 'neither,
>>>> and not for either of those reasons'.
>>>>
>>>
>>>Blow up dolls do not solve all problems, space cadet.
>>>
>>
>> But they solve a lot of them, chimpshit. Your question was "all the
>> structures". ALL the structures won't be built out of steel or
>> aluminum or even kevlar. A lot of them WILL be built out of kevlar,
>> though, and the others will be built out of whatever is required.
>
>Weasel wording twit; most stuff will be built with aluminum.
>
Wrong and it's not weasel wording. Most stuff will be built with
kevlar and plastics.
>> Wow, you are spectacularly and hopelessly stupid.
>
>Wow, I want to see that plastic bulldozer.
>
Wow, I want to see you say something sensible, but I'm not holding my
breath because you are hopelessly stupid.
--
"Ordinarily he is insane. But he has lucid moments when he is
only stupid."
-- Heinrich Heine
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-15 21:32 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <1938uc-jfd.ln1@mail.specsol.com> |
| In reply to | #570659 |
In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote: > jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: > >>In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote: >>> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: >>> >>>>In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>At first I was going to respond to the whole thing then I realized most >>>>>>>>>>of it was idiocy like not knowing how disease spreads and denial of >>>>>>>>>>all the scholarly work that says there was a pre-columbian population >>>>>>>>>>of 50 million to 100 million, 80 o 90 percent of which were killed >>>>>>>>>>by European diseseses. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> So you noticed your own delusions. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>No, I quoted three scholarly sources, all of which said essentially >>>>>>>>the same thing. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I don't believe I am derided in any of your 'scholarly sources' unless >>>>>>> you wrote them yourself. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>No, but you certainly are contradicted. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> And how is that, chimp? What did I write (not what you read, what I >>>>> wrote) that they 'contradict'. >>>>> >>>> >>>>That the indiginous peoples were not wiped out by European diseases ... >>>> >>> >>> Not what I said. Go read it again. >> >>Yes, you did, several times. >> > > Liar. I'm not responsible for what you, in your immense stupidity, > substitute for what I wrote. Liar, liar, pants on fire... > >>>> >>>>... and that there were few people in pre-columbian Americas. >>>> >>> >>> Not what I said. Go read it again. >> >>Yes, you did, several times. >> > > Liar. I'm not responsible for what you, in your immense stupidity, > substitute for what I wrote. Liar, liar, pants on fire... > >>>> >>>>Why ask such a silly question when you said it several times? >>>> >>> >>> Because I knew when you said it that what you came back with wouldn't >>> be what I said. You really don't handle English very well at all, do >>> you? Let me help you out just a bit. >>> >>> What I said was something like "many of the native peoples' died >>> before they ever met a European". >> >>Weasle wording; the mass die off started with the Europeans. >> > > It's not "weasle workding", you stupid bastard. Words mean what they > mean. Read what people write, not what your asshole personality wants > them to have said. The mass die off started with the Europeans. > >>> Note that that is nothing like what >>> you claim I said, unless you believe that there is some reason that >>> disease cannot travel from native to native without an intervening >>> European contact. >> >>The diseases that caused the mass die off were non-existant in the >>Americas before the Europeans arrived. >> > > Diseases spontaneously mutate. The diseases that caused the mass die off were non-existant in the Americas before the Europeans arrived. You don't spontaneously get bubonic plague, chicken pox, pneumonic plague, cholera, diphtheria, influenza, measles, scarlet fever, smallpox, typhus, tuberculosis, and whooping cough. http://nativeamericannetroots.net/diary/325 >>> What I said was "European explorers were surprised at how sparse the >>> native population was". Note that this is not the same thing AT ALL >>> as "there were few people in pre-columbian Americas". In fact, it's >>> talking about POST Columbian America. >> >>Which if flat wrong; European explorers were surprised at how many >>people there were. >> > > Cite? http://www.jcs-group.com/oldwest/america/columbian.html "According to first person accounts, the lands visited by explorers and early settlers were often densely populated." > >> >>More weasel words. >> > > It's not "weasel words", you stupid bastard. Words mean what they > mean. Read what people write, not what your asshole personality wants > them to have said. > >>The explorers were the start of post Columbian America. >> >>> While there is no evidence I am aware of other than rough coincidence >>> in time that the disease(s) were from Europeans, let's pretend for a >>> moment that that's correct. Let's examine how what I said is exactly >>> correct and how you, in your eagerness to accuse me of saying things I >>> never said, actually read things I didn't write. >> >>You mean other than they were non-existant until the first Europeans >>arrived? >> > > Coincidence does not prove causality. http://nativeamericannetroots.net/diary/325 > >>> Diseases move faster than settlers or even explorers, Chimp. So we >>> get that initial European contact. One or more natives get something >>> that they have no resistance to. They go back to their villages and >>> expose a bunch of other natives (who have never met a European). Some >>> of those folks travel in various directions (a relatively large >>> population is going to mean travel and trade) and expose yet more >>> natives who perhaps have not even HEARD of Europeans except as >>> rumours. This goes on. 90% of the native population expires, most of >>> them never having met, seen, or even heard of Europeans. >> >>You are the one that kept babbling about MEETING a Eurpean, not me. >> > > Yes, I said what I said, not what you pretend I said. > >> >>All I said was the Europeans brought the diseases. >> > > Unproven. http://nativeamericannetroots.net/diary/325 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_American_disease_and_epidemics > >>> Meanwhile, Europeans, who are only present in small numbers, start to >>> explore and/or settle. By the time they get any appreciable distance >>> from the site of initial contact, much of the native population has >>> died off. The Europeans are surprised at how sparsely populated the >>> land is, not knowing that 90% of the people who lived there not all >>> that long before have disappeared. >> >>Finally got something correct. >> > > Got it all correct all along, you incredibly stupid twat. Nope, head firmly up ass. > >>> >>> And there's the problem, Jim. You are so eager to pick fights with >>> people that you read things they've never written in order to do so. >>> That's well beyond merely being the asshole you present as and into >>> pathological mental illness. And it's always the other person's >>> fault, whether it's you misreading something, you having some problem >>> with your newsfeed, or anything else. It's NEVER Jimp. >> >>Blow it out your ass, lier. >> > > You're the one making shit up and pretending I said it, you hopelessly > stupid twat. > >>> Well, this was all you. You made shit up I never said and then >>> proceeded to act as if I'd said it and insult me because YOU were >>> stupid. >> >>Nope, you are denying what you said several times now that you are >>backed against the wall. >> > > Liar. Go back and find me saying what you claim I said (as opposed to > what I say I said). Go ahead. I'll wait. But you can't do it > BECAUSE YOU'RE A LIAR. > >>> >>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>Then I noticed you snipped the important part, so I'll just repost that part. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> You mean the biased part that misstates things? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>I know a realist description bothers you space cadet. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I know you wouldn't know a 'realistic description' if it came up and >>>>>>> bit you, chimpshit. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>I know you can't resist spewing bile and insults. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> No doubt you 'know' all sorts of rather silly things. Why, if you >>>>> didn't, you wouldn't be able to maintain your "I'm right and everyone >>>>> else is wrong and mean to me" attitude. >>>>> >>>> >>>>Gaffaw. >>>> >>> >>> See above. And below. >>> >>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>Establish a new family on Earth: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Already responded to this part, but I'll add one addition. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>Load the horse drawn wagon the the wife, kids, hand tools, initial >>>>>>>>>>provisions for the trip, some caged chickens and a sack of seeds. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>Find a nice spot near tree and water sources. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>Plant seeds, cut timber to build cabin,d dig a well so as to not have >>>>>>>>>>to walk as far to get water, build a chicken coop, take shelter in the >>>>>>>>>>wagon until the cabin is built. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>Dig a hole and build an outhouse so you don't have to walk to the woods >>>>>>>>>>to take a dump. If you forgot to bring a plow, make a wooden one. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>While waiting for the first crop, forage for wild vegetables, fish, and >>>>>>>>>>hunt game and eat some of the eggs from the chickens. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> And probably starve to death if that's your mechanism rather than >>>>>>>>> having supplies on hand. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>What part of forage for wild vegetables, fish, and hunt game did you >>>>>>>>not understand? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Which part of "not the Garden of Eden" did you not understand? >>>>>> >>>>>>What part of forage for wild vegetables, fish, and hunt game did you >>>>>>not understand? >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> What part of "not the Garden of Eden" did you not understand? >>>> >>>>What part of forage for wild vegetables, fish, and hunt game did you >>>>not understand? >>>> >>> >>> Which part of Jamestown damned near starved to death and could do any >>> of that for themselves but needed natives to do it for them? >> >>What part of stupid and too busy looking for gold? >> > > Which part of liar and liar? > >>>>>> >>>>>>While such activities may be far beyond your ability, most people >>>>>>before the 20th century were very adept at it. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Yeah, that's why Jamestown had to trade with the natives for food. And >>>>> at that they damned near starved to death one year (well, a lot of >>>>> them DID starve to death). >>>>> >>>> >>>>Yep, the stupid Europeans didn't properly tend to their fields and >>>>had to go begging for help from the Bronze Age savages who had a >>>>surplus of food. >>>> >>> >>> Nope. Jesus Christ, man, the cite is RIGHT DOWN THERE. Read it and >>> stop saying ignorant shite. >> >>So how is it that the Bronze Age savages had a surplus of food when >>the Europeans had a deficit? >> > > Because the bronze age savages had had several hundred thousand years > to adjust, you remarkly stupid twat. Nope, they only had a few thousand years, you remarkly stupid twat. >>>>> >>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starving_Time >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>If you see any Indians, don't piss them off; try to make friends. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>All of the tecnonology, other than firearms, is well over a thousand >>>>>>>>>>years old. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>All the stuff you have is hand made and most of it is made of wood. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Except for all the essential tools, which were high tech items in the >>>>>>>>> day. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Nope, the axe, saw, plow, etc. are very, very old technology. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> But the ones being carried were not, necessarily. The automobile is >>>>>>> 'old technology', but it's changed a lot over the years. >>>>>> >>>>>>Sure they were old technology, space cadet. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Wrong, chimpshit. >>>>> >>>>>>The last improvements were made when they started to be made of iron. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Wrong. >>>>> >>>> >>>>Just saying wrong does not make it so. >>>> >>> >>> No, it BEING wrong makes it so. >>> >>>> >>>>Name any improvement to the axe since when they started to be made of iron. >>>> >>>>The axe is a Stone Age tool. >>>> >>> >>> I point out you are on your ass with regard to plows so now you need >>> to pick a fight over axes. Pathetic, Jim... >> >>Very minor improvements in plows during the colonial period, still >>waiting for ANY improvements in the axe. >> > > So now what you've been claiming all along is admitted to be bullshit? > And I already answered your question about axes. > >>> >>>>>> >>>>>>You are grasping at straws. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Read this and stop being so ignorant. Vast improvements to plows in >>>>> colonial times. >>>>> >>>>> http://www.lib.niu.edu/2001/iht810102.html >>>>> >>>> >>>>Yep, in late colonial times. >>>> >>> >>> It's just hopeless talking to you, Jim. Reality just never really >>> penetrates, does it? You start from 'stone age no improvements' and >>> then when you're proven wrong it's like, "Well, it didn't happen on >>> TUESDAY". >> >>Agin minor improvements, still waiting for improvements in the axe, then >>we can go on to all the other tools. >> > > You're just hopelessly stupid, Jimp. > >>>> >>>>Now about that improvement to the axe. >>>> >>> >>> You brought it up. What about them? >>> >>> Which one do you want to talk about, the felling axe, the splitting >>> axe, the broad axe, the adze, the hatchet, the carpenter's axe, the >>> hand axe, or the mortising axe? Oh, wait. None of those were really >>> 'stone age tools', so I guess they are ALL improvements to the axe to >>> suit it for various purposes. And those are just a few. >> >>Time of invention for each? >> > > Post stone age, you hopelessly stupid twat. Post stone age is LONG before the colonial period, hopelessly stupid twat. >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>The item with the most technology in it is a cast iron cooking pot. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>Establsh a new family on Mars: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Which won't be done at all the way it was done on Earth, with one >>>>>>>>> individual going off by themselves. Now that I've pointed that out, >>>>>>>>> you'll claim that Earth colonization doesn't matter and that bringing >>>>>>>>> it up is stupid. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>It was usually groups that went off together, but upon arrival, everything >>>>>>>>I have said is accurate. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>And the title was "Establish a new family on Earth". >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 'A new family on Mars' would move into an existing settlement, so >>>>>>> everything you said was pretty much bullshit. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>So how many codos are you going to build before the construction workers >>>>>>pause and the colonist move in? >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 'Construction workers'? We're not talking about suburban Connecticut, >>>>> chimpshit. >>>>> >>>> >>>>Guys that build shit, grunt labor, whatever you want to call it, space >>>>cadet. >>>> >>> >>> Not required, Chimp. Shit is 'built' when it arrives (at least >>> initially) and you just plug it together. >> >>Yeah, sure, space cadet. >> > > Poor, stupid Jimp. > >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>How does that in any way effect what you have to have other than bigger >>>>>>and more everything? >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> It doesn't 'effect' anything, but it does 'affect' a few things, but >>>>> in ways that make it easier. You probably already have excess power, >>>>> water, and air, because you'd add that stuff in 'blocks'. That means >>>>> all you have to do is (potentially) dig a hole, drop an inflatable in, >>>>> blow it up, connect the couplings, and cover it all back up with dirt. >>>> >>>>Yes, just like WWII where all we had to do was beat the Nazi army and >>>>navy. >>>> >>> >>> You're hopelessly stupid. >> >>You're totally starry eyed. >> > > You're hopelessly stupid. > >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>Haul in many tons of technology, materials, tools, food, oxygen, water >>>>>>>>>>and repair parts by some means. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>While working in pressure suits... >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>Install power system. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Self-contained. No 'installation' required. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>So it it going to get out of the transport vehicle, site itself, then >>>>>>>>connect itself, no assembly required? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Plugs are 'old technology', chimp. I'm sure even you can operate >>>>>>> them. You know, if you would READ the things you're pointed to rather >>>>>>> than trying to construct a case for why they don't apply you would not >>>>>>> make such stupid statements. >>>>>> >>>>>>So it it going to get out of the transport vehicle, site itself, then >>>>>>connect itself, no assembly required? >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Again, you should have read the papers I gave you pointers to instead >>>>> of just throwing up objections and excuses for why you don't think >>>>> they apply because they don't talk about dogs and diapers. Of course >>>>> it's going to do all that but 'connect itself'. Do you never actually >>>>> read what is said to you? I suspect your average Mars colonist can >>>>> handle hooking up a few fittings. >>>>> >>>>> Go back and read the Mars Reference Architecture (no, really read it >>>>> this time). In situ fuel production that starts years before humans >>>>> arrive. Yes, it's going to get out of the transport vehicle, cite >>>>> itself, etc. No assembly required. >>>>> >>>>> Ditto with power, except the people will have to run some cables once >>>>> they get there. Reactor lands itself several hundred meters from >>>>> where the habitat will be. Yes, it's going to get out of the >>>>> transport vehicle, cite itself, etc. When the habitat is in place, >>>>> plug in power. >>>> >>>>Most people that cite themselves are nuts. >>>> >>> >>> Yes, which is why I think you do it so frequently. >> >>See your text above, fool. >> > > See your text above, you hopelessly stupid twat. > >>> >>>>> >>>>> You wouldn't say nearly so many stupid things, Jim, if you ACTUALLY >>>>> READ WHAT PEOPLE WRITE AND WHAT THEY POINT YOU TO. >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>Put up a radiation sheilded structure or bury a non-shielded staructure. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> In other words, 'dig a hole'. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Yes, a very big hole, put your shelter in in, and cover it up, all >>>>>>>>while in a pressure suit. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Digging holes is 'old technology'. >>>>>> >>>>>>Not on Mars unless you are going to have Chinese workers in pressure >>>>>>suits. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> How long have we been digging holes, Jim? Here, educate yourself so >>>>> you can try to stop saying so much stupid shit: >>>>> >>>>> http://www.ritchiewiki.com/wiki/index.php/Excavation >>>>> >>>>> We've had excavating machinery and explosives for over a century. It's >>>>> 19th century technology, chimp. Of course we'll use more compact and >>>>> modern equipment on Mars, but it's still simple stuff. >>>> >>>>Yeah, sure, space cadet. >>>> >>> >>> I'm sorry it's not simple for you, Chimp, but you're hopelessly >>> stupid. >> >>Yeah, sure, space cadet. >> > > Hopelessly stupid, Chimp. > >>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>> All of the following is pretty much also self-contained and automated, >>>>>>>>> so all your 'install' and 'set up' is pretty much non-existent. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Utter nonsense. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Good of you to label your following output, but it wasn't necessary. >>>>>> >>>>>>Nope, the utter nonsese is your hand waving away the complexity of it all. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> There is no 'complexity of it all' except in your obstructionist mind. >>>> >>>>Yeah, sure, space cadet. >>>> >>> >>> So where is this 'complexity' of which you speak? Why do I think it's >>> the result of the same mental processes that led you to claim I've >>> said things I never said? >> >>Yeah, sure, space cadet. >> > > Hopelessly stupid, Chimp. > >>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>None that stuff is going to get out of the transport vehicle, site >>>>>>>>itself, then connect itself, no assembly required. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Chimp, you know where you want to put it (the analog to your 'pick a >>>>>>> place with forests and water'), so you land it there. Sited. Yes, it >>>>>>> will 'unload itself'. Out of the transport vehicle. As for your >>>>>>> "connect itself", you're just being intellectually dishonest. I said >>>>>>> you'd have to plug in power and water conduits (also oxygen). Perhaps >>>>>>> that's too challenging for you, but most of us can handle plugging >>>>>>> things in. >>>>>> >>>>>>Yeah, sure, space cadet. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> You never actually read ANYTHING, do you, chimpshit? >>>>> >>>> >>>>Of course not, space cadet. >>>> >>> >>> Yeah, and it shows. You're hopelessly stupid. >> >>Yeah, sure, space cadet. >> > > Hopelessly stupid, Chimp. > >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>Why would a power system have wheels and be able to drive itself, space >>>>>>cadet? >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Who said it had to, chimpshit? Go read the Mars Reference Mission >>>>> again (no, REALLY read it and see how the power systems work). >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>What if the ground is uneven and the slightest bit rocky, space cadet? >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Self-leveling jacks, chimpshit. OLD technology. >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>Oh, I know, the autonomous bull dozer rolls out first and levels everything. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Yes, as usual you know all sorts of stupid shit that you make up. >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>Install pressurization system with oxygen tanks and CO2 scrubbers. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>Install water tanks and plumbing system with toilets and refuse system. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>Install heating system. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>Install water recyling system and refuse to fertilizer system. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>Set up system to generate oxygen from rocks and pipe it into the structue. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>Set up system to mine ice, melt it, purify it, and pipe it into the >>>>>>>>>>structure tanks. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> So to this point your 'install' and 'set up' amounts to plugging in >>>>>>>>> some power and water conduits. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Site leveling, movement, and connections at the minimum assuming >>>>>>>>everything is pre assembled, all while in a pressure suit. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> You don't need to do 'site leveling'. The automated equipment is >>>>>>> self-leveling. You need to plug some connectors together. I can >>>>>>> believe that's too hard for you, but then we'll be sending normal >>>>>>> human beings to Mars, not you. >>>>>> >>>>>>Yeah, sure, space cadet. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Indeed, chimpshit. >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>And the AI that drives the water plant also makes a good cup of Earl >>>>>>Grey. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> You don't 'drive' anywhere, chimpshit. You just drop the stuff where >>>>> you want it in the first place. >>>> >>>>Pick up the trasport rocket and shake... >>>> >>> >>> Hopelessly stupid. >> >>Yeah, sure, space cadet. >> > > Hopelessly stupid, Chimp. > >>> >>>>> And even if you do have to 'drive' it, you know we have autonomous >>>>> vehicles already, right? And we already have remote operated vehicles >>>>> on Mars (and that gets a lot easier once you take the lightspeed delay >>>>> out by actually being on site). >>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> What follows only applies if you intend to farm. Jim may not be >>>>>>>>> aware, but we've moved away from agrarian societies over the last >>>>>>>>> several centuries. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>The space cadet may not be aware, but we moved away from agrarian societies >>>>>>>>at the end of the 19th century when farm machinery was invented and >>>>>>>>farming became much less labor intensive. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The chimpshit may not be aware, but we have all sorts of agricultural >>>>>>> methods that have been developed since then and it probably hasn't >>>>>>> occurred to him that "less labor intensive" is what I'm talking about >>>>>>> and he's objecting to as not possible. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>There go those voices in your head again, space cadet, I never said >>>>>>anything about not possible. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Oh, I see now, chimpshit. All your made up barriers are to >>>>> demonstrate how EASY it is. Wow, how could we have missed that? >>>> >>>>YOU keep saying I said impossible, which I have never said, space cadet. >>>> >>> >>> YOU keep throwing up barriers to make things impossible and then when >>> called on your bullshit whine about how you never actually used the >>> word. >> >>Yeah, sure, space cadet. >> > > Hopelessly stupid, Chimp. > >>> >>> Hopelessly stupid. >>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>The space cadet may not be aware, but the priorities on Mars would be >>>>>>>>to ensure a constant supply of air, water, and food, in that order. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The chimpshit may not be aware, but the only one of those that is even >>>>>>> slightly complicated is the last one (and only because of the space >>>>>>> required). The chimpshit may also not realize that since you bring >>>>>>> years worth of food with you when you come, you have time to work on >>>>>>> the whole 'local food production' problem. It's not like you have to >>>>>>> solve it next Tuesday. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>There go those voices in your head again, space cadet, I never said >>>>>>anything about next Tuesday. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Oh, I see now, chimpshit. All your made up barriers are to >>>>> demonstrate how EASY it is. Wow, how could we have missed that? >>>>> >>>> >>>>Because you are a starry eyed space cadet. >>>> >>> >>> More likely because you are a lying piece of chimpshit. >> >>Yeah, sure, space cadet bully. >> > > Hopelessly stupid, Chimp coward. > >>> >>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>Set up pressurized environment to grow food and connect to the power, >>>>>>>>>>water, and oxygen system. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>Plant seeds. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>While waiting for the first crop, eat the tons of provisions you brought >>>>>>>>>>with you. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>Prey nothing breaks and if it does that you have a repair part. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>The oldest technology you have is mid 20th century. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>Everything you have is made by machines in factories. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>The raw materials for the things you have had to be gathered from all >>>>>>>>>>over the Earth. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>Aluminum, for example, comes from Australia, Brazil, China, India, Guinea, >>>>>>>>>>Indonesia, Jamaica, Russia and Suriname, but not Pittsburg. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>The lowest technology items you have are your aluminum alloy cooking utensils. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> You can't cook in cast iron anymore? Wow, who knew? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Sure you can, but only an idiot would chose cast iron over aluminum for >>>>>>>>Mars if for no other reason than the weight penalty. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> When you're moving a hundred tonnes at a time, is that really an >>>>>>> issue? I don't think so, but of course Jimp The Chimp needed to find >>>>>>> a barrier to throw up... >>>>>> >>>>>>Sure it is an issue, space cadet, everything will be optimized to be as >>>>>>light as possible while maintaining functionality. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Why? You only need to do that if boost is expensive and rare. >>>> >>>>Nope, even if cheap you want to optimize the total amount of crap you >>>>can send at once. >>>> >>> >>> Let me make it simple for you. Sometimes the payload is weight >>> limited and you care about that. Sometimes the payload is volume >>> limited and you care about that. Sometimes you don't have a full load >>> either by weight or by volume, so you get to throw in shit and don't >>> care what it weighs or about space or about both. >>> >>> Go look up GAScan or CubeSat or any of a number of essentially 'free >>> riders' even given the limited and expensive boosters currently in >>> use. Now scale all that up to 100 tonne payloads and frequent >>> launches. >> >>Let me make it simple for you. If you are setting up permanent living >>quarters on Mars, for any reason or goal, you want as much shit as >>you can get. >> >>You still won't get it, of course, but that's because you're >>hopelessly starry eyed. >> > > Yes, and stupid micro-optimizations like you're obsessed with are why > everyone but SpaceEx has cost problems. > >> >>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>To do otherwise is blazingly stupid even for you. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> No, thinking that's necessary is blazingly stupid. No wonder you >>>>> cannot conceive of how a Mars colony would work. >>>>> >>>> >>>>Sure I can conceive of how a Mars colony would work, what I can't >>>>conceive is how it would ever be paid for. >>>> >>> >>> That's because you're hopelessly stupid. >> >>That's because you're hopelessly starry eyed. >> > > That's because you're hopelessly stupid. > >>>>>> >>>>>>Do you think all the structures will be built of steel for cost or >>>>>>aluminum for weight? >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I think that's a blazingly stupid question. The answer is 'neither, >>>>> and not for either of those reasons'. >>>>> >>>> >>>>Blow up dolls do not solve all problems, space cadet. >>>> >>> >>> But they solve a lot of them, chimpshit. Your question was "all the >>> structures". ALL the structures won't be built out of steel or >>> aluminum or even kevlar. A lot of them WILL be built out of kevlar, >>> though, and the others will be built out of whatever is required. >> >>Weasel wording twit; most stuff will be built with aluminum. >> > > Wrong and it's not weasel wording. Most stuff will be built with > kevlar and plastics. > >>> Wow, you are spectacularly and hopelessly stupid. >> >>Wow, I want to see that plastic bulldozer. >> > > Wow, I want to see you say something sensible, but I'm not holding my > breath because you are hopelessly stupid. Keep holding your breath, space cadet. -- Jim Pennino
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