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Groups > sci.physics > #570619
| From | jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com |
|---|---|
| Newsgroups | rec.arts.sf.science, sci.astro, sci.physics, sci.space.policy |
| Subject | Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon |
| Date | 2016-04-15 01:47 +0000 |
| Organization | A noiseless patient Spider |
| Message-ID | <bqt5uc-uh6.ln1@mail.specsol.com> (permalink) |
| References | (7 earlier) <ubvvgb1ro4oss8rbeqtkhe1gtsdgdhugde@4ax.com> <1th5uc-r65.ln1@mail.specsol.com> <a6a0hb5dj8pstv7930cjoolvuovtk5d0bs@4ax.com> <kro5uc-816.ln1@mail.specsol.com> <5be0hbll48ss7rpinvlhvqsvl50god3a6q@4ax.com> |
Cross-posted to 4 groups.
In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote: > jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: > >>In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote: >>> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: >>> >>>>In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>At first I was going to respond to the whole thing then I realized most >>>>>>of it was idiocy like not knowing how disease spreads and denial of >>>>>>all the scholarly work that says there was a pre-columbian population >>>>>>of 50 million to 100 million, 80 o 90 percent of which were killed >>>>>>by European diseseses. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> So you noticed your own delusions. >>>> >>>>No, I quoted three scholarly sources, all of which said essentially >>>>the same thing. >>>> >>> >>> I don't believe I am derided in any of your 'scholarly sources' unless >>> you wrote them yourself. >>> >> >>No, but you certainly are contradicted. >> > > And how is that, chimp? What did I write (not what you read, what I > wrote) that they 'contradict'. That the indiginous peoples were not wiped out by European diseases and that there were few people in pre-columbian Americas. Why ask such a silly question when you said it several times? >> >>>>>> >>>>>>Then I noticed you snipped the important part, so I'll just repost that part. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> You mean the biased part that misstates things? >>>>> >>>> >>>>I know a realist description bothers you space cadet. >>>> >>> >>> I know you wouldn't know a 'realistic description' if it came up and >>> bit you, chimpshit. >>> >> >>I know you can't resist spewing bile and insults. >> > > No doubt you 'know' all sorts of rather silly things. Why, if you > didn't, you wouldn't be able to maintain your "I'm right and everyone > else is wrong and mean to me" attitude. Gaffaw. > >>> >>>>> >>>>>>Establish a new family on Earth: >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Already responded to this part, but I'll add one addition. >>>>> >>>>>>Load the horse drawn wagon the the wife, kids, hand tools, initial >>>>>>provisions for the trip, some caged chickens and a sack of seeds. >>>>>> >>>>>>Find a nice spot near tree and water sources. >>>>>> >>>>>>Plant seeds, cut timber to build cabin,d dig a well so as to not have >>>>>>to walk as far to get water, build a chicken coop, take shelter in the >>>>>>wagon until the cabin is built. >>>>>> >>>>>>Dig a hole and build an outhouse so you don't have to walk to the woods >>>>>>to take a dump. If you forgot to bring a plow, make a wooden one. >>>>>> >>>>>>While waiting for the first crop, forage for wild vegetables, fish, and >>>>>>hunt game and eat some of the eggs from the chickens. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> And probably starve to death if that's your mechanism rather than >>>>> having supplies on hand. >>>> >>>>What part of forage for wild vegetables, fish, and hunt game did you >>>>not understand? >>>> >>> >>> Which part of "not the Garden of Eden" did you not understand? >> >>What part of forage for wild vegetables, fish, and hunt game did you >>not understand? >> > > What part of "not the Garden of Eden" did you not understand? What part of forage for wild vegetables, fish, and hunt game did you not understand? > >> >>While such activities may be far beyond your ability, most people >>before the 20th century were very adept at it. >> > > Yeah, that's why Jamestown had to trade with the natives for food. And > at that they damned near starved to death one year (well, a lot of > them DID starve to death). Yep, the stupid Europeans didn't properly tend to their fields and had to go begging for help from the Bronze Age savages who had a surplus of food. > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starving_Time > >>>>>>If you see any Indians, don't piss them off; try to make friends. >>>>>> >>>>>>All of the tecnonology, other than firearms, is well over a thousand >>>>>>years old. >>>>>> >>>>>>All the stuff you have is hand made and most of it is made of wood. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Except for all the essential tools, which were high tech items in the >>>>> day. >>>> >>>>Nope, the axe, saw, plow, etc. are very, very old technology. >>>> >>> >>> But the ones being carried were not, necessarily. The automobile is >>> 'old technology', but it's changed a lot over the years. >> >>Sure they were old technology, space cadet. >> > > Wrong, chimpshit. > >>The last improvements were made when they started to be made of iron. >> > > Wrong. Just saying wrong does not make it so. Name any improvement to the axe since when they started to be made of iron. The axe is a Stone Age tool. >> >>You are grasping at straws. >> > > Read this and stop being so ignorant. Vast improvements to plows in > colonial times. > > http://www.lib.niu.edu/2001/iht810102.html Yep, in late colonial times. Now about that improvement to the axe. >> >>>>>>The item with the most technology in it is a cast iron cooking pot. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>Establsh a new family on Mars: >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Which won't be done at all the way it was done on Earth, with one >>>>> individual going off by themselves. Now that I've pointed that out, >>>>> you'll claim that Earth colonization doesn't matter and that bringing >>>>> it up is stupid. >>>> >>>>It was usually groups that went off together, but upon arrival, everything >>>>I have said is accurate. >>>> >>>>And the title was "Establish a new family on Earth". >>>> >>> >>> 'A new family on Mars' would move into an existing settlement, so >>> everything you said was pretty much bullshit. >>> >> >>So how many codos are you going to build before the construction workers >>pause and the colonist move in? >> > > 'Construction workers'? We're not talking about suburban Connecticut, > chimpshit. Guys that build shit, grunt labor, whatever you want to call it, space cadet. > >> >>How does that in any way effect what you have to have other than bigger >>and more everything? >> > > It doesn't 'effect' anything, but it does 'affect' a few things, but > in ways that make it easier. You probably already have excess power, > water, and air, because you'd add that stuff in 'blocks'. That means > all you have to do is (potentially) dig a hole, drop an inflatable in, > blow it up, connect the couplings, and cover it all back up with dirt. Yes, just like WWII where all we had to do was beat the Nazi army and navy. > >>>>>> >>>>>>Haul in many tons of technology, materials, tools, food, oxygen, water >>>>>>and repair parts by some means. >>>>>> >>>>>>While working in pressure suits... >>>>>> >>>>>>Install power system. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Self-contained. No 'installation' required. >>>> >>>>So it it going to get out of the transport vehicle, site itself, then >>>>connect itself, no assembly required? >>>> >>> >>> Plugs are 'old technology', chimp. I'm sure even you can operate >>> them. You know, if you would READ the things you're pointed to rather >>> than trying to construct a case for why they don't apply you would not >>> make such stupid statements. >> >>So it it going to get out of the transport vehicle, site itself, then >>connect itself, no assembly required? >> > > Again, you should have read the papers I gave you pointers to instead > of just throwing up objections and excuses for why you don't think > they apply because they don't talk about dogs and diapers. Of course > it's going to do all that but 'connect itself'. Do you never actually > read what is said to you? I suspect your average Mars colonist can > handle hooking up a few fittings. > > Go back and read the Mars Reference Architecture (no, really read it > this time). In situ fuel production that starts years before humans > arrive. Yes, it's going to get out of the transport vehicle, cite > itself, etc. No assembly required. > > Ditto with power, except the people will have to run some cables once > they get there. Reactor lands itself several hundred meters from > where the habitat will be. Yes, it's going to get out of the > transport vehicle, cite itself, etc. When the habitat is in place, > plug in power. Most people that cite themselves are nuts. > > You wouldn't say nearly so many stupid things, Jim, if you ACTUALLY > READ WHAT PEOPLE WRITE AND WHAT THEY POINT YOU TO. > >> >>> >>>>>> >>>>>>Put up a radiation sheilded structure or bury a non-shielded staructure. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> In other words, 'dig a hole'. >>>> >>>>Yes, a very big hole, put your shelter in in, and cover it up, all >>>>while in a pressure suit. >>>> >>> >>> Digging holes is 'old technology'. >> >>Not on Mars unless you are going to have Chinese workers in pressure >>suits. >> > > How long have we been digging holes, Jim? Here, educate yourself so > you can try to stop saying so much stupid shit: > > http://www.ritchiewiki.com/wiki/index.php/Excavation > > We've had excavating machinery and explosives for over a century. It's > 19th century technology, chimp. Of course we'll use more compact and > modern equipment on Mars, but it's still simple stuff. Yeah, sure, space cadet. > >>>>> All of the following is pretty much also self-contained and automated, >>>>> so all your 'install' and 'set up' is pretty much non-existent. >>>> >>>>Utter nonsense. >>>> >>> >>> Good of you to label your following output, but it wasn't necessary. >> >>Nope, the utter nonsese is your hand waving away the complexity of it all. >> > > There is no 'complexity of it all' except in your obstructionist mind. Yeah, sure, space cadet. > >>>> >>>>None that stuff is going to get out of the transport vehicle, site >>>>itself, then connect itself, no assembly required. >>>> >>> >>> Chimp, you know where you want to put it (the analog to your 'pick a >>> place with forests and water'), so you land it there. Sited. Yes, it >>> will 'unload itself'. Out of the transport vehicle. As for your >>> "connect itself", you're just being intellectually dishonest. I said >>> you'd have to plug in power and water conduits (also oxygen). Perhaps >>> that's too challenging for you, but most of us can handle plugging >>> things in. >> >>Yeah, sure, space cadet. >> > > You never actually read ANYTHING, do you, chimpshit? Of course not, space cadet. > >> >>Why would a power system have wheels and be able to drive itself, space >>cadet? >> > > Who said it had to, chimpshit? Go read the Mars Reference Mission > again (no, REALLY read it and see how the power systems work). > >> >>What if the ground is uneven and the slightest bit rocky, space cadet? >> > > Self-leveling jacks, chimpshit. OLD technology. > >> >>Oh, I know, the autonomous bull dozer rolls out first and levels everything. >> > > Yes, as usual you know all sorts of stupid shit that you make up. > >>>>>> >>>>>>Install pressurization system with oxygen tanks and CO2 scrubbers. >>>>>> >>>>>>Install water tanks and plumbing system with toilets and refuse system. >>>>>> >>>>>>Install heating system. >>>>>> >>>>>>Install water recyling system and refuse to fertilizer system. >>>>>> >>>>>>Set up system to generate oxygen from rocks and pipe it into the structue. >>>>>> >>>>>>Set up system to mine ice, melt it, purify it, and pipe it into the >>>>>>structure tanks. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> So to this point your 'install' and 'set up' amounts to plugging in >>>>> some power and water conduits. >>>> >>>>Site leveling, movement, and connections at the minimum assuming >>>>everything is pre assembled, all while in a pressure suit. >>>> >>> >>> You don't need to do 'site leveling'. The automated equipment is >>> self-leveling. You need to plug some connectors together. I can >>> believe that's too hard for you, but then we'll be sending normal >>> human beings to Mars, not you. >> >>Yeah, sure, space cadet. >> > > Indeed, chimpshit. > >> >>And the AI that drives the water plant also makes a good cup of Earl >>Grey. >> > > You don't 'drive' anywhere, chimpshit. You just drop the stuff where > you want it in the first place. Pick up the trasport rocket and shake... > And even if you do have to 'drive' it, you know we have autonomous > vehicles already, right? And we already have remote operated vehicles > on Mars (and that gets a lot easier once you take the lightspeed delay > out by actually being on site). > >>>>> >>>>> What follows only applies if you intend to farm. Jim may not be >>>>> aware, but we've moved away from agrarian societies over the last >>>>> several centuries. >>>> >>>>The space cadet may not be aware, but we moved away from agrarian societies >>>>at the end of the 19th century when farm machinery was invented and >>>>farming became much less labor intensive. >>>> >>> >>> The chimpshit may not be aware, but we have all sorts of agricultural >>> methods that have been developed since then and it probably hasn't >>> occurred to him that "less labor intensive" is what I'm talking about >>> and he's objecting to as not possible. >>> >> >>There go those voices in your head again, space cadet, I never said >>anything about not possible. >> > > Oh, I see now, chimpshit. All your made up barriers are to > demonstrate how EASY it is. Wow, how could we have missed that? YOU keep saying I said impossible, which I have never said, space cadet. >> >>>>The space cadet may not be aware, but the priorities on Mars would be >>>>to ensure a constant supply of air, water, and food, in that order. >>>> >>> >>> The chimpshit may not be aware, but the only one of those that is even >>> slightly complicated is the last one (and only because of the space >>> required). The chimpshit may also not realize that since you bring >>> years worth of food with you when you come, you have time to work on >>> the whole 'local food production' problem. It's not like you have to >>> solve it next Tuesday. >>> >> >>There go those voices in your head again, space cadet, I never said >>anything about next Tuesday. >> > > Oh, I see now, chimpshit. All your made up barriers are to > demonstrate how EASY it is. Wow, how could we have missed that? Because you are a starry eyed space cadet. > >>> >>>>>> >>>>>>Set up pressurized environment to grow food and connect to the power, >>>>>>water, and oxygen system. >>>>>> >>>>>>Plant seeds. >>>>>> >>>>>>While waiting for the first crop, eat the tons of provisions you brought >>>>>>with you. >>>>>> >>>>>>Prey nothing breaks and if it does that you have a repair part. >>>>>> >>>>>>The oldest technology you have is mid 20th century. >>>>>> >>>>>>Everything you have is made by machines in factories. >>>>>> >>>>>>The raw materials for the things you have had to be gathered from all >>>>>>over the Earth. >>>>>> >>>>>>Aluminum, for example, comes from Australia, Brazil, China, India, Guinea, >>>>>>Indonesia, Jamaica, Russia and Suriname, but not Pittsburg. >>>>>> >>>>>>The lowest technology items you have are your aluminum alloy cooking utensils. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> You can't cook in cast iron anymore? Wow, who knew? >>>> >>>>Sure you can, but only an idiot would chose cast iron over aluminum for >>>>Mars if for no other reason than the weight penalty. >>>> >>> >>> When you're moving a hundred tonnes at a time, is that really an >>> issue? I don't think so, but of course Jimp The Chimp needed to find >>> a barrier to throw up... >> >>Sure it is an issue, space cadet, everything will be optimized to be as >>light as possible while maintaining functionality. >> > > Why? You only need to do that if boost is expensive and rare. Nope, even if cheap you want to optimize the total amount of crap you can send at once. > >> >>To do otherwise is blazingly stupid even for you. >> > > No, thinking that's necessary is blazingly stupid. No wonder you > cannot conceive of how a Mars colony would work. Sure I can conceive of how a Mars colony would work, what I can't conceive is how it would ever be paid for. >> >>Do you think all the structures will be built of steel for cost or >>aluminum for weight? >> > > I think that's a blazingly stupid question. The answer is 'neither, > and not for either of those reasons'. Blow up dolls do not solve all problems, space cadet. -- Jim Pennino
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Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-12 15:28 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-12 23:07 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-12 22:05 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-13 17:51 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-13 12:53 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-13 20:31 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-13 18:54 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-14 03:22 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-13 21:39 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-14 18:01 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 13:39 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-14 22:24 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 16:53 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-15 00:22 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 18:28 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-15 01:47 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 20:23 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-15 04:35 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 22:49 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-15 21:32 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-15 15:48 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-15 23:43 +0000
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