Re: Quantum radar will expose stealth aircraft

From	Sergio <invalid@invalid.com>
Newsgroups	sci.military.naval, sci.physics
Subject	Re: Quantum radar will expose stealth aircraft
Date	2018-04-26 00:42 -0500
Organization	Aioe.org NNTP Server
Message-ID	<pbrorj$1pus$1@gioia.aioe.org> (permalink)
References	(4 earlier) <pbo8cs$6tk$1@dont-email.me> <pbq6eb$1gnp$2@gioia.aioe.org> <ahg1ed1u7m5ritd5oqh09t5cpo97u8kdcq@4ax.com> <pbqvgq$2fb$1@dont-email.me> <0ai2ed5vv7p7poiu5sd8l7fpbct434oiep@4ax.com>

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On 4/25/2018 11:29 PM, Fred J. McCall wrote:
> "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid_chris_thomasson@invalid.invalid> wrote
> on Wed, 25 Apr 2018 15:29:45 -0700:
> 
>> On 4/25/2018 11:05 AM, Fred J. McCall wrote:
>>> Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> wrote on Wed, 25 Apr 2018 10:21:50 -0500:
>>>
>>>> On 4/24/2018 4:42 PM, Chris M. Thomasson wrote:
>>>>> On 4/24/2018 1:50 PM, Chris M. Thomasson wrote:
>>>>>>    On 4/23/2018 11:17 PM, Juergen Nieveler wrote:
>>>>>>> On 24.04.2018 07:17, Chris M. Thomasson wrote:
>>>>>>>> Will taking off in an F16 soon be equal to taking off in an F22 wrt
>>>>>>>> the fact that they can both be seen!?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I doubt it will happen "soon"... but it's a stern reminder that
>>>>>>> stealth technology is just a bet against the ingeniousness of physics
>>>>>>> grad students in the next 5 decades...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That has to be interesting to any pilot. They might find themselves up
>>>>>> against a shi% load of active SAM sites. Ahh, well, the SAMS that are
>>>>>> left after the initial barrages of HARM's and JSOW's are fired off by
>>>>>> coalition aircraft.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AGM-88_HARM
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AGM-154_Joint_Standoff_Weapon
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The HARMS should target the SAMS, and the JSOW's should make the SAMS
>>>>>> fire off at projected phantom targets.
>>>>>
>>>>> Love it:
>>>>>
>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AGM-154_Joint_Standoff_Weapon#/media/File:AGM-154_03.jpg
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ;^)
>>>>>
>>>
>>> I'll just note that HARMs can't target SAMs.  They can only target the
>>> radars.  
>>
>> Argh! Sorry about that. You are correct. Well, if a SAM's radars are 
>> severely damaged and/or outright destroyed, well, it is kind of rendered 
>> into a highly degraded and somewhat worthless state, in a sense?
>>
> 
> Yep, but if you leave the missiles intact they can just drive in
> another radar.


SAM 6 had terminal IR guidance

> 
>>
>>>
>>> Hence the use of JSOW on the missile emplacements.
>>>
>>
>> Iirc, JSOW can project phantom radar signatures of coalition aircraft 
>> and cause the SAM to fire at them. Then, finally, the JSOW can choose 
>> where to perform its "final mission", to destroy a target.
>>
> 
> Nope.  I think you're thinking of MALD, which looks rather like JSOW
> but is much smaller and has a motor.
> 
>>
>>>>>> JSOW saturation can deplete a SAM of missiles and might force it to be
>>>>>> reloaded. HARM saturation should destroy its radar systems.
>>
>> Ahh. I knew I wrote about HARM's destroying radars. Sorry for any 
>> confusion, and thanks for your correction on my previous statement.
>>
> 
> The idea behind HARM is that it's so fast you don't need to do
> saturation attacks, hence the 'H' in the name.
> 
>>
>>>>>> However, perhaps "in the future", the damn enemy has an experimental
>>>>>> weapon that is "theoretically" immune to HARM and JSOW, and can easily
>>>>>> see and target F-22's. It can also tell the difference between F-16,
>>>>>> F-15, F-22 and F-35 in real time and act accordingly... Oh SHI%! The
>>>>>> coalition must be trying to prevent the enemy from engaging within
>>>>>> this line of experimentation.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> At least the F-22 is also a superb plane on top of being stealthy, so
>>>>>>> it could still fight on even terms with other fighters with the
>>>>>>> stealth advantage removed.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Agreed. At least it has that handy Vulcan Cannon for a knife fight.
>>>>
>>>> yep => short range, inaccurate
>>>>
>>>
>>> USAF F-35 also carries a built-in cannon.  It just doesn't carry very
>>> many rounds for it.
>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Imvvho, the pilots of an F-22 should not totally rely on hyper
>>>>>> advanced missile attack scenarios. I know they can fire on targets
>>>>>> from a long range via Phoenix, or medium range using AMRAAM. However,
>>>>>> even the newest versions of those missiles can fail to hit their
>>>>>> targets...
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> aircraft have very good countermeasures, IR, microwave, decoys, flares
>>>>
>>>
>>> Phoenix is dead.  The last airplane that could fire it was the F-14
>>> Tomcat.  USAF never owned any even when it was around, so it certainly
>>> was never a provision for F-22.
>>>
>>
>> Does the F-22 carry long range missiles, or just medium range?
>>
> 
> AIM-120 is as good as it gets for pretty much everybody these days.
> Phoenix required an AWG-9 radar.  The only aircraft to ever have that
> were the USN version of the F-111 (F-111B) which was never produced
> and the F-14 Tomcat.  That's not as bad as it might seem, though,
> since the AIM-120D can reach out almost 100 miles and the cruise
> missile carrying bomber air defense role for the Navy is much less
> required than it used to be.

F-111 were maintance nightmare, poor electronics packaging.

> 
>>
>>>>>>> The F-35 is a different topic...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Afaict, F-22's most likely can eat up F-35's for breakfast, lunch and
>>>>>> possibly dinner? Can the F-35 carry the newest Sidewinders? Does it
>>>>>> require an external pylon? If so, there goes stealth. Damn.
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> sidewinders need external pylon as they have to lock onto target before
>>>> launch
>>>>
>>>
>>> Not on an F-22 they don't.  On an F-22 they launch from internal bays.
>>>
>>
>> You are right. Thanks again Fred. :^)
>>
> 
> I was in the missile business until a few years ago and do still keep
> some track of what's going on, so I'm not horribly out of date yet.
> 

I used to load sidewinders a while back

Thread

Quantum radar will expose stealth aircraft George <george.core@yahoo.com> - 2018-04-23 13:38 +0000
  Re: Quantum radar will expose stealth aircraft Dhu on Gate <campbell@neotext.ca> - 2018-04-23 15:45 +0000
    Re: Quantum radar will expose stealth aircraft Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2018-04-23 15:45 -0500
      Re: Quantum radar will expose stealth aircraft benj <benj@nobody.net> - 2018-04-23 22:47 -0400
  Re: Quantum radar will expose stealth aircraft Double-A <double-a3@hush.com> - 2018-04-23 14:06 -0700
  Re: Quantum radar will expose stealth aircraft Steve BH <sbharris@gmail.com> - 2018-04-23 21:57 -0700
  Re: Quantum radar will expose stealth aircraft "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid_chris_thomasson@invalid.invalid> - 2018-04-23 22:17 -0700
    Re: Quantum radar will expose stealth aircraft Juergen Nieveler <juergen@nieveler.org> - 2018-04-24 08:17 +0200
      Re: Quantum radar will expose stealth aircraft "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid_chris_thomasson@invalid.invalid> - 2018-04-24 13:50 -0700
        Re: Quantum radar will expose stealth aircraft "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid_chris_thomasson@invalid.invalid> - 2018-04-24 14:42 -0700
          Re: Quantum radar will expose stealth aircraft Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2018-04-25 10:21 -0500
            Re: Quantum radar will expose stealth aircraft Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2018-04-25 11:05 -0700
              Re: Quantum radar will expose stealth aircraft Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2018-04-25 14:06 -0500
                Re: Quantum radar will expose stealth aircraft Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2018-04-25 13:34 -0700
                Re: Quantum radar will expose stealth aircraft jonathan <WriteInstead@gmail.com> - 2018-04-25 19:02 -0400
                Re: Quantum radar will expose stealth aircraft Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2018-04-25 22:55 -0700
                Re: Quantum radar will expose stealth aircraft Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2018-04-27 18:56 +0100
                Re: Quantum radar will expose stealth aircraft Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2018-04-27 18:37 +0100
              Re: Quantum radar will expose stealth aircraft "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid_chris_thomasson@invalid.invalid> - 2018-04-25 15:29 -0700
                Re: Quantum radar will expose stealth aircraft Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2018-04-25 21:29 -0700
                Re: Quantum radar will expose stealth aircraft Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2018-04-26 00:42 -0500
                Re: Quantum radar will expose stealth aircraft "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid_chris_thomasson@invalid.invalid> - 2018-04-26 22:25 -0700
                Re: Quantum radar will expose stealth aircraft Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2018-04-27 02:58 -0700
                Re: Quantum radar will expose stealth aircraft "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid_chris_thomasson@invalid.invalid> - 2018-05-01 13:52 -0700
                Re: Quantum radar will expose stealth aircraft Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2018-05-01 17:26 -0500
                Re: Quantum radar will expose stealth aircraft Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2018-05-01 17:57 -0700
                Re: Quantum radar will expose stealth aircraft "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid_chris_thomasson@invalid.invalid> - 2018-05-01 19:43 -0700
                Re: Quantum radar will expose stealth aircraft Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2018-05-02 07:33 -0700
                Re: Quantum radar will expose stealth aircraft Juergen Nieveler <juergen@nieveler.org> - 2018-04-27 09:17 +0200
                Re: Quantum radar will expose stealth aircraft Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2018-04-27 03:03 -0700
                Re: Quantum radar will expose stealth aircraft Juergen Nieveler <juergen@nieveler.org> - 2018-04-27 14:27 +0200
                Re: Quantum radar will expose stealth aircraft Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2018-04-27 11:27 -0500
                Re: Quantum radar will expose stealth aircraft Peter Stickney <p_stickney@verizon.net> - 2018-04-27 16:50 -0400
        Re: Quantum radar will expose stealth aircraft "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid_chris_thomasson@invalid.invalid> - 2018-04-24 14:52 -0700
      Re: Quantum radar will expose stealth aircraft "dott.Piergiorgio" <chiedetemelo@ask.me> - 2018-04-29 10:16 +0200
  Re: Quantum radar will expose stealth aircraft abelard <abelard3@abelard.org> - 2018-04-24 11:56 +0200
    Re: Quantum radar will expose stealth aircraft Double-A <double-a3@hush.com> - 2018-05-01 12:42 -0700

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