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Groups > sci.physics > #570812
| From | jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com |
|---|---|
| Newsgroups | rec.arts.sf.science, sci.astro, sci.physics, sci.space.policy |
| Subject | Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon |
| Date | 2016-04-15 23:43 +0000 |
| Organization | A noiseless patient Spider |
| Message-ID | <oua8uc-5ge.ln1@mail.specsol.com> (permalink) |
| References | (7 earlier) <ikk0hb9rvffcg8a9ko4kneqcuitf13dvd6@4ax.com> <0l76uc-1g7.ln1@mail.specsol.com> <rbv0hbtrcpm30jcdhai8covba395t4gmm3@4ax.com> <1938uc-jfd.ln1@mail.specsol.com> <4bq2hbhpf6m3vbe1dvmep2tnsakuasghsi@4ax.com> |
Cross-posted to 4 groups.
In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote: > jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: > >>In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote: >>> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: >>> >>>>In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>At first I was going to respond to the whole thing then I realized most >>>>>>>>>>>>of it was idiocy like not knowing how disease spreads and denial of >>>>>>>>>>>>all the scholarly work that says there was a pre-columbian population >>>>>>>>>>>>of 50 million to 100 million, 80 o 90 percent of which were killed >>>>>>>>>>>>by European diseseses. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> So you noticed your own delusions. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>No, I quoted three scholarly sources, all of which said essentially >>>>>>>>>>the same thing. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I don't believe I am derided in any of your 'scholarly sources' unless >>>>>>>>> you wrote them yourself. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>No, but you certainly are contradicted. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> And how is that, chimp? What did I write (not what you read, what I >>>>>>> wrote) that they 'contradict'. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>That the indiginous peoples were not wiped out by European diseases ... >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Not what I said. Go read it again. >>>> >>>>Yes, you did, several times. >>>> >>> >>> Liar. I'm not responsible for what you, in your immense stupidity, >>> substitute for what I wrote. >>> >> >>Liar, liar, pants on fire... >> > > Let's get this straight. I didn't say what you claim I said and *I* > am a liar? Yeah, right.... So you have never said that the indiginous peoples were not wiped out by European diseases? > >>> >>>>>> >>>>>>... and that there were few people in pre-columbian Americas. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Not what I said. Go read it again. >>>> >>>>Yes, you did, several times. >>>> >>> >>> Liar. I'm not responsible for what you, in your immense stupidity, >>> substitute for what I wrote. >> >>Liar, liar, pants on fire... >> > > Let's get this straight. I didn't say what you claim I said and *I* > am a liar? Yeah, right.... So you have never said that the indiginous peoples were not wiped out by European diseases? > >>> >>>>>> >>>>>>Why ask such a silly question when you said it several times? >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Because I knew when you said it that what you came back with wouldn't >>>>> be what I said. You really don't handle English very well at all, do >>>>> you? Let me help you out just a bit. >>>>> >>>>> What I said was something like "many of the native peoples' died >>>>> before they ever met a European". >>>> >>>>Weasle wording; the mass die off started with the Europeans. >>>> >>> >>> It's not "weasle workding", you stupid bastard. Words mean what they >>> mean. Read what people write, not what your asshole personality wants >>> them to have said. >> >>The mass die off started with the Europeans. >> > > It's not "weasel wording", you stupid bastard. Words mean what they > mean. Learn to read what people write, not what your asshole > personality wants them to have said. So you have never said that the indiginous peoples were not wiped out by European diseases? >>> >>>>> Note that that is nothing like what >>>>> you claim I said, unless you believe that there is some reason that >>>>> disease cannot travel from native to native without an intervening >>>>> European contact. >>>> >>>>The diseases that caused the mass die off were non-existant in the >>>>Americas before the Europeans arrived. >>>> >>> >>> Diseases spontaneously mutate. >> >>The diseases that caused the mass die off were non-existant in the >>Americas before the Europeans arrived. >> > > Which gives you 'coincident in time'. > >> >>You don't spontaneously get bubonic plague, chicken pox, pneumonic plague, >>cholera, diphtheria, influenza, measles, scarlet fever, smallpox, typhus, >>tuberculosis, and whooping cough. >> > > And there's no evidence that any of those were the diseases behind the > die off, since there were no doctors around to see it happen. So a denialist to the bitter end? And there WERE people around that were familiar with the symptoms of the diseases. >> >>http://nativeamericannetroots.net/diary/325 >> > > Cultural propaganda, not science. So a denialist to the bitter end? How many links would you like? >> >>>>> What I said was "European explorers were surprised at how sparse the >>>>> native population was". Note that this is not the same thing AT ALL >>>>> as "there were few people in pre-columbian Americas". In fact, it's >>>>> talking about POST Columbian America. >>>> >>>>Which if flat wrong; European explorers were surprised at how many >>>>people there were. >>>> >>> >>> Cite? >> >>http://www.jcs-group.com/oldwest/america/columbian.html >> >>"According to first person accounts, the lands visited by explorers and >>early settlers were often densely populated." >> > > "For many Americans, the tradi-tional imagery of pre-Columbian North > America is one of small or medium sized native tribes living in vast, > primeval forests or on rolling plains largely untouched by human > hands. The first part of this evocative description is relatively > accurate, since settlers moving West often traveled through large > swaths of unoccupied land, encountering native tribes only > occasionally, if at all." > > Your cite seems to support me. Some more? Taken out of context it does. > "An absence of major settle-ments and large tribes convinced many 19th > century American scholars and settlers that the continent had been > largely empty prior to the arrival of European explorers." > > "...but it appears disease outbreaks spread through native > populations, perhaps even from coast to coast. As one tribe suffered > losses, the few survivors fled and were adopted by other tribes. These > survivors probably brought sickness with them, infecting their adopted > community with the same contagion. The consequences are obvious." > > Yes, the consequences ARE obvious and they are precisely what I > stated; most of the natives who died had never met a European. So what, that was NEVER the point. The point was, and is, and always has been, the diseases were introduced by Europeans. How diseases spread is taught in grade school. > "But if the pre-Columbian native population was so large, why did > North America appear as pristine forest to new settlers?" > > Why, for precisely the reason I said. Most of the population die off > was before Europeans got to them. Before LARGE NUMBERS of Europeans got to see them. > "As they spread further West, settlers moved onto lands that looked as > if they'd never been set-tled. Nearly all evidence of human habitation > had vanished following the decimation of native tribes by disease." > > Yeah, that's precisely what *I* said. The Chimp thinks my statement, > precisely echoed by his own cite, is "weasel worded" Nope, you keep saying that NO Europeans saw lots of people, while the early explorers that brought in the diseases did, and that the Europeans did not bring in the diseases which every reference to the subject says they did. >>> >>>> >>>>More weasel words. >>>> >>> >>> It's not "weasel words", you stupid bastard. Words mean what they >>> mean. Read what people write, not what your asshole personality wants >>> them to have said. >>> >>>>The explorers were the start of post Columbian America. >>>> >>>>> While there is no evidence I am aware of other than rough coincidence >>>>> in time that the disease(s) were from Europeans, let's pretend for a >>>>> moment that that's correct. Let's examine how what I said is exactly >>>>> correct and how you, in your eagerness to accuse me of saying things I >>>>> never said, actually read things I didn't write. >>>> >>>>You mean other than they were non-existant until the first Europeans >>>>arrived? >>>> >>> >>> Coincidence does not prove causality. >>> >> >>http://nativeamericannetroots.net/diary/325 >> > > Cultural propaganda, not scientific evidence. A denier to the bitter end. How many links do you want? >>>>> Diseases move faster than settlers or even explorers, Chimp. So we >>>>> get that initial European contact. One or more natives get something >>>>> that they have no resistance to. They go back to their villages and >>>>> expose a bunch of other natives (who have never met a European). Some >>>>> of those folks travel in various directions (a relatively large >>>>> population is going to mean travel and trade) and expose yet more >>>>> natives who perhaps have not even HEARD of Europeans except as >>>>> rumours. This goes on. 90% of the native population expires, most of >>>>> them never having met, seen, or even heard of Europeans. >>>> >>>>You are the one that kept babbling about MEETING a Eurpean, not me. >>>> >>> >>> Yes, I said what I said, not what you pretend I said. >>> >>>> >>>>All I said was the Europeans brought the diseases. >>>> >>> >>> Unproven. >> >>http://nativeamericannetroots.net/diary/325 >> > > Cultural propaganda, not evidence. A denier to the bitter end. How many links do you want? > >> >>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_American_disease_and_epidemics >> > > Since most of the natives who died did so before they ever met > Europeans, there's no evidence for what was behind that die off. A denier to the bitter end. How many links do you want? >>> >>>>> Meanwhile, Europeans, who are only present in small numbers, start to >>>>> explore and/or settle. By the time they get any appreciable distance >>>>> from the site of initial contact, much of the native population has >>>>> died off. The Europeans are surprised at how sparsely populated the >>>>> land is, not knowing that 90% of the people who lived there not all >>>>> that long before have disappeared. >>>> >>>>Finally got something correct. >>>> >>> >>> Got it all correct all along, you incredibly stupid twat. >>> >> >>Nope, head firmly up ass. >> > > Yes, I know yours is. > >>> >>>>> >>>>> And there's the problem, Jim. You are so eager to pick fights with >>>>> people that you read things they've never written in order to do so. >>>>> That's well beyond merely being the asshole you present as and into >>>>> pathological mental illness. And it's always the other person's >>>>> fault, whether it's you misreading something, you having some problem >>>>> with your newsfeed, or anything else. It's NEVER Jimp. >>>> >>>>Blow it out your ass, lier. >>>> >>> >>> You're the one making shit up and pretending I said it, you hopelessly >>> stupid twat. >>> >>>>> Well, this was all you. You made shit up I never said and then >>>>> proceeded to act as if I'd said it and insult me because YOU were >>>>> stupid. >>>> >>>>Nope, you are denying what you said several times now that you are >>>>backed against the wall. >>>> >>> >>> Liar. Go back and find me saying what you claim I said (as opposed to >>> what I say I said). Go ahead. I'll wait. But you can't do it >>> BECAUSE YOU'RE A LIAR. >>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>Then I noticed you snipped the important part, so I'll just repost that part. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> You mean the biased part that misstates things? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>I know a realist description bothers you space cadet. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I know you wouldn't know a 'realistic description' if it came up and >>>>>>>>> bit you, chimpshit. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>I know you can't resist spewing bile and insults. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> No doubt you 'know' all sorts of rather silly things. Why, if you >>>>>>> didn't, you wouldn't be able to maintain your "I'm right and everyone >>>>>>> else is wrong and mean to me" attitude. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>Gaffaw. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> See above. And below. >>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>Establish a new family on Earth: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Already responded to this part, but I'll add one addition. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>Load the horse drawn wagon the the wife, kids, hand tools, initial >>>>>>>>>>>>provisions for the trip, some caged chickens and a sack of seeds. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>Find a nice spot near tree and water sources. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>Plant seeds, cut timber to build cabin,d dig a well so as to not have >>>>>>>>>>>>to walk as far to get water, build a chicken coop, take shelter in the >>>>>>>>>>>>wagon until the cabin is built. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>Dig a hole and build an outhouse so you don't have to walk to the woods >>>>>>>>>>>>to take a dump. If you forgot to bring a plow, make a wooden one. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>While waiting for the first crop, forage for wild vegetables, fish, and >>>>>>>>>>>>hunt game and eat some of the eggs from the chickens. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> And probably starve to death if that's your mechanism rather than >>>>>>>>>>> having supplies on hand. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>What part of forage for wild vegetables, fish, and hunt game did you >>>>>>>>>>not understand? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Which part of "not the Garden of Eden" did you not understand? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>What part of forage for wild vegetables, fish, and hunt game did you >>>>>>>>not understand? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> What part of "not the Garden of Eden" did you not understand? >>>>>> >>>>>>What part of forage for wild vegetables, fish, and hunt game did you >>>>>>not understand? >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Which part of Jamestown damned near starved to death and could do any >>>>> of that for themselves but needed natives to do it for them? >>>> >>>>What part of stupid and too busy looking for gold? >>>> >>> >>> Which part of liar and liar? >>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>While such activities may be far beyond your ability, most people >>>>>>>>before the 20th century were very adept at it. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Yeah, that's why Jamestown had to trade with the natives for food. And >>>>>>> at that they damned near starved to death one year (well, a lot of >>>>>>> them DID starve to death). >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>Yep, the stupid Europeans didn't properly tend to their fields and >>>>>>had to go begging for help from the Bronze Age savages who had a >>>>>>surplus of food. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Nope. Jesus Christ, man, the cite is RIGHT DOWN THERE. Read it and >>>>> stop saying ignorant shite. >>>> >>>>So how is it that the Bronze Age savages had a surplus of food when >>>>the Europeans had a deficit? >>>> >>> >>> Because the bronze age savages had had several hundred thousand years >>> to adjust, you remarkly stupid twat. >> >>Nope, they only had a few thousand years, you remarkly stupid twat. >> > > So you think indigenous peoples in the New World arrived here as late > as 3000 BC or so? According to scientists, you're only off by 10,000 > years or so. > > [Yeah, my figure was way high, but yours is way low and silly anyway.] Your words from above "the bronze age savages". The bronze age savages only went back a couple of thousand years. The first humanoid to show up was much earlier than that. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starving_Time >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>If you see any Indians, don't piss them off; try to make friends. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>All of the tecnonology, other than firearms, is well over a thousand >>>>>>>>>>>>years old. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>All the stuff you have is hand made and most of it is made of wood. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Except for all the essential tools, which were high tech items in the >>>>>>>>>>> day. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>Nope, the axe, saw, plow, etc. are very, very old technology. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> But the ones being carried were not, necessarily. The automobile is >>>>>>>>> 'old technology', but it's changed a lot over the years. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Sure they were old technology, space cadet. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Wrong, chimpshit. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>The last improvements were made when they started to be made of iron. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Wrong. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>Just saying wrong does not make it so. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> No, it BEING wrong makes it so. >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>Name any improvement to the axe since when they started to be made of iron. >>>>>> >>>>>>The axe is a Stone Age tool. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I point out you are on your ass with regard to plows so now you need >>>>> to pick a fight over axes. Pathetic, Jim... >>>> >>>>Very minor improvements in plows during the colonial period, still >>>>waiting for ANY improvements in the axe. >>>> >>> >>> So now what you've been claiming all along is admitted to be bullshit? >>> And I already answered your question about axes. >>> >>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>You are grasping at straws. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Read this and stop being so ignorant. Vast improvements to plows in >>>>>>> colonial times. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://www.lib.niu.edu/2001/iht810102.html >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>Yep, in late colonial times. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> It's just hopeless talking to you, Jim. Reality just never really >>>>> penetrates, does it? You start from 'stone age no improvements' and >>>>> then when you're proven wrong it's like, "Well, it didn't happen on >>>>> TUESDAY". >>>> >>>>Agin minor improvements, still waiting for improvements in the axe, then >>>>we can go on to all the other tools. >>>> >>> >>> You're just hopelessly stupid, Jimp. >>> >>>>>> >>>>>>Now about that improvement to the axe. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> You brought it up. What about them? >>>>> >>>>> Which one do you want to talk about, the felling axe, the splitting >>>>> axe, the broad axe, the adze, the hatchet, the carpenter's axe, the >>>>> hand axe, or the mortising axe? Oh, wait. None of those were really >>>>> 'stone age tools', so I guess they are ALL improvements to the axe to >>>>> suit it for various purposes. And those are just a few. >>>> >>>>Time of invention for each? >>>> >>> >>> Post stone age, you hopelessly stupid twat. >>> >> >>Post stone age is LONG before the colonial period, hopelessly stupid twat. >> > > Wriggle, wriggle, little chimp... Of course, Stone Age, Bronze Age, Iron Age; they are all the same. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>The item with the most technology in it is a cast iron cooking pot. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>Establsh a new family on Mars: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Which won't be done at all the way it was done on Earth, with one >>>>>>>>>>> individual going off by themselves. Now that I've pointed that out, >>>>>>>>>>> you'll claim that Earth colonization doesn't matter and that bringing >>>>>>>>>>> it up is stupid. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>It was usually groups that went off together, but upon arrival, everything >>>>>>>>>>I have said is accurate. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>And the title was "Establish a new family on Earth". >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> 'A new family on Mars' would move into an existing settlement, so >>>>>>>>> everything you said was pretty much bullshit. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>So how many codos are you going to build before the construction workers >>>>>>>>pause and the colonist move in? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 'Construction workers'? We're not talking about suburban Connecticut, >>>>>>> chimpshit. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>Guys that build shit, grunt labor, whatever you want to call it, space >>>>>>cadet. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Not required, Chimp. Shit is 'built' when it arrives (at least >>>>> initially) and you just plug it together. >>>> >>>>Yeah, sure, space cadet. >>>> >>> >>> Poor, stupid Jimp. >>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>How does that in any way effect what you have to have other than bigger >>>>>>>>and more everything? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> It doesn't 'effect' anything, but it does 'affect' a few things, but >>>>>>> in ways that make it easier. You probably already have excess power, >>>>>>> water, and air, because you'd add that stuff in 'blocks'. That means >>>>>>> all you have to do is (potentially) dig a hole, drop an inflatable in, >>>>>>> blow it up, connect the couplings, and cover it all back up with dirt. >>>>>> >>>>>>Yes, just like WWII where all we had to do was beat the Nazi army and >>>>>>navy. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> You're hopelessly stupid. >>>> >>>>You're totally starry eyed. >>>> >>> >>> You're hopelessly stupid. >>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>Haul in many tons of technology, materials, tools, food, oxygen, water >>>>>>>>>>>>and repair parts by some means. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>While working in pressure suits... >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>Install power system. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Self-contained. No 'installation' required. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>So it it going to get out of the transport vehicle, site itself, then >>>>>>>>>>connect itself, no assembly required? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Plugs are 'old technology', chimp. I'm sure even you can operate >>>>>>>>> them. You know, if you would READ the things you're pointed to rather >>>>>>>>> than trying to construct a case for why they don't apply you would not >>>>>>>>> make such stupid statements. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>So it it going to get out of the transport vehicle, site itself, then >>>>>>>>connect itself, no assembly required? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Again, you should have read the papers I gave you pointers to instead >>>>>>> of just throwing up objections and excuses for why you don't think >>>>>>> they apply because they don't talk about dogs and diapers. Of course >>>>>>> it's going to do all that but 'connect itself'. Do you never actually >>>>>>> read what is said to you? I suspect your average Mars colonist can >>>>>>> handle hooking up a few fittings. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Go back and read the Mars Reference Architecture (no, really read it >>>>>>> this time). In situ fuel production that starts years before humans >>>>>>> arrive. Yes, it's going to get out of the transport vehicle, cite >>>>>>> itself, etc. No assembly required. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Ditto with power, except the people will have to run some cables once >>>>>>> they get there. Reactor lands itself several hundred meters from >>>>>>> where the habitat will be. Yes, it's going to get out of the >>>>>>> transport vehicle, cite itself, etc. When the habitat is in place, >>>>>>> plug in power. >>>>>> >>>>>>Most people that cite themselves are nuts. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Yes, which is why I think you do it so frequently. >>>> >>>>See your text above, fool. >>>> >>> >>> See your text above, you hopelessly stupid twat. >>> >>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> You wouldn't say nearly so many stupid things, Jim, if you ACTUALLY >>>>>>> READ WHAT PEOPLE WRITE AND WHAT THEY POINT YOU TO. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>Put up a radiation sheilded structure or bury a non-shielded staructure. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> In other words, 'dig a hole'. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>Yes, a very big hole, put your shelter in in, and cover it up, all >>>>>>>>>>while in a pressure suit. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Digging holes is 'old technology'. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Not on Mars unless you are going to have Chinese workers in pressure >>>>>>>>suits. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> How long have we been digging holes, Jim? Here, educate yourself so >>>>>>> you can try to stop saying so much stupid shit: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://www.ritchiewiki.com/wiki/index.php/Excavation >>>>>>> >>>>>>> We've had excavating machinery and explosives for over a century. It's >>>>>>> 19th century technology, chimp. Of course we'll use more compact and >>>>>>> modern equipment on Mars, but it's still simple stuff. >>>>>> >>>>>>Yeah, sure, space cadet. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I'm sorry it's not simple for you, Chimp, but you're hopelessly >>>>> stupid. >>>> >>>>Yeah, sure, space cadet. >>>> >>> >>> Hopelessly stupid, Chimp. >>> >>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> All of the following is pretty much also self-contained and automated, >>>>>>>>>>> so all your 'install' and 'set up' is pretty much non-existent. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>Utter nonsense. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Good of you to label your following output, but it wasn't necessary. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Nope, the utter nonsese is your hand waving away the complexity of it all. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> There is no 'complexity of it all' except in your obstructionist mind. >>>>>> >>>>>>Yeah, sure, space cadet. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> So where is this 'complexity' of which you speak? Why do I think it's >>>>> the result of the same mental processes that led you to claim I've >>>>> said things I never said? >>>> >>>>Yeah, sure, space cadet. >>>> >>> >>> Hopelessly stupid, Chimp. >>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>None that stuff is going to get out of the transport vehicle, site >>>>>>>>>>itself, then connect itself, no assembly required. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Chimp, you know where you want to put it (the analog to your 'pick a >>>>>>>>> place with forests and water'), so you land it there. Sited. Yes, it >>>>>>>>> will 'unload itself'. Out of the transport vehicle. As for your >>>>>>>>> "connect itself", you're just being intellectually dishonest. I said >>>>>>>>> you'd have to plug in power and water conduits (also oxygen). Perhaps >>>>>>>>> that's too challenging for you, but most of us can handle plugging >>>>>>>>> things in. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Yeah, sure, space cadet. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> You never actually read ANYTHING, do you, chimpshit? >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>Of course not, space cadet. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Yeah, and it shows. You're hopelessly stupid. >>>> >>>>Yeah, sure, space cadet. >>>> >>> >>> Hopelessly stupid, Chimp. >>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Why would a power system have wheels and be able to drive itself, space >>>>>>>>cadet? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Who said it had to, chimpshit? Go read the Mars Reference Mission >>>>>>> again (no, REALLY read it and see how the power systems work). >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>What if the ground is uneven and the slightest bit rocky, space cadet? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Self-leveling jacks, chimpshit. OLD technology. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Oh, I know, the autonomous bull dozer rolls out first and levels everything. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Yes, as usual you know all sorts of stupid shit that you make up. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>Install pressurization system with oxygen tanks and CO2 scrubbers. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>Install water tanks and plumbing system with toilets and refuse system. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>Install heating system. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>Install water recyling system and refuse to fertilizer system. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>Set up system to generate oxygen from rocks and pipe it into the structue. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>Set up system to mine ice, melt it, purify it, and pipe it into the >>>>>>>>>>>>structure tanks. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> So to this point your 'install' and 'set up' amounts to plugging in >>>>>>>>>>> some power and water conduits. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>Site leveling, movement, and connections at the minimum assuming >>>>>>>>>>everything is pre assembled, all while in a pressure suit. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> You don't need to do 'site leveling'. The automated equipment is >>>>>>>>> self-leveling. You need to plug some connectors together. I can >>>>>>>>> believe that's too hard for you, but then we'll be sending normal >>>>>>>>> human beings to Mars, not you. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Yeah, sure, space cadet. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Indeed, chimpshit. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>And the AI that drives the water plant also makes a good cup of Earl >>>>>>>>Grey. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> You don't 'drive' anywhere, chimpshit. You just drop the stuff where >>>>>>> you want it in the first place. >>>>>> >>>>>>Pick up the trasport rocket and shake... >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Hopelessly stupid. >>>> >>>>Yeah, sure, space cadet. >>>> >>> >>> Hopelessly stupid, Chimp. >>> >>>>> >>>>>>> And even if you do have to 'drive' it, you know we have autonomous >>>>>>> vehicles already, right? And we already have remote operated vehicles >>>>>>> on Mars (and that gets a lot easier once you take the lightspeed delay >>>>>>> out by actually being on site). >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> What follows only applies if you intend to farm. Jim may not be >>>>>>>>>>> aware, but we've moved away from agrarian societies over the last >>>>>>>>>>> several centuries. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>The space cadet may not be aware, but we moved away from agrarian societies >>>>>>>>>>at the end of the 19th century when farm machinery was invented and >>>>>>>>>>farming became much less labor intensive. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The chimpshit may not be aware, but we have all sorts of agricultural >>>>>>>>> methods that have been developed since then and it probably hasn't >>>>>>>>> occurred to him that "less labor intensive" is what I'm talking about >>>>>>>>> and he's objecting to as not possible. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>There go those voices in your head again, space cadet, I never said >>>>>>>>anything about not possible. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Oh, I see now, chimpshit. All your made up barriers are to >>>>>>> demonstrate how EASY it is. Wow, how could we have missed that? >>>>>> >>>>>>YOU keep saying I said impossible, which I have never said, space cadet. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> YOU keep throwing up barriers to make things impossible and then when >>>>> called on your bullshit whine about how you never actually used the >>>>> word. >>>> >>>>Yeah, sure, space cadet. >>>> >>> >>> Hopelessly stupid, Chimp. >>> >>>>> >>>>> Hopelessly stupid. >>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>The space cadet may not be aware, but the priorities on Mars would be >>>>>>>>>>to ensure a constant supply of air, water, and food, in that order. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The chimpshit may not be aware, but the only one of those that is even >>>>>>>>> slightly complicated is the last one (and only because of the space >>>>>>>>> required). The chimpshit may also not realize that since you bring >>>>>>>>> years worth of food with you when you come, you have time to work on >>>>>>>>> the whole 'local food production' problem. It's not like you have to >>>>>>>>> solve it next Tuesday. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>There go those voices in your head again, space cadet, I never said >>>>>>>>anything about next Tuesday. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Oh, I see now, chimpshit. All your made up barriers are to >>>>>>> demonstrate how EASY it is. Wow, how could we have missed that? >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>Because you are a starry eyed space cadet. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> More likely because you are a lying piece of chimpshit. >>>> >>>>Yeah, sure, space cadet bully. >>>> >>> >>> Hopelessly stupid, Chimp coward. >>> >>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>Set up pressurized environment to grow food and connect to the power, >>>>>>>>>>>>water, and oxygen system. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>Plant seeds. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>While waiting for the first crop, eat the tons of provisions you brought >>>>>>>>>>>>with you. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>Prey nothing breaks and if it does that you have a repair part. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>The oldest technology you have is mid 20th century. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>Everything you have is made by machines in factories. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>The raw materials for the things you have had to be gathered from all >>>>>>>>>>>>over the Earth. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>Aluminum, for example, comes from Australia, Brazil, China, India, Guinea, >>>>>>>>>>>>Indonesia, Jamaica, Russia and Suriname, but not Pittsburg. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>The lowest technology items you have are your aluminum alloy cooking utensils. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> You can't cook in cast iron anymore? Wow, who knew? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>Sure you can, but only an idiot would chose cast iron over aluminum for >>>>>>>>>>Mars if for no other reason than the weight penalty. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> When you're moving a hundred tonnes at a time, is that really an >>>>>>>>> issue? I don't think so, but of course Jimp The Chimp needed to find >>>>>>>>> a barrier to throw up... >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Sure it is an issue, space cadet, everything will be optimized to be as >>>>>>>>light as possible while maintaining functionality. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Why? You only need to do that if boost is expensive and rare. >>>>>> >>>>>>Nope, even if cheap you want to optimize the total amount of crap you >>>>>>can send at once. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Let me make it simple for you. Sometimes the payload is weight >>>>> limited and you care about that. Sometimes the payload is volume >>>>> limited and you care about that. Sometimes you don't have a full load >>>>> either by weight or by volume, so you get to throw in shit and don't >>>>> care what it weighs or about space or about both. >>>>> >>>>> Go look up GAScan or CubeSat or any of a number of essentially 'free >>>>> riders' even given the limited and expensive boosters currently in >>>>> use. Now scale all that up to 100 tonne payloads and frequent >>>>> launches. >>>> >>>>Let me make it simple for you. If you are setting up permanent living >>>>quarters on Mars, for any reason or goal, you want as much shit as >>>>you can get. >>>> >>>>You still won't get it, of course, but that's because you're >>>>hopelessly starry eyed. >>>> >>> >>> Yes, and stupid micro-optimizations like you're obsessed with are why >>> everyone but SpaceEx has cost problems. >>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>To do otherwise is blazingly stupid even for you. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> No, thinking that's necessary is blazingly stupid. No wonder you >>>>>>> cannot conceive of how a Mars colony would work. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>Sure I can conceive of how a Mars colony would work, what I can't >>>>>>conceive is how it would ever be paid for. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> That's because you're hopelessly stupid. >>>> >>>>That's because you're hopelessly starry eyed. >>>> >>> >>> That's because you're hopelessly stupid. >>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Do you think all the structures will be built of steel for cost or >>>>>>>>aluminum for weight? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I think that's a blazingly stupid question. The answer is 'neither, >>>>>>> and not for either of those reasons'. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>Blow up dolls do not solve all problems, space cadet. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> But they solve a lot of them, chimpshit. Your question was "all the >>>>> structures". ALL the structures won't be built out of steel or >>>>> aluminum or even kevlar. A lot of them WILL be built out of kevlar, >>>>> though, and the others will be built out of whatever is required. >>>> >>>>Weasel wording twit; most stuff will be built with aluminum. >>>> >>> >>> Wrong and it's not weasel wording. Most stuff will be built with >>> kevlar and plastics. >>> >>>>> Wow, you are spectacularly and hopelessly stupid. >>>> >>>>Wow, I want to see that plastic bulldozer. >>>> >>> >>> Wow, I want to see you say something sensible, but I'm not holding my >>> breath because you are hopelessly stupid. >> >>Keep holding your breath, space cadet. >> > > So let's sum up, chimpshit. Your cite agrees with everything I > actually said. Your fantasy about what you claim I said is precisely > that; your fantasy. You're so eager to pick a fight that it has left > you unbalanced. Here is a more accurate summary: I said the 50 million to 100 million indiginous peoples were wipped out by diseases brought in by Europeans. I provded several cites to support that. You claimed variously: It was all a coincencence; yeah sure. Most indiginous people never saw a European; irrelevant to how disease spreads. Europeans saw few people; contradicted by numerous links. Colonists saw few people; of course as they were already dead. No doctors around so we don't know what disease; you don't have to be a doctor to recognize symptoms of common diseases and the diseases that wiped out the indiginous people were common to the Europeans. -- Jim Pennino
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Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-12 15:28 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-12 23:07 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-12 22:05 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-13 17:51 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-13 12:53 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-13 20:31 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-13 18:54 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-14 03:22 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-13 21:39 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-14 18:01 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 13:39 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-14 22:24 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 16:53 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-15 00:22 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 18:28 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-15 01:47 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 20:23 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-15 04:35 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 22:49 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-15 21:32 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-15 15:48 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-15 23:43 +0000
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