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Re: Misconceptions about LIGO

Followups directed to: sci.physics.relativity

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Odd Bodkin wrote:

> On 8/3/2016 3:48 AM, jay moseley wrote:
>>  If a chirp is recorded in one detector that matches a merger profile.
>> (There are billions detected in each detector).

No, there are not.  As you can read e.g. in the GEO 600 scientist’s  
considerate response to Mrs. Lopez first request (which was rather  
reasonable compared to what followed from her), there is (in terms of sound, 
see below) continuous “noise” that is far from such a "chirp" (which is 
unsurprising given the literally astronomical circumstances required to 
create such a "chirp").

>> What does the speed of light have to do with it?
> 
> It doesn't.

Yes, it does.

If this unique "chirp" (again, it really were the discrete changes in a 
laser beam interference pattern over a discrete period of time, only 
*presented* as a sound chirp to the general public because *that was thought 
easier for them to understand*) is detected at one (LIGO) site and the 
*same* "chirp" is detected at another site after precisely the time that it 
takes light to travel from the first site to the second; then, because 
Einstein’s theory of gravitational waves of 1916 includes the prediction 
that gravitational waves (as *all* spacetime distortions) propagate at the 
speed of light (as that is the limit for the propagation of information in 
both special and general relativity), then that is strong indication that 
what was detected was a phenomenon that propagated at the speed of light.

Since it could not have been light itself (i.e. an *electromagnetic* wave), 
and if all other causes can be excluded (and they could), then the only 
possibility that remains is the observation of the propagation of a 
spacetime distortion, a gravitational wave, between the two (LIGO) sites.

For an analogy that should be easy to understand by laymen, consider a water 
wave instead:

You have two meter-sticks standing perpendicular to the lakebed/seabed at 
some known distance from each other.  You are at the first meter-stick.  You 
mark the height of the water on the stick at specific times.  When a water 
wave passes by, you mark the water height rising with time, then falling, in 
a pattern that is unique to the form of the wave.

Now suppose you are not alone.  There is another equally capable person 
doing the marks for the other meter-stick.  If the other person does 
approximately the same marks as you, but each of them some *equal* time 
later than yours, and that delay corresponds to a time interval in which a 
water wave could have traveled from your meter-stick to theirs, or vice-
versa, and you know that neither of you nor anyone else have created a 
considerable wave, then you can say with great confidence that the two of 
you have observed the propagation of a water distortion, a water wave, 
between the two meter-sticks.

  “When you have eliminated all which is impossible, then
   whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.”

     —Sherlock Holmes in A. C. Doyle's
      “The Adventure of the Blanched Soldier”

> But it's a simple likelihood problem.

Not only.

> It's a calculable and MEASURABLE background.
> 
> The issue is very simple: How likely is it that there are two completely
> independent seismic events that
> 1. have identical signal profiles (where "identical" is determined by
> cuts), and
> 2. occur within 10ms of each other.

There are other facts to consider:

1. Seismic events are _not_ locally restricted either.  Seismic events such 
   as earthquakes cause seismic waves traveling outward from the location of
   the event (usually underground).  We know that seismic waves travel
   through Terra’s layers, through rock and through the mantle; they were
   instrumental in discovering the inner composition of the planet (they
   travel slower in solids than in liquids).

   If there had been two independent seismic events, then the seismic waves 
   caused by either event would have traveled not only to the other LIGO 
   site, where it would have caused (assuming that the LIGO scientists were 
   as uninformed as some people here to not consider that possibility) an
   *additional* change in the other detector’s interference pattern, too;
   it would have been detected by seismic observations stations, at least in 
   the vicinity of the LIGO site(s).  And the seismic waves would have 
   arrived later there than what was actually measured because seismic waves
   do not travel at the speed of light (299 792 458 m∕s), but only up to
   13'000 m∕s (on Terra).

2. Seismic events cause seismic waves with much greater amplitudes at or 
   near the epicentrum than what was measured.

Bottom line: It *cannot* have been two independent seismic events.

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seismic_wave>

F'up2 <news:sci.physics.relativity>
 
-- 
PointedEars

Twitter: @PointedEars2
Please do not cc me. / Bitte keine Kopien per E-Mail.

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Thread

Fight the LIGO fraud. Sign this Petition mapou001@gmail.com - 2016-08-02 00:03 -0700
  Misconceptions about LIGO (was: Fight the LIGO fraud. Sign this Petition) Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2016-08-02 12:40 +0200
    Re: Misconceptions about LIGO Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2016-08-02 12:58 +0200
    Misconceptions about LIGO (was: Fight the LIGO fraud. Sign this Petition) jay moseley <jaymoseley@hotmail.com> - 2016-08-02 04:09 -0700
      Re: Misconceptions about LIGO Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2016-08-02 14:32 +0200
        Re: Misconceptions about LIGO jay moseley <jaymoseley@hotmail.com> - 2016-08-03 01:48 -0700
          Re: Misconceptions about LIGO Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2016-08-03 07:51 -0500
            Re: Misconceptions about LIGO jay moseley <jaymoseley@hotmail.com> - 2016-08-04 08:36 -0700
              Re: Misconceptions about LIGO Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2016-08-04 11:20 -0500
                Re: Misconceptions about LIGO jay moseley <jaymoseley@hotmail.com> - 2016-08-05 01:08 -0700
                Re: Misconceptions about LIGO Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2016-08-05 08:04 -0500
            Re: Misconceptions about LIGO Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2016-08-04 20:48 +0200
              Re: Misconceptions about LIGO LIGO Fraud Investigator <mapou001@gmail.com> - 2016-08-04 12:30 -0700
                Re: Misconceptions about LIGO john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2016-08-04 14:13 -0700
                Re: Misconceptions about LIGO moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2016-08-04 22:04 +0000
                Re: Misconceptions about LIGO Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2016-08-05 07:30 -0500
                Re: Misconceptions about LIGO john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2016-08-05 06:00 -0700
                Re: Misconceptions about LIGO Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2016-08-05 08:11 -0500
                Re: Misconceptions about LIGO john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2016-08-05 06:15 -0700
                Re: Misconceptions about LIGO Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2016-08-05 11:27 -0500
                Re: Misconceptions about LIGO benj <benj@nobody.net> - 2016-08-05 16:22 -0400
                Re: Misconceptions about LIGO Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2016-08-05 15:42 -0500
                Re: Misconceptions about LIGO benj <benj@nobody.net> - 2016-08-05 19:31 -0400
                Re: Misconceptions about LIGO LIGO Fraud Investigator <mapou001@gmail.com> - 2016-08-05 17:30 -0700
                Re: Misconceptions about LIGO The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2016-08-05 22:21 -0700
                Re: Misconceptions about LIGO LIGO Fraud Investigator <mapou001@gmail.com> - 2016-08-05 23:05 -0700
                Re: Misconceptions about LIGO Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2016-08-06 17:32 -0500
                Re: Misconceptions about LIGO Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2016-08-07 13:31 -0500
                Re: Misconceptions about LIGO benj <benj@nobody.net> - 2016-08-08 18:22 -0400
                Re: Misconceptions about LIGO john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2016-08-05 16:47 -0700
                Re: Misconceptions about LIGO Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2016-08-06 17:31 -0500
                Re: Misconceptions about LIGO The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2016-08-05 22:20 -0700
                Re: Misconceptions about LIGO The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2016-08-06 10:21 -0700
                Re: Misconceptions about LIGO The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2016-08-06 10:39 -0700
                Re: Misconceptions about LIGO john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2016-08-05 10:37 -0700
                Re: Misconceptions about LIGO Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2016-08-05 13:20 -0500
                Re: Misconceptions about LIGO Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2016-08-05 13:25 -0500
                Re: Misconceptions about LIGO john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2016-08-05 11:48 -0700
                Re: Misconceptions about LIGO Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2016-08-05 20:48 +0200
                Re: Misconceptions about LIGO john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2016-08-05 11:55 -0700
                Re: Misconceptions about LIGO Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2016-08-05 15:15 -0500
                Re: Misconceptions about LIGO Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2016-08-05 15:09 -0500
                Re: Misconceptions about LIGO benj <benj@nobody.net> - 2016-08-05 16:26 -0400
                Re: Misconceptions about LIGO Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2016-08-05 15:45 -0500
                Re: Misconceptions about LIGO john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2016-08-05 15:32 -0700
                Re: Misconceptions about LIGO Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2016-08-07 13:32 -0500
                Re: Misconceptions about LIGO john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2016-08-07 13:57 -0700
                Re: Misconceptions about LIGO john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2016-08-07 14:17 -0700
                Re: Misconceptions about LIGO benj <benj@nobody.net> - 2016-08-08 18:37 -0400
                Re: Misconceptions about LIGO benj <benj@nobody.net> - 2016-08-08 18:24 -0400
                Re: Misconceptions about LIGO benj <benj@nobody.net> - 2016-08-05 19:35 -0400
                Re: Misconceptions about LIGO Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2016-08-07 13:32 -0500
              Re: Misconceptions about LIGO jay moseley <jaymoseley@hotmail.com> - 2016-08-05 01:42 -0700
            Re: Misconceptions about LIGO poraty350@gmail.com - 2016-08-04 23:21 -0700
      Re: Misconceptions about LIGO (was: Fight the LIGO fraud. Sign this Petition) poraty350@gmail.com - 2016-08-04 23:16 -0700
      Re: Misconceptions about LIGO Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2016-08-05 07:04 -0500
    Re: Misconceptions about LIGO (was: Fight the LIGO fraud. Sign this Petition) mapou001@gmail.com - 2016-08-02 10:35 -0700
      Re: Misconceptions about LIGO Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2016-08-03 21:32 +0200
        Re: Misconceptions about LIGO LIGO Fraud Investigator <mapou001@gmail.com> - 2016-08-03 13:16 -0700
          Re: Misconceptions about LIGO Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2016-08-03 17:06 -0500
            Re: Misconceptions about LIGO mapou001@gmail.com - 2016-08-03 15:39 -0700
              Re: Misconceptions about LIGO Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2016-08-03 21:25 -0500
                Re: Misconceptions about LIGO LIGO Fraud Investigator <mapou001@gmail.com> - 2016-08-03 21:29 -0700
                Re: Misconceptions about LIGO Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2016-08-04 07:58 -0500
                Re: Misconceptions about LIGO john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2016-08-04 06:07 -0700
                Re: Misconceptions about LIGO Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2016-08-04 08:20 -0500
                Re: Misconceptions about LIGO john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2016-08-04 06:48 -0700
                Re: Misconceptions about LIGO john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2016-08-04 07:16 -0700
                Re: Misconceptions about LIGO moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2016-08-04 14:51 +0000
                Re: Misconceptions about LIGO john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2016-08-04 09:08 -0700
                Re: Misconceptions about LIGO moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2016-08-04 16:39 +0000
                Re: Misconceptions about LIGO Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2016-08-05 07:20 -0500
                Re: Misconceptions about LIGO poraty350@gmail.com - 2016-08-04 23:28 -0700
                Re: Misconceptions about LIGO poraty350@gmail.com - 2016-08-05 05:26 -0700
                Re: Misconceptions about LIGO Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2016-08-04 11:14 -0500
        Re: Misconceptions about LIGO poraty350@gmail.com - 2016-08-04 23:23 -0700
          Re: Misconceptions about LIGO Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2016-08-05 20:49 +0200
      Re: Misconceptions about LIGO Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2016-08-05 07:02 -0500
        Re: Misconceptions about LIGO john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2016-08-05 05:12 -0700
        Re: Misconceptions about LIGO LIGO Fraud Investigator <mapou001@gmail.com> - 2016-08-05 12:50 -0700
          Re: Misconceptions about LIGO Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2016-08-05 15:28 -0500
            Re: Misconceptions about LIGO LIGO Fraud Investigator <mapou001@gmail.com> - 2016-08-05 19:35 -0700
              Re: Misconceptions about LIGO john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2016-08-05 20:55 -0700
              Re: Misconceptions about LIGO Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2016-08-09 10:45 -0500
                Re: Misconceptions about LIGO LIGO Fraud Investigator <mapou001@gmail.com> - 2016-08-09 12:21 -0700
  Re: Fight the LIGO fraud. Sign this Petition "reber g=emc^2" <herbertglazier0@gmail.com> - 2016-08-02 11:10 -0700
    Re: Fight the LIGO fraud. Sign this Petition john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2016-08-02 11:21 -0700
  Re: Fight the LIGO fraud. Sign this Petition poraty350@gmail.com - 2016-08-04 23:12 -0700
    Re: Fight the LIGO fraud. Sign this Petition Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2016-08-05 07:31 -0500
    Re: Fight the LIGO fraud. Sign this Petition "reber g=emc^2" <herbertglazier0@gmail.com> - 2016-08-05 18:25 -0700

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