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| From | Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> |
|---|---|
| Newsgroups | comp.theory, sci.logic, comp.ai.philosophy, sci.math |
| Subject | Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways |
| Date | 2025-11-27 09:49 +0200 |
| Organization | A noiseless patient Spider |
| Message-ID | <10g8vr5$16p4g$1@dont-email.me> (permalink) |
| References | (20 earlier) <10fdp8u$gub4$2@dont-email.me> <10fen6r$ngrk$1@dont-email.me> <10ff84e$s7dk$4@dont-email.me> <10g6j5r$9aql$1@dont-email.me> <10g75m9$gf3b$3@dont-email.me> |
Cross-posted to 4 groups.
olcott kirjoitti 26.11.2025 klo 17.17:
> On 11/26/2025 4:01 AM, Mikko wrote:
>> olcott kirjoitti 17.11.2025 klo 15.31:
>>> On 11/17/2025 2:43 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>> On 2025-11-17 00:12:14 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>
>>>>> On 11/16/2025 3:18 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>> On 2025-11-15 16:12:49 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 11/15/2025 4:15 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 2025-11-14 15:00:09 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 11/14/2025 3:21 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 2025-11-13 15:50:37 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 11/13/2025 2:48 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2025-11-12 12:54:12 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 11/12/2025 1:09 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2025-11-11 13:04:13 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 11/11/2025 2:59 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2025-11-10 14:48:00 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 11/10/2025 3:43 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2025-11-09 12:51:57 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 11/9/2025 4:22 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2025-11-08 13:36:06 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 11/8/2025 2:05 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2025-11-07 12:57:48 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 11/7/2025 2:05 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2025-11-06 20:48:02 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> D simulated by H cannot possibly reach its own
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulated final halt state.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That is merely a defect in H and irrelevanto to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the semantic and other
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> properties of D.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That's a stupid statement.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Stupid is better than false.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It is stupidly false because you didn't bother
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to pay any attention at all.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A statement about me is off topic in comp.theory.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> H simulates D that calls H(D) that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulates D that calls H(D) that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulates D that calls H(D) that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulates D that calls H(D) that never reaches
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the simulated "return" statement final halt
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> state of D because D calls H(D) in recursive
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulation.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Have you ever done any actual programming?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A question about me is off topic in comp.theory. But
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> yes, I did yesterday.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *This is my key foundational point*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> int H(char* P);
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> int D()
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> {
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> int Halt_Status = H(D);
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> if (Halt_Status)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> HERE: goto HERE;
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> return Halt_Status;
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> }
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The above is in test.c
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulate.exe implements a C interpreter.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulate test.c
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> runs the interpreter on the above source file
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from the command prompt.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Any program that does not correctly tell whether
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> test.c halts is not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a halt decider. A program that gives an incorrect
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> answer is not even
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a partial halt decider.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> When this interpreter sees the call to H(D)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it calls itself with the text body of D.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> According to C semanttics it should simulate H(D),
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> either simultating
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> instructions of H or simulating the return from H(D)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with the same
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> returned value as H(D) would return if executed, or do
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> whatever H would
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> do if H would not not return.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That is not the behavior that the input to H(D) specifies.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulator.exe simulates Test.c. This simulates D that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> calls H(D) that the simulator recognizes as itself.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It is the behavour C semantics specifies. According to C
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> semantics
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> any other behavour that produces the same result is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> equally valid.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So D remains stuck in recursive simulation never being
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> able to complete its first statement before calling H(D)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> again and again.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If that happens then H does not return and therefore is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not a decider.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe my work is over your head.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe the definition of "decider" is over your head.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> typedef int (*ptr)();
>>>>>>>>>>>>> int HHH(ptr P);
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> int DD()
>>>>>>>>>>>>> {
>>>>>>>>>>>>> int Halt_Status = HHH(DD);
>>>>>>>>>>>>> if (Halt_Status)
>>>>>>>>>>>>> HERE: goto HERE;
>>>>>>>>>>>>> return Halt_Status;
>>>>>>>>>>>>> }
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> int main()
>>>>>>>>>>>>> {
>>>>>>>>>>>>> HHH(DD);
>>>>>>>>>>>>> }
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> People here have consistently lied about
>>>>>>>>>>>>> DD simulated by HHH reaching its own "return"
>>>>>>>>>>>>> statement final halt state for three years.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> You yourself have not told the truth about
>>>>>>>>>>>>> this even once.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> That seems to confirm that the definition of "decider" is
>>>>>>>>>>>> over your head.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I am just talking at the level of the execution
>>>>>>>>>>> trace of C functions. D does specify non-halting
>>>>>>>>>>> behavior to its termination analyzer.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The termination problem is not about specifying "to its
>>>>>>>>>> termination
>>>>>>>>>> analyzer". Instead the termination problem is to determine
>>>>>>>>>> whether
>>>>>>>>>> a program terminates every time when used as it was designed
>>>>>>>>>> to be
>>>>>>>>>> used.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The halting problem requires that a halt decider
>>>>>>>>> correctly report on the behavior of its caller
>>>>>>>>> and no halt decider can even see its actual caller.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Every halt decider is required to report on the behaviour asked
>>>>>>>> about.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And this is incorrect when it has not access to
>>>>>>> the behavior that it is asked about.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No, it is not. The solution to the halting problem must include the
>>>>>> necessary access. Conversely, a proof that the necessary access is
>>>>>> impossible is sufficient to prove that halting problem is unsolvable.
>>>>>
>>>>> Reporing on the behavior of DD() executed from
>>>>> main requires HHH to report on information
>>>>> that is not contained in its input thus it is
>>>>> incorrect to require HHH to report on that.
>>>>
>>>> That HHH fails to meet the requirements does not mean that the
>>>> requirements are wrong. It merely meas that HHH is not a halt
>>>> decider.
>>>>
>>>
>>> That HHH fails to meet the requirements by itself does
>>> not mean that the requirements are wrong.
>>>
>>> Turing machine deciders only compute a mapping from
>>> their [finite string] inputs to an accept or reject
>>> state on the basis that this [finite string] input
>>> specifies or fails to specify a semantic or syntactic
>>> property.
>>>
>>> That the information that HHH is required to report
>>> on simply is not contained in its input is what makes
>>> the requirements wrong.
>>
>> No, it merely means that the designer ot HHH has failed to specify the
>> encoding rules so that the input contains the full specification of the
>> behaviour.
> In other words you are trying to get away with
> disagreeing with the semantics of the x86 language
> or the semantics of the C programing language.
You are the one who disagrees with the x86 processors about the x86
language semantics. When an x86 processor executes a program it executes
according to the x86 semantics. When DD is executed according to the x86
semantics it halts. Anybody who says that DD specifies a non-halting
behaviour disagrees with the x86 semantics.
--
Mikko
Back to sci.math | Previous | Next — Previous in thread | Next in thread | Find similar | Unroll thread
The halting problem is incorrect two different ways olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-14 09:00 -0600
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-17 07:31 -0600
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-17 07:31 -0600
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-11-26 12:01 +0200
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-26 09:17 -0600
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2025-11-26 10:29 -0500
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-11-26 18:35 +0000
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-26 13:55 -0600
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-11-26 14:58 -0500
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-11-26 21:47 +0000
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-26 15:53 -0600
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-11-26 22:19 +0000
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-26 16:48 -0600
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-11-26 18:00 -0500
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-11-26 23:55 +0000
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-26 18:20 -0600
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-11-27 00:39 +0000
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-26 18:51 -0600
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-11-26 20:02 -0500
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways Python <python@cccp.invalid> - 2025-11-27 01:24 +0000
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-26 19:42 -0600
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways Python <python@cccp.invalid> - 2025-11-27 02:00 +0000
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-26 20:37 -0600
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-11-27 04:15 +0000
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-26 22:31 -0600
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-11-27 06:51 +0000
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-27 08:59 -0600
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2025-11-27 10:16 -0500
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-11-27 18:17 +0000
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2025-11-27 07:41 -0500
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2025-11-27 07:40 -0500
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-11-26 23:00 -0800
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways Python <python@cccp.invalid> - 2025-11-27 01:39 +0000
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-26 19:47 -0600
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways Python <python@cccp.invalid> - 2025-11-27 01:59 +0000
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-26 20:26 -0600
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-11-27 04:19 +0000
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-26 22:39 -0600
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-11-27 09:49 +0200
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-11-26 23:58 -0800
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-11-28 10:14 +0200
The halting problem is incorrect two different ways --- updated olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-28 08:46 -0600
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways --- updated Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2025-11-28 10:59 -0500
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways --- updated Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-11-29 11:27 +0200
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways --- updated olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-29 10:38 -0600
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways --- updated Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2025-11-29 14:58 -0500
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways --- updated Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-12-01 12:45 +0200
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways --- updated olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-12-01 06:47 -0600
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways --- updated Python <python@cccp.invalid> - 2025-12-01 14:29 +0000
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways --- updated olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-12-01 08:38 -0600
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways --- updated Python <python@cccp.invalid> - 2025-12-01 14:45 +0000
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways --- updated olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-12-01 08:57 -0600
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways --- updated Python <python@cccp.invalid> - 2025-12-01 15:06 +0000
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways --- updated olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-12-01 09:19 -0600
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways --- updated olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-12-01 09:26 -0600
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways --- updated olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-12-01 09:29 -0600
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways --- updated Python <python@cccp.invalid> - 2025-12-01 15:31 +0000
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways --- updated olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-12-01 09:39 -0600
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways --- updated Python <python@cccp.invalid> - 2025-12-01 15:48 +0000
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways --- updated olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-12-01 09:55 -0600
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways --- updated Python <python@cccp.invalid> - 2025-12-01 16:00 +0000
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways --- updated olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-12-01 10:27 -0600
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways --- updated "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-12-01 16:41 -0800
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways --- updated olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-12-03 18:24 -0600
Olcott is provably correct --- no one can correctly refute this olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-12-03 19:54 -0600
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways --- updated Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-12-02 11:07 +0200
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways --- updated olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-12-02 08:14 -0600
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways --- updated Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-12-03 13:34 +0200
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways --- updated olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-12-03 10:27 -0600
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways --- updated Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-12-04 11:17 +0200
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways --- updated olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-12-04 08:15 -0600
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways --- updated Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-12-06 11:23 +0200
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways --- updated olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-12-06 06:47 -0600
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways --- updated Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2025-12-06 17:26 -0500
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways --- faking ignorance olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-27 09:21 -0600
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways --- faking ignorance Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2025-11-27 10:40 -0500
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways --- faking ignorance Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-11-27 18:37 +0000
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways --- faking ignorance Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-11-27 18:24 +0000
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways --- faking ignorance Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-11-28 10:18 +0200
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways --- faking ignorance olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-28 08:52 -0600
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways --- faking ignorance Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2025-11-28 11:01 -0500
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