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| From | olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Newsgroups | comp.theory, sci.logic, comp.ai.philosophy, sci.math |
| Subject | Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways |
| Date | 2025-11-17 07:31 -0600 |
| Organization | A noiseless patient Spider |
| Message-ID | <10ff841$s7dk$3@dont-email.me> (permalink) |
| References | (17 earlier) <10f9js7$3e65b$1@dont-email.me> <10fa8q3$3jp5k$1@dont-email.me> <10fc4tf$21qu$1@dont-email.me> <10fdp8u$gub4$2@dont-email.me> <10fen6r$ngrk$1@dont-email.me> |
Cross-posted to 4 groups.
On 11/17/2025 2:43 AM, Mikko wrote:
> On 2025-11-17 00:12:14 +0000, olcott said:
>
>> On 11/16/2025 3:18 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>> On 2025-11-15 16:12:49 +0000, olcott said:
>>>
>>>> On 11/15/2025 4:15 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>> On 2025-11-14 15:00:09 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 11/14/2025 3:21 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>> On 2025-11-13 15:50:37 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 11/13/2025 2:48 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 2025-11-12 12:54:12 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 11/12/2025 1:09 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 2025-11-11 13:04:13 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 11/11/2025 2:59 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2025-11-10 14:48:00 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 11/10/2025 3:43 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2025-11-09 12:51:57 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 11/9/2025 4:22 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2025-11-08 13:36:06 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 11/8/2025 2:05 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2025-11-07 12:57:48 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 11/7/2025 2:05 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2025-11-06 20:48:02 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> D simulated by H cannot possibly reach its own
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulated final halt state.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That is merely a defect in H and irrelevanto to the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> semantic and other
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> properties of D.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That's a stupid statement.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Stupid is better than false.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It is stupidly false because you didn't bother
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to pay any attention at all.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A statement about me is off topic in comp.theory.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> H simulates D that calls H(D) that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulates D that calls H(D) that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulates D that calls H(D) that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulates D that calls H(D) that never reaches
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the simulated "return" statement final halt
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> state of D because D calls H(D) in recursive
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulation.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Have you ever done any actual programming?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A question about me is off topic in comp.theory. But
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> yes, I did yesterday.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *This is my key foundational point*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> int H(char* P);
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> int D()
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> {
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> int Halt_Status = H(D);
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> if (Halt_Status)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> HERE: goto HERE;
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> return Halt_Status;
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> }
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The above is in test.c
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulate.exe implements a C interpreter.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulate test.c
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> runs the interpreter on the above source file
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from the command prompt.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Any program that does not correctly tell whether test.c
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> halts is not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a halt decider. A program that gives an incorrect answer
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is not even
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a partial halt decider.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> When this interpreter sees the call to H(D)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it calls itself with the text body of D.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> According to C semanttics it should simulate H(D), either
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simultating
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> instructions of H or simulating the return from H(D) with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the same
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> returned value as H(D) would return if executed, or do
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> whatever H would
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> do if H would not not return.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That is not the behavior that the input to H(D) specifies.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulator.exe simulates Test.c. This simulates D that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> calls H(D) that the simulator recognizes as itself.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> It is the behavour C semantics specifies. According to C
>>>>>>>>>>>>> semantics
>>>>>>>>>>>>> any other behavour that produces the same result is equally
>>>>>>>>>>>>> valid.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So D remains stuck in recursive simulation never being
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> able to complete its first statement before calling H(D)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> again and again.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> If that happens then H does not return and therefore is not
>>>>>>>>>>>>> a decider.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe my work is over your head.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe the definition of "decider" is over your head.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> typedef int (*ptr)();
>>>>>>>>>> int HHH(ptr P);
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> int DD()
>>>>>>>>>> {
>>>>>>>>>> int Halt_Status = HHH(DD);
>>>>>>>>>> if (Halt_Status)
>>>>>>>>>> HERE: goto HERE;
>>>>>>>>>> return Halt_Status;
>>>>>>>>>> }
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> int main()
>>>>>>>>>> {
>>>>>>>>>> HHH(DD);
>>>>>>>>>> }
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> People here have consistently lied about
>>>>>>>>>> DD simulated by HHH reaching its own "return"
>>>>>>>>>> statement final halt state for three years.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> You yourself have not told the truth about
>>>>>>>>>> this even once.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> That seems to confirm that the definition of "decider" is over
>>>>>>>>> your head.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I am just talking at the level of the execution
>>>>>>>> trace of C functions. D does specify non-halting
>>>>>>>> behavior to its termination analyzer.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The termination problem is not about specifying "to its termination
>>>>>>> analyzer". Instead the termination problem is to determine whether
>>>>>>> a program terminates every time when used as it was designed to be
>>>>>>> used.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The halting problem requires that a halt decider
>>>>>> correctly report on the behavior of its caller
>>>>>> and no halt decider can even see its actual caller.
>>>>>
>>>>> Every halt decider is required to report on the behaviour asked about.
>>>>
>>>> And this is incorrect when it has not access to
>>>> the behavior that it is asked about.
>>>
>>> No, it is not. The solution to the halting problem must include the
>>> necessary access. Conversely, a proof that the necessary access is
>>> impossible is sufficient to prove that halting problem is unsolvable.
>>
>> Reporing on the behavior of DD() executed from
>> main requires HHH to report on information
>> that is not contained in its input thus it is
>> incorrect to require HHH to report on that.
>
> That HHH fails to meet the requirements does not mean that the
> requirements are wrong. It merely meas that HHH is not a halt
> decider.
>
That HHH fails to meet the requirements by itself does
not mean that the requirements are wrong.
Turing machine deciders only compute a mapping from
their [finite string] inputs to an accept or reject
state on the basis that this [finite string] input
specifies or fails to specify a semantic or syntactic
property.
That the information that HHH is required to report
on simply is not contained in its input is what makes
the requirements wrong.
--
Copyright 2025 Olcott
My 28 year goal has been to make
"true on the basis of meaning" computable.
Back to sci.math | Previous | Next — Previous in thread | Next in thread | Find similar | Unroll thread
The halting problem is incorrect two different ways olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-14 09:00 -0600
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-17 07:31 -0600
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-17 07:31 -0600
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-11-26 12:01 +0200
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-26 09:17 -0600
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2025-11-26 10:29 -0500
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-11-26 18:35 +0000
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-26 13:55 -0600
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-11-26 14:58 -0500
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-11-26 21:47 +0000
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-26 15:53 -0600
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-11-26 22:19 +0000
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-26 16:48 -0600
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-11-26 18:00 -0500
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-11-26 23:55 +0000
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-26 18:20 -0600
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-11-27 00:39 +0000
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-26 18:51 -0600
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-11-26 20:02 -0500
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways Python <python@cccp.invalid> - 2025-11-27 01:24 +0000
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-26 19:42 -0600
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways Python <python@cccp.invalid> - 2025-11-27 02:00 +0000
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-26 20:37 -0600
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-11-27 04:15 +0000
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-26 22:31 -0600
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-11-27 06:51 +0000
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-27 08:59 -0600
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2025-11-27 10:16 -0500
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-11-27 18:17 +0000
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2025-11-27 07:41 -0500
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2025-11-27 07:40 -0500
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-11-26 23:00 -0800
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways Python <python@cccp.invalid> - 2025-11-27 01:39 +0000
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-26 19:47 -0600
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways Python <python@cccp.invalid> - 2025-11-27 01:59 +0000
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-26 20:26 -0600
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-11-27 04:19 +0000
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-26 22:39 -0600
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-11-27 09:49 +0200
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-11-26 23:58 -0800
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-11-28 10:14 +0200
The halting problem is incorrect two different ways --- updated olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-28 08:46 -0600
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways --- updated Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2025-11-28 10:59 -0500
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways --- updated Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-11-29 11:27 +0200
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways --- updated olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-29 10:38 -0600
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways --- updated Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2025-11-29 14:58 -0500
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways --- updated Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-12-01 12:45 +0200
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways --- updated olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-12-01 06:47 -0600
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways --- updated Python <python@cccp.invalid> - 2025-12-01 14:29 +0000
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways --- updated olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-12-01 08:38 -0600
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways --- updated Python <python@cccp.invalid> - 2025-12-01 14:45 +0000
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways --- updated olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-12-01 08:57 -0600
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways --- updated Python <python@cccp.invalid> - 2025-12-01 15:06 +0000
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways --- updated olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-12-01 09:19 -0600
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways --- updated olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-12-01 09:26 -0600
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways --- updated olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-12-01 09:29 -0600
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways --- updated Python <python@cccp.invalid> - 2025-12-01 15:31 +0000
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways --- updated olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-12-01 09:39 -0600
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways --- updated Python <python@cccp.invalid> - 2025-12-01 15:48 +0000
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways --- updated olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-12-01 09:55 -0600
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways --- updated Python <python@cccp.invalid> - 2025-12-01 16:00 +0000
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways --- updated olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-12-01 10:27 -0600
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways --- updated "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-12-01 16:41 -0800
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways --- updated olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-12-03 18:24 -0600
Olcott is provably correct --- no one can correctly refute this olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-12-03 19:54 -0600
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways --- updated Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-12-02 11:07 +0200
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways --- updated olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-12-02 08:14 -0600
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways --- updated Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-12-03 13:34 +0200
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways --- updated olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-12-03 10:27 -0600
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways --- updated Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-12-04 11:17 +0200
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways --- updated olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-12-04 08:15 -0600
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways --- updated Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-12-06 11:23 +0200
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways --- updated olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-12-06 06:47 -0600
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways --- updated Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2025-12-06 17:26 -0500
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways --- faking ignorance olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-27 09:21 -0600
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways --- faking ignorance Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2025-11-27 10:40 -0500
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways --- faking ignorance Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-11-27 18:37 +0000
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways --- faking ignorance Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-11-27 18:24 +0000
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways --- faking ignorance Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-11-28 10:18 +0200
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways --- faking ignorance olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-28 08:52 -0600
Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways --- faking ignorance Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2025-11-28 11:01 -0500
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