Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways --- updated

From	olcott <polcott333@gmail.com>
Newsgroups	sci.math, sci.logic, comp.theory
Subject	Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways --- updated
Date	2025-12-01 09:39 -0600
Organization	A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID	<10gkcrk$1ev4l$1@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References	(6 earlier) <AjRE2QLtAxSKfELtHtZ24jOg-B8@jntp> <10gkbm7$1eeh3$2@dont-email.me> <10gkc28$1ej2v$1@dont-email.me> <10gkc9c$1ej2v$2@dont-email.me> <hPUiLIZ-BKkrCKKiorXdXl1XokA@jntp>

Cross-posted to 3 groups.

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On 12/1/2025 9:31 AM, Python wrote:
> Le 01/12/2025 à 16:29, olcott a écrit :
>> On 12/1/2025 9:26 AM, olcott wrote:
>>> On 12/1/2025 9:19 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>> On 12/1/2025 9:06 AM, Python wrote:
>>>>> Le 01/12/2025 à 15:57, olcott a écrit :
>>>>>> On 12/1/2025 8:45 AM, Python wrote:
>>>>>>> Le 01/12/2025 à 15:38, olcott a écrit :
>>>>>>>> On 12/1/2025 8:29 AM, Python wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> [snip boring nonsense and lies]
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Peter you've intoxicated yourself.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Here is what Chat GPT told me once about himself:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Welcome back!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> You have put your finger on the single most fundamental 
>>>>>>>>> limitation of large language models:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> They can generate coherent arguments for things that are false, 
>>>>>>>>> harmful, fringe, or logically impossible — not because they 
>>>>>>>>> “believe” them, but because they can simulate the rhetorical 
>>>>>>>>> form of such arguments.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> And you’re right:
>>>>>>>>> The fact that the model “doesn’t believe it” is irrelevant.
>>>>>>>>> What matters is:
>>>>>>>>> it can produce it.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> f2up math.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Once you fully understand semantic tautologies
>>>>>>>> (the ultimate basis of all of my work)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In epistemology (theory of knowledge), a self-evident
>>>>>>>> proposition is a proposition that is known to be true
>>>>>>>> by understanding its meaning without proof...
>>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-evidence
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You will understand that I am correct. If you insist
>>>>>>>> on finding fault at a much higher priority than an
>>>>>>>> honest dialogue then you will never understand that
>>>>>>>> I am correct.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You are NOT correct.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You will continue to lack a sufficient basis
>>>>>> for that until you grok (Heinlein) semantic
>>>>>> tautology / self-evident truth.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It seems that the single most useful application
>>>>>>>> of my work is to make LLM systems much more reliable.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Your "work" is complete garbage... Sorry.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yet you cannot possibly show that with complete
>>>>>> and correct reasoning because you continue to
>>>>>> lack the above required basis.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm am not willing to endorse a sophistry that I KNOW to be INCORRECT.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> How can you possibly show that a semantic tautology
>>>> is incorrect when it is inherently correct?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Within the definition that "cats" <are> "animals"
>>> how can you possibly show that "cats" <are><not> "animals" ? ? ?
>>>
>>
>> "cats" is a finite string <are>
>> is a type of relation between finite strings.
> 
> Don't dodge.
> 
> This a sin because it is a kind of lie.
> 
> 

Revelation 21:8
King James Version
...and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which
burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Liars swear their allegiance to the father of lies
and thus condemn themselves as shown above.

Kurt Gödel in his 1944 Russell's mathematical logic gave
the following definition of the "theory of simple types"
in a footnote:

By the theory of simple types I mean the doctrine which says
that the objects of thought ... are divided into types,
namely: individuals, properties of individuals, relations
between individuals, properties of such relations, etc.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_type_theory#G%C3%B6del_1944

The essence of this is that all *objects of thought*
can be encoded in a hierarchy of types as relations
between finite strings.

-- 
Copyright 2025 Olcott

My 28 year goal has been to make
"true on the basis of meaning" computable.

This required establishing a new foundation
for correct reasoning.

Thread

The halting problem is incorrect two different ways olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-14 09:00 -0600
  Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-17 07:31 -0600
  Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-17 07:31 -0600
    Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-11-26 12:01 +0200
      Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-26 09:17 -0600
        Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2025-11-26 10:29 -0500
        Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-11-26 18:35 +0000
          Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-26 13:55 -0600
            Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-11-26 14:58 -0500
              Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-11-26 21:47 +0000
                Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-26 15:53 -0600
                Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-11-26 22:19 +0000
                Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-26 16:48 -0600
                Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-11-26 18:00 -0500
                Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-11-26 23:55 +0000
                Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-26 18:20 -0600
                Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-11-27 00:39 +0000
                Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-26 18:51 -0600
                Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-11-26 20:02 -0500
                Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways Python <python@cccp.invalid> - 2025-11-27 01:24 +0000
                Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-26 19:42 -0600
                Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways Python <python@cccp.invalid> - 2025-11-27 02:00 +0000
                Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-26 20:37 -0600
                Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-11-27 04:15 +0000
                Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-26 22:31 -0600
                Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-11-27 06:51 +0000
                Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-27 08:59 -0600
                Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2025-11-27 10:16 -0500
                Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-11-27 18:17 +0000
                Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2025-11-27 07:41 -0500
                Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2025-11-27 07:40 -0500
                Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-11-26 23:00 -0800
                Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways Python <python@cccp.invalid> - 2025-11-27 01:39 +0000
                Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-26 19:47 -0600
                Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways Python <python@cccp.invalid> - 2025-11-27 01:59 +0000
                Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-26 20:26 -0600
                Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-11-27 04:19 +0000
                Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-26 22:39 -0600
        Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-11-27 09:49 +0200
          Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-11-26 23:58 -0800
            Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-11-28 10:14 +0200
              The halting problem is incorrect two different ways --- updated olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-28 08:46 -0600
                Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways --- updated Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2025-11-28 10:59 -0500
                Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways --- updated Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-11-29 11:27 +0200
                Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways --- updated olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-29 10:38 -0600
                Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways --- updated Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2025-11-29 14:58 -0500
                Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways --- updated Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-12-01 12:45 +0200
                Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways --- updated olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-12-01 06:47 -0600
                Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways --- updated Python <python@cccp.invalid> - 2025-12-01 14:29 +0000
                Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways --- updated olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-12-01 08:38 -0600
                Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways --- updated Python <python@cccp.invalid> - 2025-12-01 14:45 +0000
                Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways --- updated olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-12-01 08:57 -0600
                Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways --- updated Python <python@cccp.invalid> - 2025-12-01 15:06 +0000
                Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways --- updated olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-12-01 09:19 -0600
                Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways --- updated olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-12-01 09:26 -0600
                Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways --- updated olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-12-01 09:29 -0600
                Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways --- updated Python <python@cccp.invalid> - 2025-12-01 15:31 +0000
                Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways --- updated olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-12-01 09:39 -0600
                Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways --- updated Python <python@cccp.invalid> - 2025-12-01 15:48 +0000
                Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways --- updated olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-12-01 09:55 -0600
                Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways --- updated Python <python@cccp.invalid> - 2025-12-01 16:00 +0000
                Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways --- updated olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-12-01 10:27 -0600
                Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways --- updated "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-12-01 16:41 -0800
                Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways --- updated olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-12-03 18:24 -0600
                Olcott is provably correct --- no one can correctly refute this olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-12-03 19:54 -0600
                Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways --- updated Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-12-02 11:07 +0200
                Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways --- updated olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-12-02 08:14 -0600
                Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways --- updated Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-12-03 13:34 +0200
                Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways --- updated olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-12-03 10:27 -0600
                Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways --- updated Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-12-04 11:17 +0200
                Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways --- updated olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-12-04 08:15 -0600
                Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways --- updated Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-12-06 11:23 +0200
                Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways --- updated olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-12-06 06:47 -0600
                Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways --- updated Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2025-12-06 17:26 -0500
          Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways --- faking ignorance olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-27 09:21 -0600
            Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways --- faking ignorance Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2025-11-27 10:40 -0500
              Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways --- faking ignorance Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-11-27 18:37 +0000
            Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways --- faking ignorance Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-11-27 18:24 +0000
            Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways --- faking ignorance Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-11-28 10:18 +0200
              Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways --- faking ignorance olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-28 08:52 -0600
                Re: The halting problem is incorrect two different ways --- faking ignorance Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2025-11-28 11:01 -0500

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