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Groups > sci.electronics.design > #469817 > unrolled thread
| Started by | Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2017-07-20 19:07 -0700 |
| Last post | 2017-07-21 17:20 -0400 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 153 — 23 participants |
Back to article view | Back to sci.electronics.design
OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-07-20 19:07 -0700
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-07-21 02:43 -0700
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue jack4747@gmail.com - 2017-07-21 02:59 -0700
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com - 2017-07-21 09:39 -0700
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue Taxed and Spent <nospamplease@nonospam.com> - 2017-07-21 09:56 -0700
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-07-21 10:08 -0700
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-07-24 03:56 -0700
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com - 2017-07-21 11:52 -0700
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com - 2017-07-21 03:37 -0700
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-07-21 08:30 -0700
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-07-21 08:38 -0700
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue "dcaster@krl.org" <dcaster@krl.org> - 2017-07-21 09:02 -0700
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue Taxed and Spent <nospamplease@nonospam.com> - 2017-07-21 09:10 -0700
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-07-21 09:13 -0700
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-07-21 13:47 -0400
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue krw@notreal.com - 2017-07-21 22:59 -0400
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-07-21 09:11 -0700
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-07-21 09:26 -0700
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue "dcaster@krl.org" <dcaster@krl.org> - 2017-07-21 10:46 -0700
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue krw@notreal.com - 2017-07-21 23:04 -0400
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com - 2017-07-21 09:44 -0700
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue John Larkin <jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> - 2017-07-21 10:24 -0700
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-07-21 10:29 -0700
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-07-21 13:48 -0400
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com - 2017-07-21 13:16 -0700
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue John Larkin <jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> - 2017-07-21 13:46 -0700
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-07-21 15:03 -0700
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue John Larkin <jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> - 2017-07-21 15:31 -0700
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-07-21 16:14 -0700
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com> - 2017-07-21 19:11 -0700
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-07-21 20:51 -0700
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue krw@notreal.com - 2017-07-21 23:08 -0400
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue John Larkin <jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> - 2017-07-24 09:51 -0700
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue krw@notreal.com - 2017-07-24 21:35 -0400
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-07-24 04:01 -0700
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue "dcaster@krl.org" <dcaster@krl.org> - 2017-07-21 11:48 -0700
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue John Larkin <jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> - 2017-07-21 11:58 -0700
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-07-21 23:57 +0100
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-07-21 19:02 -0400
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-07-22 00:30 +0100
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-07-22 01:04 -0400
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-07-22 09:39 +0100
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-07-22 09:09 -0400
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue "dcaster@krl.org" <dcaster@krl.org> - 2017-07-22 08:42 -0700
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-07-22 17:10 +0100
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-07-22 12:11 -0400
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue "dcaster@krl.org" <dcaster@krl.org> - 2017-07-22 12:15 -0700
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue krw@notreal.com - 2017-07-22 20:10 -0400
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue Sjouke Burry <burrynulnulfour@ppllaanneett.nnll> - 2017-07-23 22:33 +0200
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue krw@notreal.com - 2017-07-22 20:09 -0400
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com> - 2017-07-21 19:32 -0700
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-07-22 01:05 -0400
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-07-22 09:45 +0100
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-07-22 09:11 -0400
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-07-22 17:20 +0100
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-07-22 09:41 +0100
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-07-22 09:13 -0400
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-07-24 04:06 -0700
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue John Larkin <jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> - 2017-07-21 16:07 -0700
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-07-21 15:13 -0400
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue Mark Storkamp <mstorkamp@yahoo.com> - 2017-07-21 11:11 -0500
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-07-21 09:29 -0700
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue Mark Storkamp <mstorkamp@yahoo.com> - 2017-07-21 12:08 -0500
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue "dcaster@krl.org" <dcaster@krl.org> - 2017-07-21 10:57 -0700
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue krw@notreal.com - 2017-07-21 23:13 -0400
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue John Larkin <jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> - 2017-07-21 10:26 -0700
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-07-21 10:32 -0700
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue John Larkin <jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> - 2017-07-21 10:56 -0700
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-07-21 11:09 -0700
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-07-21 11:02 -0700
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-07-21 11:13 -0700
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue "dcaster@krl.org" <dcaster@krl.org> - 2017-07-21 11:40 -0700
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-07-21 12:54 -0700
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-07-21 15:14 -0700
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue krw@notreal.com - 2017-07-21 23:20 -0400
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue krw@notreal.com - 2017-07-21 23:16 -0400
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-07-22 13:26 -0700
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue krw@notreal.com - 2017-07-22 20:20 -0400
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue "Tom Del Rosso" <fizzbintuesday@that-google-mail-domain.com> - 2017-07-22 11:31 -0400
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-07-21 09:20 -0700
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-07-21 13:53 -0400
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-07-21 11:13 -0700
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue John Larkin <jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> - 2017-07-21 11:51 -0700
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-07-21 12:09 -0700
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue Mark Storkamp <mstorkamp@yahoo.com> - 2017-07-21 14:05 -0500
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-07-21 12:18 -0700
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue Mark Storkamp <mstorkamp@yahoo.com> - 2017-07-21 15:20 -0500
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-07-21 14:14 -0700
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-07-21 15:33 -0400
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-07-21 12:45 -0700
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-07-21 15:21 -0400
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-07-21 12:37 -0700
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue John Larkin <jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> - 2017-07-21 14:09 -0700
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-07-21 14:19 -0700
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue "dcaster@krl.org" <dcaster@krl.org> - 2017-07-21 14:38 -0700
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com> - 2017-07-21 15:12 -0700
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-07-24 04:13 -0700
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-07-24 10:01 -0700
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-07-25 03:33 -0700
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-07-25 07:29 -0700
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-07-25 08:38 -0700
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-07-25 11:06 -0700
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-07-25 11:28 -0700
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-07-25 12:01 -0700
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-07-25 12:30 -0700
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-07-25 12:37 -0700
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-07-25 12:54 -0700
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-07-25 13:26 -0700
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-07-25 13:34 -0700
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-07-25 13:50 -0700
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-07-25 14:03 -0700
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-07-25 14:19 -0700
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-07-25 14:50 -0700
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-07-25 15:12 -0700
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-07-26 04:20 -0700
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue krw@notreal.com - 2017-07-25 21:04 -0400
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-07-26 09:25 -0700
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-07-26 13:45 -0700
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue krw@notreal.com - 2017-07-26 21:43 -0400
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-07-25 19:06 -0400
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-07-26 04:09 -0700
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue jurb6006@gmail.com - 2017-07-26 16:44 -0700
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue Reinhardt Behm <rbehm@hushmail.com> - 2017-07-27 10:24 +0800
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-07-26 19:36 -0700
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue Reinhardt Behm <rbehm@hushmail.com> - 2017-07-28 13:09 +0800
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue jurb6006@gmail.com - 2017-07-27 22:42 -0700
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-07-28 06:54 -0700
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue Cursitor Doom <curd@notformail.com> - 2017-07-28 21:03 +0000
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-07-28 14:16 -0700
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-07-31 05:29 -0700
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-07-28 17:59 -0400
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue krw@notreal.com - 2017-07-28 22:32 -0400
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-07-31 05:27 -0700
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue krw@notreal.com - 2017-07-28 22:30 -0400
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue Reinhardt Behm <rbehm@hushmail.com> - 2017-07-29 20:02 +0800
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue krw@notreal.com - 2017-07-29 10:03 -0400
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue Reinhardt Behm <rbehm@hushmail.com> - 2017-07-29 22:07 +0800
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue krw@notreal.com - 2017-07-29 10:55 -0400
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-07-29 08:05 -0700
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue Taxed and Spent <nospamplease@nonospam.com> - 2017-07-26 19:37 -0700
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-07-27 05:51 -0700
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue Taxed and Spent <nospamplease@nonospam.com> - 2017-07-27 06:09 -0700
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-07-28 06:40 -0700
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue Cursitor Doom <curd@notformail.com> - 2017-07-28 21:25 +0000
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com> - 2017-07-28 17:50 -0700
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue jurb6006@gmail.com - 2017-07-27 21:35 -0700
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue Reinhardt Behm <rbehm@hushmail.com> - 2017-07-28 12:58 +0800
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue Robert Baer <robertbaer@localnet.com> - 2017-08-01 02:19 -0700
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue Cursitor Doom <curd@notformail.com> - 2017-07-28 20:21 +0000
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-07-26 22:39 -0400
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue jurb6006@gmail.com - 2017-07-27 22:07 -0700
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue John S <Sophi.2@invalid.org> - 2017-07-21 13:12 -0500
Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-07-21 17:20 -0400
Page 5 of 8 — ← Prev page 1 2 3 4 [5] 6 7 8 Next page →
| From | rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-07-21 13:53 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <okterm$sua$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #469883 |
Joerg wrote on 7/21/2017 12:20 PM: > On 2017-07-20 19:07, Jim Thompson wrote: >> OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue... >> >> <http://twitchy.com/brettt-3136/2017/07/20/community-colleges-looking-to-drop-algebra-as-a-requirement-sounds-a-little-anti-science/> >> > > > My jaw dropped when they did that. "Not enough kids can pass the test .... > oh, let's just drop it then". > > Time for better schools, and certainly not the schools the unions want. In reality, if you aren't on a science track, why learn algebra? It's a bit like requiring science majors to take Medieval history. Nice to know, but how useful will it be? There's only so many hours of class time available to get a degree. I seem to recall the EE program at U of Md had some 130 hours of requisites. Other programs get you out the door in 120 credits with room for electives. I think at Drexel EE was a five year program. -- Rick C
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| From | Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-07-21 11:13 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <eteuhvF2bbjU1@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #469919 |
On 2017-07-21 10:53, rickman wrote: > Joerg wrote on 7/21/2017 12:20 PM: >> On 2017-07-20 19:07, Jim Thompson wrote: >>> OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue... >>> >>> <http://twitchy.com/brettt-3136/2017/07/20/community-colleges-looking-to-drop-algebra-as-a-requirement-sounds-a-little-anti-science/> >>> >>> >> >> >> My jaw dropped when they did that. "Not enough kids can pass the test >> .... >> oh, let's just drop it then". >> >> Time for better schools, and certainly not the schools the unions want. > > In reality, if you aren't on a science track, why learn algebra? Machinists can hardly be called scientists. Yet those who do not master algebra will soon hit a hard ceiling when moving up the ranks and into serious CNC territory. They will be left behind by their peers who do master algebra, who will then land the better jobs and enjoy higher pay. The same goes for people who go into accounting, business management, sales, marketing, and so on. They will eventually have to come up with a formula here and there, jockey with a database, stuff like that. When they can't they'll hit a hard career ceiling. > ... It's a > bit like requiring science majors to take Medieval history. Nice to > know, but how useful will it be? There's only so many hours of class > time available to get a degree. I seem to recall the EE program at U of > Md had some 130 hours of requisites. Other programs get you out the > door in 120 credits with room for electives. I think at Drexel EE was a > five year program. > I am all for ditching nonsensical state-mandated stuff but tossing out STEM courses is the perfect path to mediocrity. Down the hill. Which ultimately will result in higher structural unemployment and a diminishing labor force participation rate. It's the same nonsense as easing off on requiring all classes to be taught in English. That results in a 2nd class work force. People who will likely never land a really well-paying job. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/
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| From | John Larkin <jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-07-21 11:51 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <b0j4nc9h5s84trv5vtavh3argro6k7mmp0@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #469928 |
On Fri, 21 Jul 2017 11:13:31 -0700, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> wrote: >On 2017-07-21 10:53, rickman wrote: >> Joerg wrote on 7/21/2017 12:20 PM: >>> On 2017-07-20 19:07, Jim Thompson wrote: >>>> OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue... >>>> >>>> <http://twitchy.com/brettt-3136/2017/07/20/community-colleges-looking-to-drop-algebra-as-a-requirement-sounds-a-little-anti-science/> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> My jaw dropped when they did that. "Not enough kids can pass the test >>> .... >>> oh, let's just drop it then". >>> >>> Time for better schools, and certainly not the schools the unions want. >> >> In reality, if you aren't on a science track, why learn algebra? > > >Machinists can hardly be called scientists. Yet those who do not master >algebra will soon hit a hard ceiling when moving up the ranks and into >serious CNC territory. They will be left behind by their peers who do >master algebra, who will then land the better jobs and enjoy higher pay. Our production manager is also a super machinist and does a lot of our mechanical design, and programs our CNC machines. I don't think he does any algebra or trig. He uses Autocad and Solidworks, a lot like I use Spice. There's no reason to do the math to calculate a hole location when you can let Autocad do it for you. Numerical solutions do not require symbolic solutions. > >The same goes for people who go into accounting, business management, >sales, marketing, and so on. They will eventually have to come up with a >formula here and there, jockey with a database, stuff like that. When >they can't they'll hit a hard career ceiling. I guess I've hit mine! -- John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc picosecond timing precision measurement jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com http://www.highlandtechnology.com
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| From | Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-07-21 12:09 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <etf1r2F339tU1@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #469938 |
On 2017-07-21 11:51, John Larkin wrote: > On Fri, 21 Jul 2017 11:13:31 -0700, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> > wrote: > >> On 2017-07-21 10:53, rickman wrote: >>> Joerg wrote on 7/21/2017 12:20 PM: >>>> On 2017-07-20 19:07, Jim Thompson wrote: >>>>> OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue... >>>>> >>>>> <http://twitchy.com/brettt-3136/2017/07/20/community-colleges-looking-to-drop-algebra-as-a-requirement-sounds-a-little-anti-science/> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> My jaw dropped when they did that. "Not enough kids can pass the test >>>> .... >>>> oh, let's just drop it then". >>>> >>>> Time for better schools, and certainly not the schools the unions want. >>> >>> In reality, if you aren't on a science track, why learn algebra? >> >> >> Machinists can hardly be called scientists. Yet those who do not master >> algebra will soon hit a hard ceiling when moving up the ranks and into >> serious CNC territory. They will be left behind by their peers who do >> master algebra, who will then land the better jobs and enjoy higher pay. > > Our production manager is also a super machinist and does a lot of our > mechanical design, and programs our CNC machines. I don't think he > does any algebra or trig. He uses Autocad and Solidworks, a lot like I > use Spice. There's no reason to do the math to calculate a hole > location when you can let Autocad do it for you. Numerical solutions > do not require symbolic solutions. > If you always have CAM files for everything you machine it's ok. However, many machine shops that support a large production unit get requests all the time with just sketches. Or where the machinist has to gown up, go into the clean room and take measurements. Some of those production tools can't really be machined without CNC and the machinist has to generate the formulae and code. Algebra can be found in fields where one would never expect it. For example, I design a lot of electronic for the oil industry. It was surprising how algebra-heavy their sensor stuff is. >> >> The same goes for people who go into accounting, business management, >> sales, marketing, and so on. They will eventually have to come up with a >> formula here and there, jockey with a database, stuff like that. When >> they can't they'll hit a hard career ceiling. > > I guess I've hit mine! > Full confession: I was never a math genius either. My dad always said that when it comes to difficult classes I'd try to hop on the train at the last second and that one day I'd miss and hit the dirt. A couple years ago I had a really tough formula to hash out. One where I needed to extend the sheet of paper because it got too long even in small print. I was close to giving it along with some money to a university student to solve. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/
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| From | Mark Storkamp <mstorkamp@yahoo.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-07-21 14:05 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <mstorkamp-D4A9DB.14054221072017@88-209-239-213.giganet.hu> |
| In reply to | #469928 |
In article <eteuhvF2bbjU1@mid.individual.net>, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> wrote: > On 2017-07-21 10:53, rickman wrote: > > Joerg wrote on 7/21/2017 12:20 PM: > >> On 2017-07-20 19:07, Jim Thompson wrote: > >>> OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue... > >>> > >>> <http://twitchy.com/brettt-3136/2017/07/20/community-colleges-looking-to-d > >>> rop-algebra-as-a-requirement-sounds-a-little-anti-science/> > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > >> My jaw dropped when they did that. "Not enough kids can pass the test > >> .... > >> oh, let's just drop it then". > >> > >> Time for better schools, and certainly not the schools the unions want. > > > > In reality, if you aren't on a science track, why learn algebra? > > > Machinists can hardly be called scientists. Yet those who do not master > algebra will soon hit a hard ceiling when moving up the ranks and into > serious CNC territory. They will be left behind by their peers who do > master algebra, who will then land the better jobs and enjoy higher pay. I can't think of a single example of when algebra is required to operate a CNC machine. Program one, sure sometimes (not often). But not to either set up or run one. If a shop's busy, machinist shouldn't be wasting time standing at a machine writing and punching in a program anyway.
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| From | Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-07-21 12:18 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <etf2cjF36kvU1@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #469942 |
On 2017-07-21 12:05, Mark Storkamp wrote: > In article <eteuhvF2bbjU1@mid.individual.net>, > Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> wrote: > >> On 2017-07-21 10:53, rickman wrote: >>> Joerg wrote on 7/21/2017 12:20 PM: >>>> On 2017-07-20 19:07, Jim Thompson wrote: >>>>> OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue... >>>>> >>>>> <http://twitchy.com/brettt-3136/2017/07/20/community-colleges-looking-to-d >>>>> rop-algebra-as-a-requirement-sounds-a-little-anti-science/> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> My jaw dropped when they did that. "Not enough kids can pass the test >>>> .... >>>> oh, let's just drop it then". >>>> >>>> Time for better schools, and certainly not the schools the unions want. >>> >>> In reality, if you aren't on a science track, why learn algebra? >> >> >> Machinists can hardly be called scientists. Yet those who do not master >> algebra will soon hit a hard ceiling when moving up the ranks and into >> serious CNC territory. They will be left behind by their peers who do >> master algebra, who will then land the better jobs and enjoy higher pay. > > I can't think of a single example of when algebra is required to operate > a CNC machine. Program one, sure sometimes (not often). But not to > either set up or run one. If a shop's busy, machinist shouldn't be > wasting time standing at a machine writing and punching in a program > anyway. > I an fast-acting production support function he will have to. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/
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| From | Mark Storkamp <mstorkamp@yahoo.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-07-21 15:20 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <mstorkamp-F380D2.15200721072017@88-209-239-213.giganet.hu> |
| In reply to | #469948 |
In article <etf2cjF36kvU1@mid.individual.net>, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> wrote: > On 2017-07-21 12:05, Mark Storkamp wrote: > > In article <eteuhvF2bbjU1@mid.individual.net>, > > Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> wrote: > > > >> On 2017-07-21 10:53, rickman wrote: > >>> Joerg wrote on 7/21/2017 12:20 PM: > >>>> On 2017-07-20 19:07, Jim Thompson wrote: > >>>>> OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue... > >>>>> > >>>>> <http://twitchy.com/brettt-3136/2017/07/20/community-colleges-looking-to > >>>>> -d > >>>>> rop-algebra-as-a-requirement-sounds-a-little-anti-science/> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> My jaw dropped when they did that. "Not enough kids can pass the test > >>>> .... > >>>> oh, let's just drop it then". > >>>> > >>>> Time for better schools, and certainly not the schools the unions want. > >>> > >>> In reality, if you aren't on a science track, why learn algebra? > >> > >> > >> Machinists can hardly be called scientists. Yet those who do not master > >> algebra will soon hit a hard ceiling when moving up the ranks and into > >> serious CNC territory. They will be left behind by their peers who do > >> master algebra, who will then land the better jobs and enjoy higher pay. > > > > I can't think of a single example of when algebra is required to operate > > a CNC machine. Program one, sure sometimes (not often). But not to > > either set up or run one. If a shop's busy, machinist shouldn't be > > wasting time standing at a machine writing and punching in a program > > anyway. > > > > I an fast-acting production support function he will have to. It seems our basic definitions differ. To me a machinist is in production. Someone in production support is not a machinist (although they may have been at one time). And still, I'm not seeing the need for algebra.
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| From | Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-07-21 14:14 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <etf95kF4lvvU2@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #469963 |
On 2017-07-21 13:20, Mark Storkamp wrote: > In article <etf2cjF36kvU1@mid.individual.net>, > Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> wrote: > >> On 2017-07-21 12:05, Mark Storkamp wrote: >>> In article <eteuhvF2bbjU1@mid.individual.net>, >>> Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> wrote: >>> >>>> On 2017-07-21 10:53, rickman wrote: >>>>> Joerg wrote on 7/21/2017 12:20 PM: >>>>>> On 2017-07-20 19:07, Jim Thompson wrote: >>>>>>> OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> <http://twitchy.com/brettt-3136/2017/07/20/community-colleges-looking-to >>>>>>> -d >>>>>>> rop-algebra-as-a-requirement-sounds-a-little-anti-science/> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> My jaw dropped when they did that. "Not enough kids can pass the test >>>>>> .... >>>>>> oh, let's just drop it then". >>>>>> >>>>>> Time for better schools, and certainly not the schools the unions want. >>>>> >>>>> In reality, if you aren't on a science track, why learn algebra? >>>> >>>> >>>> Machinists can hardly be called scientists. Yet those who do not master >>>> algebra will soon hit a hard ceiling when moving up the ranks and into >>>> serious CNC territory. They will be left behind by their peers who do >>>> master algebra, who will then land the better jobs and enjoy higher pay. >>> >>> I can't think of a single example of when algebra is required to operate >>> a CNC machine. Program one, sure sometimes (not often). But not to >>> either set up or run one. If a shop's busy, machinist shouldn't be >>> wasting time standing at a machine writing and punching in a program >>> anyway. >>> >> >> I an fast-acting production support function he will have to. > > It seems our basic definitions differ. To me a machinist is in > production. Someone in production support is not a machinist (although > they may have been at one time). And still, I'm not seeing the need for > algebra. > Maybe you don't live in the US. Here, a machinist is often someone who works in the machine shop of a company. That machine shop is "the" go-to place for all things mechanical. When production needs a special tool or engineering needs an intricate fixture that's where they go. Often with the proverbial scribbles on a napkin in hand. These guys are expected to pull it off. Simple things such as mass production from CAM files are typically farmed out. Just like what us electrical types do with board assembly. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/
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| From | rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-07-21 15:33 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <oktklv$h6q$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #469942 |
Mark Storkamp wrote on 7/21/2017 3:05 PM: > In article <eteuhvF2bbjU1@mid.individual.net>, > Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> wrote: > >> On 2017-07-21 10:53, rickman wrote: >>> Joerg wrote on 7/21/2017 12:20 PM: >>>> On 2017-07-20 19:07, Jim Thompson wrote: >>>>> OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue... >>>>> >>>>> <http://twitchy.com/brettt-3136/2017/07/20/community-colleges-looking-to-d >>>>> rop-algebra-as-a-requirement-sounds-a-little-anti-science/> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> My jaw dropped when they did that. "Not enough kids can pass the test >>>> .... >>>> oh, let's just drop it then". >>>> >>>> Time for better schools, and certainly not the schools the unions want. >>> >>> In reality, if you aren't on a science track, why learn algebra? >> >> >> Machinists can hardly be called scientists. Yet those who do not master >> algebra will soon hit a hard ceiling when moving up the ranks and into >> serious CNC territory. They will be left behind by their peers who do >> master algebra, who will then land the better jobs and enjoy higher pay. > > I can't think of a single example of when algebra is required to operate > a CNC machine. Program one, sure sometimes (not often). But not to > either set up or run one. If a shop's busy, machinist shouldn't be > wasting time standing at a machine writing and punching in a program > anyway. You aren't going to win this one. When Joerg gets a bone in his mouth... If he knows one machinist who uses algebra in his work that will set the gold standard for all machinist jobs. It won't matter what anyone says. That said, I've never understood why people can't do the things I do easily. That's my failure. Lots of people aren't so good with math and 99.9% of the time it doesn't matter. Just like they don't even teach basic arithmetic as a staple. Kids learn how the basics work and then are allowed to use calculators. In our day we didn't have that luxury, but it can work for them. Heck, I handed a checker some bills and some change the other day and the 20 something smiled at me like we had a shared secret, obviously she understood I was trying to get rid of a handful of coins to get back a single quarter. Usually I get dumb looks. One guy punched in the bills even though I said, "let me give you some coins". Then he looked unhappy that I was going to push the coins on him anyway. He took my word for it that he needed to give me back just two dollars. Talking about this stuff makes me feel old. It is a joke with my friends that I can do a lot of math exactly in my head. I feel like I'm putting on a show sometimes. -- Rick C
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| From | Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-07-21 12:45 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <etf3v1F3gq8U1@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #469952 |
On 2017-07-21 12:33, rickman wrote: > Mark Storkamp wrote on 7/21/2017 3:05 PM: >> In article <eteuhvF2bbjU1@mid.individual.net>, >> Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> wrote: >> >>> On 2017-07-21 10:53, rickman wrote: >>>> Joerg wrote on 7/21/2017 12:20 PM: >>>>> On 2017-07-20 19:07, Jim Thompson wrote: >>>>>> OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue... >>>>>> >>>>>> <http://twitchy.com/brettt-3136/2017/07/20/community-colleges-looking-to-d >>>>>> >>>>>> rop-algebra-as-a-requirement-sounds-a-little-anti-science/> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> My jaw dropped when they did that. "Not enough kids can pass the test >>>>> .... >>>>> oh, let's just drop it then". >>>>> >>>>> Time for better schools, and certainly not the schools the unions >>>>> want. >>>> >>>> In reality, if you aren't on a science track, why learn algebra? >>> >>> >>> Machinists can hardly be called scientists. Yet those who do not master >>> algebra will soon hit a hard ceiling when moving up the ranks and into >>> serious CNC territory. They will be left behind by their peers who do >>> master algebra, who will then land the better jobs and enjoy higher pay. >> >> I can't think of a single example of when algebra is required to operate >> a CNC machine. Program one, sure sometimes (not often). But not to >> either set up or run one. If a shop's busy, machinist shouldn't be >> wasting time standing at a machine writing and punching in a program >> anyway. > > You aren't going to win this one. When Joerg gets a bone in his > mouth... If he knows one machinist who uses algebra in his work that > will set the gold standard for all machinist jobs. It won't matter what > anyone says. > I know a lot of machinists who use algebra. Those are generally the higher-payed ones who rarely do grunt work. > That said, I've never understood why people can't do the things I do > easily. That's my failure. Lots of people aren't so good with math and > 99.9% of the time it doesn't matter. Just like they don't even teach > basic arithmetic as a staple. Kids learn how the basics work and then > are allowed to use calculators. In our day we didn't have that luxury, > but it can work for them. > You obviously never sat in board meetings and the like at critical times. There you are expected to calculate in your head all the time and immediately, prontissomo, raise your hand if something smells foul. "Guys, wait a minute, that margin formula over there does not really compute". In a board room it is highly frowned upon to punch virtual keys on a smart phone and you'd be way too slow with that method anyhow. Those meetings seem ritzy, easy and plush with the free bagels and coffee. They are not. Afterwards most people are dead-tired. [...] -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/
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| From | rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-07-21 15:21 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <oktjvo$e5t$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #469928 |
Joerg wrote on 7/21/2017 2:13 PM: > On 2017-07-21 10:53, rickman wrote: >> Joerg wrote on 7/21/2017 12:20 PM: >>> On 2017-07-20 19:07, Jim Thompson wrote: >>>> OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue... >>>> >>>> <http://twitchy.com/brettt-3136/2017/07/20/community-colleges-looking-to-drop-algebra-as-a-requirement-sounds-a-little-anti-science/> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> My jaw dropped when they did that. "Not enough kids can pass the test >>> .... >>> oh, let's just drop it then". >>> >>> Time for better schools, and certainly not the schools the unions want. >> >> In reality, if you aren't on a science track, why learn algebra? > > > Machinists can hardly be called scientists. Yet those who do not master > algebra will soon hit a hard ceiling when moving up the ranks and into > serious CNC territory. They will be left behind by their peers who do master > algebra, who will then land the better jobs and enjoy higher pay. You can say that, but I've never met a machinist who used algebra. The problems encountered by machinist have been solved for them either by methods of setting up the machine or in the software used. I learned some very handy tricks for using a milling machine but since I don't use a milling machine more than that one time I have forgotten them all. > The same goes for people who go into accounting, business management, sales, > marketing, and so on. They will eventually have to come up with a formula > here and there, jockey with a database, stuff like that. When they can't > they'll hit a hard career ceiling. Don't we all. Again, the successful accountants I've met simply knew the law and knew how to use the programs on the computer *or* the higher paid accountants knew business management. >> ... It's a >> bit like requiring science majors to take Medieval history. Nice to >> know, but how useful will it be? There's only so many hours of class >> time available to get a degree. I seem to recall the EE program at U of >> Md had some 130 hours of requisites. Other programs get you out the >> door in 120 credits with room for electives. I think at Drexel EE was a >> five year program. >> > > I am all for ditching nonsensical state-mandated stuff but tossing out STEM > courses is the perfect path to mediocrity. Down the hill. Which ultimately > will result in higher structural unemployment and a diminishing labor force > participation rate. Maybe you need to learn reading comprehension. No one said anything about tossing out STEM courses. The issue is not keeping algebra as a requirement for *all* students in community colleges who often earn *no* degree or at best a 2 year degree. I expect if you are in a STEM program there will still be math requirements. > It's the same nonsense as easing off on requiring all classes to be taught > in English. That results in a 2nd class work force. People who will likely > never land a really well-paying job. Lol! You really do think in black and white. -- Rick C
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| From | Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-07-21 12:37 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <etf3f9F3enfU1@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #469949 |
On 2017-07-21 12:21, rickman wrote: > Joerg wrote on 7/21/2017 2:13 PM: >> On 2017-07-21 10:53, rickman wrote: >>> Joerg wrote on 7/21/2017 12:20 PM: >>>> On 2017-07-20 19:07, Jim Thompson wrote: >>>>> OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue... >>>>> >>>>> <http://twitchy.com/brettt-3136/2017/07/20/community-colleges-looking-to-drop-algebra-as-a-requirement-sounds-a-little-anti-science/> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> My jaw dropped when they did that. "Not enough kids can pass the test >>>> .... >>>> oh, let's just drop it then". >>>> >>>> Time for better schools, and certainly not the schools the unions want. >>> >>> In reality, if you aren't on a science track, why learn algebra? >> >> >> Machinists can hardly be called scientists. Yet those who do not master >> algebra will soon hit a hard ceiling when moving up the ranks and into >> serious CNC territory. They will be left behind by their peers who do >> master >> algebra, who will then land the better jobs and enjoy higher pay. > > You can say that, but I've never met a machinist who used algebra. I have and those were the highly paid guys in the shop. > ... The > problems encountered by machinist have been solved for them either by > methods of setting up the machine or in the software used. Jobs that can be done by using printed examples, code examples or CAM files almost anyone can do these days. Then there are jobs where a production engineer walks in and says "Well, we have this weird wombombulator that just broke and there is no documentation and we have an acute production line stop because of it. Can you help us? Fast?". That's the people who make the big bucks but they have to be able to actually program a CNC machine and that can require a good dose of algebra. This is also what the big players say: http://www.1pds.com/5-things-all-cnc-machinists-should-know/ Quote "It could go without saying that machinists need a firm understanding of algebra and geometry". > ... I learned > some very handy tricks for using a milling machine but since I don't use > a milling machine more than that one time I have forgotten them all. > Naturally, same here. The black thumb I had for almost a year when a machine piece flew off has healed off. By that time I had gotten rusty again. > >> The same goes for people who go into accounting, business management, >> sales, >> marketing, and so on. They will eventually have to come up with a formula >> here and there, jockey with a database, stuff like that. When they can't >> they'll hit a hard career ceiling. > > Don't we all. Again, the successful accountants I've met simply knew > the law and knew how to use the programs on the computer *or* the higher > paid accountants knew business management. > You are forgetting the people who are setting up all the databases, query formula sets and such. Whether they are contractors, consultants or employees doesn't matter. They are the ones who will make decent money because everything would collapse without them. It's similar to us analog guys. We are not simply "know-the-laws" guys, we are also usually not high-class managers, we are the sorely needed folks who solve the tough noise-critical stuff. > >>> ... It's a >>> bit like requiring science majors to take Medieval history. Nice to >>> know, but how useful will it be? There's only so many hours of class >>> time available to get a degree. I seem to recall the EE program at U of >>> Md had some 130 hours of requisites. Other programs get you out the >>> door in 120 credits with room for electives. I think at Drexel EE was a >>> five year program. >>> >> >> I am all for ditching nonsensical state-mandated stuff but tossing out >> STEM >> courses is the perfect path to mediocrity. Down the hill. Which >> ultimately >> will result in higher structural unemployment and a diminishing labor >> force >> participation rate. > > Maybe you need to learn reading comprehension. No one said anything > about tossing out STEM courses. The issue is not keeping algebra as a > requirement for *all* students in community colleges who often earn *no* > degree or at best a 2 year degree. I expect if you are in a STEM > program there will still be math requirements. > Algebra is part of STEM. When you toss that for supposedly "unrelated field students" you are preventing many people from becoming experts in their field and depriving them from becoming true generalists. > >> It's the same nonsense as easing off on requiring all classes to be >> taught >> in English. That results in a 2nd class work force. People who will >> likely >> never land a really well-paying job. > > Lol! You really do think in black and white. > Study Jaime Escalante, an immigrant teacher who was also staunchly opposed to bilingual eduction. Maybe then you understand. This guy really knew. https://www.biography.com/people/jaime-escalante-189368 -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/
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| From | John Larkin <jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-07-21 14:09 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <7mq4nch2hmh4qrr45obgn4u87kpkevsnjr@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #469953 |
On Fri, 21 Jul 2017 12:37:24 -0700, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> wrote: >On 2017-07-21 12:21, rickman wrote: >> Joerg wrote on 7/21/2017 2:13 PM: >>> On 2017-07-21 10:53, rickman wrote: >>>> Joerg wrote on 7/21/2017 12:20 PM: >>>>> On 2017-07-20 19:07, Jim Thompson wrote: >>>>>> OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue... >>>>>> >>>>>> <http://twitchy.com/brettt-3136/2017/07/20/community-colleges-looking-to-drop-algebra-as-a-requirement-sounds-a-little-anti-science/> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> My jaw dropped when they did that. "Not enough kids can pass the test >>>>> .... >>>>> oh, let's just drop it then". >>>>> >>>>> Time for better schools, and certainly not the schools the unions want. >>>> >>>> In reality, if you aren't on a science track, why learn algebra? >>> >>> >>> Machinists can hardly be called scientists. Yet those who do not master >>> algebra will soon hit a hard ceiling when moving up the ranks and into >>> serious CNC territory. They will be left behind by their peers who do >>> master >>> algebra, who will then land the better jobs and enjoy higher pay. >> >> You can say that, but I've never met a machinist who used algebra. > > >I have and those were the highly paid guys in the shop. > > >> ... The >> problems encountered by machinist have been solved for them either by >> methods of setting up the machine or in the software used. > > >Jobs that can be done by using printed examples, code examples or CAM >files almost anyone can do these days. Then there are jobs where a >production engineer walks in and says "Well, we have this weird >wombombulator that just broke and there is no documentation and we have >an acute production line stop because of it. Can you help us? Fast?". >That's the people who make the big bucks but they have to be able to >actually program a CNC machine and that can require a good dose of algebra. > >This is also what the big players say: > >http://www.1pds.com/5-things-all-cnc-machinists-should-know/ > >Quote "It could go without saying that machinists need a firm >understanding of algebra and geometry". > > >> ... I learned >> some very handy tricks for using a milling machine but since I don't use >> a milling machine more than that one time I have forgotten them all. >> > >Naturally, same here. The black thumb I had for almost a year when a >machine piece flew off has healed off. By that time I had gotten rusty >again. > We have a Tormach n/c mill, which I don't know how to program. And a beautiful old manual Bridgeport, which I like. You can *feel* it cutting metal. We've got to move both of them soon, down some stairs into a basement. A good rigger can move anything. -- John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc picosecond timing precision measurement jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com http://www.highlandtechnology.com
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| From | Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-07-21 14:19 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <etf9ecF4p5cU1@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #469970 |
On 2017-07-21 14:09, John Larkin wrote: > On Fri, 21 Jul 2017 12:37:24 -0700, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> > wrote: > >> On 2017-07-21 12:21, rickman wrote: [...] >>> ... I learned >>> some very handy tricks for using a milling machine but since I don't use >>> a milling machine more than that one time I have forgotten them all. >>> >> >> Naturally, same here. The black thumb I had for almost a year when a >> machine piece flew off has healed off. By that time I had gotten rusty >> again. >> > > We have a Tormach n/c mill, which I don't know how to program. And a > beautiful old manual Bridgeport, which I like. You can *feel* it > cutting metal. > My mountain bike buddy uses CNC-enhanced Bridgeports at work. The kind where you often do have to know how to program them. Their formal trade name is tool & die maker but everyone including themselves call them machinist. > We've got to move both of them soon, down some stairs into a basement. > A good rigger can move anything. > I always wonder how they do that without ruining their lower backs. Just getting a modified upright wine fridge (now a beer fermenting chamber) into our downstairs room was the limit for me and that weighed under 500lbs. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/
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| From | "dcaster@krl.org" <dcaster@krl.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-07-21 14:38 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <95d99fa7-b3dc-4d1f-bc73-f5043f96b443@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #469970 |
On Friday, July 21, 2017 at 5:09:51 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
> >>>>> ....
>
> We have a Tormach n/c mill, which I don't know how to program. And a
> beautiful old manual Bridgeport, which I like. You can *feel* it
> cutting metal.
>
> We've got to move both of them soon, down some stairs into a basement.
> A good rigger can move anything.
>
>
> --
>
> John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc
Before you move the Bridgeport, measure its height and the height of the ceiling in the basement.
Bridgeport will not fit into most basements.
Dan
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| From | whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-07-21 15:12 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <28576bbb-048a-4729-99f4-46ec9ea7c31c@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #469919 |
On Friday, July 21, 2017 at 10:53:44 AM UTC-7, rickman wrote: > Joerg wrote on 7/21/2017 12:20 PM: > > My jaw dropped when they did that. "Not enough kids can pass the test .... > > oh, let's just drop it then". > > > > Time for better schools, and certainly not the schools the unions want. > In reality, if you aren't on a science track, why learn algebra? It's a bit > like requiring science majors to take Medieval history. Odd question. The 'science track' doesn't diverge from the real world at any point, and history is something ALL educated persons should be able to grasp. Algebra likewise. A good school exercises the ability to grasp (education), as much as exercising a skill set (training). In particular, anyone who uses a spreadsheet for calculations should know algebra, or the spreadsheet becomes a mystical guide instead of a tool. It doesn't matter if you have skill at using the algebraic principles, but it DOES matter if the concepts are unfamiliar.
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| From | bill.sloman@ieee.org |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-07-24 04:13 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <dc4587da-fe8e-4762-838d-ada649ecd97e@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #469883 |
On Friday, July 21, 2017 at 6:20:19 PM UTC+2, Joerg wrote: > On 2017-07-20 19:07, Jim Thompson wrote: > > OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue... > > > > <http://twitchy.com/brettt-3136/2017/07/20/community-colleges-looking-to-drop-algebra-as-a-requirement-sounds-a-little-anti-science/> > > > My jaw dropped when they did that. "Not enough kids can pass the test > ... oh, let's just drop it then". > > Time for better schools, and certainly not the schools the unions want. Have you asked a union about that? They'd love to see extra teachers hired to teach those classes more intensively, and they'd be equally happy to see successful teachers paid more for their capacity to get more kids to meet the requirements. Unions are at least as much about getting better work conditions and better productivity as they are about getting better pay for the rank and file. They tend to be less interesed in getting exceptional rewards for the exceptionally competent, mainly because the exceptionally competent can usually do that for themsselves. -- Bill Sloman, Sydney
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| From | Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-07-24 10:01 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <etmnerFpebcU1@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #470340 |
On 2017-07-24 04:13, bill.sloman@ieee.org wrote: > On Friday, July 21, 2017 at 6:20:19 PM UTC+2, Joerg wrote: >> On 2017-07-20 19:07, Jim Thompson wrote: >>> OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue... >>> >>> <http://twitchy.com/brettt-3136/2017/07/20/community-colleges-looking-to-drop-algebra-as-a-requirement-sounds-a-little-anti-science/> >> >> >> >>> My jaw dropped when they did that. "Not enough kids can pass the test >> ... oh, let's just drop it then". >> >> Time for better schools, and certainly not the schools the unions >> want. > > Have you asked a union about that? > Not necessary. This says it all: http://calwatchdog.com/2012/10/22/new-law-dumbs-down-calif-math-performance/ > They'd love to see extra teachers hired to teach those classes more > intensively, and they'd be equally happy to see successful teachers > paid more for their capacity to get more kids to meet the > requirements. > > Unions are at least as much about getting better work conditions and > better productivity as they are about getting better pay for the rank > and file. They tend to be less interesed in getting exceptional > rewards for the exceptionally competent, mainly because the > exceptionally competent can usually do that for themsselves. > They usually care very little about the kids being educated. It's mostly about union dues and turf protection. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/
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| From | bill.sloman@ieee.org |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-07-25 03:33 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <ff9f39c2-860b-4315-a6ef-73026e06a859@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #470392 |
On Monday, July 24, 2017 at 7:01:21 PM UTC+2, Joerg wrote: > On 2017-07-24 04:13, bill.sloman@ieee.org wrote: > > On Friday, July 21, 2017 at 6:20:19 PM UTC+2, Joerg wrote: > >> On 2017-07-20 19:07, Jim Thompson wrote: > >>> OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue... > >>> > >>> <http://twitchy.com/brettt-3136/2017/07/20/community-colleges-looking-to-drop-algebra-as-a-requirement-sounds-a-little-anti-science/> > >> > >> > >> > >>> > My jaw dropped when they did that. "Not enough kids can pass the test > >> ... oh, let's just drop it then". > >> > >> Time for better schools, and certainly not the schools the unions > >> want. > > > > Have you asked a union about that? > > > > Not necessary. This says it all: > > http://calwatchdog.com/2012/10/22/new-law-dumbs-down-calif-math-performance/ > > > > They'd love to see extra teachers hired to teach those classes more > > intensively, and they'd be equally happy to see successful teachers > > paid more for their capacity to get more kids to meet the > > requirements. > > > > Unions are at least as much about getting better work conditions and > > better productivity as they are about getting better pay for the rank > > and file. They tend to be less interesed in getting exceptional > > rewards for the exceptionally competent, mainly because the > > exceptionally competent can usually do that for themsselves. > > > > They usually care very little about the kids being educated. It's mostly > about union dues and turf protection. That's what US newspapers say about them. The US as a whole is uniquely anti-union for an advanced industrial country. When I was marginally involved with my trade union in the UK, one of the things I did learn was that US-owned companies were pathologically nervous of unions, and would make all kinds of concessions to avoid having to negoatiate with unions. The German system of having trade union representatives on the secondary boards of all large companies is not one that Americans can actually comprehend. Real unions are interested in the welfare of the people they represent, and that includes making their jobs as productive as possible, in order to preserve them. You should know more about it than most US residents ... -- Bill Sloman, Sydney
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| From | Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-07-25 07:29 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <etp2u3Fbda1U1@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #470527 |
On 2017-07-25 03:33, bill.sloman@ieee.org wrote: > On Monday, July 24, 2017 at 7:01:21 PM UTC+2, Joerg wrote: >> On 2017-07-24 04:13, bill.sloman@ieee.org wrote: >>> On Friday, July 21, 2017 at 6:20:19 PM UTC+2, Joerg wrote: >>>> On 2017-07-20 19:07, Jim Thompson wrote: >>>>> OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue... >>>>> >>>>> <http://twitchy.com/brettt-3136/2017/07/20/community-colleges-looking-to-drop-algebra-as-a-requirement-sounds-a-little-anti-science/> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> >> >>>>> My jaw dropped when they did that. "Not enough kids can pass the test >>>> ... oh, let's just drop it then". >>>> >>>> Time for better schools, and certainly not the schools the >>>> unions want. >>> >>> Have you asked a union about that? >>> >> >> Not necessary. This says it all: >> >> http://calwatchdog.com/2012/10/22/new-law-dumbs-down-calif-math-performance/ >> >> >>> >> They'd love to see extra teachers hired to teach those classes more >>> intensively, and they'd be equally happy to see successful >>> teachers paid more for their capacity to get more kids to meet >>> the requirements. >>> >>> Unions are at least as much about getting better work conditions >>> and better productivity as they are about getting better pay for >>> the rank and file. They tend to be less interesed in getting >>> exceptional rewards for the exceptionally competent, mainly >>> because the exceptionally competent can usually do that for >>> themsselves. >>> >> >> They usually care very little about the kids being educated. It's >> mostly about union dues and turf protection. > > That's what US newspapers say about them. The US as a whole is > uniquely anti-union for an advanced industrial country. ... How many decades has it been since you read a US paper? Most are so leftist by now that I just cancelled our morning paper. IMO it took a real nosedive after the last election so I switched to the Wall Street Journal. > ... When I was > marginally involved with my trade union in the UK, one of the things > I did learn was that US-owned companies were pathologically nervous > of unions, and would make all kinds of concessions to avoid having to > negoatiate with unions. > Yeah, at the car mfgs they rolled over and played dead. That is why they are barely competitive anymore and had their lunch eaten by Asian and German mfgs. > The German system of having trade union representatives on the > secondary boards of all large companies is not one that Americans can > actually comprehend. > > Real unions are interested in the welfare of the people they > represent, ... Exactly, and nobody else. They are not interested in the kids. > ... and that includes making their jobs as productive as > possible, in order to preserve them. > It does not. Which is why charter schools are generally more successfully than union-controlled public one. This is also one of the reasons why the manufacturing base in the US has eroded and continues to do so. > You should know more about it than most US residents ... > I know enough about it. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/
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