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Groups > sci.electronics.design > #747955 > unrolled thread
| Started by | Lane W <cactus_DAC@yahoo.com> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2026-09-20 14:27 -0600 |
| Last post | 2026-09-23 02:17 +1000 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 108 — 19 participants |
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proposal Lane W <cactus_DAC@yahoo.com> - 2026-09-20 14:27 -0600
Re: proposal john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-09-20 13:49 -0700
Re: proposal Lasse Langwadt <llc@fonz.dk> - 2026-09-20 23:20 +0200
Re: proposal john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-09-20 14:35 -0700
Re: proposal Lasse Langwadt <llc@fonz.dk> - 2026-09-21 20:11 +0200
Re: proposal Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> - 2026-09-20 22:46 +0100
Re: proposal Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2026-09-20 14:56 -0700
Re: proposal Lane W <cactus_DAC@yahoo.com> - 2026-09-20 17:08 -0600
Re: proposal john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-09-20 19:11 -0700
Re: proposal Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2026-09-20 19:24 -0700
Re: proposal Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2026-09-20 19:36 -0700
Re: proposal Sergey Kubushyn <ksi@koi8.net> - 2026-09-21 03:27 +0000
Re: proposal Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2026-09-20 21:01 -0700
Re: proposal Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> - 2026-09-21 06:36 +0000
Re: proposal Sergey Kubushyn <ksi@koi8.net> - 2026-09-21 07:02 +0000
Re: proposal Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> - 2026-09-21 07:34 +0000
Re: proposal Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2026-09-21 01:26 -0700
Re: proposal Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-09-21 17:06 +1000
Re: proposal Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2026-09-20 14:57 -0700
Re: proposal sobriquet <dohduhdah@yahoo.com> - 2026-09-21 03:10 +0200
Re: proposal Lane W <cactus_DAC@yahoo.com> - 2026-09-20 20:38 -0600
Re: proposal Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> - 2026-09-21 06:45 +0000
Re: proposal john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-09-21 09:26 -0700
Re: proposal Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-09-22 00:36 +0800
Re: proposal john larkin <jl@htigct.com> - 2026-09-21 10:20 -0700
Re: proposal Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-09-22 16:30 +1000
Re: proposal Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-09-22 14:45 +0800
Re: proposal Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-09-22 17:17 +1000
Re: proposal john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-09-22 04:01 -0700
Re: proposal Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-09-23 00:21 +1000
Re: proposal sobriquet <dohduhdah@yahoo.com> - 2026-09-22 02:32 +0200
Re: proposal john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-09-21 19:03 -0700
Re: proposal sobriquet <dohduhdah@yahoo.com> - 2026-09-22 04:09 +0200
Re: proposal john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-09-21 20:23 -0700
Re: proposal sobriquet <dohduhdah@yahoo.com> - 2026-09-22 06:10 +0200
Re: proposal Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-09-22 16:57 +1000
Re: proposal john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-09-22 04:15 -0700
Re: proposal Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-09-23 00:38 +1000
Re: proposal john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-09-22 08:08 -0700
Re: proposal Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-09-23 01:49 +1000
Re: proposal Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-09-23 00:04 +0800
Re: proposal Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-09-24 18:27 +1000
Re: proposal Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-09-24 17:07 +0800
Re: proposal Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-09-25 01:41 +1000
Re: proposal Lane W <cactus_DAC@yahoo.com> - 2026-09-24 10:02 -0600
Re: proposal Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-09-25 04:00 +0800
Re: proposal Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-09-25 16:37 +1000
Re: proposal john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-09-22 04:04 -0700
Re: proposal sobriquet <dohduhdah@yahoo.com> - 2026-09-22 16:38 +0200
Re: proposal john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-09-22 08:22 -0700
Re: proposal Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-09-23 00:08 +0800
Re: proposal john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-09-22 09:36 -0700
Random noise generation (was: Re: proposal) Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-09-23 00:50 +0800
Re: Random noise generation (was: Re: proposal) john larkin <jl@htigct.com> - 2026-09-22 10:20 -0700
Re: Random noise generation Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-09-23 03:51 +1000
Re: Random noise generation Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-09-23 01:55 +0800
Re: Random noise generation john larkin <jl@htigct.com> - 2026-09-22 17:35 -0700
Re: Random noise generation Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2026-09-23 15:14 +0000
Re: Random noise generation john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-09-23 09:12 -0700
Re: Random noise generation Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-09-24 17:39 +0800
Re: Random noise generation Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-09-25 02:05 +1000
Re: Random noise generation Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-09-25 01:39 +0800
Re: Random noise generation john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-09-24 18:26 -0700
Re: Random noise generation Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-09-25 16:46 +1000
Re: Random noise generation john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-09-25 07:51 -0700
Re: Random noise generation Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-09-26 06:49 +0800
Re: Random noise generation john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-09-26 07:25 -0700
Re: Random noise generation ehsjr <ehsjr@verizon.net> - 2026-09-26 12:57 -0400
Re: Random noise generation Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-09-27 06:29 +0800
Re: Random noise generation john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-09-26 16:17 -0700
Re: Random noise generation Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> - 2026-09-27 08:25 +0000
Re: Random noise generation john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-09-27 03:10 -0700
Re: Random noise generation Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-09-26 15:48 +1000
Re: Random noise generation john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-09-26 08:34 -0700
Re: Random noise generation Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-09-27 15:45 +1000
Re: Random noise generation Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-09-26 15:48 +1000
Re: Random noise generation liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Liz Tuddenham) - 2026-09-25 09:22 +0100
Re: Random noise generation john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-09-25 07:56 -0700
Re: Random noise generation Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2026-09-25 15:36 +0000
Re: Random noise generation John R Walliker <jrwalliker@gmail.com> - 2026-09-25 16:59 +0100
Re: Random noise generation john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-09-26 08:42 -0700
Re: Random noise generation Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> - 2026-09-25 17:19 +0000
Re: Random noise generation Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-09-26 04:08 +0800
Re: Random noise generation Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> - 2026-09-26 09:08 +0000
Re: Random noise generation Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> - 2026-09-26 09:09 +0000
Re: Random noise generation Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-09-26 21:22 +1000
Re: Random noise generation john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-09-26 08:57 -0700
Re: Random noise generation john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-09-26 11:37 -0700
Re: Random noise generation Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> - 2026-09-27 08:25 +0000
Re: Random noise generation Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-09-27 20:47 +1000
Re: Random noise generation Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> - 2026-09-26 18:00 +0000
Re: Random noise generation john larkin <jl@htigct.com> - 2026-09-25 17:09 -0700
Re: Random noise generation liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Liz Tuddenham) - 2026-09-25 22:12 +0100
Re: Random noise generation Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> - 2026-09-26 10:14 +0200
Re: Random noise generation liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Liz Tuddenham) - 2026-09-26 14:37 +0100
Re: Random noise generation Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> - 2026-09-26 23:09 +0200
Re: Random noise generation liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Liz Tuddenham) - 2026-09-27 09:15 +0100
Re: Random noise generation john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-09-26 09:01 -0700
Re: Random noise generation liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Liz Tuddenham) - 2026-09-26 19:45 +0100
Re: Random noise generation Gerhard Hoffmann <dk4xp@arcor.de> - 2026-10-03 13:34 +0200
Re: Random noise generation Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> - 2026-10-03 16:03 +0200
Re: Random noise generation john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-10-03 08:42 -0700
Re: Random noise generation brian <nospam@b-howie.co.uk> - 2026-10-06 05:39 +0100
Re: proposal Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-09-23 01:01 +1000
Re: proposal someone <2a59d59e3809f827ce709d3815e3950eef4a6a93af5557a93a7fdfba71460843@example.com> - 2026-09-21 21:00 +0000
Re: proposal Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-09-22 17:10 +1000
Re: proposal john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-09-22 04:21 -0700
Re: proposal Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-09-23 02:17 +1000
Page 5 of 6 — ← Prev page 1 2 3 4 [5] 6 Next page →
| From | john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-09-26 08:42 -0700 |
| Subject | Re: Random noise generation |
| Message-ID | <9ipfblpinm47ik4s2pha1a16al97mhq77r@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #748196 |
On Fri, 25 Sep 2026 16:59:02 +0100, John R Walliker <jrwalliker@gmail.com> wrote: >On 25/09/2026 16:36, Phil Hobbs wrote: >> john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote: >>> On Fri, 25 Sep 2026 09:22:46 +0100, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid >>> (Liz Tuddenham) wrote: >>> >>>> john larkin <jl@htigct.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2026 01:55:36 +0800, Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson >>>>> <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> On 9/23/2026 1:20 AM, john larkin wrote: >>>>>>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2026 00:50:15 +0800, Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson >>>>>>> <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 9/23/2026 12:36 AM, john larkin wrote: >>>>>>>>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2026 00:08:28 +0800, Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson >>>>>>>>> <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> [snip] >>>>>>>>>> Do you make any cryptographically secure random number generators? I >>>>>>>>>> have a personal interest in Fortuna, but am not willing to buy a product >>>>>>>>>> that claims to make cryptographically secure random numbers, and does >>>>>>>>>> not. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> No. A really good random number generator would start with a >>>>>>>>> physics-based source, probably Johnson noise, and scramble that. We >>>>>>>>> just want to simulate random vibration and jitter. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Fair enough. For cryptographical purposes, people need to be aware of >>>>>>>> /three letter agencies/ subverting physics based sources. This has been >>>>>>>> mentioned in books by Schneier, so I presume you know all about it, and >>>>>>>> I won't have to expand further on the subject. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> No, I didn't know. How can one subvert Johnson or zener noise? One >>>>>>> could easily have a dozen of them and scramble hard. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Some people don't want to go off-chip, so use a bunch of bad ring >>>>>>>>> oscillators. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I believe I have somewhere an external noise generator. Forgive me if >>>>>>>> I don't recall exactly what, as that project has been dormant for some >>>>>>>> time. It's a ready made /click/ for my PIC32 development board, if I >>>>>>>> recall correctly. So please don't consider myself as one of those peo- >>>>>>>> ple. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Have you ever experimented with audio input as a physics based source? >>>>>>>> I believe you won't even need a microphone, as you should be able to >>>>>>>> just plug a wire in the mini-jack audio receptor, and use that like an >>>>>>>> antenna. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> That could have bad statistics. A real random signal should have no >>>>>>> statistics! >>>>>> >>>>>> I don't think you can get a /real random signal/ with a physical input >>>>>> of some kind. And to adjust for the bad statistics -- for now, let's >>>>>> just assume so -- you can fix that on the software end. >>>>>> >>>>>> Read every /word/ from the ADC [1], and keep only the least significant >>>>>> bit, discard the rest. After thirty two words from the ADC you have a >>>>>> single integer for the digital random number generator. >>>>>> >>>>>> Of course, that might not be good enough, nor fast enough, for the app- >>>>>> lication, and you can mix that into a more complex R.N.G. with a /linear >>>>>> feedback shift register/ -- if I recall my nomenclature correctly -- or >>>>>> at the deep end of the pool, Fortuna. >>>>> >>>>> I'd have a number of channels. Each a zener diode, amplifier, highpass >>>>> filter, and a comparator. Feed the comparators into an FPGA and >>>>> scramble them digitally. >>>>> >>>>> A zener will make ballpark 300 nV/rthz of pretty white noise. That's >>>>> easier to process than resistor Johnson noise. >>>> >>>> If you look at the output from a zener diode on an oscilloscope, it >>>> appears to made up of jumps between discrete levels; although it may be >>>> time-random it isn't voltage-random. >>> >>> I posted some notes on that. I found different behavior in different >>> current zones. >>> >>>> >>>> For a rough-and-ready audio noise generator, I used the noise of the >>>> blue LED pilot light and amplified it with a quad op-amp. i also >>>> included a state-variable filter so you could select: >>>> >>>> Full bandwidth >>>> High pass >>>> Low pass >>>> Narrow peak >>>> Narrow notch >>> >>> Was the led forward biased? What was its noise amplitude? >>> >>> The nice thing about zener noise is that it's big, so swamps amplifier >>> noise, like 1/f. >> >> It’s also highly asymmetrical and often has a peaky spectrum, especially at >> lower currents iirc. >> >> Folk have tried fixing the symmetry by putting two in series and coming out >> the midpoint. That makes it better, but to get decent (not cryptographic >> quality) noise, AIUI you have to run the zeners at fairly high bias and >> filter the output. >> >> Cheers >> >> Phil Hobbs >> > >XORing the outputs of two or more mediocre uncorrelated >noise generators vastly improves the final result. >John Better yet, xor them into the insides of some long pseudo-random shift registers to make random giant state jumps. One little FPGA could make hundreds of long LSFRs. Mush a dozen zeners into them. It woud bankrupt the CIA trying to break that. I was thinking that a cheap FPGA could generate crypto-quality random numbers with no external parts. An RP2040 could too. John Larkin Highland Tech Glen Canyon Design Center Lunatic Fringe Electronics
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| From | Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-09-25 17:19 +0000 |
| Subject | Re: Random noise generation |
| Message-ID | <1196aej$3po1j$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #748194 |
>Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net>wrote: >>john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote: >> On Fri, 25 Sep 2026 09:22:46 +0100, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid >> (Liz Tuddenham) wrote: >> >>> john larkin <jl@htigct.com> wrote: >>> >>>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2026 01:55:36 +0800, Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson >>>> <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> wrote: >>>> >>>>> On 9/23/2026 1:20 AM, john larkin wrote: >>>>>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2026 00:50:15 +0800, Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson >>>>>> <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> On 9/23/2026 12:36 AM, john larkin wrote: >>>>>>>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2026 00:08:28 +0800, Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson >>>>>>>> <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> [snip] >>>>>>>>> Do you make any cryptographically secure random number generators? I >>>>>>>>> have a personal interest in Fortuna, but am not willing to buy a product >>>>>>>>> that claims to make cryptographically secure random numbers, and does >>>>>>>>> not. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> No. A really good random number generator would start with a >>>>>>>> physics-based source, probably Johnson noise, and scramble that. We >>>>>>>> just want to simulate random vibration and jitter. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Fair enough. For cryptographical purposes, people need to be aware of >>>>>>> /three letter agencies/ subverting physics based sources. This has been >>>>>>> mentioned in books by Schneier, so I presume you know all about it, and >>>>>>> I won't have to expand further on the subject. >>>>>> >>>>>> No, I didn't know. How can one subvert Johnson or zener noise? One >>>>>> could easily have a dozen of them and scramble hard. >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Some people don't want to go off-chip, so use a bunch of bad ring >>>>>>>> oscillators. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I believe I have somewhere an external noise generator. Forgive me if >>>>>>> I don't recall exactly what, as that project has been dormant for some >>>>>>> time. It's a ready made /click/ for my PIC32 development board, if I >>>>>>> recall correctly. So please don't consider myself as one of those peo- >>>>>>> ple. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Have you ever experimented with audio input as a physics based source? >>>>>>> I believe you won't even need a microphone, as you should be able to >>>>>>> just plug a wire in the mini-jack audio receptor, and use that like an >>>>>>> antenna. >>>>>> >>>>>> That could have bad statistics. A real random signal should have no >>>>>> statistics! >>>>> >>>>> I don't think you can get a /real random signal/ with a physical input >>>>> of some kind. And to adjust for the bad statistics -- for now, let's >>>>> just assume so -- you can fix that on the software end. >>>>> >>>>> Read every /word/ from the ADC [1], and keep only the least significant >>>>> bit, discard the rest. After thirty two words from the ADC you have a >>>>> single integer for the digital random number generator. >>>>> >>>>> Of course, that might not be good enough, nor fast enough, for the app- >>>>> lication, and you can mix that into a more complex R.N.G. with a /linear >>>>> feedback shift register/ -- if I recall my nomenclature correctly -- or >>>>> at the deep end of the pool, Fortuna. >>>> >>>> I'd have a number of channels. Each a zener diode, amplifier, highpass >>>> filter, and a comparator. Feed the comparators into an FPGA and >>>> scramble them digitally. >>>> >>>> A zener will make ballpark 300 nV/rthz of pretty white noise. That's >>>> easier to process than resistor Johnson noise. >>> >>> If you look at the output from a zener diode on an oscilloscope, it >>> appears to made up of jumps between discrete levels; although it may be >>> time-random it isn't voltage-random. >> >> I posted some notes on that. I found different behavior in different >> current zones. >> >>> >>> For a rough-and-ready audio noise generator, I used the noise of the >>> blue LED pilot light and amplified it with a quad op-amp. i also >>> included a state-variable filter so you could select: >>> >>> Full bandwidth >>> High pass >>> Low pass >>> Narrow peak >>> Narrow notch >> >> Was the led forward biased? What was its noise amplitude? >> >> The nice thing about zener noise is that it's big, so swamps amplifier >> noise, like 1/f. > >It’s also highly asymmetrical and often has a peaky spectrum, especially at >lower currents iirc. > >Folk have tried fixing the symmetry by putting two in series and coming out >the midpoint. That makes it better, but to get decent (not cryptographic >quality) noise, AIUI you have to run the zeners at fairly high bias and >filter the output. > >Cheers > >Phil Hobbs I just had an idea foe a random noise generator. Using a PMT or other radiation detector you need 3 tics only, this gives you 2 time spaces say t1 and t2 tick1 t1 tick2 t2 tick3 Now write the ratio t2 / t1 as your random number. As pr2cise as you can measure time, say nano seconds It is the old alien crypto secret (from sci.crypt decennia ago) Alien comes to earth and wants to keep all he learned here back with him in his small flying saucer. Has a weight and size problem fitting it all in. So gets the encyclopedia Britannica and writes it out as ASCII numbers does 1 / that number, He then takes a tick and sets a marker on his stick where the ratio is. Then takes the stick with him. What I am saying is: All you need to encode and then later decode is 3 points in time. The ratio of those areas / times formed by those 3 points tells you everything. That is why I can hear from ticks by somebody on the table what his brain is thinking. Same for the the sounds in speech. But from the 3 radiation pulses not much _human knowledge_ is transferred, as such 'random'. Simple. xor you data with that number Or you can xor you data with Pi (the 3. something number) do not tell anyone.
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-09-26 04:08 +0800 |
| Subject | Re: Random noise generation |
| Message-ID | <nnd$2e047d73$13149011@51f0966eff7a7349> |
| In reply to | #748199 |
On 9/26/2026 1:19 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote: >> Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net>wrote: >>> john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote: >>> On Fri, 25 Sep 2026 09:22:46 +0100, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid >>> (Liz Tuddenham) wrote: >>> >>>> john larkin <jl@htigct.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2026 01:55:36 +0800, Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson >>>>> <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> On 9/23/2026 1:20 AM, john larkin wrote: >>>>>>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2026 00:50:15 +0800, Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson >>>>>>> <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 9/23/2026 12:36 AM, john larkin wrote: >>>>>>>>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2026 00:08:28 +0800, Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson >>>>>>>>> <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> [snip] >>>>>>>>>> Do you make any cryptographically secure random number generators? I >>>>>>>>>> have a personal interest in Fortuna, but am not willing to buy a product >>>>>>>>>> that claims to make cryptographically secure random numbers, and does >>>>>>>>>> not. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> No. A really good random number generator would start with a >>>>>>>>> physics-based source, probably Johnson noise, and scramble that. We >>>>>>>>> just want to simulate random vibration and jitter. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Fair enough. For cryptographical purposes, people need to be aware of >>>>>>>> /three letter agencies/ subverting physics based sources. This has been >>>>>>>> mentioned in books by Schneier, so I presume you know all about it, and >>>>>>>> I won't have to expand further on the subject. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> No, I didn't know. How can one subvert Johnson or zener noise? One >>>>>>> could easily have a dozen of them and scramble hard. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Some people don't want to go off-chip, so use a bunch of bad ring >>>>>>>>> oscillators. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I believe I have somewhere an external noise generator. Forgive me if >>>>>>>> I don't recall exactly what, as that project has been dormant for some >>>>>>>> time. It's a ready made /click/ for my PIC32 development board, if I >>>>>>>> recall correctly. So please don't consider myself as one of those peo- >>>>>>>> ple. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Have you ever experimented with audio input as a physics based source? >>>>>>>> I believe you won't even need a microphone, as you should be able to >>>>>>>> just plug a wire in the mini-jack audio receptor, and use that like an >>>>>>>> antenna. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> That could have bad statistics. A real random signal should have no >>>>>>> statistics! >>>>>> >>>>>> I don't think you can get a /real random signal/ with a physical input >>>>>> of some kind. And to adjust for the bad statistics -- for now, let's >>>>>> just assume so -- you can fix that on the software end. >>>>>> >>>>>> Read every /word/ from the ADC [1], and keep only the least significant >>>>>> bit, discard the rest. After thirty two words from the ADC you have a >>>>>> single integer for the digital random number generator. >>>>>> >>>>>> Of course, that might not be good enough, nor fast enough, for the app- >>>>>> lication, and you can mix that into a more complex R.N.G. with a /linear >>>>>> feedback shift register/ -- if I recall my nomenclature correctly -- or >>>>>> at the deep end of the pool, Fortuna. >>>>> >>>>> I'd have a number of channels. Each a zener diode, amplifier, highpass >>>>> filter, and a comparator. Feed the comparators into an FPGA and >>>>> scramble them digitally. >>>>> >>>>> A zener will make ballpark 300 nV/rthz of pretty white noise. That's >>>>> easier to process than resistor Johnson noise. >>>> >>>> If you look at the output from a zener diode on an oscilloscope, it >>>> appears to made up of jumps between discrete levels; although it may be >>>> time-random it isn't voltage-random. >>> >>> I posted some notes on that. I found different behavior in different >>> current zones. >>> >>>> >>>> For a rough-and-ready audio noise generator, I used the noise of the >>>> blue LED pilot light and amplified it with a quad op-amp. i also >>>> included a state-variable filter so you could select: >>>> >>>> Full bandwidth >>>> High pass >>>> Low pass >>>> Narrow peak >>>> Narrow notch >>> >>> Was the led forward biased? What was its noise amplitude? >>> >>> The nice thing about zener noise is that it's big, so swamps amplifier >>> noise, like 1/f. >> >> It’s also highly asymmetrical and often has a peaky spectrum, especially at >> lower currents iirc. >> >> Folk have tried fixing the symmetry by putting two in series and coming out >> the midpoint. That makes it better, but to get decent (not cryptographic >> quality) noise, AIUI you have to run the zeners at fairly high bias and >> filter the output. >> >> Cheers >> >> Phil Hobbs > > I just had an idea foe a random noise generator. > Using a PMT or other radiation detector you need 3 tics only, > this gives you 2 time spaces say t1 and t2 > > tick1 t1 tick2 t2 tick3 > > Now write the ratio t2 / t1 as your random number. > > As pr2cise as you can measure time, say nano seconds > > It is the old alien crypto secret (from sci.crypt decennia ago) > Alien comes to earth and wants to keep all he learned here back with him in > his small flying saucer. > Has a weight and size problem fitting it all in. > > So gets the encyclopedia Britannica and writes it out as ASCII numbers > does 1 / that number, > He then takes a tick and sets a marker on his stick where the ratio is. > Then takes the stick with him. > > What I am saying is: > All you need to encode and then later decode is 3 points in time. > The ratio of those areas / times formed by those 3 points tells you everything. > That is why I can hear from ticks by somebody on the table what his brain is > thinking. > Same for the the sounds in speech. > > But from the 3 radiation pulses not much _human knowledge_ is transferred, > as such 'random'. > > Simple. > xor you data with that number > > Or you can xor you data with Pi (the 3. something number) > do not tell anyone. Dear Jan, Are you talking about creating random noise via Geiger [1] counters? Now I don't recall if this was something I read, or thought up inde- pendently, so please assume this is part of the random noise literature. One idea is to take the audio input [as output from the counter] and sample at fixed intervals. By pointing the detector at something radio- active, your nearest coal mine comes to mind, you should get a fairly decent random sample of noise vs. silence. I have decided to cross post to sci.energy.atomic, and hope the nearest three letter agency can fill us in on the details of this operation. I'm sure there are other ways to take standardized Geiger counters, and apply their use for random noise generation. What do you think? [1] Not to be confused with H.R. Giger. -- Johann | email: invalid -> com | http://www.myrkraverk.com/blog/ I'm not from the Internet, I just work there. | via XS News https://bsky.app/profile/myrkraverk.bsky.social | for ( ;; ) _:; Federated at https://fed.brid.gy/bsky/myrkraverk.bsky.social
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| From | Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-09-26 09:08 +0000 |
| Subject | Re: Random noise generation |
| Message-ID | <119821o$bd9a$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #748204 |
>Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid>wrote: >>On 9/26/2026 1:19 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote: >> >> I just had an idea foe a random noise generator. >> Using a PMT or other radiation detector you need 3 tics only, >> this gives you 2 time spaces say t1 and t2 >> >> tick1 t1 tick2 t2 tick3 >> >> Now write the ratio t2 / t1 as your random number. >> >> As pr2cise as you can measure time, say nano seconds >> >> It is the old alien crypto secret (from sci.crypt decennia ago) >> Alien comes to earth and wants to keep all he learned here back with him in >> his small flying saucer. >> Has a weight and size problem fitting it all in. >> >> So gets the encyclopedia Britannica and writes it out as ASCII numbers >> does 1 / that number, >> He then takes a tick and sets a marker on his stick where the ratio is. >> Then takes the stick with him. >> >> What I am saying is: >> All you need to encode and then later decode is 3 points in time. >> The ratio of those areas / times formed by those 3 points tells you everything. >> That is why I can hear from ticks by somebody on the table what his brain is >> thinking. >> Same for the the sounds in speech. >> >> But from the 3 radiation pulses not much _human knowledge_ is transferred, >> as such 'random'. >> >> Simple. >> xor you data with that number >> >> Or you can xor you data with Pi (the 3. something number) >> do not tell anyone. > >Dear Jan, > >Are you talking about creating random noise via Geiger [1] counters? >Now I don't recall if this was something I read, or thought up inde- >pendently, so please assume this is part of the random noise literature. > >One idea is to take the audio input [as output from the counter] and >sample at fixed intervals. By pointing the detector at something radio- >active, your nearest coal mine comes to mind, you should get a fairly >decent random sample of noise vs. silence. > >I have decided to cross post to sci.energy.atomic, and hope the nearest >three letter agency can fill us in on the details of this operation. > > >I'm sure there are other ways to take standardized Geiger counters, and >apply their use for random noise generation. What do you think? > >[1] Not to be confused with H.R. Giger. >-- >Johann | email: invalid -> com | http://www.myrkraverk.com/blog/ >I'm not from the Internet, I just work there. | via XS News >https://bsky.app/profile/myrkraverk.bsky.social | for ( ;; ) _:; >Federated at https://fed.brid.gy/bsky/myrkraverk.bsky.social I have a Geiger radiation counter running 24/7 here every minute the radiation (as number of 'ticks' per minute) is logged to a Raspberry Pi computer. When I moved house the average level (ticks per minute) went up! https://panteltje.nl/pub/background_radiation_from_one_place_to_the_other.gif the horizontal scale is minutes, the vertical scale ticks per minute. That graph starts in about early 2020, ends when I took the screenshot in early 2021, just to show the effect of moving to an other location. To see WHAT radiates I also have a gamma spectrometer (bit bigger). https://panteltje.nl/pub/gamma_spectrometer_plus_probe_plus_geiger_counter_2_IMG_4185.JPG You can buy those on ebay too. This is an other (to keep electronic design happy) radiation counter: https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/pic/gm_pic2/ It logs GPS position and radiation to a SDcard. Could be used for prospecting or fleeing to a better / safer place once the nukes fall. The gamma spectrometer will show you WHAT radiates so you can make better decisions when the Geiger counter screams.. All battery powered as likely no power when the trump war house maniac starts throwing nukes in frustration if his polls drop to zero. (US politics cross posting required?) Anyways, there is a radiation group too: https://groups.io/g/GammaSpectroscopy But to make it simple I said that you only need 3 ticks, divide the 2 times it shows and use that as you random number: number = T2 / T1 8.21334872342353029492305305242095235 Every one should have a radiation counter these days, so simple. We had, in Europe, the Chernobyl disaster. The place where I worked in the Netherlands (far far far away from that reactor) had the airco filters replaced as those were 'hot'. 'Do not eat stuff from your garden" was the warning. mm breathing the air all day long outside??? That was long ago, am almost 80 now, maybe radiation is NOT that dangerous, but fear sells? Wildlife flourishes in Chernobyl, mainly because there are no humans there now to kill it. LOL I have worked with radiation at work too, was very afraid, left, later camw back in an other facility there. that place got completely polluted with radiation 2 years after I left there, they were careless. And now? Build you own nuclear reactor? Is probably illegal. Fusion power will never work anyway!!! How stupid can they get? Einstone babblers. Getting carried away here a bit. But it must be pointed out! So..
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| From | Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-09-26 09:09 +0000 |
| Subject | Re: Random noise generation |
| Message-ID | <1198258$beb2$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #748204 |
>Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid>wrote: >>On 9/26/2026 1:19 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote: >> >> I just had an idea foe a random noise generator. >> Using a PMT or other radiation detector you need 3 tics only, >> this gives you 2 time spaces say t1 and t2 >> >> tick1 t1 tick2 t2 tick3 >> >> Now write the ratio t2 / t1 as your random number. >> >> As pr2cise as you can measure time, say nano seconds >> >> It is the old alien crypto secret (from sci.crypt decennia ago) >> Alien comes to earth and wants to keep all he learned here back with him in >> his small flying saucer. >> Has a weight and size problem fitting it all in. >> >> So gets the encyclopedia Britannica and writes it out as ASCII numbers >> does 1 / that number, >> He then takes a tick and sets a marker on his stick where the ratio is. >> Then takes the stick with him. >> >> What I am saying is: >> All you need to encode and then later decode is 3 points in time. >> The ratio of those areas / times formed by those 3 points tells you everything. >> That is why I can hear from ticks by somebody on the table what his brain is >> thinking. >> Same for the the sounds in speech. >> >> But from the 3 radiation pulses not much _human knowledge_ is transferred, >> as such 'random'. >> >> Simple. >> xor you data with that number >> >> Or you can xor you data with Pi (the 3. something number) >> do not tell anyone. > >Dear Jan, > >Are you talking about creating random noise via Geiger [1] counters? >Now I don't recall if this was something I read, or thought up inde- >pendently, so please assume this is part of the random noise literature. > >One idea is to take the audio input [as output from the counter] and >sample at fixed intervals. By pointing the detector at something radio- >active, your nearest coal mine comes to mind, you should get a fairly >decent random sample of noise vs. silence. > >I have decided to cross post to sci.energy.atomic, and hope the nearest >three letter agency can fill us in on the details of this operation. > > >I'm sure there are other ways to take standardized Geiger counters, and >apply their use for random noise generation. What do you think? > >[1] Not to be confused with H.R. Giger. I have a Geiger radiation counter running 24/7 here every minute the radiation (as number of 'ticks' per minute) is logged to a Raspberry Pi computer. When I moved house the average level (ticks per minute) went up! https://panteltje.nl/pub/background_radiation_from_one_place_to_the_other.gif the horizontal scale is minutes, the vertical scale ticks per minute. That graph starts in about early 2020, ends when I took the screenshot in early 2021, just to show the effect of moving to an other location. To see WHAT radiates I also have a gamma spectrometer (bit bigger). https://panteltje.nl/pub/gamma_spectrometer_plus_probe_plus_geiger_counter_2_IMG_4185.JPG You can buy those on ebay too. This is an other (to keep electronic design happy) radiation counter: https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/pic/gm_pic2/ It logs GPS position and radiation to a SDcard. Could be used for prospecting or fleeing to a better / safer place once the nukes fall. The gamma spectrometer will show you WHAT radiates so you can make better decisions when the Geiger counter screams.. All battery powered as likely no power when the trump war house maniac starts throwing nukes in frustration if his polls drop to zero. (US politics cross posting required?) Anyways, there is a radiation group too: https://groups.io/g/GammaSpectroscopy But to make it simple I said that you only need 3 ticks, divide the 2 times it shows and use that as you random number: number = T2 / T1 8.21334872342353029492305305242095235 Every one should have a radiation counter these days, so simple. We had, in Europe, the Chernobyl disaster. The place where I worked in the Netherlands (far far far away from that reactor) had the airco filters replaced as those were 'hot'. 'Do not eat stuff from your garden" was the warning. mm breathing the air all day long outside??? That was long ago, am almost 80 now, maybe radiation is NOT that dangerous, but fear sells? Wildlife flourishes in Chernobyl, mainly because there are no humans there now to kill it. LOL I have worked with radiation at work too, was very afraid, left, later camw back in an other facility there. that place got completely polluted with radiation 2 years after I left there, they were careless. And now? Build you own nuclear reactor? Is probably illegal. Fusion power will never work anyway!!! How stupid can they get? Einstone babblers. Getting carried away here a bit. But it must be pointed out! So..
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| From | Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-09-26 21:22 +1000 |
| Subject | Re: Random noise generation |
| Message-ID | <11989tr$dpll$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #748222 |
On 26/09/2026 7:09 pm, Jan Panteltje wrote: >> Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid>wrote: >>> On 9/26/2026 1:19 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote: <snip> > Fusion power will never work anyway!!! It has been working for us for the last few billion years. The sun is fusion reactor, fusing hydrogen into heavier elements. It mostly runs on proton-fusion at the moment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proton%E2%80%93proton_chain eventually producing He-4. > How stupid can they get? Einstone babblers. > Getting carried away here a bit. > But it must be pointed out! > > So.. Jan Panteltje may not be stupid, but he isn't all that well-informed. -- Bill Sloman, Sydney
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| From | john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-09-26 08:57 -0700 |
| Subject | Re: Random noise generation |
| Message-ID | <4cqfblpp96pbh7vtnvoilardlu2e75ccqm@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #748222 |
On Sat, 26 Sep 2026 09:09:58 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> wrote: >Build you own nuclear reactor? >Is probably illegal. >Fusion power will never work anyway!!! There are two or three very-well-funded fusion energy startups now, that plan to use bar lasers to compress hydrogen pellets to fusion at maybe 10 Hz. Inertia, a spinoff of NIF, is one. NIF has achieved over unity light-to-energy fusion, but they use flashtubes which are very inefficient at pumping their lasers. So their wall-plug efficiency is awful, and their shot rate is maybe 1/day. John Larkin Highland Tech Glen Canyon Design Center Lunatic Fringe Electronics
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| From | john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-09-26 11:37 -0700 |
| Subject | Re: Random noise generation |
| Message-ID | <vt3gblp7i7tpe3iprcg9hf7s1prgserc74@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #748247 |
On Sat, 26 Sep 2026 18:00:33 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> wrote: >>john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com>wrote: >>>On Sat, 26 Sep 2026 09:09:58 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>wrote: >> >>>Build you own nuclear reactor? >>>Is probably illegal. >>>Fusion power will never work anyway!!! >> >>There are two or three very-well-funded fusion energy startups now, >>that plan to use bar lasers to compress hydrogen pellets to fusion at >>maybe 10 Hz. Inertia, a spinoff of NIF, is one. >> >>NIF has achieved over unity light-to-energy fusion, but they use >>flashtubes which are very inefficient at pumping their lasers. So >>their wall-plug efficiency is awful, and their shot rate is maybe >>1/day. > >You can NEVER get more energy out of a spring than you put in compressing it! In real life, sure you can. Like a hydrogen bomb. Or a diesel engine. > >No matter what divide by zero mamaticians and einstone say. > >It is a job creation program for their parrots >Ever new company startups looking for yet an other clueless investor. >Governments pouring money in it too (ITER) Some people think a chance in a hundred is a good investment if the payout might be 10,000 : 1. > >A chain reaction is like a spring hold together by some small clamp >hit it end it will remove the clamp and it will jump, >every now and then a clamp fails all by itself... >now put enough of those clamped springs together and hit it or wait a little >till the first clamp fails, that triggers a chain of expanding springs involving all . > >What they call 'fusion' is trying to compress the springs again not even clamping those. John Larkin Highland Tech Glen Canyon Design Center Lunatic Fringe Electronics
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| From | Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-09-27 08:25 +0000 |
| Subject | Re: Random noise generation |
| Message-ID | <119ajt8$15sdk$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #748250 |
>john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com>wrote: >>On Sat, 26 Sep 2026 18:00:33 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >wrote: >>You can NEVER get more energy out of a spring than you put in compressing it! > >In real life, sure you can. Like a hydrogen bomb. Or a diesel engine. No way!
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| From | Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-09-27 20:47 +1000 |
| Subject | Re: Random noise generation |
| Message-ID | <119as87$18d97$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #748265 |
On 27/09/2026 6:25 pm, Jan Panteltje wrote: >> john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com>wrote: >>> On Sat, 26 Sep 2026 18:00:33 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >> wrote: >>> You can NEVER get more energy out of a spring than you put in compressing it! >> >> In real life, sure you can. Like a hydrogen bomb. Or a diesel engine. > > No way! Springs don't release more power than you put into compressing them. Hydrogen fusion is compressing four hydrogen nuclei (H-1) hard enough that they transform into He-4, which does releases more power than you put into comnpressing the hydrogen hard enough to make it happen. Albert Einstein did formalise the mass-energy equivalance in e=m.c^2 Where e is energy m is mass and c is the speed of light in a vacuum. Chose your own system of units to keep the dimensions right. Jan Panteltje is too dim to follow Einstein's reasoning and finds it easier to think that he was wrong. -- Bill Sloman, Sydney
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| From | Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-09-26 18:00 +0000 |
| Subject | Re: Random noise generation |
| Message-ID | <1199182$mq4l$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #748247 |
>john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com>wrote: >>On Sat, 26 Sep 2026 09:09:58 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >wrote: > >>Build you own nuclear reactor? >>Is probably illegal. >>Fusion power will never work anyway!!! > >There are two or three very-well-funded fusion energy startups now, >that plan to use bar lasers to compress hydrogen pellets to fusion at >maybe 10 Hz. Inertia, a spinoff of NIF, is one. > >NIF has achieved over unity light-to-energy fusion, but they use >flashtubes which are very inefficient at pumping their lasers. So >their wall-plug efficiency is awful, and their shot rate is maybe >1/day. You can NEVER get more energy out of a spring than you put in compressing it! No matter what divide by zero mamaticians and einstone say. It is a job creation program for their parrots Ever new company startups looking for yet an other clueless investor. Governments pouring money in it too (ITER) A chain reaction is like a spring hold together by some small clamp hit it end it will remove the clamp and it will jump, every now and then a clamp fails all by itself... now put enough of those clamped springs together and hit it or wait a little till the first clamp fails, that triggers a chain of expanding springs involving all . What they call 'fusion' is trying to compress the springs again not even clamping those.
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| From | john larkin <jl@htigct.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-09-25 17:09 -0700 |
| Subject | Re: Random noise generation |
| Message-ID | <n73ebl587e6op8nhj02povtbn0fu3l0mcv@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #748194 |
On Fri, 25 Sep 2026 15:36:56 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote: >john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote: >> On Fri, 25 Sep 2026 09:22:46 +0100, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid >> (Liz Tuddenham) wrote: >> >>> john larkin <jl@htigct.com> wrote: >>> >>>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2026 01:55:36 +0800, Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson >>>> <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> wrote: >>>> >>>>> On 9/23/2026 1:20 AM, john larkin wrote: >>>>>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2026 00:50:15 +0800, Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson >>>>>> <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> On 9/23/2026 12:36 AM, john larkin wrote: >>>>>>>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2026 00:08:28 +0800, Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson >>>>>>>> <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> [snip] >>>>>>>>> Do you make any cryptographically secure random number generators? I >>>>>>>>> have a personal interest in Fortuna, but am not willing to buy a product >>>>>>>>> that claims to make cryptographically secure random numbers, and does >>>>>>>>> not. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> No. A really good random number generator would start with a >>>>>>>> physics-based source, probably Johnson noise, and scramble that. We >>>>>>>> just want to simulate random vibration and jitter. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Fair enough. For cryptographical purposes, people need to be aware of >>>>>>> /three letter agencies/ subverting physics based sources. This has been >>>>>>> mentioned in books by Schneier, so I presume you know all about it, and >>>>>>> I won't have to expand further on the subject. >>>>>> >>>>>> No, I didn't know. How can one subvert Johnson or zener noise? One >>>>>> could easily have a dozen of them and scramble hard. >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Some people don't want to go off-chip, so use a bunch of bad ring >>>>>>>> oscillators. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I believe I have somewhere an external noise generator. Forgive me if >>>>>>> I don't recall exactly what, as that project has been dormant for some >>>>>>> time. It's a ready made /click/ for my PIC32 development board, if I >>>>>>> recall correctly. So please don't consider myself as one of those peo- >>>>>>> ple. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Have you ever experimented with audio input as a physics based source? >>>>>>> I believe you won't even need a microphone, as you should be able to >>>>>>> just plug a wire in the mini-jack audio receptor, and use that like an >>>>>>> antenna. >>>>>> >>>>>> That could have bad statistics. A real random signal should have no >>>>>> statistics! >>>>> >>>>> I don't think you can get a /real random signal/ with a physical input >>>>> of some kind. And to adjust for the bad statistics -- for now, let's >>>>> just assume so -- you can fix that on the software end. >>>>> >>>>> Read every /word/ from the ADC [1], and keep only the least significant >>>>> bit, discard the rest. After thirty two words from the ADC you have a >>>>> single integer for the digital random number generator. >>>>> >>>>> Of course, that might not be good enough, nor fast enough, for the app- >>>>> lication, and you can mix that into a more complex R.N.G. with a /linear >>>>> feedback shift register/ -- if I recall my nomenclature correctly -- or >>>>> at the deep end of the pool, Fortuna. >>>> >>>> I'd have a number of channels. Each a zener diode, amplifier, highpass >>>> filter, and a comparator. Feed the comparators into an FPGA and >>>> scramble them digitally. >>>> >>>> A zener will make ballpark 300 nV/rthz of pretty white noise. That's >>>> easier to process than resistor Johnson noise. >>> >>> If you look at the output from a zener diode on an oscilloscope, it >>> appears to made up of jumps between discrete levels; although it may be >>> time-random it isn't voltage-random. >> >> I posted some notes on that. I found different behavior in different >> current zones. >> >>> >>> For a rough-and-ready audio noise generator, I used the noise of the >>> blue LED pilot light and amplified it with a quad op-amp. i also >>> included a state-variable filter so you could select: >>> >>> Full bandwidth >>> High pass >>> Low pass >>> Narrow peak >>> Narrow notch >> >> Was the led forward biased? What was its noise amplitude? >> >> The nice thing about zener noise is that it's big, so swamps amplifier >> noise, like 1/f. > >It’s also highly asymmetrical and often has a peaky spectrum, especially at >lower currents iirc. > >Folk have tried fixing the symmetry by putting two in series and coming out >the midpoint. That makes it better, but to get decent (not cryptographic >quality) noise, AIUI you have to run the zeners at fairly high bias and >filter the output. > >Cheers > >Phil Hobbs People sell noise diodes, zeners with guaranteed spectral behavior.
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| From | liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Liz Tuddenham) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-09-25 22:12 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: Random noise generation |
| Message-ID | <1s20ih4.9s3ibycd8ilkN%liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid> |
| In reply to | #748191 |
john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote: > On Fri, 25 Sep 2026 09:22:46 +0100, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid > (Liz Tuddenham) wrote: [...] > >For a rough-and-ready audio noise generator, I used the noise of the > >blue LED pilot light and amplified it with a quad op-amp. i also > >included a state-variable filter so you could select: > > > >Full bandwidth > >High pass > >Low pass > >Narrow peak > >Narrow notch > > Was the led forward biased? Yes, it was used as the pilot light. >What was its noise amplitude? The total voltage gain was about 10^5 to give a 0dBm output, so the noise was around -100dBu. -- ~ Liz Tuddenham ~ (Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply) www.poppyrecords.co.uk
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| From | Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-09-26 10:14 +0200 |
| Subject | Re: Random noise generation |
| Message-ID | <1197usr$9tbq$2@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #748207 |
On 9/25/26 23:12, Liz Tuddenham wrote: > john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote: > >> On Fri, 25 Sep 2026 09:22:46 +0100, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid >> (Liz Tuddenham) wrote: > [...] >>> For a rough-and-ready audio noise generator, I used the noise of the >>> blue LED pilot light and amplified it with a quad op-amp. i also >>> included a state-variable filter so you could select: >>> >>> Full bandwidth >>> High pass >>> Low pass >>> Narrow peak >>> Narrow notch >> >> Was the led forward biased? > > Yes, it was used as the pilot light. > > > >What was its noise amplitude? > > The total voltage gain was about 10^5 to give a 0dBm output, so the > noise was around -100dBu. > That should be -100dBm, surely? Jeroen Belleman
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| From | liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Liz Tuddenham) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-09-26 14:37 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: Random noise generation |
| Message-ID | <1s21p25.du6ev31qi92xqN%liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid> |
| In reply to | #748220 |
Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote: > On 9/25/26 23:12, Liz Tuddenham wrote: > > john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote: > > > >> On Fri, 25 Sep 2026 09:22:46 +0100, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid > >> (Liz Tuddenham) wrote: > > [...] > >>> For a rough-and-ready audio noise generator, I used the noise of the > >>> blue LED pilot light and amplified it with a quad op-amp. i also > >>> included a state-variable filter so you could select: > >>> > >>> Full bandwidth > >>> High pass > >>> Low pass > >>> Narrow peak > >>> Narrow notch > >> > >> Was the led forward biased? > > > > Yes, it was used as the pilot light. > > > > > > >What was its noise amplitude? > > > > The total voltage gain was about 10^5 to give a 0dBm output, so the > > noise was around -100dBu. > > > > That should be -100dBm, surely? No, that was the (near) open-circuit voltage but it wasn't delivering that voltage into a 600-ohm load, so that is no indication of the power (which is what dBm measures). A voltage level of -100 dBu would only be equivelent to -100dBm if the circuit impedance were 600 0hms. -- ~ Liz Tuddenham ~ (Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply) www.poppyrecords.co.uk
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| From | Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-09-26 23:09 +0200 |
| Subject | Re: Random noise generation |
| Message-ID | <1199cat$psc7$3@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #748229 |
On 9/26/26 15:37, Liz Tuddenham wrote: > Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote: > >> On 9/25/26 23:12, Liz Tuddenham wrote: >>> john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote: >>> >>>> On Fri, 25 Sep 2026 09:22:46 +0100, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid >>>> (Liz Tuddenham) wrote: >>> [...] >>>>> For a rough-and-ready audio noise generator, I used the noise of the >>>>> blue LED pilot light and amplified it with a quad op-amp. i also >>>>> included a state-variable filter so you could select: >>>>> >>>>> Full bandwidth >>>>> High pass >>>>> Low pass >>>>> Narrow peak >>>>> Narrow notch >>>> >>>> Was the led forward biased? >>> >>> Yes, it was used as the pilot light. >>> >>> >>> >What was its noise amplitude? >>> >>> The total voltage gain was about 10^5 to give a 0dBm output, so the >>> noise was around -100dBu. >>> >> >> That should be -100dBm, surely? > > No, that was the (near) open-circuit voltage but it wasn't delivering > that voltage into a 600-ohm load, so that is no indication of the power > (which is what dBm measures). A voltage level of -100 dBu would only be > equivelent to -100dBm if the circuit impedance were 600 0hms. > > I see. I wasn't familiar with dBu. With a little effort, I think I could probably collect over a hundred dBxx units in use in one place or another. I use only a few. Jeroen Belleman
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| From | liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Liz Tuddenham) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-09-27 09:15 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: Random noise generation |
| Message-ID | <1s237hm.pxvqnw17snkz0N%liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid> |
| In reply to | #748254 |
Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote: > On 9/26/26 15:37, Liz Tuddenham wrote: > > Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote: > > > >> On 9/25/26 23:12, Liz Tuddenham wrote: > >>> john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote: > >>> > >>>> On Fri, 25 Sep 2026 09:22:46 +0100, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid > >>>> (Liz Tuddenham) wrote: > >>> [...] > >>>>> For a rough-and-ready audio noise generator, I used the noise of the > >>>>> blue LED pilot light and amplified it with a quad op-amp. i also > >>>>> included a state-variable filter so you could select: > >>>>> > >>>>> Full bandwidth > >>>>> High pass > >>>>> Low pass > >>>>> Narrow peak > >>>>> Narrow notch > >>>> > >>>> Was the led forward biased? > >>> > >>> Yes, it was used as the pilot light. > >>> > >>> > >>> >What was its noise amplitude? > >>> > >>> The total voltage gain was about 10^5 to give a 0dBm output, so the > >>> noise was around -100dBu. > >>> > >> > >> That should be -100dBm, surely? > > > > No, that was the (near) open-circuit voltage but it wasn't delivering > > that voltage into a 600-ohm load, so that is no indication of the power > > (which is what dBm measures). A voltage level of -100 dBu would only be > > equivelent to -100dBm if the circuit impedance were 600 0hms. > > > > > > I see. I wasn't familiar with dBu. With a little effort, I think > I could probably collect over a hundred dBxx units in use in one > place or another. I use only a few. The dB is such a useful concept that it crops up in all sorts of places but even people who use it regularly don't seem to be aware that it is a unit of power ratios ...and only power ratios ...and nothing else. To work out what those two power levels are, we may have to measure voltage and make certain assumptions. In a 600-ohm circuit, there are mathematical short cuts we can take because the impedance is always the same but using the same shorcuts in a circuit with different impedances at different points can lead to stupid results. A FET can appear to have near infinity gain if you compare power in with power out and I have had long arguments with people who insisted that a transformer gave 20 dB of gain because the output voltage was higher than the input voltage. The suffix is where the devilish detail occurs. That is how dB can be used as a measure of absolute values by referring it to some fixed quantity, such as 1 milliwatt, and specifying some measurement method, such as voltage. Hence the dBu = the ratio in dB between 1mW and the power which the voltage being measured would give if it were applied to a 600 ohm resistor. -- ~ Liz Tuddenham ~ (Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply) www.poppyrecords.co.uk
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| From | john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-09-26 09:01 -0700 |
| Subject | Re: Random noise generation |
| Message-ID | <mtqfbl5vlo40en3khlemsuq42050hgd8m2@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #748207 |
On Fri, 25 Sep 2026 22:12:11 +0100, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Liz Tuddenham) wrote: >john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote: > >> On Fri, 25 Sep 2026 09:22:46 +0100, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid >> (Liz Tuddenham) wrote: >[...] >> >For a rough-and-ready audio noise generator, I used the noise of the >> >blue LED pilot light and amplified it with a quad op-amp. i also >> >included a state-variable filter so you could select: >> > >> >Full bandwidth >> >High pass >> >Low pass >> >Narrow peak >> >Narrow notch >> >> Was the led forward biased? > >Yes, it was used as the pilot light. > > > >What was its noise amplitude? > >The total voltage gain was about 10^5 to give a 0dBm output, so the >noise was around -100dBu. What's that in volts? What amplifier did you use? John Larkin Highland Tech Glen Canyon Design Center Lunatic Fringe Electronics
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| From | liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Liz Tuddenham) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-09-26 19:45 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: Random noise generation |
| Message-ID | <1s226dd.1imujkf158keyoN%liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid> |
| In reply to | #748246 |
john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote: > On Fri, 25 Sep 2026 22:12:11 +0100, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid > (Liz Tuddenham) wrote: > > >john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote: > > > >> On Fri, 25 Sep 2026 09:22:46 +0100, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid > >> (Liz Tuddenham) wrote: > >[...] > >> >For a rough-and-ready audio noise generator, I used the noise of the > >> >blue LED pilot light and amplified it with a quad op-amp. i also > >> >included a state-variable filter so you could select: > >> > > >> >Full bandwidth > >> >High pass > >> >Low pass > >> >Narrow peak > >> >Narrow notch > >> > >> Was the led forward biased? > > > >Yes, it was used as the pilot light. > > > > > > >What was its noise amplitude? > > > >The total voltage gain was about 10^5 to give a 0dBm output, so the > >noise was around -100dBu. > > What's that in volts? About 7.75 microvolts RMS.. > > What amplifier did you use? From memory it was most likely a TL082 and a TL084 - I ve put a copy of the circuit diagram at: http://www.poppyrecords.co.uk/other/NoiseGen.gif -- ~ Liz Tuddenham ~ (Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply) www.poppyrecords.co.uk
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| From | Gerhard Hoffmann <dk4xp@arcor.de> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-03 13:34 +0200 |
| Subject | Re: Random noise generation |
| Message-ID | <119qp7k$o9f4$1@solani.org> |
| In reply to | #748191 |
Am 25.09.26 um 16:56 schrieb john larkin: > On Fri, 25 Sep 2026 09:22:46 +0100, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid > (Liz Tuddenham) wrote: > >> john larkin <jl@htigct.com> wrote: >> >>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2026 01:55:36 +0800, Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson >>> <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> wrote: >>> >>>> On 9/23/2026 1:20 AM, john larkin wrote: >>>>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2026 00:50:15 +0800, Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson >>>>> <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> On 9/23/2026 12:36 AM, john larkin wrote: >>>>>>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2026 00:08:28 +0800, Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson >>>>>>> <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> [snip] >>>>>>>> Do you make any cryptographically secure random number generators? I >>>>>>>> have a personal interest in Fortuna, but am not willing to buy a product >>>>>>>> that claims to make cryptographically secure random numbers, and does >>>>>>>> not. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> No. A really good random number generator would start with a >>>>>>> physics-based source, probably Johnson noise, and scramble that. We >>>>>>> just want to simulate random vibration and jitter. >>>>>> >>>>>> Fair enough. For cryptographical purposes, people need to be aware of >>>>>> /three letter agencies/ subverting physics based sources. This has been >>>>>> mentioned in books by Schneier, so I presume you know all about it, and >>>>>> I won't have to expand further on the subject. >>>>> >>>>> No, I didn't know. How can one subvert Johnson or zener noise? One >>>>> could easily have a dozen of them and scramble hard. >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Some people don't want to go off-chip, so use a bunch of bad ring >>>>>>> oscillators. >>>>>> >>>>>> I believe I have somewhere an external noise generator. Forgive me if >>>>>> I don't recall exactly what, as that project has been dormant for some >>>>>> time. It's a ready made /click/ for my PIC32 development board, if I >>>>>> recall correctly. So please don't consider myself as one of those peo- >>>>>> ple. >>>>>> >>>>>> Have you ever experimented with audio input as a physics based source? >>>>>> I believe you won't even need a microphone, as you should be able to >>>>>> just plug a wire in the mini-jack audio receptor, and use that like an >>>>>> antenna. >>>>> >>>>> That could have bad statistics. A real random signal should have no >>>>> statistics! >>>> >>>> I don't think you can get a /real random signal/ with a physical input >>>> of some kind. And to adjust for the bad statistics -- for now, let's >>>> just assume so -- you can fix that on the software end. >>>> >>>> Read every /word/ from the ADC [1], and keep only the least significant >>>> bit, discard the rest. After thirty two words from the ADC you have a >>>> single integer for the digital random number generator. >>>> >>>> Of course, that might not be good enough, nor fast enough, for the app- >>>> lication, and you can mix that into a more complex R.N.G. with a /linear >>>> feedback shift register/ -- if I recall my nomenclature correctly -- or >>>> at the deep end of the pool, Fortuna. >>> >>> I'd have a number of channels. Each a zener diode, amplifier, highpass >>> filter, and a comparator. Feed the comparators into an FPGA and >>> scramble them digitally. >>> >>> A zener will make ballpark 300 nV/rthz of pretty white noise. That's >>> easier to process than resistor Johnson noise. >> >> If you look at the output from a zener diode on an oscilloscope, it >> appears to made up of jumps between discrete levels; although it may be >> time-random it isn't voltage-random. > > I posted some notes on that. I found different behavior in different > current zones. > >> >> For a rough-and-ready audio noise generator, I used the noise of the >> blue LED pilot light and amplified it with a quad op-amp. i also >> included a state-variable filter so you could select: >> >> Full bandwidth >> High pass >> Low pass >> Narrow peak >> Narrow notch > > Was the led forward biased? What was its noise amplitude? Absolute noise levels of some LEDs: < https://www.flickr.com/photos/137684711@N07/24354944411/in/album-72157662535945536 > 0 dB is 1 nV/rt Hz The LEDs are fed from NiCd 14V via 1 or 2 KOhm. Noisewise, king of the hill is HP/Avago HLMP6000. Optically, it is quite a dim bulb, literally. Preamp is 10 pairs of ADA4898-2 in parallel, 220 pV/rtHz in the flat part. The worse than 1/f noise rise towards low frequencies comes from the undersized input coupling capacitor. It must be much bigger than needed for the lower corner frequency since it must short the bias resistor noise through the low-impedance DUT. Scott Wurcer RIP, the father of AD797, AD825.. saw that immediately. I took 2 weeks longer. Pics to the right: some regulators, then some Zeners/avalanche diodes. > The nice thing about zener noise is that it's big, so swamps amplifier > noise, like 1/f. No, Zeners are fine. In the pic, the BZX84 family the 2.7V is > 30 dB better than the 6V8. At 5 to 7V the avalanche effect has taken over. At 3V3 and 4V7 it starts to get worse and worse, noise-wise. Zener and Avalanche have different signs of TK. Somewhere near 6V they compensate each other. In a case of scientific honesty, Prof. Zener sued the industry that they should not use his name for avalanche diodes. He won, but the ghost had already escaped the bottle. I once used the BE junction of a BFR93A transistor as a noise head and had it measured at the Weinheim amateur radio meeting. It delivered 22 dB excess noise to > 2 GHz flat. Now, I have such a thing + 8970B: < https://www.keysight.com/us/en/product/346A/noise-source-10-mhz-18-ghz-nominal-enr-6-db.html > cheers, Gerhard
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