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xkcd: 2018

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  xkcd: 2018 Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> - 2017-12-29 13:16 -0600
    xkcd: 2018 mcdowell_ag@sky.com - 2017-12-29 11:32 -0800
      Re: xkcd: 2018 Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2017-12-29 11:46 -0800
      Re: xkcd: 2018 Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> - 2017-12-29 15:43 -0600
        Re: xkcd: 2018 mcdowell_ag@sky.com - 2017-12-29 22:23 -0800
    xkcd: 2018 Jack Bohn <jack.bohn64@gmail.com> - 2017-12-29 12:45 -0800
      Re: xkcd: 2018 Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2017-12-29 13:19 -0700
        Re: xkcd: 2018 David DeLaney <daviddelaney@earthlink.net> - 2017-12-30 03:37 -0600
      Re: xkcd: 2018 nebusj-@-rpi-.edu (Joseph Nebus) - 2017-12-31 06:59 +0000
      Re: xkcd: 2018 Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> - 2018-01-02 07:23 -0700
    Re: xkcd: 2018 Cryptoengineer <treifamily@gmail.com> - 2017-12-29 20:51 -0600
      Re: xkcd: 2018 David DeLaney <daviddelaney@earthlink.net> - 2017-12-30 03:40 -0600
        Re: xkcd: 2018 Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2017-12-30 05:22 -0800
          Re: xkcd: 2018 djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2017-12-30 15:07 +0000
            Re: xkcd: 2018 William Hyde <wthyde1953@gmail.com> - 2017-12-30 12:23 -0800
              Re: xkcd: 2018 djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2017-12-30 21:10 +0000
                Re: xkcd: 2018 William Hyde <wthyde1953@gmail.com> - 2017-12-31 12:09 -0800
            Re: xkcd: 2018 Jerry Brown <jerry@jwbrown.co.uk.invalid> - 2017-12-30 20:53 +0000
              Re: xkcd: 2018 djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2017-12-30 21:10 +0000
                Re: xkcd: 2018 Jerry Brown <jerry@jwbrown.co.uk.invalid> - 2017-12-31 07:48 +0000
                  Re: xkcd: 2018 Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2017-12-31 01:11 -0800
                  Re: xkcd: 2018 djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2017-12-31 15:05 +0000
                    Re: xkcd: 2018 Wolffan <aklwolffan@gmail.com> - 2017-12-31 11:06 -0500
                      Re: xkcd: 2018 mcdowell_ag@sky.com - 2017-12-31 08:23 -0800
                        Re: xkcd: 2018 djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2017-12-31 17:26 +0000
                          Re: xkcd: 2018 William Hyde <wthyde1953@gmail.com> - 2017-12-31 12:23 -0800
                      Re: xkcd: 2018 djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2017-12-31 17:02 +0000
                    Re: xkcd: 2018 Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2017-12-31 10:03 -0800
                      Re: xkcd: 2018 Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2017-12-31 11:35 -0800
                        Re: xkcd: 2018 djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2017-12-31 21:23 +0000
                          Re: xkcd: 2018 djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2018-01-01 02:08 +0000
                            Re: xkcd: 2018 wollman@bimajority.org (Garrett Wollman) - 2018-01-01 03:33 +0000
                              Re: xkcd: 2018 djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2018-01-01 05:19 +0000
                                Re: xkcd: 2018 wollman@bimajority.org (Garrett Wollman) - 2018-01-01 06:40 +0000
                          Re: xkcd: 2018 goldfarb@ocf.berkeley.edu (David Goldfarb) - 2018-01-01 06:48 +0000
                            Re: xkcd: 2018 D B Davis <g@crcomp.net> - 2018-01-01 18:22 +0000
                      Re: xkcd: 2018 Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> - 2018-01-02 07:33 -0700
                        Re: xkcd: 2018 Lawrence Watt-Evans <misenchantedpress@gmail.com> - 2018-01-02 15:20 -0500
                          Re: xkcd: 2018 wollman@bimajority.org (Garrett Wollman) - 2018-01-02 22:14 +0000
                            Re: xkcd: 2018 Lawrence Watt-Evans <misenchantedpress@gmail.com> - 2018-01-03 02:21 -0500
                          Re: xkcd: 2018 Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2018-01-02 14:50 -0800
        Re: xkcd: 2018 Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2017-12-30 08:23 -0800
    Re: xkcd: 2018 Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2018-01-03 08:06 -0800

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#483797

On Sunday, December 31, 2017 at 2:48:18 AM UTC-5, Jerry Brown wrote:
> On Sat, 30 Dec 2017 21:10:53 GMT, djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J
> Heydt) wrote:
> 
> >In article <03vf4dhup14a5kmmfbug10r5255277uugt@jwbrown.co.uk>,
> >Jerry Brown  <jerry@jwbrown.co.uk.invalid> wrote:
> >>On Sat, 30 Dec 2017 15:07:29 GMT, djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J
> >>Heydt) wrote:
> >>
> >>>In article <4a55bebb-611a-44bd-9953-7662b4179598@googlegroups.com>,
> >>>Kevrob  <kevrob@my-deja.com> wrote:
> >>>>On Saturday, December 30, 2017 at 4:40:45 AM UTC-5, David DeLaney wrote:
> >>>>> On 2017-12-30, Cryptoengineer <treifamily@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>> > Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote in news:p2649p$ca3$1@dont-
> >>>>> >> xkcd: 2018
> >>>>> >>     https://xkcd.com/1935/
> >>>>> >> 
> >>>>> >> This theater of the absurd is for cryptodude.
> >>>>> >> 
> >>>>> >> And the explanation is just as absurd.
> >>>>> >>     http://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/1935
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> > LOL!
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> From the discussion:
> >>>>> 
> >>>>>   The calculation of Christmas is trivial[citation needed] it's
> >>>>December 25th. 
> >>>>
> >>>>You may have to offset that by 13 days for those Orthodox
> >>>>believers who keep to the unrevised Julian liturgical calendar.
> >>>>
> >>>>http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/2013/01/russian_christmas_date_why_do_eastern_orthodox_christians_celebrate_christmas.html
> >>>>
> >>>>If you start with Dec 5, St Nick's eve, and end with Jan 19 (old
> >>>>Julian), Epiphany, commemorating the visit of the Magi, it takes over a
> >>>>month 
> >>>>to get all the presents distributed to the good boys and girls of the 
> >>>>world. One night of "Christmas magic" isn't enough. 
> >>>
> >>>And come to that, in the Middle Ages "Christmastide" lasted till
> >>>Candlemas, February 2.
> >>
> >>A guy I work with still goes along with that. He's Catholic, but none
> >>of the other Catholics I know agree, so it must just be specific to
> >>him.
> >
> >Candlemas is still celebrated on February 2, but the Christmas
> >season ends with Epiphany (which is now celebrated on the nearest
> >Sunday).
> 
> Well, he keeps his decorations up until Candlemass, and tried (and
> failed) to get the office to do the same.
>

When I was a lad, we kept the Christmas tree up until the the 6th.
since we always had a real tree, keeping it up later would have
been a real fire hazard.  I've seen it suggested that the tree
and other flammable decorations be taken down after 12th Night,
though the creche might be displaced until Candlemas.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelfth_Night_(holiday)

With this year's flu shot being not as effective as hoped for, if I 
were still Catholic I'd get my throat blessed on 3 Feb, St Blaise's 
day.

ObSF: Bleys Ahrens, from Dickson's Childe Cycle.

Kevin R

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#483799

In article <if5h4d565fos9evhg2taffcrbpal2qoosi@jwbrown.co.uk>,
Jerry Brown  <jerry@jwbrown.co.uk.invalid> wrote:
>On Sat, 30 Dec 2017 21:10:53 GMT, djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J
>Heydt) wrote:
>
>>In article <03vf4dhup14a5kmmfbug10r5255277uugt@jwbrown.co.uk>,
>>Jerry Brown  <jerry@jwbrown.co.uk.invalid> wrote:
>>>On Sat, 30 Dec 2017 15:07:29 GMT, djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J
>>>Heydt) wrote:
>>>
>>>>In article <4a55bebb-611a-44bd-9953-7662b4179598@googlegroups.com>,
>>>>Kevrob  <kevrob@my-deja.com> wrote:
>>>>>On Saturday, December 30, 2017 at 4:40:45 AM UTC-5, David DeLaney wrote:
>>>>>> On 2017-12-30, Cryptoengineer <treifamily@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> > Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote in news:p2649p$ca3$1@dont-
>>>>>> >> xkcd: 2018
>>>>>> >>     https://xkcd.com/1935/
>>>>>> >> 
>>>>>> >> This theater of the absurd is for cryptodude.
>>>>>> >> 
>>>>>> >> And the explanation is just as absurd.
>>>>>> >>     http://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/1935
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > LOL!
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> From the discussion:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>   The calculation of Christmas is trivial[citation needed] it's
>>>>>December 25th. 
>>>>>
>>>>>You may have to offset that by 13 days for those Orthodox
>>>>>believers who keep to the unrevised Julian liturgical calendar.
>>>>>
>>>>>http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/2013/01/russian_christmas_date_why_do_eastern_orthodox_christians_celebrate_christmas.html
>>>>>
>>>>>If you start with Dec 5, St Nick's eve, and end with Jan 19 (old
>>>>>Julian), Epiphany, commemorating the visit of the Magi, it takes over a
>>>>>month 
>>>>>to get all the presents distributed to the good boys and girls of the 
>>>>>world. One night of "Christmas magic" isn't enough. 
>>>>
>>>>And come to that, in the Middle Ages "Christmastide" lasted till
>>>>Candlemas, February 2.
>>>
>>>A guy I work with still goes along with that. He's Catholic, but none
>>>of the other Catholics I know agree, so it must just be specific to
>>>him.
>>
>>Candlemas is still celebrated on February 2, but the Christmas
>>season ends with Epiphany (which is now celebrated on the nearest
>>Sunday).
>
>Well, he keeps his decorations up until Candlemass, and tried (and
>failed) to get the office to do the same.

Somebody once wrote in to Dear Prudence (the agony aunt on
_Slate_) complaining that her neighbor still had his Christmas
lights up in mid-January.  And somebody else commented that in
Alaska people put the lights up in November or thereabouts and
leave them up till March or thereabouts, just to lighten the dark
Arctic lights a little.

-- 
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com

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#483801

On 2017 Dec 31, Dorothy J Heydt wrote
(in article <p1tz8M.Esx@kithrup.com>):

> In article<if5h4d565fos9evhg2taffcrbpal2qoosi@jwbrown.co.uk>,
> Jerry Brown <jerry@jwbrown.co.uk.invalid>  wrote:
> > On Sat, 30 Dec 2017 21:10:53 GMT, djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J
> > Heydt) wrote:
> >
> > > In article<03vf4dhup14a5kmmfbug10r5255277uugt@jwbrown.co.uk>,
> > > Jerry Brown <jerry@jwbrown.co.uk.invalid>  wrote:
> > > > On Sat, 30 Dec 2017 15:07:29 GMT, djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J
> > > > Heydt) wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > In article<4a55bebb-611a-44bd-9953-7662b4179598@googlegroups.com>,
> > > > > Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com>  wrote:
> > > > > > On Saturday, December 30, 2017 at 4:40:45 AM UTC-5, David DeLaney wrote:
> > > > > > > On 2017-12-30, Cryptoengineer<treifamily@gmail.com>  wrote:
> > > > > > > > Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote in news:p2649p$ca3$1@dont-
> > > > > > > > > xkcd: 2018
> > > > > > > > > https://xkcd.com/1935/
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > This theater of the absurd is for cryptodude.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > And the explanation is just as absurd.
> > > > > > > > > http://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/1935
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > LOL!
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > From the discussion:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The calculation of Christmas is trivial[citation needed] it's
> > > > > > December 25th.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > You may have to offset that by 13 days for those Orthodox
> > > > > > believers who keep to the unrevised Julian liturgical calendar.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/2013/01/russia
> > > > > > n_christmas_date_why_do_eastern_orthodox_christians_celebrate_christmas.
> > > > > > html
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If you start with Dec 5, St Nick's eve, and end with Jan 19 (old
> > > > > > Julian), Epiphany, commemorating the visit of the Magi, it takes over a
> > > > > > month
> > > > > > to get all the presents distributed to the good boys and girls of the
> > > > > > world. One night of "Christmas magic" isn't enough.
> > > > >
> > > > > And come to that, in the Middle Ages "Christmastide" lasted till
> > > > > Candlemas, February 2.
> > > >
> > > > A guy I work with still goes along with that. He's Catholic, but none
> > > > of the other Catholics I know agree, so it must just be specific to
> > > > him.
> > >
> > > Candlemas is still celebrated on February 2, but the Christmas
> > > season ends with Epiphany (which is now celebrated on the nearest
> > > Sunday).
> >
> > Well, he keeps his decorations up until Candlemass, and tried (and
> > failed) to get the office to do the same.
>
> Somebody once wrote in to Dear Prudence (the agony aunt on
> _Slate_) complaining that her neighbor still had his Christmas
> lights up in mid-January.

I don’t care enough to bother complaining about that kind of nonsense. 
There’s one gentleman in the neighborhood who puts up Halloween 
decorations, replaces those with Thanksgiving stuff, replaces those with 
Christmas stuff, and replaces those with Valentines stuff, and replaces those 
with Easter stuff. He’s got inflatables and lights and crap up from 
September to April. It stays on his property, it’s not overly gaudy (his 
version of St Joseph isn’t wearing bright pink robes, unlike certain others 
I can think of, whose owners take offense when I ask them if they really 
think that Jesus’ stepdad was gay) and it makes him happy. (They gay St 
Joes have mostly departed, the new versions have brown robes. Much less 
strident. Mission accomplished.) I don’t have a problem with it. Idiot 
busybodies, them I have a problem with.
> And somebody else commented that in
> Alaska people put the lights up in November or thereabouts and
> leave them up till March or thereabouts, just to lighten the dark
> Arctic lights a little.

that would be the only reason why I’d put that stuff up.

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#483804

On Sunday, December 31, 2017 at 4:06:36 PM UTC, Wolffan wrote:
> On 2017 Dec 31, Dorothy J Heydt wrote
> (in article <p1tz8M.Esx@kithrup.com>):
> 
> > In article<if5h4d565fos9evhg2taffcrbpal2qoosi@jwbrown.co.uk>,
> > Jerry Brown <jerry@jwbrown.co.uk.invalid>  wrote:
> > > On Sat, 30 Dec 2017 21:10:53 GMT, djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J
> > > Heydt) wrote:
> > >
> > > > In article<03vf4dhup14a5kmmfbug10r5255277uugt@jwbrown.co.uk>,
> > > > Jerry Brown <jerry@jwbrown.co.uk.invalid>  wrote:
> > > > > On Sat, 30 Dec 2017 15:07:29 GMT, djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J
> > > > > Heydt) wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > In article<4a55bebb-611a-44bd-9953-7662b4179598@googlegroups.com>,
> > > > > > Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com>  wrote:
> > > > > > > On Saturday, December 30, 2017 at 4:40:45 AM UTC-5, David DeLaney wrote:
> > > > > > > > On 2017-12-30, Cryptoengineer<treifamily@gmail.com>  wrote:
> > > > > > > > > Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote in news:p2649p$ca3$1@dont-
> > > > > > > > > > xkcd: 2018
> > > > > > > > > > https://xkcd.com/1935/
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > This theater of the absurd is for cryptodude.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > And the explanation is just as absurd.
> > > > > > > > > > http://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/1935
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > LOL!
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > From the discussion:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The calculation of Christmas is trivial[citation needed] it's
> > > > > > > December 25th.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > You may have to offset that by 13 days for those Orthodox
> > > > > > > believers who keep to the unrevised Julian liturgical calendar.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/2013/01/russia
> > > > > > > n_christmas_date_why_do_eastern_orthodox_christians_celebrate_christmas.
> > > > > > > html
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > If you start with Dec 5, St Nick's eve, and end with Jan 19 (old
> > > > > > > Julian), Epiphany, commemorating the visit of the Magi, it takes over a
> > > > > > > month
> > > > > > > to get all the presents distributed to the good boys and girls of the
> > > > > > > world. One night of "Christmas magic" isn't enough.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > And come to that, in the Middle Ages "Christmastide" lasted till
> > > > > > Candlemas, February 2.
> > > > >
> > > > > A guy I work with still goes along with that. He's Catholic, but none
> > > > > of the other Catholics I know agree, so it must just be specific to
> > > > > him.
> > > >
> > > > Candlemas is still celebrated on February 2, but the Christmas
> > > > season ends with Epiphany (which is now celebrated on the nearest
> > > > Sunday).
> > >
> > > Well, he keeps his decorations up until Candlemass, and tried (and
> > > failed) to get the office to do the same.
> >
> > Somebody once wrote in to Dear Prudence (the agony aunt on
> > _Slate_) complaining that her neighbor still had his Christmas
> > lights up in mid-January.
> 
> I don’t care enough to bother complaining about that kind of nonsense. 
> There’s one gentleman in the neighborhood who puts up Halloween 
> decorations, replaces those with Thanksgiving stuff, replaces those with 
> Christmas stuff, and replaces those with Valentines stuff, and replaces those 
> with Easter stuff. He’s got inflatables and lights and crap up from 
> September to April. It stays on his property, it’s not overly gaudy (his 
> version of St Joseph isn’t wearing bright pink robes, unlike certain others 
> I can think of, whose owners take offense when I ask them if they really 
> think that Jesus’ stepdad was gay) and it makes him happy. (They gay St 
> Joes have mostly departed, the new versions have brown robes. Much less 
> strident. Mission accomplished.) I don’t have a problem with it. Idiot 
> busybodies, them I have a problem with.
> > And somebody else commented that in
> > Alaska people put the lights up in November or thereabouts and
> > leave them up till March or thereabouts, just to lighten the dark
> > Arctic lights a little.
> 
> that would be the only reason why I’d put that stuff up.

There is of course the church tradition that Joseph was an old man and "Portraying him as a very old man, they thought, was the best way of upholding belief in the perpetual virginity of Mary and Joseph". Perhaps you have hit on a theological innovation :-)

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#483811

In article <efb3ee36-35cb-41e8-9630-f04f0ae93768@googlegroups.com>,
 <mcdowell_ag@sky.com> wrote:
>
>There is of course the church tradition that Joseph was an old man and
>"Portraying him as a very old man, they thought, was the best way of
>upholding belief in the perpetual virginity of Mary and Joseph". Perhaps
>you have hit on a theological innovation :-)

Once long ago the local classical music station got together with
one of the local record stores to put on a Bach festival, and
they got an actor to come dressed as Bach and sign autographs in
a very creditable imitation of Bach's signature.  He had done his
homework, and stayed in character throughout.

And at one point somebody asked him, "When your first wife died,
you already had twenty children.  Why did you marry *again?*"

And he said, "Because I had twenty children!  Somebody had to
look after them."

Which would explain why Jesus had brothers.  Half-brothers by
Joseph's late first wife.  As to Mary's perpetual virginity,
if you were a pious man and believed (because an angel had told
you) that your new wife was the bride of the Holy Spirit, would
you feel entitled to go to bed with her thereafter?  So far as I
know, no theologican has yet put forth this hypothesis, but it
makes sense to me.

Now as you know, Bob, Christianity represents (inter alia) a
fusion of Jewish and Indo-European cultural elements.  

In traditional Jewish culture, all young women were supposed to
marry and have children.  Remember Jephtha's daughter, whose sad
tale mirrors the initial premise of _Beauty and the Beast_?  Her
father had vowed that if he won his battle, he would sacrifice to
the Lord the first creature he saw when he got home.  And that
was his daughter.  So she asked him to hold off for a season so
that she could go apart and "bewail her virginity" -- that is,
that she would die a virgin and never be a mother.

Indo-European culture, on the other hand, appears to have had a
tradition of some women remaining virgins and devoting themselves
to God or the gods.  Consider the Vestal Virgins in Rome.  The
goddess Vesta, and her Greek counterpart Hestia, correspond to
the _filia de astro_ (the hearth-daughter) in mortal families,
the youngest daughter who did not marry but stayed home to care
for her parents in their old age.

But there's an Indian* story recounted by Georges Dumezil, which
goes as follows.

There was a king who had everything he wanted -- including sons,
we must assume, because if he had had no sons he would have had
an entirely different story -- except four magnificent horses,
each of which belonged to one of his four fellow kings.

So he went to one of his fellow kings, and said, "What will you
take in trade for your magnificent horse?"  And the other king
said, "A son of mine born of your daughter."  And the other three
kings said the same.

The king's only daughter was a pledged virgin, living deep in the
forest serving the gods.  But her royal father sought her out and
explained his difficulty ... and she said, "All right, I can do
that."

So she went and lived with the first horse-owning king, became
pregnant by him, bore him a son, gave him to a wet-nurse, and as
soon as she recovered, went to the next king and repreated the
process.  And so on, until each king had a son by her and her
father had the four magnificent horses he wanted.

*And then she went back to the forest and resumed the life of a
pledged virgin, serving the gods.*

It would appear that the concept "virgin," to these earlyish
Indo-European speakers, meant not "never had sex" but "doesn't
have to bring up children, which can take up all your time and
attention and leave nothing for anything else."

Which is perfectly true.

_____
*Dot, not feather, as they say in the UK.

-- 
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com

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#483826

On Sunday, December 31, 2017 at 12:45:08 PM UTC-5, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> In article <efb3ee36-35cb-41e8-9630-f04f0ae93768@googlegroups.com>,
>  <mcdowell_ag@sky.com> wrote:
> >
> >There is of course the church tradition that Joseph was an old man and
> >"Portraying him as a very old man, they thought, was the best way of
> >upholding belief in the perpetual virginity of Mary and Joseph". Perhaps
> >you have hit on a theological innovation :-)
> 
> Once long ago the local classical music station got together with
> one of the local record stores to put on a Bach festival, and
> they got an actor to come dressed as Bach and sign autographs in
> a very creditable imitation of Bach's signature.  He had done his
> homework, and stayed in character throughout.
> 
> And at one point somebody asked him, "When your first wife died,
> you already had twenty children.  Why did you marry *again?*"
> 
> And he said, "Because I had twenty children!  Somebody had to
> look after them."
> 
> Which would explain why Jesus had brothers.  Half-brothers by
> Joseph's late first wife.  As to Mary's perpetual virginity,
> if you were a pious man and believed (because an angel had told
> you) that your new wife was the bride of the Holy Spirit, would
> you feel entitled to go to bed with her thereafter?  So far as I
> know, no theologican has yet put forth this hypothesis, but it
> makes sense to me.
> 
> Now as you know, Bob, Christianity represents (inter alia) a
> fusion of Jewish and Indo-European cultural elements.  
> 
> In traditional Jewish culture, all young women were supposed to
> marry and have children.  Remember Jephtha's daughter, whose sad
> tale mirrors the initial premise of _Beauty and the Beast_?  Her
> father had vowed that if he won his battle, he would sacrifice to
> the Lord the first creature he saw when he got home.  And that
> was his daughter.  So she asked him to hold off for a season so
> that she could go apart and "bewail her virginity" -- that is,
> that she would die a virgin and never be a mother.
> 
> Indo-European culture, on the other hand, appears to have had a
> tradition of some women remaining virgins and devoting themselves
> to God or the gods.  Consider the Vestal Virgins in Rome.  The
> goddess Vesta, and her Greek counterpart Hestia, correspond to
> the _filia de astro_ (the hearth-daughter) in mortal families,
> the youngest daughter who did not marry but stayed home to care
> for her parents in their old age.

It was possible, though barely, for a Vestal Virgin to legitimately have children.  The term of a Vestal was for thirty years, and girls were generally brought into the order before  age ten, sometimes as early as six. So a late marriage and children was a possibility.

A Vestal who had left the order retained considerable legal privileges - many of the rights that otherwise only men had - and lost all of these on marriage. Which would be a serious incentive to stay in the order or, if leaving, at least not to marry.  These were upper class women and would have had property of their own.

William Hyde  

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#483809

In article <0001HW.1FF942820192C4FC70000F8062CF@news.supernews.com>,
Wolffan  <aklwolffan@gmail.com> wrote:
>On 2017 Dec 31, Dorothy J Heydt wrote
>(in article <p1tz8M.Esx@kithrup.com>):
>
>> In article<if5h4d565fos9evhg2taffcrbpal2qoosi@jwbrown.co.uk>,
>> Jerry Brown <jerry@jwbrown.co.uk.invalid>  wrote:
>> > On Sat, 30 Dec 2017 21:10:53 GMT, djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J
>> > Heydt) wrote:
>>
>> Somebody once wrote in to Dear Prudence (the agony aunt on
>> _Slate_) complaining that her neighbor still had his Christmas
>> lights up in mid-January.
>
>I don’t care enough to bother complaining about that kind of nonsense. 
>There’s one gentleman in the neighborhood who puts up Halloween 
>decorations, replaces those with Thanksgiving stuff, ... [et
cetera]

My daughter puts up Halloween stuff and leaves it up *all year*.
She takes the lights down, or at least turns them off, after
Halloween, but the tombstones and things stay around the front of
the house all year round.  

/sigh

I would put up Christmas lights if I had any way of powering
them.  There are NO exterior power plugs on the house* except one
in the back yard.  I do generally put up four electric candles
for Advent in my only front window, but because of medical stuff
I didn't have the energy this year.

_____
*Built in 1878, electrified I don't know when, but the electrical
system is definitely old and needs updating.  The thought that it
might be a fire hazard (believe me or believe me not) didn't
occur to me till I was typing the previous sentence.  The
landlord, like the rest of us, is operating on a shoestring and
it's only in the past year that we've persuaded him to
contemplate replacing the roof, which has been leaking here and
there for a couple years and shedding shingles since we moved in
eight years ago.

-- 
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com

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#483814

On Sunday, December 31, 2017 at 10:30:07 AM UTC-5, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
to get the office to do the same.
> 
> Somebody once wrote in to Dear Prudence (the agony aunt on
> _Slate_) complaining that her neighbor still had his Christmas
> lights up in mid-January.  And somebody else commented that in
> Alaska people put the lights up in November or thereabouts and
> leave them up till March or thereabouts, just to lighten the dark
> Arctic lights a little.

When I lived in Milwaukee, one of the radio hosts there, or possibly
on a Chicago station, would publicly shame people - not by name, IMS,
but with something like "the big pink house on the so-&-so block of
Whofdyacallit street" - for having their Christmas wreaths, often brown 
and sere, hanging on their front doors well into Lent.

It was a funny bit.  Quite a few people kept Christmas lights up,
without lighting them.  Midwestern weather being what it is, folks
often never used the front door in the winter unless company is calling.
Wet and often muddy boots and sodden clothing made entering through the
kitchen door, or into a "mud room" wiser.  If the house had an attached
garage, puling the car in and, after switching off, removing foul
weather gear inside, then entering the house proper was convenient.

Every once in a while the post office would refuse to deliver mail 
to homes whose occupants didn't clear a path to the front porch, steps
or stoop, if that was where the mailbox was located.  Living in an
area with the mailbox at the end of the driveway, one sometimes has the 
joy of shoveling it out so the carrier can reach it from the mail truck,
only to have town plow cover it with more snow!

We got light snow yesterday.  No danger of being plowed in today.
14°F/-10°C.  May get down to 3°F/-16°C tonight.

[For Keith: 14 F/-10 C.  May get down to 3° F/-16 C tonight.]

Kevin R

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#483820

On Sunday, December 31, 2017 at 1:03:38 PM UTC-5, Kevrob wrote:

> [For Keith: 14 F/-10 C.  May get down to 3° F/-16 C tonight.]

How did that degree sign not get extirpated?! :)

[For Keith: 14 F/-10 C.  May get down to 3 F/-16 C tonight.]

Kevin R

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#483832

In article <7400f980-7c11-4379-a598-2a90f80fe57e@googlegroups.com>,
Kevrob  <kevrob@my-deja.com> wrote:
>On Sunday, December 31, 2017 at 1:03:38 PM UTC-5, Kevrob wrote:
>
>> [For Keith: 14 F/-10 C.  May get down to 3° F/-16 C tonight.]

>How did that degree sign not get extirpated?! :)

And for me, for whom (as you know, Bob) trn does *not* do any of
those funny characters, I got 3 ctrl-A degree sign!

Now, in vi, it's reading 3 backslash-xc2 backslash-xb0.

-- 
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com

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#483850

In article <p1uGru.1H2I@kithrup.com>,
Dorothy J Heydt <djheydt@kithrup.com> wrote:
>In article <7400f980-7c11-4379-a598-2a90f80fe57e@googlegroups.com>,
>Kevrob  <kevrob@my-deja.com> wrote:
>>On Sunday, December 31, 2017 at 1:03:38 PM UTC-5, Kevrob wrote:
>>
>>> [For Keith: 14 F/-10 C.  May get down to 3° F/-16 C tonight.]
>
>>How did that degree sign not get extirpated?! :)
>
>And for me, for whom (as you know, Bob) trn does *not* do any of
>those funny characters, I got 3 ctrl-A degree sign!

Looking at it again (in trn, not vi) I see it's actually
A-with-a-caret-over-it, not ctrl-A.

-- 
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com

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#483853

In article <p1utyt.3yt@kithrup.com>,
Dorothy J Heydt <djheydt@kithrup.com> wrote:
>In article <p1uGru.1H2I@kithrup.com>,
>Dorothy J Heydt <djheydt@kithrup.com> wrote:
>>In article <7400f980-7c11-4379-a598-2a90f80fe57e@googlegroups.com>,
>>Kevrob  <kevrob@my-deja.com> wrote:
>>>On Sunday, December 31, 2017 at 1:03:38 PM UTC-5, Kevrob wrote:
>>>
>>>> [For Keith: 14 F/-10 C.  May get down to 3° F/-16 C tonight.]
>>
>>>How did that degree sign not get extirpated?! :)
>>
>>And for me, for whom (as you know, Bob) trn does *not* do any of
>>those funny characters, I got 3 ctrl-A degree sign!
>
>Looking at it again (in trn, not vi) I see it's actually
>A-with-a-caret-over-it, not ctrl-A.

| iconv -f utf-8 -t iso8859-1

-GAWollman
-- 
Garrett A. Wollman    | "Act to avoid constraining the future; if you can,
wollman@bimajority.org| act to remove constraint from the future.  This is
Opinions not shared by| a thing you can do, are able to do, to do together."
my employers.         | - Graydon Saunders, _A Succession of Bad Days_ (2015)

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#483857

In article <p2ca71$2p81$1@grapevine.csail.mit.edu>,
Garrett Wollman <wollman@bimajority.org> wrote:
>In article <p1utyt.3yt@kithrup.com>,
>Dorothy J Heydt <djheydt@kithrup.com> wrote:
>>In article <p1uGru.1H2I@kithrup.com>,
>>Dorothy J Heydt <djheydt@kithrup.com> wrote:
>>>In article <7400f980-7c11-4379-a598-2a90f80fe57e@googlegroups.com>,
>>>Kevrob  <kevrob@my-deja.com> wrote:
>>>>On Sunday, December 31, 2017 at 1:03:38 PM UTC-5, Kevrob wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> [For Keith: 14 F/-10 C.  May get down to 3° F/-16 C tonight.]
>>>
>>>>How did that degree sign not get extirpated?! :)
>>>
>>>And for me, for whom (as you know, Bob) trn does *not* do any of
>>>those funny characters, I got 3 ctrl-A degree sign!
>>
>>Looking at it again (in trn, not vi) I see it's actually
>>A-with-a-caret-over-it, not ctrl-A.
>
>| iconv -f utf-8 -t iso8859-1

Gesundheit.

-- 
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com

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#483859

In article <p1v2rs.LIM@kithrup.com>,
Dorothy J Heydt <djheydt@kithrup.com> wrote:
>In article <p2ca71$2p81$1@grapevine.csail.mit.edu>,
>Garrett Wollman <wollman@bimajority.org> wrote:
>>In article <p1utyt.3yt@kithrup.com>,
>>Dorothy J Heydt <djheydt@kithrup.com> wrote:
>>>In article <p1uGru.1H2I@kithrup.com>,
>>>Dorothy J Heydt <djheydt@kithrup.com> wrote:
>>>>In article <7400f980-7c11-4379-a598-2a90f80fe57e@googlegroups.com>,
>>>>Kevrob  <kevrob@my-deja.com> wrote:
>>>>>On Sunday, December 31, 2017 at 1:03:38 PM UTC-5, Kevrob wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> [For Keith: 14 F/-10 C.  May get down to 3° F/-16 C tonight.]
>>>>
>>>>>How did that degree sign not get extirpated?! :)
>>>>
>>>>And for me, for whom (as you know, Bob) trn does *not* do any of
>>>>those funny characters, I got 3 ctrl-A degree sign!
>>>
>>>Looking at it again (in trn, not vi) I see it's actually
>>>A-with-a-caret-over-it, not ctrl-A.
>>
>>| iconv -f utf-8 -t iso8859-1
>
>Gesundheit.

If you type that command into trn exactly as written, it will apply
the secret decoder ring and either show you the text as originally
intended, or else give you an error message because the characters in
the article can't be represented on your display.

-GAWollman

-- 
Garrett A. Wollman    | "Act to avoid constraining the future; if you can,
wollman@bimajority.org| act to remove constraint from the future.  This is
Opinions not shared by| a thing you can do, are able to do, to do together."
my employers.         | - Graydon Saunders, _A Succession of Bad Days_ (2015)

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#483861

In article <p1uGru.1H2I@kithrup.com>,
Dorothy J Heydt <djheydt@kithrup.com> wrote:
>In article <7400f980-7c11-4379-a598-2a90f80fe57e@googlegroups.com>,
>Kevrob  <kevrob@my-deja.com> wrote:
>>On Sunday, December 31, 2017 at 1:03:38 PM UTC-5, Kevrob wrote:
>>
>>> [For Keith: 14 F/-10 C.  May get down to 3° F/-16 C tonight.]
>
>>How did that degree sign not get extirpated?! :)
>
>And for me, for whom (as you know, Bob) trn does *not* do any of
>those funny characters, I got 3 ctrl-A degree sign!

Dorothy: trn has nothing to do with it. It's a setting in the program
you use to *connect* to the system on which you run trn.

How do I know? I'm using the same system, and the same newsreader!
But I see the degree sign. Because my connection has different settings.

>Now, in vi, it's reading 3 backslash-xc2 backslash-xb0.

That's actually the same for me. But once this posts, it'll be
back to a degree sign.

-- 
   David Goldfarb          |"You think just because there are more of you,
goldfarbdj@gmail.com       | that you have Groo outnumbered!  Groo will
goldfarb@ocf.berkeley.edu  | show you that you are wrong!" 
                           |                -- Groo the Wanderer

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#483886

David Goldfarb <goldfarb@ocf.berkeley.edu> wrote:
> In article <p1uGru.1H2I@kithrup.com>,
> Dorothy J Heydt <djheydt@kithrup.com> wrote:
>>In article <7400f980-7c11-4379-a598-2a90f80fe57e@googlegroups.com>,
>>Kevrob  <kevrob@my-deja.com> wrote:
>>>On Sunday, December 31, 2017 at 1:03:38 PM UTC-5, Kevrob wrote:
>>>
>>>> [For Keith: 14 F/-10 C.  May get down to 3\xc2\xb0 F/-16 C tonight.]
>>
>>>How did that degree sign not get extirpated?! :)
>>
>>And for me, for whom (as you know, Bob) trn does *not* do any of
>>those funny characters, I got 3 ctrl-A degree sign!
>
> Dorothy: trn has nothing to do with it. It's a setting in the program
> you use to *connect* to the system on which you run trn.
>
> How do I know? I'm using the same system, and the same newsreader!
> But I see the degree sign. Because my connection has different settings.
>
>>Now, in vi, it's reading 3 backslash-xc2 backslash-xb0.
>
> That's actually the same for me. But once this posts, it'll be
> back to a degree sign.

FWIW, the degree sign correctly renders in both tin and vi for me.
Because my terminal's character encoding is set to Unicode UTF-8.
    There's still a problem with unicode posts and followups that
originate from me. The degree gets munged up because my unicode posts
and followups need some additional work to iron out the bugs.

###

Garrett Wollman's handy command appended for my future reference.

iconv -f utf-8 -t iso8859-1


Thank you,

--
Don

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#483966

Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> wrote:

>Midwestern weather being what it is, folks
>often never used the front door in the winter unless company is calling.
>Wet and often muddy boots and sodden clothing made entering through the
>kitchen door, or into a "mud room" wiser. 

The house I grew up in had essentially a mud room at each door.  The
front door entered into a small lobby from which the stairs rose to
the second floor.  Because heat rises and there was no central heating
vent in that lobby and the door to the living room was always shut,
the front lobby was always very cold in the winter.

Anyhow, the front door was only for meeting SDA missionaries or other
salesmen.  The main door was at the side of the house.
-- 
We are geeks.  Resistance is voltage over current.

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#483974

On Tue, 02 Jan 2018 07:33:17 -0700, Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> wrote:

>Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
>>Midwestern weather being what it is, folks
>>often never used the front door in the winter unless company is calling.
>>Wet and often muddy boots and sodden clothing made entering through the
>>kitchen door, or into a "mud room" wiser. 
>
>The house I grew up in had essentially a mud room at each door.  The
>front door entered into a small lobby from which the stairs rose to
>the second floor.  Because heat rises and there was no central heating
>vent in that lobby and the door to the living room was always shut,
>the front lobby was always very cold in the winter.

I think you might be misusing "lobby" when you mean "foyer" or
"vestibule."

Not sure, though.

The house I grew up in had four exterior doors.  They all had a small
area inside for doffing muddy boots or whatever.  The ones at the
front and rear doors were vestibules; the one at the northwest door
was a mud room (basically, a larger vestibule), and the south door
opened into a small hallway lined with coathooks that we called "the
kitchen hall" because it opened into the kitchen.  We wouldn't ever
have considered anything in a private home to be a lobby.

>Anyhow, the front door was only for meeting SDA missionaries or other
>salesmen.  The main door was at the side of the house.


-- 
My webpage is at http://www.watt-evans.com
My latest novel is Tom Derringer in the Tunnels of Terror.
See http://www.watt-evans.com/TomDerringerintheTunnelsofTerror.shtml

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#483989

In article <d2qn4d14ctk3n005po6ls89vu2lmvf9mhk@reader80.eternal-september.org>,
Lawrence Watt-Evans  <misenchantedpress@gmail.com> wrote:

>The house I grew up in had four exterior doors.  They all had a small
>area inside for doffing muddy boots or whatever.  The ones at the
>front and rear doors were vestibules; the one at the northwest door
>was a mud room (basically, a larger vestibule), and the south door
>opened into a small hallway lined with coathooks that we called "the
>kitchen hall" because it opened into the kitchen.  We wouldn't ever
>have considered anything in a private home to be a lobby.

The house I grew up in (in Vermont) had three exterior doors.  We
moved in before it was finished, so we switched off doors depending on
what part of the house my father was working on -- but we never, ever
used the front door, which opened onto a steep terraced lawn with
about thirty steps down to the middle of the (steep) driveway.  Not
even when attempting to mow the lawn.

Once the garage was finished, we would use the back door -- which
communicated directly between a back deck and the family room -- for
outdoor activities like walking or skiing, and the garage door when
driving somewhere.  I can't exactly remember where the downstairs
closet was, but I think it was immediately opposite the stairs up from
the basement/garage.  (But I'm having trouble reconciling this with my
other memories of the layout of that house.)

My recollection of the traditional New England Colonial design is that
it was "four over four", with the ground-floor front entry opening
onto the stairs to the second level, with the dining room to one side,
the parlor to the other, and the kitchen in the rear.  You might have
a "front hall" or "foyer", but in the very earliest designs there was
no floor space wasted on hallways.  Bedrooms were of course upstairs.

-GAWollman
-- 
Garrett A. Wollman    | "Act to avoid constraining the future; if you can,
wollman@bimajority.org| act to remove constraint from the future.  This is
Opinions not shared by| a thing you can do, are able to do, to do together."
my employers.         | - Graydon Saunders, _A Succession of Bad Days_ (2015)

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#484017

On Tue, 2 Jan 2018 22:14:37 +0000 (UTC), wollman@bimajority.org
(Garrett Wollman) wrote:

>In article <d2qn4d14ctk3n005po6ls89vu2lmvf9mhk@reader80.eternal-september.org>,
>Lawrence Watt-Evans  <misenchantedpress@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>The house I grew up in had four exterior doors.  They all had a small
>>area inside for doffing muddy boots or whatever.  The ones at the
>>front and rear doors were vestibules; the one at the northwest door
>>was a mud room (basically, a larger vestibule), and the south door
>>opened into a small hallway lined with coathooks that we called "the
>>kitchen hall" because it opened into the kitchen.  We wouldn't ever
>>have considered anything in a private home to be a lobby.
>
>The house I grew up in (in Vermont) had three exterior doors.  We
>moved in before it was finished, so we switched off doors depending on
>what part of the house my father was working on -- but we never, ever
>used the front door, which opened onto a steep terraced lawn with
>about thirty steps down to the middle of the (steep) driveway.  Not
>even when attempting to mow the lawn.

We used our front door a lot, but I'm aware not everyone does.

>My recollection of the traditional New England Colonial design is that
>it was "four over four", with the ground-floor front entry opening
>onto the stairs to the second level, with the dining room to one side,
>the parlor to the other, and the kitchen in the rear.  You might have
>a "front hall" or "foyer", but in the very earliest designs there was
>no floor space wasted on hallways.  Bedrooms were of course upstairs.

That depends when it was built and how much money the family had, and
how much it was modified by later generations.

Our house in Massachusetts was built in 1851, drastically expanded and
modernized in 1881, modified somewhat in 1927, and tinkered with by my
parents in 1958-1961.  We had a front vestibule that was added in 1881
to support the new tower.  It was about four feet between the inner
and outer doors, and about ten feet wide, with boot racks on either
side.  That opened into the front hall, where stairs led to the second
floor, the parlor was on the left, the drawing room on the right, and
beside the stairs was a passage that originally led to the dining room
(behind the parlor) and the mud room, which was below the landing at
the top of the main stair.  The 1927 remodel had blocked off the mud
room, though, so you had to go around through either the dining room
or the drawing room to get to it.

The door to the outside from the mud room was the original back door,
but because of the later changes we very rarely used it.

The kitchen had originally been a separate building out back, due to
fire hazard, but the 1881 expansion had replaced it with an attached
kitchen behind the dining room.  (There was probably an ell connecting
the kitchen to the main house from 1851 to 1881, since New England is
fuckin' cold in the winter, but that was also replaced.)

Between the kitchen and dining room, where the original structure
connected to the addition, we had a pantry and two shallow,
back-to-back china closets, so there had to be a hallway to get past
those; that hallway was lined with hooks on one side, and on the other
was the south door opening onto a porch.  The original porch there was
a very spiffy Victorian thing, going by old pictures, but the 1927
remodel had converted it to a plain and ugly screened porch.

At the back of the kitchen was a scullery, built-in icebox (where the
iceman could load in ice without coming into the house), a back stair
going up to the maid's room, the stairs to the cellar, and the rear
vestibule that led out to the back porch, all part of the 1881
modernization.  We used that back door a lot because the back porch
was next to the top of the driveway and handy to the barn.

So -- two vestibules, a mud room, and a hallway for the four doors.



-- 
My webpage is at http://www.watt-evans.com
My latest novel is Tom Derringer in the Tunnels of Terror.
See http://www.watt-evans.com/TomDerringerintheTunnelsofTerror.shtml

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