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A call to drop gnome

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  A call to drop gnome Keith Bainbridge <ke1th3216@gmail.com> - 2019-04-16 09:20 +0200
    Re: A call to drop gnome Reco <recoverym4n@enotuniq.net> - 2019-04-16 09:50 +0200
      Re: A call to drop gnome Gian Uberto Lauri <saint@eng.it> - 2019-04-16 12:40 +0200
        Re: A call to drop gnome Reco <recoverym4n@enotuniq.net> - 2019-04-16 13:10 +0200
          Re: A call to drop gnome Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2019-04-16 15:40 +0200
            Re: A call to drop gnome Reco <recoverym4n@enotuniq.net> - 2019-04-16 16:00 +0200
              Re: A call to drop gnome Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2019-04-16 16:20 +0200
              Re: A call to drop gnome Matthew Crews <mailinglists@mattcrews.com> - 2019-04-16 19:00 +0200
                Re: A call to drop gnome Reco <recoverym4n@enotuniq.net> - 2019-04-16 19:40 +0200
                  Re: A call to drop gnome Matthew Crews <mattcrews@mattcrews.com> - 2019-04-16 20:00 +0200
                    Re: A call to drop gnome Stephan Seitz <stse+debian@fsing.rootsland.net> - 2019-04-16 20:30 +0200
                      Re: A call to drop gnome Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2019-04-16 21:20 +0200
                    Re: A call to drop gnome as the default desktop Keith Bainbridge <ke1th3216@gmail.com> - 2019-04-17 07:00 +0200
                      Re: A call to drop gnome as the default desktop Ansgar Burchardt <"Ansgar Burchardt"@43-1.org> - 2019-04-17 09:50 +0200
                        Re: A call to drop gnome as the default desktop Keith Bainbridge <ke1th3216@gmail.com> - 2019-04-18 06:40 +0200
                    Re: A call to drop gnome Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2019-04-17 09:50 +0200
                  Re: A call to drop gnome Matthew Crews <mailinglists@mattcrews.com> - 2019-04-16 20:00 +0200
                    Re: A call to drop gnome Reco <recoverym4n@enotuniq.net> - 2019-04-16 20:30 +0200
                      Re: A call to drop gnome Gian Uberto Lauri <saint@eng.it> - 2019-04-17 09:20 +0200
                        Re: A call to drop gnome Reco <recoverym4n@enotuniq.net> - 2019-04-17 10:10 +0200
                    Re: A call to drop gnome "Alexander V. Makartsev" <avbetev@gmail.com> - 2019-04-16 20:50 +0200
                Re: A call to drop gnome Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2019-04-16 20:50 +0200
                  Re: A call to drop gnome Francisco M Neto <fmneto@fmneto.com.br> - 2019-04-17 02:20 +0200
                Re: A call to drop gnome Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2019-04-16 21:00 +0200
            Re: A call to drop gnome Ansgar Burchardt <"Ansgar Burchardt"@43-1.org> - 2019-04-16 20:00 +0200
              Re: A call to drop gnome Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2019-04-16 21:20 +0200
                Re: A call to drop gnome Ansgar Burchardt <"Ansgar Burchardt"@43-1.org> - 2019-04-17 09:40 +0200
                  Re: A call to drop gnome Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2019-04-17 10:00 +0200
              Re: A call to drop gnome rhkramer@gmail.com - 2019-04-17 21:20 +0200
                Re: A call to drop gnome Keith Bainbridge <ke1th3216@gmail.com> - 2019-04-18 05:50 +0200
            Re: A call to drop gnome songbird <songbird@anthive.com> - 2019-04-17 15:10 +0200
              Re: A call to drop gnome Jimmy Johnson <field.engineer@gmail.com> - 2019-04-19 05:00 +0200
                Re: A call to drop gnome songbird <songbird@anthive.com> - 2019-04-19 05:50 +0200
                Re: A call to drop gnome Peter Ehlert <pb21a@sdi-baja.com> - 2019-04-19 07:20 +0200
          Re: A call to drop gnome Reco <recoverym4n@enotuniq.net> - 2019-04-16 16:10 +0200
            Re: A call to drop gnome Keith Bainbridge <ke1th3216@gmail.com> - 2019-04-17 06:20 +0200
              Re: A call to drop gnome Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2019-04-17 09:20 +0200
          Re: A call to drop gnome Keith Bainbridge <ke1th3216@gmail.com> - 2019-04-17 06:00 +0200
        Re: A call to drop gnome Keith Bainbridge <ke1th3216@gmail.com> - 2019-04-17 05:50 +0200
          Re: A call to drop gnome Ric Moore <wayward4now@gmail.com> - 2019-04-17 22:50 +0200
      Re: A call to drop gnome Dekks Herton <dekkzz78@gmail.com> - 2019-04-17 02:30 +0200
    Re: A call to drop gnome Andy Smith <andy@strugglers.net> - 2019-04-16 10:00 +0200
      Re: A call to drop gnome Gian Uberto Lauri <saint@eng.it> - 2019-04-16 12:50 +0200
    Re: A call to drop gnome <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2019-04-16 10:10 +0200
    Re: A call to drop gnome Jude DaShiell <jdashiel@panix.com> - 2019-04-16 13:40 +0200
    Re: A call to drop gnome mick crane <mick.crane@gmail.com> - 2019-04-16 16:50 +0200
      Re: A call to drop gnome Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2019-04-16 17:00 +0200
        Re: A call to drop gnome Reco <recoverym4n@enotuniq.net> - 2019-04-16 18:50 +0200
    Re: A call to drop gnome Patrick Bartek <nemommxiv@gmail.com> - 2019-04-17 01:40 +0200
      Re: A call to drop gnome Keith Bainbridge <ke1th3216@gmail.com> - 2019-04-17 10:00 +0200
    Re: A call to drop gnome 황병희 <soyeomul@red-october.yw.doraji.xyz> - 2019-04-17 17:20 +0200
      Re: A call to drop gnome Kenneth Parker <sea7kenp@gmail.com> - 2019-04-17 18:10 +0200

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#207532 — A call to drop gnome

Good afternoon


I've copied 2 bits from the discussion on synaptic and adding my 2 bobs' 
worth towards the next review of whether gnome remains the default desktop.



On 15/4/19 9:31 pm, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:> Because GNOME. GNOME's 
upstream said their word loud and clear, and that
 > word is - 'thou shall use Wayland for it is our favorite toy now'.



On 16/4/19 12:23 am, Jonathan Dowland wrote:>
 > The decision to ship GNOME as the default desktop is regularly
 > revisited: And
 > if a future GNOME release dropped X support altogether, you can be sure
 > that
 > would be a factor in the re-evaluation that would follow.


I've never been a fan of gnome, and I can only say that in the beginning 
it was simply because I didn't yet know about themes etc. I settled for 
KDE, in the 1990's.  I now know that it was the slowest of all, but I 
found my way around easiest.

I changed desktops several times over the years, settling on Mate since 
about 2014.

I'm always looking for a better way, so gave gnome a run. It lasted 
until I found that I am not meant to be able to put the tool-bar where I 
like it. It is possible, but...........   Smacks of os/x desktop; some 
flexibility, but not everything is changeable. (Gore, even MS allows me 
to move the tool-bar.)

Now Tomas quips about gnome is insisting that we like a new video 
process, just because the team have decided to like it lots.

I say this is NOT freedom.

Of course new users accept the defaults on a fresh install - I guess 
that like me 20 years ago, they presume the defaults will work best.


So, I am asking that gnome be dropped as an installation option (not 
just as the default desktop) until they encourage freedom. Will I ever 
try it again when it is a truly free?  Probably - in the name of looking 
for a better way.  Never know - there maybe something that changes my 
computing life totally.


By the bye, it's 16:52, and Autumn in my back yard. There are leaves all 
over our footpaths.


-- 
Keith Bainbridge

ke1th3216@gmail.com
+61 (0)447 667 468

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#207535

	Hi.

On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 04:54:02PM +1000, Keith Bainbridge wrote:
> On 15/4/19 9:31 pm, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:> Because GNOME. GNOME's upstream
> said their word loud and clear, and that
> > word is - 'thou shall use Wayland for it is our favorite toy now'.

I wrote it, in reply to Thomas e-mail. Please watch who you quote.


> Now Tomas quips about gnome is insisting that we like a new video process,
> just because the team have decided to like it lots.

No. What I wrote that for several years you had the possibility to run
GNOME on Wayland. And it will be the default in the next stable Debian.
Because (and here you're correct) - upstream wants that everyone use the
GNOME that way.

You have the ability to run GNOME over X. For now. I predicted that such
ability may disappear in unspecified future (probably - years). Because
GNOME upstream is (in)famous for feature removal.


> I say this is NOT freedom.

The usual arguments apply.
Don't like it - patch it. Patches are welcome. They have the commit bit
- you do not. Etc.
And yes, there are some who did exactly that - Mate DE, Cinnamon DE to
name a few examples.


> So, I am asking that gnome be dropped as an installation option (not
> just as the default desktop) until they encourage freedom.

There's an appropriate place for such wishes, it's called
https://bugs.debian.org.

Reco

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#207545

>>>>> "R" == Reco  <recoverym4n@enotuniq.net> writes:

R> No. What I wrote that for several years you had the possibility to
R> run GNOME on Wayland. And it will be the default in the next stable
R> Debian.  Because (and here you're correct) - upstream wants that
R> everyone use the GNOME that way.

As long as using X is supported without requiring triple backward
sommersault to install it, fine. Almost fine. Because HW support stuff
should be independent from the user front end.

>> I say this is NOT freedom.

R> The usual arguments apply.  Don't like it - patch it. Patches are
R> welcome. 

Say, "can you translate Odissey from ancient greek to Rovigo dialect?"

That is a petty example (if you can, my kudos!), patching is not a
thing this easy to do. You have to be a programmer good enought, then
you have to understando how the program works and how to change
it. Then you have to write the changes and possibly test it against
existing test cases, it requires skills, it requires time.

Gnome goal is noble, to let unskilled users use it. But there are
other users, not this unskilled but lacking, who knows, time and
wishing nevertheless that some option was available, say, running
WindowMaker on top of Gnome daemons. And for those there should be at
least a good document about doing it. And not leaving them being
forced to do something like a "triple backward sommersault" for doing
these changes.

This is more a "distribution level" choice, like "install Debian
Desktop something like a (better and improved) 1999 machine", at
least with the configuration working the old way.

It is not easy, it requires resources too. But these are my two cents.

-- 
 /\           ___                                    Ubuntu: ancient
/___/\_|_|\_|__|___Gian Uberto Lauri_____               African word
  //--\| | \|  |   Integralista GNUslamico            meaning "I can
\/                 coltivatore diretto di software       not install
     già sistemista a tempo (altrui) perso...                Debian"

Warning: gnome-config-daemon considered more dangerous than GOTO

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#207547

	Hi.

On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 10:38:38AM +0000, Gian Uberto Lauri wrote:
> >>>>> "R" == Reco  <recoverym4n@enotuniq.net> writes:

I *have* to object to this ☺ In C this comparison equals false.
Have you meant '"R" = Reco' (i.e. assignment)?


> R> No. What I wrote that for several years you had the possibility to
> R> run GNOME on Wayland. And it will be the default in the next stable
> R> Debian.  Because (and here you're correct) - upstream wants that
> R> everyone use the GNOME that way.
> 
> As long as using X is supported without requiring triple backward
> sommersault to install it, fine. Almost fine. Because HW support stuff
> should be independent from the user front end.

As we saw two weeks ago, the decision to run GNOME on Wayland backfired
at synaptic. To rephrase, why bother running X if there are no
applications left to run on X?


> >> I say this is NOT freedom.
> 
> R> The usual arguments apply.  Don't like it - patch it. Patches are
> R> welcome. 
> 
> Say, "can you translate Odissey from ancient greek to Rovigo dialect?"

Nope. But I can pay to someone who does, assuming that I want such
translation. Same as everyone else.


> That is a petty example (if you can, my kudos!), patching is not a
> thing this easy to do. You have to be a programmer good enought, then
> you have to understando how the program works and how to change
> it. Then you have to write the changes and possibly test it against
> existing test cases, it requires skills, it requires time.

... and there are those who did it already. But then again, for me GNOME
project went off-rails (usability POV, not a technical one) long time
ago. Patching the GNOME to restore sane behaviour is harder than
avoiding it.


> Gnome goal is noble, to let unskilled users use it.

I recall hearing similar rhetoric 25 years ago. Some Operating System
who's name starts with big W, and it had 4-color flag for logo. Some
say that rise in popularity of said OS involved an unspecified amount of
unconventional off-market negotiations and a bag of dirty tricks.


> But there are other users, not this unskilled but lacking, who knows,
> time and wishing nevertheless that some option was available, say,
> running WindowMaker on top of Gnome daemons.

A neat idea BTW.


> And for those there should be at least a good document about doing
> it.

Agreed.


> And not leaving them being forced to do something like a "triple
> backward sommersault" for doing these changes.

The way things go right now with the GNOME all those impressive tricks
will be obsolete. Unless, of course, some kind soul moves that "sway"
thing from the experimental to sid.
Because AFAIK there are only four "Wayland window managers" (it's
techically incorrect to call them that, I know), and only two of them
made into buster so far (GNOME's mutter and weston, the reference one).

Reco

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#207554

On Tuesday 16 April 2019 07:01:25 Reco wrote:

> 	Hi.
>
> On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 10:38:38AM +0000, Gian Uberto Lauri wrote:
> > >>>>> "R" == Reco  <recoverym4n@enotuniq.net> writes:
>
> I *have* to object to this ☺ In C this comparison equals false.
> Have you meant '"R" = Reco' (i.e. assignment)?
>
> > R> No. What I wrote that for several years you had the possibility
> > to R> run GNOME on Wayland. And it will be the default in the next
> > stable R> Debian.  Because (and here you're correct) - upstream
> > wants that R> everyone use the GNOME that way.
> >
> > As long as using X is supported without requiring triple backward
> > sommersault to install it, fine. Almost fine. Because HW support
> > stuff should be independent from the user front end.

Agreed.

> As we saw two weeks ago, the decision to run GNOME on Wayland
> backfired at synaptic. To rephrase, why bother running X if there are
> no applications left to run on X?

I think that must be in the back of their minds. But that is something 
you never ever tell the frogs.

> > >> I say this is NOT freedom.

So do I.

> > R> The usual arguments apply.  Don't like it - patch it. Patches are
> > R> welcome.

I wondered how long it would take for that phrase to emerge, so everyone 
in a position of control can hide behind it yet again.

> > Say, "can you translate Odissey from ancient greek to Rovigo
> > dialect?"
>
> Nope. But I can pay to someone who does, assuming that I want such
> translation. Same as everyone else.
>
> > That is a petty example (if you can, my kudos!), patching is not a
> > thing this easy to do. You have to be a programmer good enought,
> > then you have to understando how the program works and how to change
> > it. Then you have to write the changes and possibly test it against
> > existing test cases, it requires skills, it requires time.
>
> ... and there are those who did it already. But then again, for me
> GNOME project went off-rails (usability POV, not a technical one) long
> time ago. Patching the GNOME to restore sane behaviour is harder than
> avoiding it.

+1000!

Where the heck in its confusing menu's can I find a tab supporting 
terminal so I can get something done? Go ahead, find it, my coffee needs 
to cool anyway..

> > Gnome goal is noble, to let unskilled users use it.
>
> I recall hearing similar rhetoric 25 years ago. Some Operating System
> who's name starts with big W, and it had 4-color flag for logo. Some
> say that rise in popularity of said OS involved an unspecified amount
> of unconventional off-market negotiations and a bag of dirty tricks.

We all heard the same "sermon" and ran like hell because we already were 
familiar with both their market controlling efforts and this same bag of 
dirty tricks a bar of good soap has little effect because you simply 
cannot make them palatable in a free market.

I see Linus is drifting back to his older style, issuing the desktop 
people a whipping they are in need of over the weekend, saying 90% of 
why linux doesn't control the desktop is that there is not a 
standardized, one size fits all because it can do all things desktop. 

> > But there are other users, not this unskilled but lacking, who
> > knows, time and wishing nevertheless that some option was available,
> > say, running WindowMaker on top of Gnome daemons.
>
> A neat idea BTW.
>
> > And for those there should be at least a good document about doing
> > it.
>
> Agreed.

+10 or more.

> > And not leaving them being forced to do something like a "triple
> > backward sommersault" for doing these changes.
>
> The way things go right now with the GNOME all those impressive tricks
> will be obsolete. Unless, of course, some kind soul moves that "sway"
> thing from the experimental to sid.
> Because AFAIK there are only four "Wayland window managers" (it's
> techically incorrect to call them that, I know), and only two of them
> made into buster so far (GNOME's mutter and weston, the reference
> one).
>
> Reco

I'm not advocating that TDE is THAT desired standardized desktop, but so 
far it its  given me the tools to get the job done AND ITS STABLE. TDE 
is a fork of kde at the 3.5 level, with litterally thousands of its bugs 
fixed, something KDE has steadfastly refused to do unless it outright 
crashed the machine in the life of KDE since 1.0.

So let me say this: If I can't run a desktop I am familiar with, AND 
productive with, because wayland won't run it, theres always mke2fs.

This is still wheezy, because except for firefox, it Just Works.  Theres 
another 2T drive with the latest stretch installed on it in this machine 
and I was in the process of moving my stuff to it with the intention of 
updating to Buster when it was declared stable. That came to a 
screeching halt when I read that synaptic was gone from buster. What I 
do next is still open for discussion. 3 of the 4 other machine tool 
driving machines on my network are also on wheezy, with the 4th, an 
r-pi-3b running a 3/4 ton lathe, running jessie, poorly. Good, realtime 
kernels and armhf are not on the best of terms, yet I get power failure 
to power failure uptimes.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>

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#207556

	Hi.

On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 09:35:32AM -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > > R> The usual arguments apply.  Don't like it - patch it. Patches are
> > > R> welcome.
> 
> I wondered how long it would take for that phrase to emerge, so everyone 
> in a position of control can hide behind it yet again.
> 
> > > Say, "can you translate Odissey from ancient greek to Rovigo
> > > dialect?"
> >
> > Nope. But I can pay to someone who does, assuming that I want such
> > translation. Same as everyone else.
> >
> > > That is a petty example (if you can, my kudos!), patching is not a
> > > thing this easy to do. You have to be a programmer good enought,
> > > then you have to understando how the program works and how to change
> > > it. Then you have to write the changes and possibly test it against
> > > existing test cases, it requires skills, it requires time.
> >
> > ... and there are those who did it already. But then again, for me
> > GNOME project went off-rails (usability POV, not a technical one) long
> > time ago. Patching the GNOME to restore sane behaviour is harder than
> > avoiding it.
> 
> +1000!

Um, Gene. You are aware that I wrote both arguments, are you?


> > > Gnome goal is noble, to let unskilled users use it.
> >
> > I recall hearing similar rhetoric 25 years ago. Some Operating System
> > who's name starts with big W, and it had 4-color flag for logo. Some
> > say that rise in popularity of said OS involved an unspecified amount
> > of unconventional off-market negotiations and a bag of dirty tricks.
> 
> We all heard the same "sermon" and ran like hell because we already were 
> familiar with both their market controlling efforts and this same bag of 
> dirty tricks a bar of good soap has little effect because you simply 
> cannot make them palatable in a free market.
> 
> I see Linus is drifting back to his older style, issuing the desktop 
> people a whipping they are in need of over the weekend, saying 90% of 
> why linux doesn't control the desktop is that there is not a 
> standardized, one size fits all because it can do all things desktop. 

A link please, LKML will suffice. If Linus is back after that CoC story
in all his former glory - I need to see this.

Reco

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#207558

On Tuesday 16 April 2019 09:54:19 Reco wrote:

> 	Hi.
>
> On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 09:35:32AM -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > > > R> The usual arguments apply.  Don't like it - patch it. Patches
> > > > are R> welcome.
> >
> > I wondered how long it would take for that phrase to emerge, so
> > everyone in a position of control can hide behind it yet again.
> >
> > > > Say, "can you translate Odissey from ancient greek to Rovigo
> > > > dialect?"
> > >
> > > Nope. But I can pay to someone who does, assuming that I want such
> > > translation. Same as everyone else.
> > >
> > > > That is a petty example (if you can, my kudos!), patching is not
> > > > a thing this easy to do. You have to be a programmer good
> > > > enought, then you have to understando how the program works and
> > > > how to change it. Then you have to write the changes and
> > > > possibly test it against existing test cases, it requires
> > > > skills, it requires time.
> > >
> > > ... and there are those who did it already. But then again, for me
> > > GNOME project went off-rails (usability POV, not a technical one)
> > > long time ago. Patching the GNOME to restore sane behaviour is
> > > harder than avoiding it.
> >
> > +1000!
>
> Um, Gene. You are aware that I wrote both arguments, are you?

I thought it was a bit odd, but so many are using broken quoting, so I 
shrugged it off.
>
> > > > Gnome goal is noble, to let unskilled users use it.
> > >
> > > I recall hearing similar rhetoric 25 years ago. Some Operating
> > > System who's name starts with big W, and it had 4-color flag for
> > > logo. Some say that rise in popularity of said OS involved an
> > > unspecified amount of unconventional off-market negotiations and a
> > > bag of dirty tricks.
> >
> > We all heard the same "sermon" and ran like hell because we already
> > were familiar with both their market controlling efforts and this
> > same bag of dirty tricks a bar of good soap has little effect
> > because you simply cannot make them palatable in a free market.
> >
> > I see Linus is drifting back to his older style, issuing the desktop
> > people a whipping they are in need of over the weekend, saying 90%
> > of why linux doesn't control the desktop is that there is not a
> > standardized, one size fits all because it can do all things
> > desktop.
>
> A link please, LKML will suffice. If Linus is back after that CoC
> story in all his former glory - I need to see this.
>
> Reco

I got unsubbed from lkml a couple years back for "interference". Seems 
like I read it on /. 2, maybe 3 days back. I don't think I'd call it 
former glory, but some leakage and frustration are quite evident. He was 
IMO. overdoing the nice guy bit just a bit. He needs to add a bit more 
iron to his control. I see the lack of that over the last year as being 
partially responsible for this present bruhaha. Or maybe thats just me?  
Your call. :)

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>

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#207567

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

On 4/16/19 6:54 AM, Reco wrote:
>> I see Linus is drifting back to his older style, issuing the desktop 
>> people a whipping they are in need of over the weekend, saying 90% of 
>> why linux doesn't control the desktop is that there is not a 
>> standardized, one size fits all because it can do all things desktop. 
> 
> A link please, LKML will suffice. If Linus is back after that CoC story
> in all his former glory - I need to see this.

Old news. He posted two days ago about Linux Kernel 5.1-rc5:

https://lkml.org/lkml/2019/4/14/265


As far as Gnome on Wayland, X.org's days are numbered, and for good reason.

The major DEs are all pushing for the move to Wayland, but they continue
to support X because Wayland isn't fully ready. However it cannot be
made ready unless people are actually using it in the wild, and
submitting feedback.

Additionally, every major Linux distro supports Wayland, provided their
chosen DE supports Wayland. Some major ones even USE Wayland by default
where possible. It will not be long before X is deprecated, and then
fully removed.

This all stems back to Synaptic being removed from Debian Buster right?
Well, all someone needs to do is update Synaptic with proper Wayland
support. But judging by the upstream development, it appears that
Synaptic might be abandoned?

https://launchpad.net/synaptic

Well, it's maintained by an Ubuntu developer, and Ubuntu doesn't even
ship Synaptic anymore.

All the same, hardly a reason to drop Gnome.

My 2¢

-Matt

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#207570

	Hi.

On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 06:54:00PM +0200, Matthew Crews wrote:
> On 4/16/19 6:54 AM, Reco wrote:
> >> I see Linus is drifting back to his older style, issuing the desktop 
> >> people a whipping they are in need of over the weekend, saying 90% of 
> >> why linux doesn't control the desktop is that there is not a 
> >> standardized, one size fits all because it can do all things desktop. 
> > 
> > A link please, LKML will suffice. If Linus is back after that CoC story
> > in all his former glory - I need to see this.
> 
> Old news. He posted two days ago about Linux Kernel 5.1-rc5:
> 
> https://lkml.org/lkml/2019/4/14/265

Nah, that's not Linus. A double, probably.
I mean, there's the expression? Colorful language? Some profanity, at
the very least?


> As far as Gnome on Wayland, X.org's days are numbered, and for good reason.

And now it gets interesting.


> The major DEs are all pushing for the move to Wayland,

All two of them, I assume?


> but they continue to support X because Wayland isn't fully ready.

Ok.


> However it cannot be made ready unless people are actually using it in
> the wild, and submitting feedback.

That's understandable. I mean, code tests and Continuous Integration are
for the cowards, right? Real developers test their code on users. Both
GNOME and KDE are famous in this regard.


> Additionally, every major Linux distro supports Wayland, provided their
> chosen DE supports Wayland.

[Carefully looks at Debian 9, Ubuntu 18.10 and RHEL 7.5].
Sure. That's why they're offering X by default. To test Wayland. That's
a really cunning plan.


> Some major ones even USE Wayland by default where possible.

[Scratches head] SUSE? Surely that's what you meant?


> It will not be long before X is deprecated, and then
> fully removed.

All these sentences, but I failed to see this "good reason" of yours.


> This all stems back to Synaptic being removed from Debian Buster right?

In this particular thread we discuss a wish of a Debian User, who in no
uncertain terms expressed that GNOME should be dropped from the Debian.
I mean, look at the Subject.


> Well, all someone needs to do is update Synaptic with proper Wayland
> support.

And the reason for this being exactly what?


> But judging by the upstream development, it appears that
> Synaptic might be abandoned?

$ x-www-browser https://packages.debian.org/source/sid/synaptic
$ git clone --depth=1 https://github.com/mvo5/synaptic
$ cd synaptic
$ git log
commit 449180d2d1abbd49e113d882e8b9b6387321c4fa
Author: Michael Vogt <mvo@ubuntu.com>
Date:   Mon Apr 15 11:14:51 2019 +0200

Nope, looks alive to me.

Reco

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#207573

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On 4/16/19 10:36 AM, Reco wrote:
>> The major DEs are all pushing for the move to Wayland,
> 
> All two of them, I assume?

Call me lazy, but I'm not going to cite every article under the Sun
explaining why we *should* be moving to Wayland over X. Here are a few
starting points.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wayland_%28display_server_protocol%29
https://wayland.freedesktop.org/

In the end it comes down to Wayland will be the future way of doing
things, and there are headaches along the way.

I will concede that as long as Nvidia drivers do not play nicely with
Wayland (and they don't AFAIK), X will still be required. But I did just
read that Plasma 5.16 landed Nvidia patches that let it work under
Wayland with Nvidia, so maybe not that much longer in the future?

(and unfortunately, people will still buy and use Nvidia cards, and want
support for them whether or not the drivers are FOSS).

>> Some major ones even USE Wayland by default where possible.
> 
> [Scratches head] SUSE? Surely that's what you meant?

Off the top of my head, Fedora, SUSE and Ubuntu (as of 18.10) use
Wayland by default.

>> This all stems back to Synaptic being removed from Debian Buster right?
> 
> In this particular thread we discuss a wish of a Debian User, who in no
> uncertain terms expressed that GNOME should be dropped from the Debian.
> I mean, look at the Subject.

Fair enough. I personally think KDE or even XFCE should be the default
DE for Debian, but thats just my opinion and the the topic of endless
debate. We will be in circles debating what we think the default DE for
Debian should be. As long as the Debian installer gives us a choice (and
as long as a variety of Live images for each major DE are available), it
doesn't really matter in the end.

I do not think that Gnome should be removed from Debian as long as Gnome
works fine. As far as I'm concerned, it does work fine. Perfect? No, but
good enough IMO.

On this mailing list, though, I could see a progression from "why is
synaptic removed from Debian Buster?" to "Lets remove Gnome", hence why
I brought it up.

> Nope, looks alive to me.

Noted, thanks for the correction.

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#207579

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On Di, Apr 16, 2019 at 07:53:40 +0200, Matthew Crews wrote:
>Off the top of my head, Fedora, SUSE and Ubuntu (as of 18.10) use
>Wayland by default.

I thought Ubuntu dropped Wayland and returned to X11?

Concerning Wayland: as long as it doesn’t have some kind of X11 
forwarding feature (easy to use with „ssh -X”), it’s useless for me.

Shade and sweet water!

	Stephan

-- 
| Public Keys: http://fsing.rootsland.net/~stse/keys.html |

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#207590

On Tuesday 16 April 2019 14:13:31 Stephan Seitz wrote:

> On Di, Apr 16, 2019 at 07:53:40 +0200, Matthew Crews wrote:
> >Off the top of my head, Fedora, SUSE and Ubuntu (as of 18.10) use
> >Wayland by default.
>
> I thought Ubuntu dropped Wayland and returned to X11?
>
> Concerning Wayland: as long as it doesn’t have some kind of X11
> forwarding feature (easy to use with „ssh -X”), it’s useless for me.
>
Precisely...

> Shade and sweet water!
>
> 	Stephan


Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>

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#207614 — Re: A call to drop gnome as the default desktop

On 17/4/19 3:53 am, Matthew Crews wrote:
> As long as the Debian installer gives us a choice (and
> as long as a variety of Live images for each major DE are available), it
> doesn't really matter in the end.
> 
> I do not think that Gnome should be removed from Debian as long as Gnome
> works fine. As far as I'm concerned, it does work fine. Perfect? No, but
> good enough IMO.
> 
> On this mailing list, though, I could see a progression from "why is
> synaptic removed from Debian Buster?" to "Lets remove Gnome", hence why
> I brought it up.

I'll address these in reverse order, hoping to make the responses make 
some sense.

Let me say only that I used a couple of snips from the synaptic 
discussion as support for my own thoughts about gnome not being free 
software - in the sense that they seem to want to control how we use our 
monitors.

I see the point that people who like gnome should be allowed to use it - 
so withdraw the drop gnome from debian.  I believe the change to the 
subject line will keep the discussion together. I'll re-send if it opens 
a new topic.


Perhaps gnome can be available as a live distro and in the repo - 
without being an option on the netInstall.iso  I accept that gnome is 
popular, and figured that by seeking to drop it, I am trying to remove 
their freedom to use it.


-- 
Keith Bainbridge

ke1th3216@gmail.com
+61 (0)447 667 468

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#207626 — Re: A call to drop gnome as the default desktop

Keith Bainbridge writes:
> I see the point that people who like gnome should be allowed to use it
> - 
> so withdraw the drop gnome from debian.  I believe the change to the
> subject line will keep the discussion together. I'll re-send if it
> opens a new topic.

Why should GNOME not stay the default desktop?  Because it supports
using either of Wayland or X11?

To quote your original mail this was one of the two main reasons you
proposed GNOME to be dropped after all (besides not being able to move
some toolbar):

| [...] gnome is insisting that we like a new video process, just
| because the team have decided to like it lots.
|
| I say this is NOT freedom.

How is supporting *only* X11 freedom, but supporting *both* Wayland and
X11 NOT freedom?

Wouldn't it be more logical to drop all desktop environments that
support *only* X11 to give more freedom?

Ansgar

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#207667 — Re: A call to drop gnome as the default desktop

On 17/4/19 5:26 pm, Ansgar Burchardt wrote:
> Keith Bainbridge writes:
>> I see the point that people who like gnome should be allowed to use it
>> -
>> so withdraw the drop gnome from debian.  I believe the change to the
>> subject line will keep the discussion together. I'll re-send if it
>> opens a new topic.
> 
> Why should GNOME not stay the default desktop?  Because it supports
> using either of Wayland or X11?
> 
> To quote your original mail this was one of the two main reasons you
> proposed GNOME to be dropped after all (besides not being able to move
> some toolbar):
> 
> | [...] gnome is insisting that we like a new video process, just
> | because the team have decided to like it lots.
> |
> | I say this is NOT freedom.
> 
> How is supporting *only* X11 freedom, but supporting *both* Wayland and
> X11 NOT freedom?
> 
> Wouldn't it be more logical to drop all desktop environments that
> support *only* X11 to give more freedom?
> 
> Ansgar
> 

Ansgar

The snips in my original post were other peoples' quotes. I used them to 
support my reason to claim that gnome does not allow users who can't 
write very high level code, at least one option that I consider 
important. It is this extreme difficulty to do what is simple elsewhere 
that I am calling out - it is NOT freedom.


If I wanted to try Wayland I'd have to accept the restrictions that come 
with it. I recall that one live .iso I tried, offered it as an option. 
That was so long ago that I forget if I get around to trying it - maybe 
early last year, like Feb, with pre-release ubuntu 18.04.   It wouldn't 
really count anyway, as it was in vbox.

Hence, I relented from my position of removing gnome from debian; I 
accepted that I was denying those who wanted it, the option.


I felt a twinge when I read that Wayland needs testers; but I run 
developer versions of office and Firefox and similar Thunderbird as my 
contribution to testing. I'd answer more questions here, but clearly 
most users here know more than I do.   (perhaps the questions about 
super key were tongue in cheek?)

I also drew some comfort from people who said end users shouldn't be 
guinea pigs.


I think that it's ironical that I use a desktop that was gnome just a 
couple of years ago.


-- 
Keith Bainbridge

ke1th3216@gmail.com
+61 (0)447 667 468

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#207625

On 2019-04-16, Matthew Crews <mattcrews@mattcrews.com> wrote:
>
> On this mailing list, though, I could see a progression from "why is
> synaptic removed from Debian Buster?" to "Lets remove Gnome", hence why
> I brought it up.

You saw an obvious troll post supported by a large party of one and
decided to run with it, in point of fact.

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#207575

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On 4/16/19 10:36 AM, Reco wrote:
>> The major DEs are all pushing for the move to Wayland,
> 
> All two of them, I assume?

Call me lazy, but I'm not going to cite every article under the Sun
explaining why we *should* be moving to Wayland over X. Here are a few
starting points.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wayland_%28display_server_protocol%29
https://wayland.freedesktop.org/

In the end it comes down to Wayland will be the future way of doing
things, and there are headaches along the way.

I will concede that as long as Nvidia drivers do not play nicely with
Wayland (and they don't AFAIK), X will still be required. But I did just
read that Plasma 5.16 landed Nvidia patches that let it work under
Wayland with Nvidia, so maybe not that much longer in the future?

(and unfortunately, people will still buy and use Nvidia cards, and want
support for them whether or not the drivers are FOSS).

>> Some major ones even USE Wayland by default where possible.
> 
> [Scratches head] SUSE? Surely that's what you meant?

Off the top of my head, Fedora, SUSE and Ubuntu (as of 18.10) use
Wayland by default.

>> This all stems back to Synaptic being removed from Debian Buster right?
> 
> In this particular thread we discuss a wish of a Debian User, who in no
> uncertain terms expressed that GNOME should be dropped from the Debian.
> I mean, look at the Subject.

Fair enough. I personally think KDE or even XFCE should be the default
DE for Debian, but thats just my opinion and the the topic of endless
debate. We will be in circles debating what we think the default DE for
Debian should be. As long as the Debian installer gives us a choice (and
as long as a variety of Live images for each major DE are available), it
doesn't really matter in the end.

I do not think that Gnome should be removed from Debian as long as Gnome
works fine. As far as I'm concerned, it does work fine. Perfect? No, but
good enough IMO.

On this mailing list, though, I could see a progression from "why is
synaptic removed from Debian Buster?" to "Lets remove Gnome", hence why
I brought it up.

> Nope, looks alive to me.

Noted, thanks for the correction.

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#207578

On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 07:54:18PM +0200, Matthew Crews wrote:
> I will concede that as long as Nvidia drivers do not play nicely with
> Wayland (and they don't AFAIK), X will still be required.

That's very simplistic point of view.
What about Wayland on non-x86, like ARM or MIPS (a hint - it does not
work there, X does)?
Or, for example, whatever they put instead of videocards in servers
these days. Before you ask - I personally saw people putting X on
servers.
Or, something deceptively simple. Debian 10 in QEMU running Wayland.


> But I did just read that Plasma 5.16 landed Nvidia patches that let it
> work under Wayland with Nvidia, so maybe not that much longer in the
> future?

That's just scratching the surface of it. Contrary to the popular
option, video card world does not ends at Intel, AMD and Nvidia.


> (and unfortunately, people will still buy and use Nvidia cards, and want
> support for them whether or not the drivers are FOSS).
> 
> >> Some major ones even USE Wayland by default where possible.
> > 
> > [Scratches head] SUSE? Surely that's what you meant?
> 
> Off the top of my head, Fedora, SUSE and Ubuntu (as of 18.10) use
> Wayland by default.

Ok, I stand corrected.


> >> This all stems back to Synaptic being removed from Debian Buster right?
> > 
> > In this particular thread we discuss a wish of a Debian User, who in no
> > uncertain terms expressed that GNOME should be dropped from the Debian.
> > I mean, look at the Subject.
> 
> Fair enough. I personally think KDE or even XFCE should be the default
> DE for Debian, but thats just my opinion and the the topic of endless
> debate.

I see no debate. GNOME is a primary DE for Debian on i386 and amd64 for
now, and had been for many years, barring that XFCE hiccup back in 2010
(only sid was affected).


> We will be in circles debating what we think the default DE for
> Debian should be. As long as the Debian installer gives us a choice (and
> as long as a variety of Live images for each major DE are available), it
> doesn't really matter in the end.

[Carefully looks at synaptic] Does it?


> I do not think that Gnome should be removed from Debian as long as Gnome
> works fine. As far as I'm concerned, it does work fine. Perfect? No, but
> good enough IMO.

Such trolling topics are a rare source of pure entertainment here.
I do not take them seriously, YMMV.


> On this mailing list, though, I could see a progression from "why is
> synaptic removed from Debian Buster?" to "Lets remove Gnome", hence why
> I brought it up.

Different topics, different OPs. Mostly the same participants, sure.

Reco

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#207622

>>>>> "R" == Reco  <recoverym4n@enotuniq.net> writes:

R> That's very simplistic point of view.  What about Wayland on
R> non-x86, like ARM or MIPS (a hint - it does not work there, X
R> does)?

MIPS (Silicon Graphics), SPARC (Sun)...


-- 
 /\           ___                                    Ubuntu: ancient
/___/\_|_|\_|__|___Gian Uberto Lauri_____               African word
  //--\| | \|  |   Integralista GNUslamico            meaning "I can
\/                 coltivatore diretto di software       not install
     già sistemista a tempo (altrui) perso...                Debian"

Warning: gnome-config-daemon considered more dangerous than GOTO

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#207629

On Wed, Apr 17, 2019 at 07:11:52AM +0000, Gian Uberto Lauri wrote:
> >>>>> "R" == Reco  <recoverym4n@enotuniq.net> writes:
> 
> R> That's very simplistic point of view.  What about Wayland on
> R> non-x86, like ARM or MIPS (a hint - it does not work there, X
> R> does)?
> 
> MIPS (Silicon Graphics), SPARC (Sun)...

A good point. I have sparc64 server with this:

https://pci-ids.ucw.cz/read/PC/1a03/2000

Reco

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