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Re: A call to drop gnome

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	Hi.

On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 10:38:38AM +0000, Gian Uberto Lauri wrote:
> >>>>> "R" == Reco  <recoverym4n@enotuniq.net> writes:

I *have* to object to this ☺ In C this comparison equals false.
Have you meant '"R" = Reco' (i.e. assignment)?


> R> No. What I wrote that for several years you had the possibility to
> R> run GNOME on Wayland. And it will be the default in the next stable
> R> Debian.  Because (and here you're correct) - upstream wants that
> R> everyone use the GNOME that way.
> 
> As long as using X is supported without requiring triple backward
> sommersault to install it, fine. Almost fine. Because HW support stuff
> should be independent from the user front end.

As we saw two weeks ago, the decision to run GNOME on Wayland backfired
at synaptic. To rephrase, why bother running X if there are no
applications left to run on X?


> >> I say this is NOT freedom.
> 
> R> The usual arguments apply.  Don't like it - patch it. Patches are
> R> welcome. 
> 
> Say, "can you translate Odissey from ancient greek to Rovigo dialect?"

Nope. But I can pay to someone who does, assuming that I want such
translation. Same as everyone else.


> That is a petty example (if you can, my kudos!), patching is not a
> thing this easy to do. You have to be a programmer good enought, then
> you have to understando how the program works and how to change
> it. Then you have to write the changes and possibly test it against
> existing test cases, it requires skills, it requires time.

... and there are those who did it already. But then again, for me GNOME
project went off-rails (usability POV, not a technical one) long time
ago. Patching the GNOME to restore sane behaviour is harder than
avoiding it.


> Gnome goal is noble, to let unskilled users use it.

I recall hearing similar rhetoric 25 years ago. Some Operating System
who's name starts with big W, and it had 4-color flag for logo. Some
say that rise in popularity of said OS involved an unspecified amount of
unconventional off-market negotiations and a bag of dirty tricks.


> But there are other users, not this unskilled but lacking, who knows,
> time and wishing nevertheless that some option was available, say,
> running WindowMaker on top of Gnome daemons.

A neat idea BTW.


> And for those there should be at least a good document about doing
> it.

Agreed.


> And not leaving them being forced to do something like a "triple
> backward sommersault" for doing these changes.

The way things go right now with the GNOME all those impressive tricks
will be obsolete. Unless, of course, some kind soul moves that "sway"
thing from the experimental to sid.
Because AFAIK there are only four "Wayland window managers" (it's
techically incorrect to call them that, I know), and only two of them
made into buster so far (GNOME's mutter and weston, the reference one).

Reco

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Thread

A call to drop gnome Keith Bainbridge <ke1th3216@gmail.com> - 2019-04-16 09:20 +0200
  Re: A call to drop gnome Reco <recoverym4n@enotuniq.net> - 2019-04-16 09:50 +0200
    Re: A call to drop gnome Gian Uberto Lauri <saint@eng.it> - 2019-04-16 12:40 +0200
      Re: A call to drop gnome Reco <recoverym4n@enotuniq.net> - 2019-04-16 13:10 +0200
        Re: A call to drop gnome Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2019-04-16 15:40 +0200
          Re: A call to drop gnome Reco <recoverym4n@enotuniq.net> - 2019-04-16 16:00 +0200
            Re: A call to drop gnome Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2019-04-16 16:20 +0200
            Re: A call to drop gnome Matthew Crews <mailinglists@mattcrews.com> - 2019-04-16 19:00 +0200
              Re: A call to drop gnome Reco <recoverym4n@enotuniq.net> - 2019-04-16 19:40 +0200
                Re: A call to drop gnome Matthew Crews <mattcrews@mattcrews.com> - 2019-04-16 20:00 +0200
                Re: A call to drop gnome Stephan Seitz <stse+debian@fsing.rootsland.net> - 2019-04-16 20:30 +0200
                Re: A call to drop gnome Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2019-04-16 21:20 +0200
                Re: A call to drop gnome as the default desktop Keith Bainbridge <ke1th3216@gmail.com> - 2019-04-17 07:00 +0200
                Re: A call to drop gnome as the default desktop Ansgar Burchardt <"Ansgar Burchardt"@43-1.org> - 2019-04-17 09:50 +0200
                Re: A call to drop gnome as the default desktop Keith Bainbridge <ke1th3216@gmail.com> - 2019-04-18 06:40 +0200
                Re: A call to drop gnome Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2019-04-17 09:50 +0200
                Re: A call to drop gnome Matthew Crews <mailinglists@mattcrews.com> - 2019-04-16 20:00 +0200
                Re: A call to drop gnome Reco <recoverym4n@enotuniq.net> - 2019-04-16 20:30 +0200
                Re: A call to drop gnome Gian Uberto Lauri <saint@eng.it> - 2019-04-17 09:20 +0200
                Re: A call to drop gnome Reco <recoverym4n@enotuniq.net> - 2019-04-17 10:10 +0200
                Re: A call to drop gnome "Alexander V. Makartsev" <avbetev@gmail.com> - 2019-04-16 20:50 +0200
              Re: A call to drop gnome Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2019-04-16 20:50 +0200
                Re: A call to drop gnome Francisco M Neto <fmneto@fmneto.com.br> - 2019-04-17 02:20 +0200
              Re: A call to drop gnome Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2019-04-16 21:00 +0200
          Re: A call to drop gnome Ansgar Burchardt <"Ansgar Burchardt"@43-1.org> - 2019-04-16 20:00 +0200
            Re: A call to drop gnome Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2019-04-16 21:20 +0200
              Re: A call to drop gnome Ansgar Burchardt <"Ansgar Burchardt"@43-1.org> - 2019-04-17 09:40 +0200
                Re: A call to drop gnome Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2019-04-17 10:00 +0200
            Re: A call to drop gnome rhkramer@gmail.com - 2019-04-17 21:20 +0200
              Re: A call to drop gnome Keith Bainbridge <ke1th3216@gmail.com> - 2019-04-18 05:50 +0200
          Re: A call to drop gnome songbird <songbird@anthive.com> - 2019-04-17 15:10 +0200
            Re: A call to drop gnome Jimmy Johnson <field.engineer@gmail.com> - 2019-04-19 05:00 +0200
              Re: A call to drop gnome songbird <songbird@anthive.com> - 2019-04-19 05:50 +0200
              Re: A call to drop gnome Peter Ehlert <pb21a@sdi-baja.com> - 2019-04-19 07:20 +0200
        Re: A call to drop gnome Reco <recoverym4n@enotuniq.net> - 2019-04-16 16:10 +0200
          Re: A call to drop gnome Keith Bainbridge <ke1th3216@gmail.com> - 2019-04-17 06:20 +0200
            Re: A call to drop gnome Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2019-04-17 09:20 +0200
        Re: A call to drop gnome Keith Bainbridge <ke1th3216@gmail.com> - 2019-04-17 06:00 +0200
      Re: A call to drop gnome Keith Bainbridge <ke1th3216@gmail.com> - 2019-04-17 05:50 +0200
        Re: A call to drop gnome Ric Moore <wayward4now@gmail.com> - 2019-04-17 22:50 +0200
    Re: A call to drop gnome Dekks Herton <dekkzz78@gmail.com> - 2019-04-17 02:30 +0200
  Re: A call to drop gnome Andy Smith <andy@strugglers.net> - 2019-04-16 10:00 +0200
    Re: A call to drop gnome Gian Uberto Lauri <saint@eng.it> - 2019-04-16 12:50 +0200
  Re: A call to drop gnome <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2019-04-16 10:10 +0200
  Re: A call to drop gnome Jude DaShiell <jdashiel@panix.com> - 2019-04-16 13:40 +0200
  Re: A call to drop gnome mick crane <mick.crane@gmail.com> - 2019-04-16 16:50 +0200
    Re: A call to drop gnome Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2019-04-16 17:00 +0200
      Re: A call to drop gnome Reco <recoverym4n@enotuniq.net> - 2019-04-16 18:50 +0200
  Re: A call to drop gnome Patrick Bartek <nemommxiv@gmail.com> - 2019-04-17 01:40 +0200
    Re: A call to drop gnome Keith Bainbridge <ke1th3216@gmail.com> - 2019-04-17 10:00 +0200
  Re: A call to drop gnome 황병희 <soyeomul@red-october.yw.doraji.xyz> - 2019-04-17 17:20 +0200
    Re: A call to drop gnome Kenneth Parker <sea7kenp@gmail.com> - 2019-04-17 18:10 +0200

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