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[OT] Relavant mailing list or USENET group

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  [OT] Relavant mailing list or USENET group Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2017-12-02 18:20 +0100
    Re: [OT] Relavant mailing list or USENET group rhkramer@gmail.com - 2017-12-02 19:10 +0100
      Re: [OT] Relavant mailing list or USENET group Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2017-12-02 20:20 +0100
        Re: [OT] Relavant mailing list or USENET group David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2017-12-02 20:40 +0100
          Re: [OT] Relavant mailing list or USENET group John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2017-12-02 21:00 +0100
            Re: [OT] Relavant mailing list or USENET group David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2017-12-02 23:10 +0100
              Re: [OT] Relavant mailing list or USENET group John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2017-12-03 02:20 +0100
                Re: [OT] Relavant mailing list or USENET group Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2017-12-03 14:10 +0100
            Re: [OT] Relavant mailing list or USENET group Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2017-12-03 14:00 +0100
              Re: [OT] Relavant mailing list or USENET group The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2017-12-03 14:30 +0100
                Re: [OT] Relavant mailing list or USENET group Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2017-12-03 16:30 +0100
                  Back to the question [Re: [OT] Relavant mailing list or USENET group] Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2017-12-03 16:50 +0100
                    Re: Back to the question [Re: [OT] Relavant mailing list or USENET group] rhkramer@gmail.com - 2017-12-03 17:20 +0100
              Re: [OT] Relavant mailing list or USENET group Tom Furie <tom@furie.org.uk> - 2017-12-03 14:40 +0100
                Re: [OT] Relavant mailing list or USENET group Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2017-12-03 16:20 +0100
                  Re: [OT] Relavant mailing list or USENET group Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2017-12-03 21:50 +0100
                    Re: [OT] Relavant mailing list or USENET group Richard Hector <richard@walnut.gen.nz> - 2017-12-05 04:40 +0100
          Re: [OT] Relavant mailing list or USENET group Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2017-12-03 13:30 +0100
            Re: [OT] Relavant mailing list or USENET group John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2017-12-03 14:10 +0100
              Re: [OT] Relavant mailing list or USENET group Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2017-12-03 16:20 +0100
              Re: [OT] Relavant mailing list or USENET group Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2017-12-04 03:50 +0100
                Re: [OT] Relavant mailing list or USENET group John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2017-12-04 05:30 +0100
                  Re: [OT] Relavant mailing list or USENET group Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2017-12-04 07:50 +0100
                    Re: [OT] Relavant mailing list or USENET group <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2017-12-04 09:30 +0100
                    Re: [OT] Relavant mailing list or USENET group John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2017-12-04 14:50 +0100
        Re: [OT] Relavant mailing list or USENET group Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2017-12-02 21:10 +0100
          Re: [OT] Relavant mailing list or USENET group Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2017-12-03 14:30 +0100
    Re: [OT] Relavant mailing list or USENET group Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2017-12-03 11:10 +0100
      Re: [OT] Relavant mailing list or USENET group Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2017-12-03 15:20 +0100
    Re: [OT] Relavant mailing list or USENET group Ben Finney <bignose@debian.org> - 2017-12-03 11:20 +0100
      Re: [OT] Relavant mailing list or USENET group Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2017-12-03 15:30 +0100
        Re: [OT] Relavant mailing list or USENET group David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2017-12-04 01:30 +0100
          Re: [OT] Relavant mailing list or USENET group Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2017-12-04 05:00 +0100
            Re: [OT] Relavant mailing list or USENET group The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2017-12-04 05:40 +0100
        Re: [OT] Relavant mailing list or USENET group Ben Finney <bignose@debian.org> - 2017-12-04 09:00 +0100
    Re: [OT] Relavant mailing list or USENET group Eric S Fraga <e.fraga@ucl.ac.uk> - 2017-12-04 12:10 +0100
      Re: [OT] Relavant mailing list or USENET group Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2017-12-05 17:30 +0100
        Re: [OT] Relavant mailing list or USENET group Eric S Fraga <e.fraga@ucl.ac.uk> - 2017-12-05 20:10 +0100
          Re: [OT] Relavant mailing list or USENET group Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2017-12-05 22:00 +0100
            Re: [OT] Relavant mailing list or USENET group Eric S Fraga <e.fraga@ucl.ac.uk> - 2017-12-06 07:50 +0100
              Re: [OT] Relavant mailing list or USENET group Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net> - 2017-12-06 12:00 +0100
                Re: [OT] Relavant mailing list or USENET group Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2017-12-06 12:30 +0100
                Re: [OT] Relavant mailing list or USENET group Richard Hector <richard@walnut.gen.nz> - 2017-12-06 12:40 +0100
                  Re: [OT] Relavant mailing list or USENET group Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2017-12-06 14:40 +0100

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#189476 — [OT] Relavant mailing list or USENET group

This is part of my search for a LINUX PDA. [1] [2]

Those threads and Raspberry Pi links have been educational and have 
firmed up my goals {e.g. There is no longer a strong preference for an
x86 processor}. A Raspberry Pi has attractive features for some future 
unrelated projects {physical form factor makes it unsuitable for now}.

In previous posts I've wrote of _current_ application. That was a 
mistake as it encouraged some to ignore my specifications and suggest 
"one-off" solutions. {I've been looking for a similar device for 
approximately a decade ;}


It must:
1. be currently available from U.S. retail vendor.
2. have a physical form factor similar to a "smartphone".
    [Latest releases tend to be uncomfortably large.
     Maximum viable size 8" x 5".]
3. run Linux (prefer Debian) without restriction for replacing
    delivered OS.
4. have touchscreen display.
5. be able to read/write a USB flash drive.
6. *NOT* be a "smartphone".

Any suggestions for a suitable mailing list or USENET group.
TIA

[1] Handhelds that conveniently run Debian
https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2017/11/msg00256.html

[2] Wanted - a Debian handheld
https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2017/11/msg00351.html

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#189477

On Saturday, December 02, 2017 12:17:39 PM Richard Owlett wrote:
> 6. *NOT* be a "smartphone".

Well, I am curious about why you don't want it to be a smartphone, and whether 
doing something like removing the SIM from a cell phone (and possibly epoxying 
the socket) would meet your needs?

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#189479

On 12/02/2017 12:02 PM, rhkramer@gmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, December 02, 2017 12:17:39 PM Richard Owlett wrote:
>> 6. *NOT* be a "smartphone".
>
> Well, I am curious about why you don't want it to be a smartphone,
> and whether doing something like removing the SIM from a cell phone
> (and possibly epoxying the socket) would meet your needs?
>

You might say it's the 3 P's ;/
[ Philosophical Practicality Prudence ]

Philosophical - application of Linux philosophy
  > As stated by McIlroy, and generally accepted throughout the Unix 
community, Unix programs have always been expected to follow the concept 
of DOTADIW, or "Do One Thing and Do It Well."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unix_philosophy#Do_One_Thing_and_Do_It_Well

Practicality - avoidance of Android
Most "smartphones" come only with Android which presumes someone who has 
never met the user knows best what the user needs (let alone wants) and 
then goes to great lengths to prevent the end user from installing a 
suitable OS.

Practicality - possible regulatory constraints
~50 years ago I held a commercial operators license from the FCC and 
later in RFI suppression and type acceptance (FCC & VDE). I've read 
recent posts of a so called "SOS mode" active even when sim is removed. 
I don't know how onerous compliance would be -- *NOT* interested in 
wasting time and effort to pursue.

P.S. I have been described as "PERSISTENT" <chuckle;>

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#189482

On Sat 02 Dec 2017 at 13:17:14 (-0600), Richard Owlett wrote:
> On 12/02/2017 12:02 PM, rhkramer@gmail.com wrote:
> >On Saturday, December 02, 2017 12:17:39 PM Richard Owlett wrote:
> >>6. *NOT* be a "smartphone".
> >
> >Well, I am curious about why you don't want it to be a smartphone,
> >and whether doing something like removing the SIM from a cell phone
> >(and possibly epoxying the socket) would meet your needs?
> >
> 
> You might say it's the 3 P's ;/
> [ Philosophical Practicality Prudence ]
> 
> Philosophical - application of Linux philosophy
>  > As stated by McIlroy, and generally accepted throughout the Unix
> community, Unix programs have always been expected to follow the
> concept of DOTADIW, or "Do One Thing and Do It Well."
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unix_philosophy#Do_One_Thing_and_Do_It_Well
> 
> Practicality - avoidance of Android
> Most "smartphones" come only with Android which presumes someone who
> has never met the user knows best what the user needs (let alone
> wants) and then goes to great lengths to prevent the end user from
> installing a suitable OS.
> 
> Practicality - possible regulatory constraints
> ~50 years ago I held a commercial operators license from the FCC and
> later in RFI suppression and type acceptance (FCC & VDE). I've read
> recent posts of a so called "SOS mode" active even when sim is
> removed. I don't know how onerous compliance would be -- *NOT*
> interested in wasting time and effort to pursue.
> 
> P.S. I have been described as "PERSISTENT" <chuckle;>

Consideration of smartphones seems to be going round in circles:

https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2017/11/msg00266.html
https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2017/11/msg00271.html

So let me ask a slightly different question. Given

2. have a physical form factor similar to a "smartphone".
6. *NOT* be a "smartphone".

what would be the principal use of this device, who would
it be aimed at, and what would be the size of its market?

Cheers,
David.

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#189483

David Wright writes:
> what would be the principal use of this device, who would it be aimed
> at, and what would be the size of its market?

I'd buy one were it cheap enough (it wouldn't be).
-- 
John Hasler 
jhasler@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

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#189487

On Sat 02 Dec 2017 at 13:52:41 (-0600), John Hasler wrote:
> David Wright writes:
> > what would be the principal use of this device, who would it be aimed
> > at, and what would be the size of its market?
> 
> I'd buy one were it cheap enough (it wouldn't be).

Well, I just might¹. But I'm afraid your reply doesn't actually
address any of those three questions.

¹ With no real keyboard, I'm not convinced. (Speaking as someone
who has never yet laid out actual dosh for a computer.)

Cheers,
David.

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#189491

David Wright writes:
> what would be the principal use of this device, who would it be aimed
> at, and what would be the size of its market?

I wrote:
> I'd buy one were it cheap enough (it wouldn't be).

David Wright writes:
> Well, I just might¹. But I'm afraid your reply doesn't actually
> address any of those three questions.

It says that one group it might be aimed at is people who are like me
except for having a bit more money.
-- 
John Hasler 
jhasler@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

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#189506

On 12/02/2017 07:18 PM, John Hasler wrote:
> David Wright writes:
>> what would be the principal use of this device, who would it be aimed
>> at, and what would be the size of its market?
>
> I wrote:
>> I'd buy one were it cheap enough (it wouldn't be).
>
> David Wright writes:
>> Well, I just might¹. But I'm afraid your reply doesn't actually
>> address any of those three questions.
>
> It says that one group it might be aimed at is people who are like me
> except for having a bit more money.
>

Consider some statistical data:
   1. In consumer market Linux is only one OS of many.
   2. Debian is a smaller market than all of Linux.
   3. What fraction of Debian users participate in any thread?

It has been demonstrated that at least two potential customers in a 
rather small sample.

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#189504

On 12/02/2017 01:52 PM, John Hasler wrote:
> David Wright writes:
>> what would be the principal use of this device, who would it be aimed
>> at, and what would be the size of its market?
>
> I'd buy one were it cheap enough (it wouldn't be).
>

I don't see why its price structure be more than a laptop or 
"smartphone". It should be less than a "smartphone" offering similar 
compute capability.

The per unit manufacturing costs should be lower - fewer parts, fewer 
assembly steps.
There would be less ongoing engineering costs - e.g. when 3G/4G becomes 
obsolete.
Product lifetime should be longer.

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#189508

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

On 2017-12-03 at 07:57, Richard Owlett wrote:

> On 12/02/2017 01:52 PM, John Hasler wrote:
> 
>> David Wright writes:

>>> what would be the principal use of this device, who would it be
>>> aimed at, and what would be the size of its market?
>> 
>> I'd buy one were it cheap enough (it wouldn't be).
> 
> I don't see why its price structure be more than a laptop or 
> "smartphone". It should be less than a "smartphone" offering similar
>  compute capability.

Supply and demand.

Not enough people care about "a device with the physical form factor of
a smartphone, which is not a smartphone" for it to be economical to sell
such at a price which will not seem exorbitant by comparison with the
price of a smartphone.

-- 
   The Wanderer

The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all
progress depends on the unreasonable man.         -- George Bernard Shaw

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#189514

On 12/03/2017 07:26 AM, The Wanderer wrote:
> Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
>        -- George Bernard Shaw
>

Who me?

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#189515 — Back to the question [Re: [OT] Relavant mailing list or USENET group]

On 12/03/2017 09:19 AM, Richard Owlett wrote:
> On 12/03/2017 07:26 AM, The Wanderer wrote:
>> Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
>>        -- George Bernard Shaw
>> > Any suggestions for a suitable mailing list or USENET group.
>
> Who me?

Having met Shaw's definition and functionality of an "unreasonable man",
can we get back to MY question?
> Any suggestions for a suitable mailing list or USENET group?

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#189516 — Re: Back to the question [Re: [OT] Relavant mailing list or USENET group]

On Sunday, December 03, 2017 10:42:12 AM Richard Owlett wrote:
> > Any suggestions for a suitable mailing list or USENET group?

Try  
"Eco-Conscious Computing" <arm-netbook@lists.phcomp.co.uk>

I'm not exactly clear about what they are working towards, but even if it 
doesn't meet your needs they may have suggestions for other lists to try.

BTW, I don't see the problem with a tablet with the radio disabled (in 
hardware, or, at least, firmware).  BTW, if a device has WiFi access it can 
"interact" with cell phone users (by text or voice).

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#189509

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

On Sun, Dec 03, 2017 at 06:57:30AM -0600, Richard Owlett wrote:
> On 12/02/2017 01:52 PM, John Hasler wrote:
> >David Wright writes:
> >>what would be the principal use of this device, who would it be aimed
> >>at, and what would be the size of its market?
> >
> >I'd buy one were it cheap enough (it wouldn't be).
> >
> 
> I don't see why its price structure be more than a laptop or "smartphone".
> It should be less than a "smartphone" offering similar compute capability.
> 
> The per unit manufacturing costs should be lower - fewer parts, fewer
> assembly steps.
> There would be less ongoing engineering costs - e.g. when 3G/4G becomes
> obsolete.
> Product lifetime should be longer.

It seems to me that you're looking for a tablet with optional keyboard
attachment.

If you want "off the shelf", the closest that immediately comes to mind
is something like a Microsoft Surface or similar.

For the amount of "DIY" involved, a Raspberry Pi - the Model 3B comes
with built in wifi - with touchscreen (available in several sizes) and
wireless keyboard and mouse would seem to fit the bill. It will of course
be bulkier, but I can't think of anything else appropriate.

Cheers,
Tom

-- 
He's dead, Jim.

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#189512

On 12/03/2017 07:35 AM, Tom Furie wrote:
> On Sun, Dec 03, 2017 at 06:57:30AM -0600, Richard Owlett wrote:
>> On 12/02/2017 01:52 PM, John Hasler wrote:
>>> David Wright writes:
>>>> what would be the principal use of this device, who would it be aimed
>>>> at, and what would be the size of its market?
>>>
>>> I'd buy one were it cheap enough (it wouldn't be).
>>>
>>
>> I don't see why its price structure be more than a laptop or "smartphone".
>> It should be less than a "smartphone" offering similar compute capability.
>>
>> The per unit manufacturing costs should be lower - fewer parts, fewer
>> assembly steps.
>> There would be less ongoing engineering costs - e.g. when 3G/4G becomes
>> obsolete.
>> Product lifetime should be longer.
>
> It seems to me that you're looking for a tablet with optional keyboard
> attachment.

Yes. I would probably not purchase a keyboard and instead would use one 
of my multiple USB connected keyboards.

>
> If you want "off the shelf", the closest that immediately comes to
> mind is something like a Microsoft Surface or similar.

Quick web search doesn't indicate if any meet my requirements as a
handheld. Linux is reported to be installable - "secure boot" problems 
need further research.
> 2. have a physical form factor similar to a "smartphone".
>    [Latest releases tend to be uncomfortably large.
>     Maximum viable size 8" x 5".]
Thickness requirement is still vague.

>
> For the amount of "DIY" involved, a Raspberry Pi - the Model 3B comes
> with built in wifi - with touchscreen (available in several sizes) and
> wireless keyboard and mouse would seem to fit the bill. It will of
> course be bulkier, but I can't think of anything else appropriate.

It seems power hungry. I suspect a Pi Zero has required compute power.
I've not yet found a matrix of what Pi components can work together nor 
what Pi cases are available from a U.S. source.


>
> Cheers,
> Tom
>

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#189525

On 12/03/2017 09:13 AM, Richard Owlett wrote:
> On 12/03/2017 07:35 AM, Tom Furie wrote:
>> [snip]
>>
>> If you want "off the shelf", the closest that immediately comes to
>> mind is something like a Microsoft Surface or similar.
>
> Quick web search doesn't indicate if any meet my requirements as a
> handheld. Linux is reported to be installable - "secure boot" problems
> need further research.
>> 2. have a physical form factor similar to a "smartphone".
>>    [Latest releases tend to be uncomfortably large.
>>     Maximum viable size 8" x 5".]
> Thickness requirement is still vague.
>

Unless you can refer me to a device with a screen size less than/equal 
to 5" diagonal, the product line is DOA.

I am however *IMPRESSED* with how far M$ has gone to allow desired OS's 
to be installed.

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#189568

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On 04/12/17 09:43, Richard Owlett wrote:
> On 12/03/2017 09:13 AM, Richard Owlett wrote:
>> On 12/03/2017 07:35 AM, Tom Furie wrote:
>>> [snip]
>>>
>>> If you want "off the shelf", the closest that immediately comes to
>>> mind is something like a Microsoft Surface or similar.
>>
>> Quick web search doesn't indicate if any meet my requirements as a
>> handheld. Linux is reported to be installable - "secure boot" problems
>> need further research.
>>> 2. have a physical form factor similar to a "smartphone".
>>>    [Latest releases tend to be uncomfortably large.
>>>     Maximum viable size 8" x 5".]
>> Thickness requirement is still vague.
>>
> 
> Unless you can refer me to a device with a screen size less than/equal
> to 5" diagonal, the product line is DOA.
> 
> I am however *IMPRESSED* with how far M$ has gone to allow desired OS's
> to be installed.

https://www.amazon.com/XD-DroidBOX-Handheld-Touchscreen-Mali-T764/dp/B01B4DH2QQ

Don't know if you'd get Debian on it ... or make a keyboard work with it ...

Richard

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#189503

On 12/02/2017 01:37 PM, David Wright wrote:
> On Sat 02 Dec 2017 at 13:17:14 (-0600), Richard Owlett wrote:
>> On 12/02/2017 12:02 PM, rhkramer@gmail.com wrote:
>>> On Saturday, December 02, 2017 12:17:39 PM Richard Owlett wrote:
>>>> 6. *NOT* be a "smartphone".
>>>
>>> Well, I am curious about why you don't want it to be a smartphone,
>>> and whether doing something like removing the SIM from a cell phone
>>> (and possibly epoxying the socket) would meet your needs?
>>>
>>
>> You might say it's the 3 P's ;/
>> [ Philosophical Practicality Prudence ]
>>
>> Philosophical - application of Linux philosophy
>>  > As stated by McIlroy, and generally accepted throughout the Unix
>> community, Unix programs have always been expected to follow the
>> concept of DOTADIW, or "Do One Thing and Do It Well."
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unix_philosophy#Do_One_Thing_and_Do_It_Well
>>
>> Practicality - avoidance of Android
>> Most "smartphones" come only with Android which presumes someone who
>> has never met the user knows best what the user needs (let alone
>> wants) and then goes to great lengths to prevent the end user from
>> installing a suitable OS.
>>
>> Practicality - possible regulatory constraints
>> ~50 years ago I held a commercial operators license from the FCC and
>> later in RFI suppression and type acceptance (FCC & VDE). I've read
>> recent posts of a so called "SOS mode" active even when sim is
>> removed. I don't know how onerous compliance would be -- *NOT*
>> interested in wasting time and effort to pursue.
>>
>> P.S. I have been described as "PERSISTENT" <chuckle;>
>
> Consideration of smartphones seems to be going round in circles:
>
> https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2017/11/msg00266.html
> https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2017/11/msg00271.html
>
> So let me ask a slightly different question. Given
>
> 2. have a physical form factor similar to a "smartphone".

A package of 3x5 cards meets that specification <snicker>
However its computational functionality and data storage are rather 
limited ;/

> 6. *NOT* be a "smartphone".

At a first pass not be what FCC describes as an "intentional radiator".
Not sure how much that applies to WiFi or Bluetooth, neither are of 
particular interest to me.

>
> what would be the principal use of this device,

Anything a laptop might be used for.
*PLUS* ANYTHING where small size is beneficial.

> who would it be aimed at,

Anyone who wants the compute power of Raspberry Pi/Beaglebone/etc who 
wishes to avoid mechanics of DIY.

> and what would be the size of its market?

Probably less than world population.
I.E. who knows?

>
> Cheers,
> David.
>
>

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#189505

Richard Owlett writes:
> 6. *NOT* be a "smartphone".

> At a first pass not be what FCC describes as an "intentional
> radiator".  Not sure how much that applies to WiFi or Bluetooth,
> neither are of particular interest to me.

Disabling the radio in a smartphone should be easy.
-- 
John Hasler 
jhasler@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

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#189513

On 12/03/2017 07:02 AM, John Hasler wrote:
> Richard Owlett writes:
>> 6. *NOT* be a "smartphone".
>
>> At a first pass not be what FCC describes as an "intentional
>> radiator".  Not sure how much that applies to WiFi or Bluetooth,
>> neither are of particular interest to me.
>
> Disabling the radio in a smartphone should be easy.
>

It doesn't belong there in 1st place.

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