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Groups > linux.debian.user > #244003 > unrolled thread
| Started by | Marco Möller <talby@debianlists.mobilxpress.net> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2022-01-15 11:30 +0100 |
| Last post | 2022-01-25 07:40 +0100 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 79 — 22 participants |
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Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? Marco Möller <talby@debianlists.mobilxpress.net> - 2022-01-15 11:30 +0100
Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? Andy Smith <andy@strugglers.net> - 2022-01-15 13:40 +0100
Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? Anders Andersson <pipatron@gmail.com> - 2022-01-16 17:20 +0100
Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? Pierre-Elliott Bécue <peb@debian.org> - 2022-01-16 22:40 +0100
Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? harryweaver@tutanota.com - 2022-01-17 01:10 +0100
Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? Pierre-Elliott Bécue <peb@debian.org> - 2022-01-17 23:20 +0100
Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? harryweaver@tutanota.com - 2022-01-17 23:30 +0100
Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? Nicholas Geovanis <nickgeovanis@gmail.com> - 2022-01-18 00:00 +0100
Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? Nicholas Geovanis <nickgeovanis@gmail.com> - 2022-01-18 00:10 +0100
Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? Pierre-Elliott Bécue <peb@debian.org> - 2022-01-18 00:10 +0100
Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? Marco Möller <talby@debianlists.mobilxpress.net> - 2022-01-22 14:00 +0100
Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2022-01-22 14:50 +0100
Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? songbird <songbird@anthive.com> - 2022-01-22 15:30 +0100
Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? Marco Möller <talby@debianlists.mobilxpress.net> - 2022-01-22 20:40 +0100
[SUMMARY STATEMENT] Was: Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? "Andrew M.A. Cater" <amacater@einval.com> - 2022-01-23 00:30 +0100
Re: [SUMMARY STATEMENT] Was: Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? Marco Möller <talby@debianlists.mobilxpress.net> - 2022-01-23 19:50 +0100
Re: [SUMMARY STATEMENT] Was: Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? local10 <local10@tutanota.com> - 2022-01-23 20:20 +0100
Re: [SUMMARY STATEMENT] Was: Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? Pierre-Elliott Bécue <peb@debian.org> - 2022-01-23 21:10 +0100
Re: [SUMMARY STATEMENT] Was: Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2022-01-23 21:10 +0100
Re: [SUMMARY STATEMENT] Was: Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> - 2022-01-23 21:20 +0100
Re: [SUMMARY STATEMENT] Was: Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? local10 <local10@tutanota.com> - 2022-01-23 21:40 +0100
Re: [SUMMARY STATEMENT] Was: Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? Jim Popovitch <jim@k4vqc.com> - 2022-01-23 21:50 +0100
Re: [SUMMARY STATEMENT] Was: Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? Pierre-Elliott Bécue <peb@debian.org> - 2022-01-23 23:00 +0100
Re: [SUMMARY STATEMENT] Was: Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? RP <reyadmin@gmail.com> - 2022-01-24 00:10 +0100
Re: [SUMMARY STATEMENT] Was: Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? local10 <local10@tutanota.com> - 2022-01-24 00:40 +0100
Re: [SUMMARY STATEMENT] Was: Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> - 2022-01-24 01:00 +0100
Re: [SUMMARY STATEMENT] Was: Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? local10 <local10@tutanota.com> - 2022-01-24 01:30 +0100
Re: [SUMMARY STATEMENT] Was: Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> - 2022-01-24 02:20 +0100
Re: [SUMMARY STATEMENT] Was: Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> - 2022-01-24 03:50 +0100
Re: [SUMMARY STATEMENT] Was: Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? deloptes <emanoil.kotsev@deloptes.org> - 2022-01-24 04:20 +0100
Re: [SUMMARY STATEMENT] Was: Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? deloptes <emanoil.kotsev@deloptes.org> - 2022-01-24 03:50 +0100
Re: [SUMMARY STATEMENT] Was: Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? Pierre-Elliott Bécue <peb@debian.org> - 2022-01-24 22:10 +0100
Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? deloptes <emanoil.kotsev@deloptes.org> - 2022-01-23 09:30 +0100
Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> - 2022-01-23 12:30 +0100
"Package was removed from Debian because of a variable name" myth (?) (was: Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian?) Andy Smith <andy@strugglers.net> - 2022-01-23 12:40 +0100
Re: "Package was removed from Debian because of a variable name" myth (?) (was: Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian?) Andy Smith <andy@strugglers.net> - 2022-01-23 13:00 +0100
Re: "Package was removed from Debian because of a variable name" myth (?) (was: Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian?) Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> - 2022-01-23 15:00 +0100
Re: "Package was removed from Debian because of a variable name" myth (?) (was: Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian?) Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> - 2022-01-23 21:00 +0100
Re: "Package was removed from Debian because of a variable name" myth (?) (was: Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian?) Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> - 2022-01-23 13:00 +0100
Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2022-01-23 11:10 +0100
Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? deloptes <emanoil.kotsev@deloptes.org> - 2022-01-23 11:40 +0100
Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> - 2022-01-23 11:50 +0100
Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? deloptes <emanoil.kotsev@deloptes.org> - 2022-01-23 12:20 +0100
Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? Charles Curley <charlescurley@charlescurley.com> - 2022-01-23 16:40 +0100
Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2022-01-23 17:10 +0100
Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? deloptes <emanoil.kotsev@deloptes.org> - 2022-01-23 11:10 +0100
Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? Pierre-Elliott Bécue <peb@debian.org> - 2022-01-23 11:20 +0100
Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? deloptes <emanoil.kotsev@deloptes.org> - 2022-01-23 11:40 +0100
Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? Pierre-Elliott Bécue <peb@debian.org> - 2022-01-23 13:00 +0100
Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? deloptes <emanoil.kotsev@deloptes.org> - 2022-01-23 13:50 +0100
Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? Andy Smith <andy@strugglers.net> - 2022-01-23 13:50 +0100
Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> - 2022-01-23 13:50 +0100
Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? deloptes <emanoil.kotsev@deloptes.org> - 2022-01-23 15:00 +0100
Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? Pierre-Elliott Bécue <peb@debian.org> - 2022-01-23 14:50 +0100
Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> - 2022-01-23 12:10 +0100
Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? "Andrew M.A. Cater" <amacater@einval.com> - 2022-01-23 15:00 +0100
Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> - 2022-01-23 21:10 +0100
Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2022-01-24 20:40 +0100
Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? RP <reyadmin@gmail.com> - 2022-01-24 20:50 +0100
Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> - 2022-01-25 00:30 +0100
Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? max <maxwillb@mailfence.com> - 2022-01-24 01:40 +0100
Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? RP <reyadmin@gmail.com> - 2022-01-24 01:50 +0100
Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> - 2022-01-24 02:30 +0100
Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> - 2022-01-24 03:50 +0100
Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? max <maxwillb@mailfence.com> - 2022-01-24 04:30 +0100
Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? max <maxwillb@mailfence.com> - 2022-01-24 03:50 +0100
Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2022-01-24 21:10 +0100
Re: Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? Norbert Preining <norbert@preining.info> - 2022-01-24 00:30 +0100
Re: Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? max <maxwillb@mailfence.com> - 2022-01-24 11:00 +0100
Re: Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? harryweaver@tutanota.com - 2022-01-24 11:10 +0100
Re: Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? deloptes <emanoil.kotsev@deloptes.org> - 2022-01-24 12:50 +0100
[CODE OF CONDUCT REMINDER - WAS Re: Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian?] "Andrew M.A. Cater" <amacater@einval.com> - 2022-01-24 18:00 +0100
Re: [CODE OF CONDUCT REMINDER - WAS Re: Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian?] Roberto C. Sánchez <roberto@debian.org> - 2022-01-24 18:40 +0100
Re: [CODE OF CONDUCT REMINDER - WAS Re: Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian?] Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> - 2022-01-24 19:10 +0100
Re: [CODE OF CONDUCT REMINDER - WAS Re: Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian?] RP <reyadmin@gmail.com> - 2022-01-24 19:10 +0100
Re: [CODE OF CONDUCT REMINDER - WAS Re: Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian?] Roberto C. Sánchez <roberto@debian.org> - 2022-01-24 19:10 +0100
Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? Pierre-Elliott Bécue <peb@pimeys.fr> - 2022-01-24 22:00 +0100
Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? Norbert Preining <norbert@preining.info> - 2022-01-25 01:30 +0100
Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? Pierre-Elliott Bécue <peb@debian.org> - 2022-01-25 07:40 +0100
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| From | Marco Möller <talby@debianlists.mobilxpress.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2022-01-15 11:30 +0100 |
| Subject | Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? |
| Message-ID | <DFOtP-3FA-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
Does somebody has information about what in the background has happened, which made Norbert leaving the team? Considering that Debian is a community project and myself feeling to be part of the community, although not actively involved in its maintenance and development, I am wondering what is going on in the community after his post from yesterday sounds like there are things happening in the community, which not all the community might be aware of. In his blog he wrote "After having been (again) demoted [...] based on flimsy arguments, I have been forced to rethink the level of contribution I want to do for Debian." https://www.preining.info/blog/2022/01/future-of-my-packages-in-debian/ I wish that someone could publish some background information, neutral and respectful and without harming anybody. I am absolutely not interested to start here in public a war of recriminations. I simply feel that it would be worth for the health of the community to get a more transparent view on what is going on in the community. Do you have some background information which you could share in PLEASE neutral, well thought text, serving the community and its transparency instead of rupturing it? Thanks, Marco.
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| From | Andy Smith <andy@strugglers.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2022-01-15 13:40 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <DFQvD-4Ri-5@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #244003 |
Hello, On Sat, Jan 15, 2022 at 11:28:54AM +0100, Marco Möller wrote: > https://www.preining.info/blog/2022/01/future-of-my-packages-in-debian/ > > I wish that someone could publish some background information, neutral and > respectful and without harming anybody. If Norbert himself did not elaborate then how would it be possible to publish personal information about him in a "neutral and respectful" manner? Debian has disciplinary procedures like any community and the public are not automatically entitled to all of the details of those. I don't know why you assume you should be. Norbert has obviously been subject to some sort of disciplinary action and as a result says he is winding down his efforts within Debian. If he wanted the general public to know more about that then surely he would have said more. Perhaps you can ask him? Your wish can only be properly fulfilled by Norbert. Maybe you just want someone to collate already-public information about this? Having read Norbert's blogs before over the past few years, I feel sure that looking back through his prior posts regarding Debian would give you some idea as to where the points of contention have existed for him (unless he has deleted them; have not checked). Thanks, Andy -- https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting
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| From | Anders Andersson <pipatron@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2022-01-16 17:20 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <DGgq5-4Dv-5@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #244003 |
On Sat, Jan 15, 2022 at 11:29 AM Marco Möller <talby@debianlists.mobilxpress.net> wrote: > > Does somebody has information about what in the background has happened, > which made Norbert leaving the team? > Considering that Debian is a community project and myself feeling to be > part of the community, although not actively involved in its maintenance > and development, I am wondering what is going on in the community after > his post from yesterday sounds like there are things happening in the > community, which not all the community might be aware of. > In his blog he wrote "After having been (again) demoted [...] based on > flimsy arguments, I have been forced to rethink the level of > contribution I want to do for Debian." > https://www.preining.info/blog/2022/01/future-of-my-packages-in-debian/ > > I wish that someone could publish some background information, neutral > and respectful and without harming anybody. I am absolutely not > interested to start here in public a war of recriminations. I simply > feel that it would be worth for the health of the community to get a > more transparent view on what is going on in the community. > Do you have some background information which you could share in PLEASE > neutral, well thought text, serving the community and its transparency > instead of rupturing it? > Thanks, Marco. I read a few of the comments on the blog you linked to, and he replies to one comment: "No there is no public record (for now), as all happened on debian-private. In due time I will document the whole process, since I have access to all of debian-private until recently. Time to show what really went on." Maybe you just have to wait a while. This will of course only be one side of the story.
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| From | Pierre-Elliott Bécue <peb@debian.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2022-01-16 22:40 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <DGlpM-7Rr-7@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #244055 |
Anders Andersson <pipatron@gmail.com> wrote on 16/01/2022 at 17:09:01+0100: > On Sat, Jan 15, 2022 at 11:29 AM Marco Möller > <talby@debianlists.mobilxpress.net> wrote: >> >> Does somebody has information about what in the background has happened, >> which made Norbert leaving the team? >> Considering that Debian is a community project and myself feeling to be >> part of the community, although not actively involved in its maintenance >> and development, I am wondering what is going on in the community after >> his post from yesterday sounds like there are things happening in the >> community, which not all the community might be aware of. >> In his blog he wrote "After having been (again) demoted [...] based on >> flimsy arguments, I have been forced to rethink the level of >> contribution I want to do for Debian." >> https://www.preining.info/blog/2022/01/future-of-my-packages-in-debian/ >> >> I wish that someone could publish some background information, neutral >> and respectful and without harming anybody. I am absolutely not >> interested to start here in public a war of recriminations. I simply >> feel that it would be worth for the health of the community to get a >> more transparent view on what is going on in the community. >> Do you have some background information which you could share in PLEASE >> neutral, well thought text, serving the community and its transparency >> instead of rupturing it? >> Thanks, Marco. > > I read a few of the comments on the blog you linked to, and he replies > to one comment: > > "No there is no public record (for now), as all happened on > debian-private. In due time I will document the whole process, since I > have access to all of debian-private until recently. Time to show what > really went on." > > Maybe you just have to wait a while. This will of course only be one > side of the story. And as debian-private is private, there is little to no chance a Debian Member will provide any mail Norbert might not provide. And, for the sake of clarity, neither Norbert should provide no mail at all, for the forementioned reason. Regards, -- PEB
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| From | harryweaver@tutanota.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2022-01-17 01:10 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <DGnKW-1bL-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #244085 |
-- Sent with Tutanota, the secure & ad-free mailbox. 17 Jan 2022, 07:36 by peb@debian.org: > > Anders Andersson <pipatron@gmail.com> wrote on 16/01/2022 at 17:09:01+0100: > >> On Sat, Jan 15, 2022 at 11:29 AM Marco Möller >> <talby@debianlists.mobilxpress.net> wrote: >> >>> >>> Does somebody has information about what in the background has happened, >>> which made Norbert leaving the team? >>> Considering that Debian is a community project and myself feeling to be >>> part of the community, although not actively involved in its maintenance >>> and development, I am wondering what is going on in the community after >>> his post from yesterday sounds like there are things happening in the >>> community, which not all the community might be aware of. >>> In his blog he wrote "After having been (again) demoted [...] based on >>> flimsy arguments, I have been forced to rethink the level of >>> contribution I want to do for Debian." >>> https://www.preining.info/blog/2022/01/future-of-my-packages-in-debian/ >>> >>> I wish that someone could publish some background information, neutral >>> and respectful and without harming anybody. I am absolutely not >>> interested to start here in public a war of recriminations. I simply >>> feel that it would be worth for the health of the community to get a >>> more transparent view on what is going on in the community. >>> Do you have some background information which you could share in PLEASE >>> neutral, well thought text, serving the community and its transparency >>> instead of rupturing it? >>> Thanks, Marco. >>> >> >> I read a few of the comments on the blog you linked to, and he replies >> to one comment: >> >> "No there is no public record (for now), as all happened on >> debian-private. In due time I will document the whole process, since I >> have access to all of debian-private until recently. Time to show what >> really went on." >> >> Maybe you just have to wait a while. This will of course only be one >> side of the story. >> > > And as debian-private is private, there is little to no chance a Debian > Member will provide any mail Norbert might not provide. > > And, for the sake of clarity, neither Norbert should provide no mail at > all, for the forementioned reason. > And I believe in open source. Cheers! Harry
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| From | Pierre-Elliott Bécue <peb@debian.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2022-01-17 23:20 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <DGIw2-6AY-3@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #244096 |
harryweaver@tutanota.com wrote on 17/01/2022 at 01:02:28+0100: > And I believe in open source. That's good to know, although I don't see the connection with what I said. (apart from that matter you should check your mail client configuration, replying below the quoted mail that you've put after your signature makes your message… hard to find) -- PEB
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| From | harryweaver@tutanota.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2022-01-17 23:30 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <DGIFI-6Hd-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #244145 |
18 Jan 2022, 08:09 by peb@debian.org: > > harryweaver@tutanota.com wrote on 17/01/2022 at 01:02:28+0100: > >> And I believe in open source. >> > > That's good to know, although I don't see the connection with what I > said. > Open source equates with open information access. That's actually what it's all about. Cheers! Harry.
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| From | Nicholas Geovanis <nickgeovanis@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2022-01-18 00:00 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <DGJ8O-6To-11@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #244147 |
[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw
On Mon, Jan 17, 2022, 4:21 PM <harryweaver@tutanota.com> wrote: > > 18 Jan 2022, 08:09 by peb@debian.org: > > > harryweaver@tutanota.com wrote on 17/01/2022 at 01:02:28+0100: > > > >> And I believe in open source. > >> > > > > That's good to know, although I don't see the connection with what I > > said. > > Open source equates with open information access. > That's actually what it's all about. > Cheers! > Thank you for saying that, agree. www.preining.info has discussion of the future of his software on Debian. He's using Arch. I'm thinking about volunteering to maintain Julia on Debian, it's behind and not in testing. I haven't looked at the code. I don't have the time to follow the controversy. All I can say is it's 20 years Preining contributing to Debian, now over. Harry. > >
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| From | Nicholas Geovanis <nickgeovanis@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2022-01-18 00:10 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <DGJiq-7cd-3@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #244151 |
[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw
On Mon, Jan 17, 2022, 4:56 PM Nicholas Geovanis <nickgeovanis@gmail.com> wrote: > On Mon, Jan 17, 2022, 4:21 PM <harryweaver@tutanota.com> wrote: > >> >> 18 Jan 2022, 08:09 by peb@debian.org: >> >> > harryweaver@tutanota.com wrote on 17/01/2022 at 01:02:28+0100: >> > >> >> And I believe in open source. >> >> >> > >> > That's good to know, although I don't see the connection with what I >> > said. >> >> Open source equates with open information access. >> That's actually what it's all about. >> Cheers! >> > > Thank you for saying that, agree. > www.preining.info has discussion of the future of his software on Debian. > He's using Arch. I'm thinking about volunteering to maintain Julia on > Debian, it's behind and not in testing. I haven't looked at the code. > > I don't have the time to follow the controversy. All I can say is it's 20 > years Preining contributing to Debian, now over. > And just to be clear: Yes, without presentation of alternate views, we are told to accept the (hopefully democratic) outcome as justified and a better place for us too. Harry. >> >>
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| From | Pierre-Elliott Bécue <peb@debian.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2022-01-18 00:10 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <DGJiq-7cd-5@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #244147 |
harryweaver@tutanota.com wrote on 17/01/2022 at 23:21:07+0100: > 18 Jan 2022, 08:09 by peb@debian.org: > >> >> harryweaver@tutanota.com wrote on 17/01/2022 at 01:02:28+0100: >> >>> And I believe in open source. >>> >> >> That's good to know, although I don't see the connection with what I >> said. >> > > Open source equates with open information access. I disagree with this statement, which would have insane and far-from-desirable consequences if it were true. > That's actually what it's all about. Thank you for sharing your opinion on this. -- Pierre-Elliott Bécue
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| From | Marco Möller <talby@debianlists.mobilxpress.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2022-01-22 14:00 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <DIo9Q-3m5-7@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #244085 |
On 16.01.22 22:36, Pierre-Elliott Bécue wrote: > > Anders Andersson <pipatron@gmail.com> wrote on 16/01/2022 at 17:09:01+0100: > >> On Sat, Jan 15, 2022 at 11:29 AM Marco Möller >> <talby@debianlists.mobilxpress.net> wrote: >>> >>> Does somebody has information about what in the background has happened, >>> which made Norbert leaving the team? >>> Considering that Debian is a community project and myself feeling to be >>> part of the community, although not actively involved in its maintenance >>> and development, I am wondering what is going on in the community after >>> his post from yesterday sounds like there are things happening in the >>> community, which not all the community might be aware of. >>> In his blog he wrote "After having been (again) demoted [...] based on >>> flimsy arguments, I have been forced to rethink the level of >>> contribution I want to do for Debian." >>> https://www.preining.info/blog/2022/01/future-of-my-packages-in-debian/ >>> >>> I wish that someone could publish some background information, neutral >>> and respectful and without harming anybody. I am absolutely not >>> interested to start here in public a war of recriminations. I simply >>> feel that it would be worth for the health of the community to get a >>> more transparent view on what is going on in the community. >>> Do you have some background information which you could share in PLEASE >>> neutral, well thought text, serving the community and its transparency >>> instead of rupturing it? >>> Thanks, Marco. >> >> I read a few of the comments on the blog you linked to, and he replies >> to one comment: >> >> "No there is no public record (for now), as all happened on >> debian-private. In due time I will document the whole process, since I >> have access to all of debian-private until recently. Time to show what >> really went on." >> >> Maybe you just have to wait a while. This will of course only be one >> side of the story. > > And as debian-private is private, there is little to no chance a Debian > Member will provide any mail Norbert might not provide. > > And, for the sake of clarity, neither Norbert should provide no mail at > all, for the forementioned reason. For transparency in a community driven project I do not think it would be needed to share private messages. Instead, a statement like the following would provide some transparency: "the package maintainer was asked to comply to the following rules ...(stating which ones...) but apparently no conciliation was reached; therefore the committee ...(stating which committee)... decided to take the following measures ...(which measures)..." Without transparency the Debian project does not present itself as community driven, but as a closer circle of directing minds hiding the reasoning for their decisions. Skeptics might even ask who in such conjectured circle is providing truly independent work to the project and who is getting paid paid by whom for the efforts put into the project and then link taken decisions simply to monetary pressure? Such rumors can easily be defeated by more transparency. I would expect that factual statements can be published without violating privacy of private conversations. Maybe some insider can speak up and shed light on the situation. Best wishes, Marco
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| From | "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2022-01-22 14:50 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <DIoWd-3Si-9@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #244323 |
Hi, Marco Möller wrote: > a statement like the following would provide some transparency: > "the package maintainer was asked to comply to the following rules > ...(stating which ones...) but apparently no conciliation was reached; > therefore the committee ...(stating which committee)... decided to take the > following measures ...(which measures)..." When this topic came up i googled around for learning about the actual conflict. This mail by Norbert Preining https://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2018/12/msg00032.html describes his view on his demotion from Debian Developer to Debian Maintainer by the Debian Account Mangers (DAM) initiated by the Anti Harassment team (AH, now Community team). His mail quotes some of their mails. The follow-ups contain replies by the other side of this conflict. I think the further deterioration of his relation with Debian stems from there, but i did not explore 900 matches of https://lists.debian.org/cgi-bin/search?P=Norbert+Preining&DEFAULTOP=or&B=Gdebian-project&SORT=&HITSPERPAGE=10 Have a nice day :) Thomas
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| From | songbird <songbird@anthive.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2022-01-22 15:30 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <DIpyV-4kb-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #244326 |
Thomas Schmitt wrote: ... > When this topic came up i googled around for learning about the actual > conflict. > This mail by Norbert Preining > > https://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2018/12/msg00032.html > > describes his view on his demotion from Debian Developer to Debian > Maintainer by the Debian Account Mangers (DAM) initiated by the > Anti Harassment team (AH, now Community team). > His mail quotes some of their mails. The follow-ups contain replies by > the other side of this conflict. > > I think the further deterioration of his relation with Debian stems from > there, but i did not explore 900 matches of > > https://lists.debian.org/cgi-bin/search?P=Norbert+Preining&DEFAULTOP=or&B=Gdebian-project&SORT=&HITSPERPAGE=10 > > > Have a nice day :) excellent reply and pretty much my own feelings on the matter too. :) if people want to keep trolling on the matter it's all fine with me but it doubtful it will shed any more light in relation to how much heat it will give off for not much gain. songbird
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| From | Marco Möller <talby@debianlists.mobilxpress.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2022-01-22 20:40 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <DIuoW-7dP-11@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #244328 |
On 22.01.22 15:24, songbird wrote: > Thomas Schmitt wrote: > ... >> When this topic came up i googled around for learning about the actual >> conflict. >> This mail by Norbert Preining >> >> https://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2018/12/msg00032.html >> >> describes his view on his demotion from Debian Developer to Debian >> Maintainer by the Debian Account Mangers (DAM) initiated by the >> Anti Harassment team (AH, now Community team). >> His mail quotes some of their mails. The follow-ups contain replies by >> the other side of this conflict. >> >> I think the further deterioration of his relation with Debian stems from >> there, but i did not explore 900 matches of >> >> https://lists.debian.org/cgi-bin/search?P=Norbert+Preining&DEFAULTOP=or&B=Gdebian-project&SORT=&HITSPERPAGE=10 >> >> >> Have a nice day :) > > excellent reply and pretty much my own feelings on the matter > too. :) > > if people want to keep trolling on the matter it's all fine with > me but it doubtful it will shed any more light in relation to how > much heat it will give off for not much gain. > > > songbird > Asking for transparency to sound like trolling wasn't my intention. I am sorry if I wasn't able to find the correct wording for keeping these to things distinguishable. Being a grateful user of Debian, and being in my circle of influence a strong advocate of the Debian project, and also of the KDE Plasma desktop environment as available in Debian, I do not feel it to be, lets say, insolent, if interested in community affairs. Actually, I feel it desirable to stay well informed for reinforcing advocacy, and asking for transparency is to me a coherent step. I feel that a concise statement from Debian insiders would gain a lot to not provoke avoidable discussions and would right away defeat heat given off obstructively. As Thomas pointed out, there are hundreds of posts from years old discussions which appear to be the prelude to the current situation. Some of these public discussions have been quite controversial, partly also questioning if community processes are always taking place sufficiently transparent. Currently I find only a public statement from one party. This could harm the Debian project. Some concise statement from somebody in the Debian project with insights into the issue could prevent Debian from bad repute by declassifying which are the positions of the present disagreement. Best wishes, Marco
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| From | "Andrew M.A. Cater" <amacater@einval.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2022-01-23 00:30 +0100 |
| Subject | [SUMMARY STATEMENT] Was: Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? |
| Message-ID | <DIxZv-XQ-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #244352 |
On Sat, Jan 22, 2022 at 08:29:42PM +0100, Marco Möller wrote: > On 22.01.22 15:24, songbird wrote: > > Thomas Schmitt wrote: > > ... > > > When this topic came up i googled around for learning about the actual > > > conflict. > > > This mail by Norbert Preining > > > > > > https://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2018/12/msg00032.html > > > > > > describes his view on his demotion from Debian Developer to Debian > > > Maintainer by the Debian Account Mangers (DAM) initiated by the > > > Anti Harassment team (AH, now Community team). > > > His mail quotes some of their mails. The follow-ups contain replies by > > > the other side of this conflict. > > > > > > I think the further deterioration of his relation with Debian stems from > > > there, but i did not explore 900 matches of > > > > > > https://lists.debian.org/cgi-bin/search?P=Norbert+Preining&DEFAULTOP=or&B=Gdebian-project&SORT=&HITSPERPAGE=10 > > > > > > > > > Have a nice day :) > > > > excellent reply and pretty much my own feelings on the matter > > too. :) > > > > if people want to keep trolling on the matter it's all fine with > > me but it doubtful it will shed any more light in relation to how > > much heat it will give off for not much gain. > > > > > > songbird > > > > Asking for transparency to sound like trolling wasn't my intention. I am > sorry if I wasn't able to find the correct wording for keeping these to > things distinguishable. > > Being a grateful user of Debian, and being in my circle of influence a > strong advocate of the Debian project, and also of the KDE Plasma desktop > environment as available in Debian, I do not feel it to be, lets say, > insolent, if interested in community affairs. Actually, I feel it desirable > to stay well informed for reinforcing advocacy, and asking for transparency > is to me a coherent step. > > I feel that a concise statement from Debian insiders would gain a lot to not > provoke avoidable discussions and would right away defeat heat given off > obstructively. > As Thomas pointed out, there are hundreds of posts from years old > discussions which appear to be the prelude to the current situation. Some of > these public discussions have been quite controversial, partly also > questioning if community processes are always taking place sufficiently > transparent. Currently I find only a public statement from one party. This > could harm the Debian project. Some concise statement from somebody in the > Debian project with insights into the issue could prevent Debian from bad > repute by declassifying which are the positions of the present disagreement. > > Best wishes, > Marco > On behalf of DAM - the Debian Account Managers - the brief statement follows: ==== Norbert's status as Debian Developer has been officially withdrawn after repeated violations of the Debian Code of Conduct. An appeal process was also initiated and has concluded. It upheld the withdrawal of the Debian Developer status. That withdrawal does not prevent him from making contributions to the Debian Project. However, it's entirely understandable that he might choose to leave the community instead. That is a decision we must respect, and I'd ask you to do so as well. ===== With every good wish, Andrew Cater
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| From | Marco Möller <talby@debianlists.mobilxpress.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2022-01-23 19:50 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: [SUMMARY STATEMENT] Was: Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? |
| Message-ID | <DIQ65-3nO-3@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #244370 |
On 23.01.22 00:24, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote: > On Sat, Jan 22, 2022 at 08:29:42PM +0100, Marco Möller wrote: >> On 22.01.22 15:24, songbird wrote: >>> Thomas Schmitt wrote: >>> ... >>>> When this topic came up i googled around for learning about the actual >>>> conflict. >>>> This mail by Norbert Preining >>>> >>>> https://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2018/12/msg00032.html >>>> >>>> describes his view on his demotion from Debian Developer to Debian >>>> Maintainer by the Debian Account Mangers (DAM) initiated by the >>>> Anti Harassment team (AH, now Community team). >>>> His mail quotes some of their mails. The follow-ups contain replies by >>>> the other side of this conflict. >>>> >>>> I think the further deterioration of his relation with Debian stems from >>>> there, but i did not explore 900 matches of >>>> >>>> https://lists.debian.org/cgi-bin/search?P=Norbert+Preining&DEFAULTOP=or&B=Gdebian-project&SORT=&HITSPERPAGE=10 >>>> >>>> >>>> Have a nice day :) >>> >>> excellent reply and pretty much my own feelings on the matter >>> too. :) >>> >>> if people want to keep trolling on the matter it's all fine with >>> me but it doubtful it will shed any more light in relation to how >>> much heat it will give off for not much gain. >>> >>> >>> songbird >>> >> >> Asking for transparency to sound like trolling wasn't my intention. I am >> sorry if I wasn't able to find the correct wording for keeping these to >> things distinguishable. >> >> Being a grateful user of Debian, and being in my circle of influence a >> strong advocate of the Debian project, and also of the KDE Plasma desktop >> environment as available in Debian, I do not feel it to be, lets say, >> insolent, if interested in community affairs. Actually, I feel it desirable >> to stay well informed for reinforcing advocacy, and asking for transparency >> is to me a coherent step. >> >> I feel that a concise statement from Debian insiders would gain a lot to not >> provoke avoidable discussions and would right away defeat heat given off >> obstructively. >> As Thomas pointed out, there are hundreds of posts from years old >> discussions which appear to be the prelude to the current situation. Some of >> these public discussions have been quite controversial, partly also >> questioning if community processes are always taking place sufficiently >> transparent. Currently I find only a public statement from one party. This >> could harm the Debian project. Some concise statement from somebody in the >> Debian project with insights into the issue could prevent Debian from bad >> repute by declassifying which are the positions of the present disagreement. >> >> Best wishes, >> Marco >> > > On behalf of DAM - the Debian Account Managers - the brief statement follows: > > ==== > > Norbert's status as Debian Developer has been officially withdrawn after > repeated violations of the Debian Code of Conduct. An appeal process was also > initiated and has concluded. It upheld the withdrawal of the Debian Developer > status. > > That withdrawal does not prevent him from making contributions to the Debian > Project. However, it's entirely understandable that he might choose to leave > the community instead. That is a decision we must respect, and I'd ask you to > do so as well. > > ===== > > With every good wish, > > Andrew Cater > Dear Andrew, Dear Debian Account Managers, I thank you very much for your public response. It is much appreciated, and not only because of the clear information, that in this particular case the position of both parties is now public, but specially also because you answered here on the list to me even though I am simply a normal user. We all know that facing controversy with users and with contributors is a very tough task. You earn my full respect for publicly standing up and defending the project. A suggestion which you might want to discuss in the committee(s): maybe you can consider if in the balancing act between privacy and transparency there could be space for a bulletin board where the Debian project publishes by internal committees taken decisions which are likely to be of interest for the broader community. Maybe on https://www.debian.org/intro/index#community in the "Debian is a Community" column is space for another link "Committee Notifications", or opening a list "debian-committee-announce". The present https://micronews.debian.org/ "Debian micronews" could stay reserved for the technical news, while the suggested notification location would publish community related news. Well, nothing which shall be discussed here in this thread, just my suggestion to the Debian project. Thanks a lot, for your above provided response and also for Debian, Best wishes, Marco
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| From | local10 <local10@tutanota.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2022-01-23 20:20 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: [SUMMARY STATEMENT] Was: Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? |
| Message-ID | <DIQz8-3MR-3@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #244433 |
Jan 23, 2022, 18:48 by talby@debianlists.mobilxpress.net: > On 23.01.22 00:24, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote: > >> >> >>>>> I think the further deterioration of his relation with Debian stems from >>>>> there, but i did not explore 900 matches of >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> https://lists.debian.org/cgi-bin/search?P=Norbert+Preining&DEFAULTOP=or&B=Gdebian-project&SORT=&HITSPERPAGE=10 >>>>> This one is pretty telling: https://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2019/01/msg00186.html If I were one of the Debian developers I'd rethink if I want to continue contributing to a project where the developers are treated in such a way. Regards,
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| From | Pierre-Elliott Bécue <peb@debian.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2022-01-23 21:10 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: [SUMMARY STATEMENT] Was: Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? |
| Message-ID | <DIRlv-4i7-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #244438 |
local10 <local10@tutanota.com> wrote on 23/01/2022 at 20:10:26+0100: > Jan 23, 2022, 18:48 by talby@debianlists.mobilxpress.net: > >> On 23.01.22 00:24, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote: >> >>> >>> >>>>>> I think the further deterioration of his relation with Debian stems from >>>>>> there, but i did not explore 900 matches of >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> https://lists.debian.org/cgi-bin/search?P=Norbert+Preining&DEFAULTOP=or&B=Gdebian-project&SORT=&HITSPERPAGE=10 >>>>>> > > > This one is pretty telling: > > https://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2019/01/msg00186.html > > If I were one of the Debian developers I'd rethink if I want to > continue contributing to a project where the developers are treated in > such a way. > > Regards, Ian, who was not part of the decision to expel Norbert, went off road, and you can see that many reminded him that, including DAM members (who were the ones having decided to remove Norbert from Debian at first): https://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2019/01/msg00181.html https://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2019/01/msg00184.html I find this pretty telling, too, but of course, you probably just accidentally missed it. -- PEB
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| From | <tomas@tuxteam.de> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2022-01-23 21:10 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: [SUMMARY STATEMENT] Was: Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? |
| Message-ID | <DIRlw-4i7-9@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #244438 |
[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw
On Sun, Jan 23, 2022 at 08:10:26PM +0100, local10 wrote: > Jan 23, 2022, 18:48 by talby@debianlists.mobilxpress.net: > > > On 23.01.22 00:24, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote: > > > >> > >> > >>>>> I think the further deterioration of his relation with Debian stems from > >>>>> there, but i did not explore 900 matches of > >>>>> > >>>>> >>>>> https://lists.debian.org/cgi-bin/search?P=Norbert+Preining&DEFAULTOP=or&B=Gdebian-project&SORT=&HITSPERPAGE=10 > >>>>> > > > This one is pretty telling: [...] I don't know what you want to achieve with this. You don't like Debian? Either participate and help to change it -- or shut up and go away. What you are doing looks a lot like... trolling. > If I were one of the Debian developers I'd rethink if I want to continue contributing to a project where the developers are treated in such a way. You aren't, so the question doesn't pose itself, does it? Now I'll stop. I might be feeding the troll otherwise. (And oh, whoever wants to get a more thorough impression: look through all the thread, and not just through the one message cherry-picked for you). Cheers -- tomás
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| From | Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2022-01-23 21:20 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: [SUMMARY STATEMENT] Was: Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? |
| Message-ID | <DIRvb-4l8-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #244438 |
[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw
On 2022-01-23 14:10, local10 wrote: > Jan 23, 2022, 18:48 by talby@debianlists.mobilxpress.net: > >> On 23.01.22 00:24, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote: >> >>> >>> >>>>>> I think the further deterioration of his relation with Debian stems from >>>>>> there, but i did not explore 900 matches of >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> https://lists.debian.org/cgi-bin/search?P=Norbert+Preining&DEFAULTOP=or&B=Gdebian-project&SORT=&HITSPERPAGE=10 >>>>>> > > > This one is pretty telling: > > https://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2019/01/msg00186.html > > If I were one of the Debian developers I'd rethink if I want to continue contributing to a project where the developers are treated in such a way. > You'd leave because you have to be held responsible for your actions ? > Regards, > -- Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside -Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development
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