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Re: Python 3.11, bytecode and new internals

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On 11/21/22 18:30, Sandro Tosi wrote:
> On Mon, Nov 21, 2022 at 12:03 PM Louis-Philippe Véronneau
> <pollo@debian.org> wrote:
>>
>> On 2022-11-21 02 h 08, Julian Gilbey wrote:
>>> I'm just flagging this up here, with a question about how we should
>>> proceed.  Certainly we are not ready to make Python 3.11 the default
>>> Python version!!
>>
>> This is a concern I share and I think I've been pretty vocal about it.
>>
>> I feel the state of python packages for Bookworm with 3.10 was pretty
>> good and it seemed reasonable to prioritize stability for our next
>> stable release :)
>>
>> It's very frustrating to work on packaging python libraries and apps for
>> a whole release cycle, just to see all that work put in the bin at the
>> last minute because upstream doesn't support 3.11...
> 
> this, 100 times

I very much don't agree. I think it's going pretty well, and the number 
of breakage isn't high. We just need a little bit of effort to make it 
in good enough shape.

>> I've been told the current 3.11 transition was a test, and if it was
>> clear too many important things were broken and couldn't be fixed, we
>> would roll back and release using 3.10.

Though we're not there yet, as a point were we can say it's a lost battle.

> why are we running a "test" this close to the release?

Let me fix the above sentence for you:
s/release/freeze/

Because Python 3.11 brings many nice feature, one of them being that 
it's 15 to 50% faster, very often 20% faster. Also, releasing the last 
Debian with an already obsolete interpreter version doesn't feel good.

> *who* are we
> running this test for? who made this decision (i figure RT gave the go
> ahead, but still)? is there any searchable source for this claim?

This was discussed during Debconf in Prizren. You are always free to:
- join us during debconf
- join on IRC if you can't go to Debconf
- read the video and voice your concerns on the list

So the decision was made collectively. We also discussed this on IRC, 
and in this very list, if I'm not mistaking (sorry, I will not search 
for it).

Currently, Python 3.11 is only an "available interpreter version", not 
the default. So it's kind of easy to revert (we would "only" need to 
remove the 3.11 interpreter, and rebuild the packages that produce 3.11 
so files). It would be a lot harder to revert having 3.11 as default, 
Mathias said/wrote. So we're good...

I very much thank Stefano for the many fixes he already uploaded.

Now, out of *many* of my packages, only a very few broke. Complicated 
packages like Eventlet for example, just worked. Others had upstream 
patches I applied. And I am in the opinion that we should go ahead and 
make 3.11 the default.

I'd be happy to have the opinion of the rest of the team, especially 
Doko and Stefano.

Cheers,

Thomas Goirand (zigo)

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Thread

Python 3.11, bytecode and new internals Julian Gilbey <julian@d-and-j.net> - 2022-11-21 08:30 +0100
  Re: Python 3.11, bytecode and new internals Louis-Philippe Véronneau <pollo@debian.org> - 2022-11-21 18:10 +0100
    Re: Python 3.11, bytecode and new internals Scott Kitterman <debian@kitterman.com> - 2022-11-21 18:30 +0100
      Re: Python 3.11, bytecode and new internals Scott Kitterman <debian@kitterman.com> - 2022-11-22 15:20 +0100
    Re: Python 3.11, bytecode and new internals Sandro Tosi <morph@debian.org> - 2022-11-21 18:40 +0100
      Re: Python 3.11, bytecode and new internals Thomas Goirand <zigo@debian.org> - 2022-11-22 09:30 +0100
        Re: Python 3.11, bytecode and new internals Julian Gilbey <julian@d-and-j.net> - 2022-11-22 11:00 +0100
          Re: Python 3.11, bytecode and new internals Thomas Goirand <zigo@debian.org> - 2022-11-22 17:10 +0100
            Re: Python 3.11, bytecode and new internals Julian Gilbey <julian@d-and-j.net> - 2022-11-22 18:00 +0100
              Re: Python 3.11, bytecode and new internals Thomas Goirand <zigo@debian.org> - 2022-11-23 00:30 +0100
                Re: Python 3.11, bytecode and new internals Julian Gilbey <julian@d-and-j.net> - 2022-11-23 08:40 +0100

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