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Re: Apple Time Capsule -- Unknown User

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On 2015-02-15, Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
> On 2015.02.14 11:47 , Jolly Roger wrote:
>> On 2015-02-14, Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
>>> On 2015.02.12 10:11 , Jolly Roger wrote:
>>>
>>>> As much as I hate repeating myself: MAC address filtering is there to
>>>> prevent casual users from connecting unknown devices, and is meant to
>>>> augment key-based encryption security already in place on a router. The
>>>> two are not mutually exclusive and can be legitimately used together.
>>>> Why you guys continue to argue as if anyone is claiming MAC address
>>>> filtering should be used by itself is beyond me, since nobody here has
>>>> made such a suggestion TMK. Very strange!
>>>
>>> I reject the blacklist/whitelist approach for the same reason that SSID
>>> hiding should (generally) be rejected.
>>
>> The idea that features you don't happen to appreciate should
>> automatically be rejected by others seems silly to me.
>
> I did appreciate them in the past.  And used them.  And then came to my 
> senses.

Actually you used them for a specific purpose, which they did serve, and
you no longer need them now. See below.

> They are akin to prayer to prevent pregnancy.  Doesn't hurt, but 
> certainly not proven to have any effect.

Wrong. They do have an effect. The effect of hiding the SSID is that the
network is omitted in listings from utilities and programs that scan for
wireless SSIDs. A casual user might never find the network whose SSID is
hidden. The effect of MAC address white lists is that devices with MAC
addresses that are not on the white list are not allowed to join the
network, even if they have the right encryption passkey. A casual user
would be unable to connect even if they had the encryption key. Why lie
about it stating there are no effects? While you may choose to pretend
these effects are non-existent, they are real and may be useful for
their limited purposes. You act as though you are doing others a
service, but by being dishonest you are only spreading misinformation.
That's not constructive.

>>> Strong WPA2 passwords.  That's all that's needed.  Keep both the expert
>>> hackers and the accidental accessers off of the network.
>>
>> Again, nobody here, as far as I can tell - and certainly not me - has
>> suggested that one should not use strong encryption keys. And if someone
>> sees utility in using other features like MAC address filtering, who am
>> I to say they should not? I gave an example of one potential situation
>> where a family shares an encryption key, but the parents want to control
>> which devices can connect, so use the MAC address filtering feature to
>> do so without having to change and re-distribute the key among family
>> members. I'm sure others can find other legitimate uses for the feature.
>> Just because *you* don't appreciate this feature doesn't mean it has
>> absolutely no value for *others*.
>
> That's not the prior context of security

It's the context of this thread in this news group, where the OP asked
if Apple's routers support MAC address filtering, which they do. You are
injecting your own context into the mix, claiming that the feature is
absolutely useless, when it does have utility for limited situations. 

> I did use MAC addresses solely to block internet access to my son from
> 23:00 to 06:00 so he would get off the net and go to sleep.  <sigh>
> Don't need that now.

Finally, you admit the feature can be useful.

> But as a (in context) means of security,

Lies. General security was *not* the context of the OP. The OP simply
asked whether Apple's routers supported MAC address white lists. You and
one or two others here injected the general security context into the
conversation, which would have been fine, except you then made further
claims that someone was promoting MAC address filtering as the sole
means of security - nobody has done that, as far as I can see - least of
all me.

> b/w listing is a placebo for the user and meaningless to a determined
> hacker.  It's extra work for the admin for no security gain.

You and one or two others keep saying this over and over again, even
though not a single person here has suggested that MAC address filters
should be used as the sole method of access control. It's not
constructive.

>>> A determined hacker who believes he has even a modicum of a chance at
>>> brute forcing WPA2 will walk through b/w-listing quickly once he's
>>> discovered the hidden SSID.  Those two steps are just irritants - sort
>>> of insulting to him.
>>
>> Again, the feature isn't for determined hackers, but for casual users.
>
> And again, the only thing really needed is WPA2.  The casual user is not 
> getting past that given a strong pw.

Again (and as you just admitted above), sometimes people want to have
both, so they can secure the network *and* allow only specific device
MAC addresses to connect. MAC address filtering and encryption are not
mutually exclusive. I'm really tired of repeating myself.

>>> That they add to more complexity in managing a WiFi network is just more
>>> reason to avoid them.  They cost you more (over time) than they cost the
>>> capable hacker.
>>
>> According to you, who never uses them. Others can decide for themselves
>> whether using these features is worth the added complexity, and don't
>> need you to make that decision for them.
>
> I did.  When I first set up a WiFi I used both SSID hiding and white 
> listing.  At the time, IIRC, WEP was the wall.  Over time upgraded to 
> WPA, then WPA2 and dropped the whitelisting and SSID hiding as it became 
> clear they were pretty useless for anything related to preventing 
> intrusions while increasing my need to "manage" the network.

The OP never said anything about *how* he wanted to use MAC address
filtering. You and a couple others here seem to insist that those
who use MAC address filtering are doing so with no other protections in
place, despite the fact that not a single person has made that claim
here. Please stop. It's not constructive.

>>> But if you get more warm and fuzzy out of b/w-listing and possibly
>>> hidden SSID's, then go for it - and the added management.
>>
>> You seem like you'd rather nobody use them. Make up your mind. : )
>
> I don't care if you or anyone uses them

I think you definitely care a lot, or you wouldn't be railing against it
so strongly here.

> I just advise that it's added burden to the owner and no burden to
> anyone trying to get in.

Wrong. It's definitely a burden to someone using a device that cannot change
its MAC address, or someone who does not even know how to change one, or
someone who is not even aware of what MAC filtering is. And with a
well-secured router, even if a stranger knows how to get passed MAC
address filtering, they still can't get past the encrypted key that they
do not know. And if they are a skilled enough person with enough
resources to bypass encryption protections, then encryption is an
"added burden" to the owner of the access point as well, in your own
words. Stop pretending the feature has absolutely no utility. It does
have limited utility, and may be useful for certain situations. And you
have admitted that you have used it in the past when you needed it.

> That it may turn away a casual connection is no added benefit when the 
> same casual connection can't get through WPA2.  Just as fast as turning 
> them away.

Wrong again. It's an added benefit that that casual user would not have
access even if they had the password to the router. You just admitted
above that you have used it to do exactly that. You saw the benefit of
it yourself and now admit you no longer need it. Good for you. Others,
like the OP, might want it for their own uses. Good for them that it's
available.

Must we really have this circular conversation yet again? I'm *really*
bored with it. 

-- 
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR

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Apple Time Capsule -- Unknown User TaliesinSoft <taliesinsoft@me.com> - 2015-02-08 21:47 -0600
  Re: Apple Time Capsule -- Unknown User Don Bruder <dakidd@sonic.net> - 2015-02-08 20:37 -0800
  Re: Apple Time Capsule -- Unknown User Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2015-02-08 21:37 -0700
  Re: Apple Time Capsule -- Unknown User Tom Stiller <clusterfux.upmon@gmail.com> - 2015-02-09 14:05 +0000
    Re: Apple Time Capsule -- Unknown User Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> - 2015-02-09 09:19 -0500
    Re: Apple Time Capsule -- Unknown User nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2015-02-09 13:01 -0500
    Re: Apple Time Capsule -- Unknown User Paul Sture <nospam@sture.ch> - 2015-02-10 10:55 +0100
      Re: Apple Time Capsule -- Unknown User Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2015-02-10 14:00 +0000
        Re: Apple Time Capsule -- Unknown User Paul Sture <nospam@sture.ch> - 2015-02-10 20:08 +0100
      Re: Apple Time Capsule -- Unknown User nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2015-02-10 14:42 -0500
        Re: Apple Time Capsule -- Unknown User Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2015-02-10 20:03 +0000
          Re: Apple Time Capsule -- Unknown User nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2015-02-10 16:05 -0500
            Re: Apple Time Capsule -- Unknown User Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2015-02-10 21:17 +0000
              Re: Apple Time Capsule -- Unknown User Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> - 2015-02-10 19:51 -0500
      Re: Apple Time Capsule -- Unknown User Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2015-02-10 20:54 +0000
        Re: Apple Time Capsule -- Unknown User Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2015-02-10 21:18 +0000
          Re: Apple Time Capsule -- Unknown User Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2015-02-10 22:37 +0000
            Re: Apple Time Capsule -- Unknown User Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2015-02-11 00:04 +0000
              Re: Apple Time Capsule -- Unknown User Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2015-02-11 12:37 +0000
                Re: Apple Time Capsule -- Unknown User Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2015-02-11 15:07 +0000
                Re: Apple Time Capsule -- Unknown User Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2015-02-11 15:16 +0000
                Re: Apple Time Capsule -- Unknown User Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2015-02-11 08:32 -0700
                Re: Apple Time Capsule -- Unknown User Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2015-02-11 15:53 +0000
                Re: Apple Time Capsule -- Unknown User Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2015-02-11 08:24 -0700
                Re: Apple Time Capsule -- Unknown User Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> - 2015-02-11 15:27 +0000
                Re: Apple Time Capsule -- Unknown User Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2015-02-11 15:53 +0000
                Re: Apple Time Capsule -- Unknown User nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2015-02-11 12:22 -0500
                Re: Apple Time Capsule -- Unknown User Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2015-02-11 18:00 +0000
                Re: Apple Time Capsule -- Unknown User Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2015-02-12 01:51 +0000
                Re: Apple Time Capsule -- Unknown User Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2015-02-12 14:11 +0000
                Re: Apple Time Capsule -- Unknown User Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2015-02-12 14:52 +0000
                Re: Apple Time Capsule -- Unknown User Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2015-02-12 15:11 +0000
                Re: Apple Time Capsule -- Unknown User Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2015-02-12 15:38 +0000
                Re: Apple Time Capsule -- Unknown User Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2015-02-12 16:03 +0000
                Re: Apple Time Capsule -- Unknown User Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> - 2015-02-14 11:00 -0500
                Re: Apple Time Capsule -- Unknown User Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2015-02-14 19:44 +0000
                Re: Apple Time Capsule -- Unknown User Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> - 2015-02-14 10:58 -0500
                Re: Apple Time Capsule -- Unknown User Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2015-02-14 16:47 +0000
                Re: Apple Time Capsule -- Unknown User Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2015-02-15 01:10 +0000
                Re: Apple Time Capsule -- Unknown User Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2015-02-15 01:39 +0000
                Re: Apple Time Capsule -- Unknown User Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> - 2015-02-15 09:24 -0500
                Re: Apple Time Capsule -- Unknown User Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2015-02-15 14:56 +0000
                Re: Apple Time Capsule -- Unknown User Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> - 2015-02-15 11:13 -0500
                Re: Apple Time Capsule -- Unknown User Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2015-02-15 16:53 +0000
                Re: Apple Time Capsule -- Unknown User Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> - 2015-02-15 18:01 -0500
                Re: Apple Time Capsule -- Unknown User Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2015-02-16 01:38 +0000
                Re: Apple Time Capsule -- Unknown User Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> - 2015-02-16 12:04 -0500
  Re: Apple Time Capsule -- Unknown User Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> - 2015-02-09 09:21 -0500
    Re: Apple Time Capsule -- Unknown User TaliesinSoft <taliesinsoft@me.com> - 2015-02-09 14:05 -0600
      Re: Apple Time Capsule -- Unknown User Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> - 2015-02-09 15:32 -0500
      Re: Apple Time Capsule -- Unknown User Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2015-02-09 20:58 +0000

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