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External monitor color problem

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  External monitor color problem Cameo <cameo@invalid.invalid> - 2011-11-01 20:49 -0700
    Re: External monitor color problem mike <spamme9@gmail.com> - 2011-11-02 04:03 -0700
      Re: External monitor color problem Cameo <cameo@invalid.invalid> - 2011-11-02 11:09 -0700
        Re: External monitor color problem mike <spamme9@gmail.com> - 2011-11-02 11:17 -0700
        Re: External monitor color problem Bob_Villa <pheeh.zero@gmail.com> - 2011-11-02 15:23 -0700
          Re: External monitor color problem mike <spamme9@gmail.com> - 2011-11-02 15:58 -0700
            Re: External monitor color problem Cameo <cameo@invalid.invalid> - 2011-11-04 11:26 -0700
              Re: External monitor color problem "BillW50" <BillW50@aol.kom> - 2011-11-04 17:26 -0500
              Re: External monitor color problem mike <spamme9@gmail.com> - 2011-11-04 15:44 -0700
                Re: External monitor color problem "BillW50" <BillW50@aol.kom> - 2011-11-04 18:17 -0500
                  Re: External monitor color problem Cameo <cameo@invalid.invalid> - 2011-11-04 21:29 -0700
                    Re: External monitor color problem mike <spamme9@gmail.com> - 2011-11-05 02:25 -0700
                      Re: External monitor color problem Cameo <cameo@invalid.invalid> - 2011-11-05 11:26 -0700
                        Re: External monitor color problem "~misfit~" <sore_n_happy@nospamyahoo.com.au> - 2011-11-06 12:24 +1300
                          Re: External monitor color problem Cameo <cameo@invalid.invalid> - 2011-11-05 19:27 -0700
                        Re: External monitor color problem BillW50 <BillW50@aol.kom> - 2011-11-06 05:06 -0600
                      Re: External monitor color problem "~misfit~" <sore_n_happy@nospamyahoo.com.au> - 2011-11-06 12:16 +1300
                        Re: External monitor color problem Cameo <cameo@invalid.invalid> - 2011-11-05 19:50 -0700
                          Re: External monitor color problem BillW50 <BillW50@aol.kom> - 2011-11-07 07:29 -0600
                            Re: External monitor color problem Cameo <cameo@invalid.invalid> - 2011-11-07 12:10 -0800
                              Re: External monitor color problem BillW50 <BillW50@aol.kom> - 2011-11-07 16:20 -0600
                                Re: External monitor color problem Cameo <cameo@invalid.invalid> - 2011-11-10 09:49 -0800
                                  Re: External monitor color problem BillW50 <BillW50@aol.kom> - 2011-11-10 12:49 -0600
                                    Re: External monitor color problem Cameo <cameo@invalid.invalid> - 2011-11-10 18:32 -0800
                                      Re: External monitor color problem Cameo <cameo@invalid.invalid> - 2011-11-10 18:34 -0800
                                    Re: External monitor color problem wrat@panix.com (the wharf rat) - 2011-11-12 09:45 +0000
                                      Re: External monitor color problem Cameo <cameo@invalid.invalid> - 2011-11-12 11:41 -0800
                                        Re: External monitor color problem Bert <bert@iphouse.com> - 2011-11-12 19:47 +0000
                                          Re: External monitor color problem Cameo <cameo@invalid.invalid> - 2011-11-12 14:31 -0800
                                            Re: External monitor color problem wrat@panix.com (the wharf rat) - 2011-11-13 04:43 +0000
                                        Re: External monitor color problem wrat@panix.com (the wharf rat) - 2011-11-13 01:25 +0000
                                          Re: External monitor color problem Cameo <cameo@invalid.invalid> - 2011-11-12 18:57 -0800
                                            Re: External monitor color problem wrat@panix.com (the wharf rat) - 2011-11-13 04:44 +0000
                                  Re: External monitor color problem mike <spamme9@gmail.com> - 2011-11-10 10:50 -0800
                                  Re: External monitor color problem wrat@panix.com (the wharf rat) - 2011-11-12 09:43 +0000
                                    Re: External monitor color problem Cameo <cameo@invalid.invalid> - 2011-11-12 11:46 -0800
                                      Re: External monitor color problem mike <spamme9@gmail.com> - 2011-11-12 12:42 -0800
          Re: External monitor color problem Cameo <cameo@invalid.invalid> - 2011-11-04 11:19 -0700
    Re: External monitor color problem "BillW50" <BillW50@aol.kom> - 2011-11-02 06:10 -0500
      Re: External monitor color problem Cameo <cameo@invalid.invalid> - 2011-11-02 10:55 -0700
        Re: External monitor color problem BillW50 <BillW50@aol.kom> - 2011-11-06 04:54 -0600
          Re: External monitor color problem Cameo <cameo@invalid.invalid> - 2011-11-06 10:29 -0800
            Re: External monitor color problem BillW50 <BillW50@aol.kom> - 2011-11-06 12:48 -0600
    Re: External monitor color problem "Ryan P." <ryannewguy@nogmailjunk.com> - 2011-11-07 20:48 -0600
      Re: External monitor color problem Cameo <cameo@invalid.invalid> - 2011-11-08 00:49 -0800
        Re: External monitor color problem "Ryan P." <ryannewguy@nogmailjunk.com> - 2011-11-10 20:03 -0600

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#774 — External monitor color problem

I've been using my HP tx1410us notebook with an external LCD monitor at 
a nice 1920 x 1080 res for several years without any problem till a few 
months ago when the red color from the RGB display started to disappear 
periodically, leaving the display in that greenish blue color. The 
notebook's own display, however, looks fine.

First I thought maybe the monitor was at fault, but because I also use 
the same monitor at the same res with a desktop, I could see that all 
colors show fine when the KVM switch is showing the desktop's display.

Then I researched this problem with Google and I found that this is a 
pretty common problem with HP laptops, even on newer ones than mine 
though the common denominator for these failing laptops might be the 
NVIDIA GeForce Go 6150 video chip.

I've noticed some guy on the net suggesting to connect the monitor to 
the laptop's USB2 port via a USB-to-VGA adapter and forget about the 
faulty external VGA connector. I wonder if anybody here has used such an 
adapter with an external monitor and how did it work out. My immediate 
problem would be whether such an adapter could power a monitor at the 
1920 x 1080 HD resolution. I don't think USB2 could provide fast enough 
signal throughput for that but that's my monitor's optimal display res 
at 60 Hz. Unfortunately my notebook, besides the VGA port, only has 
S-Video-out jack but does not have an HDMI port even though my monitor does.

Any suggestions how I might proceed?

Thanks.

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#775

Cameo wrote:
> I've been using my HP tx1410us notebook with an external LCD monitor at 
> a nice 1920 x 1080 res for several years without any problem till a few 
> months ago when the red color from the RGB display started to disappear 
> periodically, leaving the display in that greenish blue color. The 
> notebook's own display, however, looks fine.
> 
> First I thought maybe the monitor was at fault, but because I also use 
> the same monitor at the same res with a desktop, I could see that all 
> colors show fine when the KVM switch is showing the desktop's display.
> 
> Then I researched this problem with Google and I found that this is a 
> pretty common problem with HP laptops, even on newer ones than mine 
> though the common denominator for these failing laptops might be the 
> NVIDIA GeForce Go 6150 video chip.
> 
> I've noticed some guy on the net suggesting to connect the monitor to 
> the laptop's USB2 port via a USB-to-VGA adapter and forget about the 
> faulty external VGA connector. I wonder if anybody here has used such an 
> adapter with an external monitor and how did it work out. My immediate 
> problem would be whether such an adapter could power a monitor at the 
> 1920 x 1080 HD resolution. I don't think USB2 could provide fast enough 
> signal throughput for that but that's my monitor's optimal display res 
> at 60 Hz. Unfortunately my notebook, besides the VGA port, only has 
> S-Video-out jack but does not have an HDMI port even though my monitor 
> does.
> 
> Any suggestions how I might proceed?
> 
> Thanks.
Check the solder connections on the vga connector.  It's subject to a lot
of stress connnecting/disconnecting/yanking on the connector.

I've had situations where one of the pin sockets inside the vga
connector got stretched to the point it became intermittent.

If none of that works, you may have the BGA solder ball cracking
problem characteristic of HP laptops and nvidia chips.

Cleaning the gunk out of the fan and heat sink and applying more high 
conductivity
thermal compound to the chip heatsink won't fix the problem, but may
reduce the frequency of the intermittent and slow the progress.

A more permanent solution is to have the chip reflowed.  There are places
that specialize in that.  You can find all kinds of info on DIY reflow
on youtube.

I've attempted three nvidia chip reflows using equipment and temperature 
controls
WAY more accurate than the youtube videos, but short of commercial
reflow products.
Out of three attempts, I fixed two.
The third caught fire and I knocked off some chips extinguishing
the conflagration.

My point is that, while it can be done, you're not likely to succeed
with your first attempt.

The real solution is to remove the chip completely and have the solder
balls replaced.  I wouldn't expect you'd be able to do that successfully
on your first attempt with equipment costing less than a replacement laptop.

If it's still working on the internal display, you can do what many
people are doing....sell it on EBAY...works good. ;-(

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#784

On 11/2/2011 4:03 AM, mike wrote:
> Check the solder connections on the vga connector. It's subject to a lot
> of stress connnecting/disconnecting/yanking on the connector.
>
> I've had situations where one of the pin sockets inside the vga
> connector got stretched to the point it became intermittent.
>
> If none of that works, you may have the BGA solder ball cracking
> problem characteristic of HP laptops and nvidia chips.
>
> Cleaning the gunk out of the fan and heat sink and applying more high
> conductivity
> thermal compound to the chip heatsink won't fix the problem, but may
> reduce the frequency of the intermittent and slow the progress.
>
> A more permanent solution is to have the chip reflowed. There are places
> that specialize in that. You can find all kinds of info on DIY reflow
> on youtube.
>
> I've attempted three nvidia chip reflows using equipment and temperature
> controls
> WAY more accurate than the youtube videos, but short of commercial
> reflow products.
> Out of three attempts, I fixed two.
> The third caught fire and I knocked off some chips extinguishing
> the conflagration.
>
> My point is that, while it can be done, you're not likely to succeed
> with your first attempt.

There is the rub though: I need to succeed the first time or I make the 
laptop completely useless.

> The real solution is to remove the chip completely and have the solder
> balls replaced. I wouldn't expect you'd be able to do that successfully
> on your first attempt with equipment costing less than a replacement
> laptop.

I've done plenty soldering in my younger years. Heck, I even soldered my 
first PC entirely from a Heatkit in '82 and it booted up on the first 
attempt. But the pinpoint accuracy required in soldering on today's 
notebooks is not comparable to that prior experience, I'm afraid. My 
eyes are also not as good and my hands are not as steady, either. I also 
looked what it would take to get to the guts of this laptop and that's 
not encouraging. So, I guess, I am stuck, but thanks for your 
suggestions nevertheless. They confirmed what I suspected was the problem.

> If it's still working on the internal display, you can do what many
> people are doing....sell it on EBAY...works good. ;-(

I would hate to sell something with hidden problem.

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#785

Cameo wrote:
> On 11/2/2011 4:03 AM, mike wrote:
>> Check the solder connections on the vga connector. It's subject to a lot
>> of stress connnecting/disconnecting/yanking on the connector.
>>
>> I've had situations where one of the pin sockets inside the vga
>> connector got stretched to the point it became intermittent.
>>
>> If none of that works, you may have the BGA solder ball cracking
>> problem characteristic of HP laptops and nvidia chips.
>>
>> Cleaning the gunk out of the fan and heat sink and applying more high
>> conductivity
>> thermal compound to the chip heatsink won't fix the problem, but may
>> reduce the frequency of the intermittent and slow the progress.
>>
>> A more permanent solution is to have the chip reflowed. There are places
>> that specialize in that. You can find all kinds of info on DIY reflow
>> on youtube.
>>
>> I've attempted three nvidia chip reflows using equipment and temperature
>> controls
>> WAY more accurate than the youtube videos, but short of commercial
>> reflow products.
>> Out of three attempts, I fixed two.
>> The third caught fire and I knocked off some chips extinguishing
>> the conflagration.
>>
>> My point is that, while it can be done, you're not likely to succeed
>> with your first attempt.
> 
> There is the rub though: I need to succeed the first time or I make the 
> laptop completely useless.
> 
>> The real solution is to remove the chip completely and have the solder
>> balls replaced. I wouldn't expect you'd be able to do that successfully
>> on your first attempt with equipment costing less than a replacement
>> laptop.
> 
> I've done plenty soldering in my younger years. Heck, I even soldered my 
> first PC entirely from a Heatkit in '82 and it booted up on the first 
> attempt. But the pinpoint accuracy required in soldering on today's 
> notebooks is not comparable to that prior experience, I'm afraid.

The connections on the vga socket are like what you're used to, only 
smaller.
The BGA of the video chip has hundreds of tiny solder balls hidden
completely under the chip.  There is zero access to them.  Only option
is to heat the board and the chip to cause the solder to melt and hopefully
"reflow" creating a good connection.

  My
> eyes are also not as good and my hands are not as steady, either. I also 
> looked what it would take to get to the guts of this laptop and that's 
> not encouraging. So, I guess, I am stuck, but thanks for your 
> suggestions nevertheless. They confirmed what I suspected was the problem.

I didn't confirm anything, just gave you some likely options.  There are
other things that could go wrong in the path from graphics memory to the
external vga socket.  A cracked resistor could cause the same symptom.
Take it apart and inspect all the parts/connections in that area.

My money's on the graphics chip solder, but that's by no means the only 
possibility.
> 
>> If it's still working on the internal display, you can do what many
>> people are doing....sell it on EBAY...works good. ;-(
> 
> I would hate to sell something with hidden problem.
I agree, but I'd bet that the majority of laptops of this vintage on ebay
are having similar issues.
> 
> 
> 

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#788

On Nov 2, 1:09 pm, Cameo <ca...@invalid.invalid> wrote:

>
> I would hate to sell something with hidden problem.

People won't buy a laptop to hook-up to a monitor...they purchase it
for portability. (in most cases)

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#789

Bob_Villa wrote:
> On Nov 2, 1:09 pm, Cameo <ca...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> 
>> I would hate to sell something with hidden problem.
> 
> People won't buy a laptop to hook-up to a monitor...they purchase it
> for portability. (in most cases)
> 
I agree, but if the fault in question is caused by bad BGA solder,
it is likely that it will soon spread to the internal display.

I've been buying laptops of that vintage for a buck.  Lately, they've
ALL had some sort of nvidia related problem.  Stated another way,
the vintage is such that most of the laptops showing up at garage
sales have nvidia chips and currently or potentially have problems.
At a buck, I don't care.  If I'd paid ebay prices, I'd be pissed.

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#799

On 11/2/2011 3:58 PM, mike wrote:
> I've been buying laptops of that vintage for a buck. Lately, they've
> ALL had some sort of nvidia related problem. Stated another way,
> the vintage is such that most of the laptops showing up at garage
> sales have nvidia chips and currently or potentially have problems.
> At a buck, I don't care. If I'd paid ebay prices, I'd be pissed.

What brand laptops are considered of the best quality these days? I'm 
not sure if there is any reliable rating of them out there. I would 
consider buying a new one as the prices are pretty low right now. I 
think we could forget about HPs but it's harder to forget about NVIDIA 
chips because not only HP uses them.

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#801

In news:j91aoi$4pe$1@dont-email.me,
Cameo <cameo@invalid.invalid> typed:
> On 11/2/2011 3:58 PM, mike wrote:
>> I've been buying laptops of that vintage for a buck. Lately, they've
>> ALL had some sort of nvidia related problem. Stated another way,
>> the vintage is such that most of the laptops showing up at garage
>> sales have nvidia chips and currently or potentially have problems.
>> At a buck, I don't care. If I'd paid ebay prices, I'd be pissed.
>
> What brand laptops are considered of the best quality these days? I'm
> not sure if there is any reliable rating of them out there. I would
> consider buying a new one as the prices are pretty low right now. I
> think we could forget about HPs but it's harder to forget about NVIDIA
> chips because not only HP uses them.

Consumer Reports did a huge survey of laptop manufactures and 
reliability over a period of 5 years among  consumers. They found all 
manufactures (the top ones anyway) ranked 16% to 21% with major 
problems.

I don't disagree with their findings, but I think they missed the boat. 
As all manufactures has their rock solid models and their lemons. The 
manufacture to me doesn't matter that much. Although the chips they use 
does.

And both ATI and NVIDIA use mainly the same video chips they use in 
desktops in laptops too. They both create lots of heat and gets very 
hot. This in turn reduces the longevity of the whole laptop. Intel 
integrated graphics doesn't have that problem since there is no video 
chip per se, but makes the CPU handle it all. This surprisingly works 
really well without much heat.

Where this Intel integrated graphics doesn't work well (okay for some 
stuff it is ok) is high demanding graphics like 3D games. Here we need 
ATI or NVIDIA graphics and have to deal with the extra heat and reduced 
longevity. Yeah I am saying this with two NVIDIA video cards in this 
Alienware M9700 laptop (I now have three more just like this one). And 
video card failure is very common here too. Although I do maintenance on 
them and none of them has failed while I had them (knock on wood).

So if you want a laptop that will last and last, stay away from those 
laptops that uses GPUs (aka video chips). A lot of laptops can suffer 
from DC jack failures too. Why I haven't experienced one myself 
(although I bought used ones that did), I like models that offer a 
docking station an option and then you don't have to worry about the DC 
jack.

Another thing that fails a lot on laptops is the florescent lamp or the 
inverter. If you use an external monitor a lot, no big deal. But running 
a laptop with the internal screen 24/7 is likely to fail after 2 years. 
The inverter or the lamp costs about 30 bucks each (used and sometimes 
new), so it isn't that expensive. Although the lamps can be very 
difficult to replace. Most people replace the whole LCD panel which can 
be very expensive.

If you want to avoid the whole lamp and inverter thing, look for a 
laptop that uses LEDs for backlighting. LEDs can fail, but they use a 
dozen or more LEDs and if one fails it isn't the end of the world. Plus 
they last far longer than any inverter or lamps too.

-- 
Bill
Alienware M9700 ('06 era) - OE-QuoteFix v1.19.2
AMD Turion 64 ML44 2.4GHz - 2GB - Windows XP SP3 

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#803

Cameo wrote:
> On 11/2/2011 3:58 PM, mike wrote:
>> I've been buying laptops of that vintage for a buck. Lately, they've
>> ALL had some sort of nvidia related problem. Stated another way,
>> the vintage is such that most of the laptops showing up at garage
>> sales have nvidia chips and currently or potentially have problems.
>> At a buck, I don't care. If I'd paid ebay prices, I'd be pissed.
> 
> What brand laptops are considered of the best quality these days? I'm 
> not sure if there is any reliable rating of them out there. I would 
> consider buying a new one as the prices are pretty low right now. I 
> think we could forget about HPs but it's harder to forget about NVIDIA 
> chips because not only HP uses them.
> 
I'm not the one to ask.
Last new laptop I bought was 18 years ago.  Cost me about 5X my TOTAL
expense on computer hardware since.

With patience, you can buy a 2.6GHz P4 laptop for a buck at a garage sale.
I find that it makes the price and features of new laptops irrelevant.

The secret is to buy them ahead of time, before you need 'em.
Once your primary laptop goes South, it's too late to find a bargain.

Bottom line, I don't think you can predict on new stuff.
Technology is changing fast.  Name brand vendors buy from the lowest 
bidder.  By the time the problems show up, it's too
late not to buy it.
Any decent review with sufficient accumulated history is gonna be
on a model you can't buy any more.
In the past, people have liked the Toughbooks, but you'll PAY big time 
for them.

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#805

In news:j91pvq$fm1$1@dont-email.me,
mike <spamme9@gmail.com> typed:
> With patience, you can buy a 2.6GHz P4 laptop for a buck at a garage
> sale. I find that it makes the price and features of new laptops
> irrelevant.

I heard this before but never shopped there.

> Technology is changing fast.  Name brand vendors buy from the lowest
> bidder.

Oh Mike! That isn't totally true. Sure most manufactures have their low 
end models which this is true. But some also have their high end models 
like their business class which generally use far better components.

Then there are those high end gamer laptops (like this Alienware) that 
can cost over $4000 a piece when they first came out. They don't use any 
shortcuts or bargain priced components. Heck they wouldn't work if they 
did. As the raw performance is what makes them great. Alienware isn't 
alone in this regard, as Dell as their XPS line and HP has their DV 
line. High end gamer laptops come as a price though. As they are not 
cheap and are not likely to survive years of use due to all of the 
excessive heat.

> In the past, people have liked the Toughbooks, but you'll PAY big time
> for them.

Well that Consumer Reports survey back in 2009 reported that Dell and 
Lenevo (aka IBM Toughbooks) ranked dead last as far as reliability. 
Although I don't think of them as that bad (although I agree they cost 
more, not as much as gamer laptops though). I think the people's 
expectations was higher than their experiences. Thus why the lower 
rating.

-- 
Bill
Alienware M9700 ('06 era) - OE-QuoteFix v1.19.2
AMD Turion 64 ML44 2.4GHz - 2GB - Windows XP SP3 

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#806

On 11/4/2011 4:17 PM, BillW50 wrote:

> Oh Mike! That isn't totally true. Sure most manufactures have their low
> end models which this is true. But some also have their high end models
> like their business class which generally use far better components.

I think you're right. At Boeing we used Dell laptops and they seemed to 
be pretty solid. I figure Dell would make sure of that as it was a huge 
contract with them

> Well that Consumer Reports survey back in 2009 reported that Dell and
> Lenevo (aka IBM Toughbooks) ranked dead last as far as reliability.
> Although I don't think of them as that bad (although I agree they cost
> more, not as much as gamer laptops though). I think the people's
> expectations was higher than their experiences. Thus why the lower
> rating.

Interesting because about a year or so ago some guys wrote that Dell and 
Lenovo had the best record. I don't know what to believe anymore.

Oh, BTW, I wonder if I would be able to use that external monitor via 
the a dock plugged into the expansion port on my notebook. I should have 
thought about it earlier, but I totally forgot about that port. I think 
I still might be able to find the HP dock that was made for this 
particular port. Besides that, I also have an ExpressCard/34 option. I 
think there are VGA adapters for thise kind of cards.

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#808

Cameo wrote:
> On 11/4/2011 4:17 PM, BillW50 wrote:
> 
>> Oh Mike! That isn't totally true. Sure most manufactures have their low
>> end models which this is true. But some also have their high end models
>> like their business class which generally use far better components.

Yeah, but competitive high end models are also subject to the same 
lowest bidder selection.

Purchasing agents get bonuses based on the amount of money they save.
More than once, I got a call that the production line shut down 'cause
the purchasing department substituted an "equivalent" cheaper part...
20 week leadtime on the approved part.

There are relatively few vendors for laptops.  Even custom laptops
are constructed from components from Compal et al.
> 
> I think you're right. At Boeing we used Dell laptops and they seemed to 
> be pretty solid. I figure Dell would make sure of that as it was a huge 
> contract with them
> 
>> Well that Consumer Reports survey back in 2009 reported that Dell and
>> Lenevo (aka IBM Toughbooks) 

Toughbook was a brand name owned by Panasonic...no idea who made 'em.
They claimed to be constructed to mil-std...but not sure which standards.

ranked dead last as far as reliability.
>> Although I don't think of them as that bad (although I agree they cost
>> more, not as much as gamer laptops though). I think the people's
>> expectations was higher than their experiences. Thus why the lower
>> rating.
> 
> Interesting because about a year or so ago some guys wrote that Dell and 
> Lenovo had the best record. I don't know what to believe anymore.
> 
> Oh, BTW, I wonder if I would be able to use that external monitor via 
> the a dock plugged into the expansion port on my notebook. 

If you can find a dock and it fixes it, you can probably fix the laptop
by resoldering the VGA connector and a few parts between there to the 
graphics chip.

I should have
> thought about it earlier, but I totally forgot about that port. I think 
> I still might be able to find the HP dock that was made for this 
> particular port. Besides that, I also have an ExpressCard/34 option. I 
> think there are VGA adapters for thise kind of cards.
> 
If you can find a graphics card that plugs in, maybe.
IF it's an adapter that channels the existing frame buffer, probably not.

I assume you want high resolution output.  Not much market for graphics
cards that plug into laptops already having high resolution screens.
Cardbus, expresscards and similar stuff have serious mechanical problems.
There's just not enough area on the end for a robust connection.

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#810

On 11/5/2011 2:25 AM, mike wrote:
> If you can find a dock and it fixes it, you can probably fix the laptop
> by resoldering the VGA connector and a few parts between there to the
> graphics chip.

The idea here is that with a docking port I can just bypass the separate 
VGA port that causes me the problem and use the VGA port in the dock. I 
am assuming here that the same soldering problem may not exist where the 
expansion port pins connect to the NVIDIA card. After all the built-in 
notebook display doesn't seem to have the problem either.

>> I also have an ExpressCard/34 option. I
>> think there are VGA adapters for thise kind of cards.
>>
> If you can find a graphics card that plugs in, maybe.
> IF it's an adapter that channels the existing frame buffer, probably not.

I don't know ... my 1080p HDTV tuner works pretty well off that 
ExpressCard port. Of course I could forget about it if I tried to run my 
external monitor from it. :-( So my hope right now is in the expansion 
dock. I've found several potential sources for it, including eBay.

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#813

Somewhere on teh intarwebs Cameo wrote:
> On 11/5/2011 2:25 AM, mike wrote:
>> If you can find a dock and it fixes it, you can probably fix the
>> laptop by resoldering the VGA connector and a few parts between
>> there to the graphics chip.
>
> The idea here is that with a docking port I can just bypass the
> separate VGA port that causes me the problem and use the VGA port in
> the dock. I am assuming here that the same soldering problem may not
> exist where the expansion port pins connect to the NVIDIA card. After
> all the built-in notebook display doesn't seem to have the problem
> either.

Oh, good. You might be in luck with a dock (or port replicator) then. My 
previous reply was without knowledge of the whole thread and assuming that 
the laptop display wasn't the best as well.

Heh! I have a dock for my T60 ThinkPad that actually has a PCIe slot for 
running a seperate graphics card, (as well as a second optical / hard disk 
drive, a bunch of USB ports, a cardreader and a PSU to run all of those plus 
the laptop) theoretically allowing up to four external monitors to be run at 
once. However it's a beast of a thing and I've put it away a while back. (In 
fact I've put it away so well I couldn't find it the other day when I wanted 
to try something out!)
[snipped]
-- 
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long, way when religious belief has a 
cozy little classification in the DSM."
David Melville (in r.a.s.f1) 

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#814

On 11/5/2011 4:24 PM, ~misfit~ wrote:
> Oh, good. You might be in luck with a dock (or port replicator) then. My
> previous reply was without knowledge of the whole thread and assuming that
> the laptop display wasn't the best as well.
>
> Heh! I have a dock for my T60 ThinkPad that actually has a PCIe slot for
> running a seperate graphics card, (as well as a second optical / hard disk
> drive, a bunch of USB ports, a cardreader and a PSU to run all of those plus
> the laptop) theoretically allowing up to four external monitors to be run at
> once. However it's a beast of a thing and I've put it away a while back. (In
> fact I've put it away so well I couldn't find it the other day when I wanted
> to try something out!)

If this dock I'm planning to get works, I'll be sorry I did not buy it 
along with the notebook in the first place. It also replicates a bunch 
of ports. You get a better idea if you look at its setup guide that 
shows up as a PDF doc on the bottom of the following web page:

http://www.manualowl.com/m/Hewlett-Packard/KN744AA/Manual/20362

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#817

On 11/5/2011 1:26 PM, Cameo wrote:
> I don't know ... my 1080p HDTV tuner works pretty well off that
> ExpressCard port. Of course I could forget about it if I tried to run my
> external monitor from it. :-( So my hope right now is in the expansion
> dock. I've found several potential sources for it, including eBay.

I have two 1080p HDTV tuners run from USB ports. They too work really 
well. Although the TV tuner compresses the video before it travels down 
to the USB.

Interesting enough, I can easily stream the video from one of the TV 
tuners to any other computer on the home network and not lose a single 
frame. Although if I use Microsoft Remote Desktop Connection to logon to 
the laptop with the TV Tuner card, the video drops down to about one 
frame per second through this path. Huge difference, eh?

-- 
Bill
Gateway M465e ('06 era) - Thunderbird v3.0
Centrino Core Duo T2400 1.83GHz - 2GB - Windows XP SP3

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#812

Somewhere on teh intarwebs mike wrote:
> Cameo wrote:
> What brand laptops are considered of the best quality these days? I'm
> not sure if there is any reliable rating of them out there. I would
> consider buying a new one as the prices are pretty low right now. I
> think we could forget about HPs but it's harder to forget about NVIDIA
> chips because not only HP uses them.

The problem wasn't actually nVidia per-se, rather it was nVidia's 
implementation of the European RoHS lead-free solder. They struggled for the 
first couple of years to find a reliable formulation that could cope with 
varying degrees of mechanical stress across a large soldered 
ball-grid-array. Their early attempts mostly ended with some of the contacts 
at the outer edge of the array where expansion was greatest fracturing, 
causing "GPU failure".

This problem could be ameliorated to a large degree by cooling the laptop 
more than the manufacturer designed, either by tweaking the fan to run 
faster or all of the time. (As it was thermal cycling that caused the 
problem.) The joints would handle it for a certain amount of expansion - 
contraction cycles and then cry "No more!" and fracture. Another way to 
reduce the chances of it happening was / is to keep the laptop on 24/7... Of 
course only any good if you're using it as a desktop replacement.

It's my understanding that the problem has largely gone away in more modern 
laptops as better lead-free solders have been found and better assembly 
practices have been developed to compensate for the (bloody stupid) RoHS 
movement. nVidia's problems with it started around ~2007 but (I believe) 
have been solved since around 2010 or so.

[snip]
>>> Well that Consumer Reports survey back in 2009 reported that Dell
>>> and Lenevo (aka IBM Toughbooks)


I think that you mean IBM ThinkPads. The last, best ThinkPad made was the 
T60 with a C2D CPU and a 15" 4:3 IPS (FlexView) screen. It's what I use as 
my home machine (using an X32 on the road) and is powerful, rugged and very 
reliable. Later Lenovo-only ThinkPads aren't, as IBM ThinkPads were, 
head-and-shoulders above other laptops.

> Toughbook was a brand name owned by Panasonic...no idea who made 'em.
> They claimed to be constructed to mil-std...but not sure which
> standards.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toughbook

> ranked dead last as far as reliability.
>>> Although I don't think of them as that bad (although I agree they
>>> cost more, not as much as gamer laptops though). I think the
>>> people's expectations was higher than their experiences. Thus why
>>> the lower rating.
>>
>> Interesting because about a year or so ago some guys wrote that Dell
>> and Lenovo had the best record. I don't know what to believe anymore.
>>
>> Oh, BTW, I wonder if I would be able to use that external monitor via
>> the a dock plugged into the expansion port on my notebook.
>
> If you can find a dock and it fixes it, you can probably fix the
> laptop by resoldering the VGA connector and a few parts between there
> to the graphics chip.

Yep. I haven't read all of this thread but, if it is the dreaded nVidia / 
RoHS problem then a dock won't help as it's essentially the whole graphics 
daughter-assembly parting company with the motherboard that's the problem. 
Simply using a dock won't fix that.

>> I should have
>> thought about it earlier, but I totally forgot about that port. I
>> think I still might be able to find the HP dock that was made for
>> this particular port. Besides that, I also have an ExpressCard/34
>> option. I think there are VGA adapters for thise kind of cards.

ViDock's are an option if the laptop is to be used solely on a desk.

Oh dear! It seems that they're discontinued: 
http://www.villagetronic.com/vidock/index.html  maybe one can be had from 
ebay?

> If you can find a graphics card that plugs in, maybe.
> IF it's an adapter that channels the existing frame buffer, probably
> not.
> I assume you want high resolution output.  Not much market for
> graphics cards that plug into laptops already having high resolution
> screens. Cardbus, expresscards and similar stuff have serious
> mechanical problems. There's just not enough area on the end for a
> robust connection.

Expresscards have a single 2.5GB/sec PCIe 'lane' and can be used for low-end 
graphics solutions, systems that would be on par with what you might find in 
a laptop that's a few years old. These types of cards are quite capable of 
running a couple hi-res monitors but won't turn your laptop into a gaming 
beast. That's what the ViDock did; Took the ExpressCard output and ran it to 
a case containing a PCIe slot and small PSU so that you could run a low to 
midrange graphics card external to your laptop.
-- 
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long, way when religious belief has a 
cozy little classification in the DSM."
David Melville (in r.a.s.f1) 

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#815

On 11/5/2011 4:16 PM, ~misfit~ wrote:
> The problem wasn't actually nVidia per-se, rather it was nVidia's
> implementation of the European RoHS lead-free solder. They struggled for the
> first couple of years to find a reliable formulation that could cope with
> varying degrees of mechanical stress across a large soldered
> ball-grid-array. Their early attempts mostly ended with some of the contacts
> at the outer edge of the array where expansion was greatest fracturing,
> causing "GPU failure".

How the heck do you know such details? Were you personally involved with 
them?

> This problem could be ameliorated to a large degree by cooling the laptop
> more than the manufacturer designed, either by tweaking the fan to run
> faster or all of the time. (As it was thermal cycling that caused the
> problem.) The joints would handle it for a certain amount of expansion -
> contraction cycles and then cry "No more!" and fracture. Another way to
> reduce the chances of it happening was / is to keep the laptop on 24/7... Of
> course only any good if you're using it as a desktop replacement.

Actually, I've been very careful in not covering the venting holes and 
even have it sit on one of those cooling platforms with its own fan but 
apparently that did not help much. Maybe it only delayed it as I've been 
seeing similar complaints on the net years before the problem manifested 
itself on my notebook.

> It's my understanding that the problem has largely gone away in more modern
> laptops as better lead-free solders have been found and better assembly
> practices have been developed to compensate for the (bloody stupid) RoHS
> movement. nVidia's problems with it started around ~2007 but (I believe)
> have been solved since around 2010 or so.

Well, I think I got mine in 2008. So that fits. Maybe I don't have to 
give up on NVIDIA for my next purchase the, huh?

> I think that you mean IBM ThinkPads. The last, best ThinkPad made was the
> T60 with a C2D CPU and a 15" 4:3 IPS (FlexView) screen. It's what I use as
> my home machine (using an X32 on the road) and is powerful, rugged and very
> reliable. Later Lenovo-only ThinkPads aren't, as IBM ThinkPads were,
> head-and-shoulders above other laptops.

That was to be expected with Chinese "quality" being built in though 
there still might be some residual IBM quality left in chinese hands. I 
assume that none of the Lenovo work is done in the US anymore.

> I haven't read all of this thread but, if it is the dreaded nVidia /
> RoHS problem then a dock won't help as it's essentially the whole graphics
> daughter-assembly parting company with the motherboard that's the problem.
> Simply using a dock won't fix that.

Oh boy, you sure know how to turn the cold shower on me! I think though 
that I will risk a cheeply bought used docking station before giving up.

> ViDock's are an option if the laptop is to be used solely on a desk.
>
> Oh dear! It seems that they're discontinued:
> http://www.villagetronic.com/vidock/index.html  maybe one can be had from
> ebay?

This is the first time I've heard about it.
>
> Expresscards have a single 2.5GB/sec PCIe 'lane' and can be used for low-end
> graphics solutions, systems that would be on par with what you might find in
> a laptop that's a few years old. These types of cards are quite capable of
> running a couple hi-res monitors but won't turn your laptop into a gaming
> beast. That's what the ViDock did; Took the ExpressCard output and ran it to
> a case containing a PCIe slot and small PSU so that you could run a low to
> midrange graphics card external to your laptop.

I figure at that price I might as well buy a new notebook. This one is 
not worth to much investment.

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#824

On 11/5/2011 9:50 PM, Cameo wrote:
> On 11/5/2011 4:16 PM, ~misfit~ wrote:
>> The problem wasn't actually nVidia per-se, rather it was nVidia's
>> implementation of the European RoHS lead-free solder. They struggled
>> for the
>> first couple of years to find a reliable formulation that could cope with
>> varying degrees of mechanical stress across a large soldered
>> ball-grid-array. Their early attempts mostly ended with some of the
>> contacts
>> at the outer edge of the array where expansion was greatest fracturing,
>> causing "GPU failure".
>
> How the heck do you know such details? Were you personally involved with
> them?

In court, we heard a different story.

Lawsuit alleges Nvidia hid chip defects
http://news.cnet.com/8301-13924_3-10037632-64.html

-- 
Bill
Alienware M9700 ('06 era) - Thunderbird v3
AMD Turion 64 ML37 2GHz - 2GB - Windows XP SP3

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#826

On 11/7/2011 5:29 AM, BillW50 wrote:
>
> In court, we heard a different story.
>
> Lawsuit alleges Nvidia hid chip defects
> http://news.cnet.com/8301-13924_3-10037632-64.html

Thanks, Bill. I was aware of a lot of new owners of HP notebooks similar 
to mine who were complaining about two years ago but I tended to dismiss 
them because I didn't experience any of it till a few months ago. I 
figured many people perhaps used those 12.1" displays in a situation 
where the vent holes were partially covered, thus restricting air flow. 
Keeping them on one's laptop would do that. A couple days ago I also 
noticed the class action lawsuit on an HP forum but I was already too 
late to join. However, your article provides more details than I knew 
about. On the other hand, most of the complaints I was aware of 
concerned the NVIDIA GeForce Go 6150 (UMA) GPU which to my knowledge is 
not part of the GeForce 8 series. I am also curious how they were able 
to address an essentially hardware issue (soldering) through firmware 
upgrade. Limit the video frequencies that cause more heat?
In any case, my notebook's display is still firing on all cylinders 
(colors,) but this BIOS and possibly driver upgrade issue makes me 
wonder if that could also be the answer in my case. The problem is 
though that I can't find any reference to Go 6150 anywhere on NVIDIA 
websites or on laptopvideo2go.com. I suspect it may be covered by some 
other name but I'm not sure which.

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