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Groups > comp.programming > #5640 > unrolled thread
| Started by | "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2015-08-20 18:17 -0400 |
| Last post | 2015-09-11 14:59 -0500 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 57 — 13 participants |
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What do they teach in school today? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2015-08-20 18:17 -0400
Re: What do they teach in school today? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-08-20 23:56 +0100
Re: What do they teach in school today? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-08-20 16:10 -0700
Re: What do they teach in school today? Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2015-08-20 23:55 +0000
Re: What do they teach in school today? Julio Di Egidio <julio@diegidio.name> - 2015-08-24 04:28 -0700
Re: What do they teach in school today? Leo <chris.w.l.macleod@sympatico.ca> - 2015-08-20 21:21 -0400
Re: What do they teach in school today? BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2015-08-23 09:33 -0500
Re: What do they teach in school today? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-08-23 09:47 -0700
Re: What do they teach in school today? BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2015-08-23 14:45 -0500
Re: What do they teach in school today? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2015-08-23 23:27 -0400
Re: What do they teach in school today? BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2015-08-24 09:48 -0500
Re: What do they teach in school today? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2015-08-25 00:49 -0400
Re: What do they teach in school today? BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2015-08-25 09:58 -0500
Re: What do they teach in school today? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2015-08-28 19:30 -0400
Re: What do they teach in school today? "James Harris" <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2015-09-05 20:49 +0100
Re: What do they teach in school today? BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2015-09-11 00:26 -0500
Re: What do they teach in school today? "James Harris" <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2015-09-12 10:58 +0100
Re: What do they teach in school today? BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2015-09-12 08:06 -0500
Re: What do they teach in school today? "James Harris" <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2015-09-12 15:20 +0100
Re: What do they teach in school today? BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2015-09-13 00:53 -0500
Re: What do they teach in school today? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2015-09-13 12:19 -0400
Re: What do they teach in school today? BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2015-09-14 00:32 -0500
Re: What do they teach in school today? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2015-09-14 07:17 -0400
Re: What do they teach in school today? BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2015-09-14 09:29 -0500
Re: What do they teach in school today? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2015-09-12 13:11 -0400
Re: What do they teach in school today? "James Harris" <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2015-09-05 20:55 +0100
Re: What do they teach in school today? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2015-09-07 20:20 -0400
Re: What do they teach in school today? BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2015-09-11 00:44 -0500
Re: What do they teach in school today? BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2015-09-11 08:29 -0500
Re: What do they teach in school today? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-09-11 17:05 +0100
Re: What do they teach in school today? Mark Carroll <mtbc@bcs.org> - 2015-09-11 17:07 +0100
Re: What do they teach in school today? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-09-11 17:27 +0100
Re: What do they teach in school today? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2015-09-12 12:51 -0400
Re: What do they teach in school today? "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> - 2015-09-11 14:55 -0500
Re: What do they teach in school today? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2015-09-12 12:54 -0400
Re: What do they teach in school today? BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2015-09-11 17:52 -0500
Re: What do they teach in school today? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-09-12 00:23 +0100
Re: What do they teach in school today? BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2015-09-11 22:45 -0500
Re: What do they teach in school today? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2015-09-12 12:56 -0400
Re: What do they teach in school today? "James Harris" <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2015-09-12 11:04 +0100
Re: What do they teach in school today? BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2015-09-12 08:10 -0500
Re: What do they teach in school today? "James Harris" <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2015-09-12 15:24 +0100
Re: What do they teach in school today? Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-09-12 15:36 +0100
Re: What do they teach in school today? BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2015-09-12 23:24 -0500
Re: What do they teach in school today? Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-09-16 13:08 -0500
Re: What do they teach in school today? Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2015-09-16 18:54 +0000
Re: What do they teach in school today? Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-09-17 00:15 -0500
Re: What do they teach in school today? Chad <cdalten@gmail.com> - 2015-09-25 21:08 -0700
Re: What do they teach in school today? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2015-09-12 12:49 -0400
Re: What do they teach in school today? BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2015-09-12 19:56 -0500
Re: What do they teach in school today? "James Harris" <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2015-09-05 21:21 +0100
Re: What do they teach in school today? Mark Carroll <mtbc@bcs.org> - 2015-09-05 22:54 +0100
Re: What do they teach in school today? "James Harris" <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2015-09-05 23:17 +0100
Re: What do they teach in school today? Mark Carroll <mtbc@bcs.org> - 2015-09-06 09:59 +0100
Re: What do they teach in school today? "James Harris" <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2015-09-06 11:11 +0100
Re: What do they teach in school today? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2015-09-07 19:59 -0400
Re: What do they teach in school today? "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> - 2015-09-11 14:59 -0500
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| From | "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-09-13 12:19 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <MPG.305f6c26d44d4995989b26@news.eternal-september.org> |
| In reply to | #5858 |
In article <mt33a3$lpf$1@news.albasani.net>, cr88192@hotmail.com says... > > On 9/12/2015 9:20 AM, James Harris wrote: > > > > "BGB" <cr88192@hotmail.com> wrote in message > > news:mt18a8$3ja$1@news.albasani.net... > > > > ... > > > >> I suspect most of why I always did programming before, was because it > >> was a hobby I could do for free, unlike electronics where one is > >> basically blowing lots of money on electronic components and similar > >> (like, needing lots of different transistors for different operating > >> ranges, motors are kind of expensive, ...). > >> > >> though, making things IRL, you can make something that is "actually > >> there". though code also has its merits, but I have reached a point of > >> "no one cares", which does pose a limit. > > > > Yeah. I think a number of us have personal projects that are, well, > > personal; no one else would be interested in them. Perhaps that's our > > lot because we are writing them for ourselves and in some degree of > > isolation. At least if we are working on something as part of a team > > then the client and the other team members will have a shared interest. > > That can have its downsides, though, depending on their attitudes! > > > > pretty much. > > I have my video-compression stuff, and no one cares. > > I tend to focus mostly on high-speed low-complexity designs, as the main > alternative (low-speed high-complexity) is already pretty well covered > (H.264). it has been personally useful to some extent for my own uses > (capturing the desktop at full resolution, or streaming video from my > robots). > > my compiler stuff is similarly niche. people don't care I suspect > because generally I have ended up using it to run: a C variant; another > language which is generally pretty solidly in the "extended C family". > > but, "useful for my purposes" isn't really leading to anything "clearly > different" from mainstream languages. > > but, personally, I saw little gain in difference for difference sake, > nor in trying to specify how programming "should" be done (my thinking > being more that people will do whatever is useful for them, and that > language design should provide mechanism and not policy). > > > but, recently I am mostly like, "meh whatever", as I start work on > trying to build something resembling the Motobug from the Sonic the > Hedgehog series. > > but, it is cheap/lazy, and maintains balance via counterweights. That your compilers are niche is less important than that you can actually write compilers. That says you've got major skillz. Is that information on your resume? From what you're saying here, IMO, if you're not making a large income right now it's not because you have an education problem or an experience problem, it's because you have a communication problem. You clearly have in-demand skills. Not compiler-writing per se, but the fact that you can write compilers says that you can perform a programming task that is commonly regarded as difficult, suggesting that you can perform other programming tasks that are also regarded as difficult. Searching for work is a different skill set from doing that work--that means that very talented people often are un- or under-employed because they never learned the job-finding skill set, only the job-doing skill set. A lot of people have trouble with this notion--I know I did. This isn't really the place to do a career-coaching seminar though. Simplest thing to do though--figure out where you want to work--make a list of 50-100 companies, and then research and target each one--no one- size-fits-all resume, there should be one for each company and for each position within the company. Don't forget to follow up with phone calls, thank you notes, etc. Check out groups where people who do the kind of work you're interested in might be found--"Meet Up" <http://www.meetup.com/> is a good tool for this. Go to meetings, participate, talk to people. When an opening comes up you may get the inside track. Most people who get hired do it through networking. Oh, and learn to chat people up wherever you are. Standing in line in the supermarket for example. You never know who you're going to be talking to. Everybody eats.
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| From | BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-09-14 00:32 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <mt5mff$96r$1@news.albasani.net> |
| In reply to | #5859 |
On 9/13/2015 11:19 AM, J. Clarke wrote: > In article <mt33a3$lpf$1@news.albasani.net>, cr88192@hotmail.com says... >> >> On 9/12/2015 9:20 AM, James Harris wrote: >>> >>> "BGB" <cr88192@hotmail.com> wrote in message >>> news:mt18a8$3ja$1@news.albasani.net... >>> >>> ... >>> >>>> I suspect most of why I always did programming before, was because it >>>> was a hobby I could do for free, unlike electronics where one is >>>> basically blowing lots of money on electronic components and similar >>>> (like, needing lots of different transistors for different operating >>>> ranges, motors are kind of expensive, ...). >>>> >>>> though, making things IRL, you can make something that is "actually >>>> there". though code also has its merits, but I have reached a point of >>>> "no one cares", which does pose a limit. >>> >>> Yeah. I think a number of us have personal projects that are, well, >>> personal; no one else would be interested in them. Perhaps that's our >>> lot because we are writing them for ourselves and in some degree of >>> isolation. At least if we are working on something as part of a team >>> then the client and the other team members will have a shared interest. >>> That can have its downsides, though, depending on their attitudes! >>> >> >> pretty much. >> >> I have my video-compression stuff, and no one cares. >> >> I tend to focus mostly on high-speed low-complexity designs, as the main >> alternative (low-speed high-complexity) is already pretty well covered >> (H.264). it has been personally useful to some extent for my own uses >> (capturing the desktop at full resolution, or streaming video from my >> robots). >> >> my compiler stuff is similarly niche. people don't care I suspect >> because generally I have ended up using it to run: a C variant; another >> language which is generally pretty solidly in the "extended C family". >> >> but, "useful for my purposes" isn't really leading to anything "clearly >> different" from mainstream languages. >> >> but, personally, I saw little gain in difference for difference sake, >> nor in trying to specify how programming "should" be done (my thinking >> being more that people will do whatever is useful for them, and that >> language design should provide mechanism and not policy). >> >> >> but, recently I am mostly like, "meh whatever", as I start work on >> trying to build something resembling the Motobug from the Sonic the >> Hedgehog series. >> >> but, it is cheap/lazy, and maintains balance via counterweights. > > That your compilers are niche is less important than that you can > actually write compilers. That says you've got major skillz. Is that > information on your resume? > I mentioned both my compiler/VM, and 3D games programming experience. last time a person commented on my resume, they recommended leaving off all the programming-related stuff, as it was 'irrelevant'. but, granted, most of my life has been as a hobbyist, I have crap-all to put in the 'work experience' section, which is the main thing the person in question seemed to care about. the person in question was for hiring for jobs at a local paper mill, which makes a wide selection of brand-name toilet-paper. > From what you're saying here, IMO, if you're not making a large income > right now it's not because you have an education problem or an > experience problem, it's because you have a communication problem. You > clearly have in-demand skills. Not compiler-writing per se, but the > fact that you can write compilers says that you can perform a > programming task that is commonly regarded as difficult, suggesting that > you can perform other programming tasks that are also regarded as > difficult. > education is that one has paid the money and gone through the rituals to show that a person is allowed to do one thing or another. like, it is all about what it says on paper a person can or can't do. like, a person can also go to a diploma mill and get an instant degree and make stuff up and get a well-paid job, whether or not they actually have the skills and experience. HR people are, similarly, happy to oblige, since on-paper they are what they say they are (then they do the job and people pay them to do so all just the same). granted, this isn't an ethical solution. it is like, doing the proper thing and grinding for ones' stats in an MMO, or using a hacking tool to give themselves piles of XP and gold (say, because the game in question holds this info on the client rather than keeping it on a profile server). the GMs wont be happy about hacked stats, maybe ban them if they are found out, but otherwise pretty much everything else is the same. if a person does things on their own though, it isn't really "education", so it doesn't really count for anything. and, on the other side, if a person should know how to do something but doesn't, they can often wing it and hope no one notices the difference (and/or just say whatever will make the boss happy). > Searching for work is a different skill set from doing that work--that > means that very talented people often are un- or under-employed because > they never learned the job-finding skill set, only the job-doing skill > set. A lot of people have trouble with this notion--I know I did. > or most of the jobs are in the east or west coast areas, but not really as much in the midwestern US... these areas are more known for oil-fields, corn, hog-farms, ... and some amount of industrial manufacturing (heavy industry, ...). but, don't really want to move anywhere else for now, for various reasons. particularly not densely populated coastal areas, which are fairly likely to be a death-trap in the case of a societal collapse... > This isn't really the place to do a career-coaching seminar though. > Simplest thing to do though--figure out where you want to work--make a > list of 50-100 companies, and then research and target each one--no one- > size-fits-all resume, there should be one for each company and for each > position within the company. Don't forget to follow up with phone > calls, thank you notes, etc. > the number of programming jobs listed in local listings is generally crap-all once you eliminate everything looking for PHP and/or completely unrelated (but happening to have one or two keywords which match by some heuristic, *, ...). *: like job-search sites will go from 'programmer' to 'software engineer' to ... 'owner operator' (AKA: driving a semi-truck). eliminating any that want a degree, and this typically leaves a good solid crap-all. > Check out groups where people who do the kind of work you're interested > in might be found--"Meet Up" <http://www.meetup.com/> is a good tool for > this. Go to meetings, participate, talk to people. When an opening > comes up you may get the inside track. Most people who get hired do it > through networking. > > Oh, and learn to chat people up wherever you are. Standing in line in > the supermarket for example. You never know who you're going to be > talking to. Everybody eats. > most people at the stores use SNAP cards, I have my doubts... better luck probably at stores which don't accept SNAP cards, and thus exclude much of the general population.
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| From | "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-09-14 07:17 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <MPG.306076d71a334a47989b34@news.eternal-september.org> |
| In reply to | #5860 |
In article <mt5mff$96r$1@news.albasani.net>, cr88192@hotmail.com says... > > On 9/13/2015 11:19 AM, J. Clarke wrote: > > In article <mt33a3$lpf$1@news.albasani.net>, cr88192@hotmail.com says... > >> > >> On 9/12/2015 9:20 AM, James Harris wrote: > >>> > >>> "BGB" <cr88192@hotmail.com> wrote in message > >>> news:mt18a8$3ja$1@news.albasani.net... > >>> > >>> ... > >>> > >>>> I suspect most of why I always did programming before, was because it > >>>> was a hobby I could do for free, unlike electronics where one is > >>>> basically blowing lots of money on electronic components and similar > >>>> (like, needing lots of different transistors for different operating > >>>> ranges, motors are kind of expensive, ...). > >>>> > >>>> though, making things IRL, you can make something that is "actually > >>>> there". though code also has its merits, but I have reached a point of > >>>> "no one cares", which does pose a limit. > >>> > >>> Yeah. I think a number of us have personal projects that are, well, > >>> personal; no one else would be interested in them. Perhaps that's our > >>> lot because we are writing them for ourselves and in some degree of > >>> isolation. At least if we are working on something as part of a team > >>> then the client and the other team members will have a shared interest. > >>> That can have its downsides, though, depending on their attitudes! > >>> > >> > >> pretty much. > >> > >> I have my video-compression stuff, and no one cares. > >> > >> I tend to focus mostly on high-speed low-complexity designs, as the main > >> alternative (low-speed high-complexity) is already pretty well covered > >> (H.264). it has been personally useful to some extent for my own uses > >> (capturing the desktop at full resolution, or streaming video from my > >> robots). > >> > >> my compiler stuff is similarly niche. people don't care I suspect > >> because generally I have ended up using it to run: a C variant; another > >> language which is generally pretty solidly in the "extended C family". > >> > >> but, "useful for my purposes" isn't really leading to anything "clearly > >> different" from mainstream languages. > >> > >> but, personally, I saw little gain in difference for difference sake, > >> nor in trying to specify how programming "should" be done (my thinking > >> being more that people will do whatever is useful for them, and that > >> language design should provide mechanism and not policy). > >> > >> > >> but, recently I am mostly like, "meh whatever", as I start work on > >> trying to build something resembling the Motobug from the Sonic the > >> Hedgehog series. > >> > >> but, it is cheap/lazy, and maintains balance via counterweights. > > > > That your compilers are niche is less important than that you can > > actually write compilers. That says you've got major skillz. Is that > > information on your resume? > > > > I mentioned both my compiler/VM, and 3D games programming experience. > last time a person commented on my resume, they recommended leaving off > all the programming-related stuff, as it was 'irrelevant'. I presume you were not applying for a job as a programmer. Resume 101--read the job description. Put in _everything_ that you have ever done relevant to that job. Leave out everything else except the bare minimum necessary to fill gaps. It means a different resume for each job. It's a bit of work. > but, granted, most of my life has been as a hobbyist, I have crap-all to > put in the 'work experience' section, which is the main thing the person > in question seemed to care about. > > the person in question was for hiring for jobs at a local paper mill, > which makes a wide selection of brand-name toilet-paper. For what position were you applying? If you're looking for a job as a laborer he's right, programming experience is irrelevant. But if that's what you're looking for you're selling yourself way, way short. > > From what you're saying here, IMO, if you're not making a large income > > right now it's not because you have an education problem or an > > experience problem, it's because you have a communication problem. You > > clearly have in-demand skills. Not compiler-writing per se, but the > > fact that you can write compilers says that you can perform a > > programming task that is commonly regarded as difficult, suggesting that > > you can perform other programming tasks that are also regarded as > > difficult. > > > > education is that one has paid the money and gone through the rituals to > show that a person is allowed to do one thing or another. like, it is > all about what it says on paper a person can or can't do. I'm not saying it's not important, I'm saying that people who can actually write code that works are rare in our society, rare enough that many organizations will take a chance on somebody who doesn't have the piece of paper. > like, a person can also go to a diploma mill and get an instant degree > and make stuff up and get a well-paid job, whether or not they actually > have the skills and experience. HR people are, similarly, happy to > oblige, since on-paper they are what they say they are (then they do the > job and people pay them to do so all just the same). One trick is to end-around the HR people. The HR people can't hire you, all they can do is decide whether or not to show your resume to the people who can. If you can get directly to the people who can, then the HR people are substantially out of the loop. > granted, this isn't an ethical solution. > > it is like, doing the proper thing and grinding for ones' stats in an > MMO, or using a hacking tool to give themselves piles of XP and gold > (say, because the game in question holds this info on the client rather > than keeping it on a profile server). the GMs wont be happy about hacked > stats, maybe ban them if they are found out, but otherwise pretty much > everything else is the same. > > if a person does things on their own though, it isn't really > "education", so it doesn't really count for anything. It does to people who need capable programmers. > and, on the other side, if a person should know how to do something but > doesn't, they can often wing it and hope no one notices the difference > (and/or just say whatever will make the boss happy). In programming it's hard to "wing it". > > Searching for work is a different skill set from doing that work--that > > means that very talented people often are un- or under-employed because > > they never learned the job-finding skill set, only the job-doing skill > > set. A lot of people have trouble with this notion--I know I did. > > or most of the jobs are in the east or west coast areas, but not really > as much in the midwestern US... these areas are more known for > oil-fields, corn, hog-farms, ... and some amount of industrial > manufacturing (heavy industry, ...). > > but, don't really want to move anywhere else for now, for various > reasons. particularly not densely populated coastal areas, which are > fairly likely to be a death-trap in the case of a societal collapse... OK, now you're starting to come across as a bit, um, eccentric. Make enough to own a bunker in Montana and have a Cessna fueled up and waiting on the ramp to fly there and "societal collapse" becomes much less frightening--a decent East Coast programming job pays enough that you can do that if you're careful with your money in other ways. Oh, and don't mention this concern in an interview unless you're applying for a job at a place that caters to survivalists. > > This isn't really the place to do a career-coaching seminar though. > > Simplest thing to do though--figure out where you want to work--make a > > list of 50-100 companies, and then research and target each one--no one- > > size-fits-all resume, there should be one for each company and for each > > position within the company. Don't forget to follow up with phone > > calls, thank you notes, etc. > > > > the number of programming jobs listed in local listings is generally > crap-all once you eliminate everything looking for PHP and/or completely > unrelated (but happening to have one or two keywords which match by some > heuristic, *, ...). Most jobs aren't listed you know. That's why you have to network into them. > *: like job-search sites will go from 'programmer' to 'software > engineer' to ... 'owner operator' (AKA: driving a semi-truck). > > eliminating any that want a degree, and this typically leaves a good > solid crap-all. Apply for all of them. What does it cost you? A little time. Make sure you tailor the resume for each--it's good practice. Be sure to include a cover letter, again tailored for the position. If anybody talks to you at any point get their name and send a thank you note. Have fun with it. When you reach a point that you're having fun making the resume fit the description you'll start getting interviews. > > Check out groups where people who do the kind of work you're interested > > in might be found--"Meet Up" <http://www.meetup.com/> is a good tool for > > this. Go to meetings, participate, talk to people. When an opening > > comes up you may get the inside track. Most people who get hired do it > > through networking. > > > > Oh, and learn to chat people up wherever you are. Standing in line in > > the supermarket for example. You never know who you're going to be > > talking to. Everybody eats. > > > > most people at the stores use SNAP cards, I have my doubts... I shop at the supermarket. I don't use a SNAP card. My boss the same. Her boss the same. Her boss the same. The CEO I don't know about-- haven't had a chance to talk to him yet--he might have a full time cook. In any case, if nobody there can help you there's no harm in chatting them up. What have you got to lose? And even people on SNAP have friends and relatives. And sometimes they get hired. > better luck probably at stores which don't accept SNAP cards, and thus > exclude much of the general population.
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| From | BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-09-14 09:29 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <mt6lss$ddc$1@news.albasani.net> |
| In reply to | #5861 |
On 9/14/2015 6:17 AM, J. Clarke wrote: > In article <mt5mff$96r$1@news.albasani.net>, cr88192@hotmail.com says... >> >> On 9/13/2015 11:19 AM, J. Clarke wrote: >>> In article <mt33a3$lpf$1@news.albasani.net>, cr88192@hotmail.com says... >>>> >>>> On 9/12/2015 9:20 AM, James Harris wrote: >>>>> >>>>> "BGB" <cr88192@hotmail.com> wrote in message >>>>> news:mt18a8$3ja$1@news.albasani.net... >>>>> >>>>> ... >>>>> >>>>>> I suspect most of why I always did programming before, was because it >>>>>> was a hobby I could do for free, unlike electronics where one is >>>>>> basically blowing lots of money on electronic components and similar >>>>>> (like, needing lots of different transistors for different operating >>>>>> ranges, motors are kind of expensive, ...). >>>>>> >>>>>> though, making things IRL, you can make something that is "actually >>>>>> there". though code also has its merits, but I have reached a point of >>>>>> "no one cares", which does pose a limit. >>>>> >>>>> Yeah. I think a number of us have personal projects that are, well, >>>>> personal; no one else would be interested in them. Perhaps that's our >>>>> lot because we are writing them for ourselves and in some degree of >>>>> isolation. At least if we are working on something as part of a team >>>>> then the client and the other team members will have a shared interest. >>>>> That can have its downsides, though, depending on their attitudes! >>>>> >>>> >>>> pretty much. >>>> >>>> I have my video-compression stuff, and no one cares. >>>> >>>> I tend to focus mostly on high-speed low-complexity designs, as the main >>>> alternative (low-speed high-complexity) is already pretty well covered >>>> (H.264). it has been personally useful to some extent for my own uses >>>> (capturing the desktop at full resolution, or streaming video from my >>>> robots). >>>> >>>> my compiler stuff is similarly niche. people don't care I suspect >>>> because generally I have ended up using it to run: a C variant; another >>>> language which is generally pretty solidly in the "extended C family". >>>> >>>> but, "useful for my purposes" isn't really leading to anything "clearly >>>> different" from mainstream languages. >>>> >>>> but, personally, I saw little gain in difference for difference sake, >>>> nor in trying to specify how programming "should" be done (my thinking >>>> being more that people will do whatever is useful for them, and that >>>> language design should provide mechanism and not policy). >>>> >>>> >>>> but, recently I am mostly like, "meh whatever", as I start work on >>>> trying to build something resembling the Motobug from the Sonic the >>>> Hedgehog series. >>>> >>>> but, it is cheap/lazy, and maintains balance via counterweights. >>> >>> That your compilers are niche is less important than that you can >>> actually write compilers. That says you've got major skillz. Is that >>> information on your resume? >>> >> >> I mentioned both my compiler/VM, and 3D games programming experience. >> last time a person commented on my resume, they recommended leaving off >> all the programming-related stuff, as it was 'irrelevant'. > > I presume you were not applying for a job as a programmer. > > Resume 101--read the job description. Put in _everything_ that you have > ever done relevant to that job. Leave out everything else except the > bare minimum necessary to fill gaps. > > It means a different resume for each job. It's a bit of work. > it had basically been a "generic" resume, which mentions most of the stuff I have worked on. >> but, granted, most of my life has been as a hobbyist, I have crap-all to >> put in the 'work experience' section, which is the main thing the person >> in question seemed to care about. >> >> the person in question was for hiring for jobs at a local paper mill, >> which makes a wide selection of brand-name toilet-paper. > > For what position were you applying? If you're looking for a job as a > laborer he's right, programming experience is irrelevant. But if that's > what you're looking for you're selling yourself way, way short. > it was for maintenance. mostly they were asking about various types of motors, familiarity with PLCs and ladder logic, ... there wasn't a whole lot of manual labor there that I could see, most everything was done by machinery. there were forklifts which moves big rolls of paper between machines, but there were no drivers in them. places where you crossed the path of the forklift had something similar to crosswalks and crossing signals on the road. the lower-level "operator" types basically stand around the whole time doing nothing. their job being to watch a machine and hit a big red E-stop button in the off chance something goes wrong. the main 'workers' there are mostly maintenance people, who run around and fix anything that breaks. at the time though, I had no real experience with PLCs or with industrial 3-phase motors. I have now messed with both of these in class, but not used them in personal projects. most of my experience in personal projects is with smaller motors and transistors (pretty much all of my motors are under 1kW). but, industrial stuff uses things like much bigger motors. >>> From what you're saying here, IMO, if you're not making a large income >>> right now it's not because you have an education problem or an >>> experience problem, it's because you have a communication problem. You >>> clearly have in-demand skills. Not compiler-writing per se, but the >>> fact that you can write compilers says that you can perform a >>> programming task that is commonly regarded as difficult, suggesting that >>> you can perform other programming tasks that are also regarded as >>> difficult. >>> >> >> education is that one has paid the money and gone through the rituals to >> show that a person is allowed to do one thing or another. like, it is >> all about what it says on paper a person can or can't do. > > I'm not saying it's not important, I'm saying that people who can > actually write code that works are rare in our society, rare enough that > many organizations will take a chance on somebody who doesn't have the > piece of paper. > ok. not seen many here. but, mostly I use C, and local companies ask mostly for PHP, C#, or VB.NET... there isn't really a whole lot of C or C++ coding going on apart from embedded (a local company which does pinball machines and video-slot machines and similar), or stuff related to military and/or defense contractors. >> like, a person can also go to a diploma mill and get an instant degree >> and make stuff up and get a well-paid job, whether or not they actually >> have the skills and experience. HR people are, similarly, happy to >> oblige, since on-paper they are what they say they are (then they do the >> job and people pay them to do so all just the same). > > One trick is to end-around the HR people. The HR people can't hire you, > all they can do is decide whether or not to show your resume to the > people who can. If you can get directly to the people who can, then the > HR people are substantially out of the loop. > ok. >> granted, this isn't an ethical solution. >> >> it is like, doing the proper thing and grinding for ones' stats in an >> MMO, or using a hacking tool to give themselves piles of XP and gold >> (say, because the game in question holds this info on the client rather >> than keeping it on a profile server). the GMs wont be happy about hacked >> stats, maybe ban them if they are found out, but otherwise pretty much >> everything else is the same. >> >> if a person does things on their own though, it isn't really >> "education", so it doesn't really count for anything. > > It does to people who need capable programmers. > doesn't really seem to be the case around here. they are happy enough to write a few lines saying they want someone who knows C#, LINQ, and 'Oracle', followed by a good 3 or 4 paragraphs about development methodologies and the "software development lifecycle" (*). followed by all the stuff they want in terms of work experience and education (like, say, they want a person with an MA and 10 years experience in their particular industry or similar). doesn't inspire much confidence... *: which I disagree with as very little real-world software actually follows this pattern. more often development and deployment overlap, and once no longer developed is pushed into service pretty much indefinitely (with periodic updates or porting to newer systems or similar). like, most current major software effectively goes back decades, with endless tweaking and extension in the meantime. >> and, on the other side, if a person should know how to do something but >> doesn't, they can often wing it and hope no one notices the difference >> (and/or just say whatever will make the boss happy). > > In programming it's hard to "wing it". > Google and copy-paste... then one only needs a basic superficial understanding of the language. like, they can read through one of those introductory programming books from a bookstore and be an instant 'expert'... >>> Searching for work is a different skill set from doing that work--that >>> means that very talented people often are un- or under-employed because >>> they never learned the job-finding skill set, only the job-doing skill >>> set. A lot of people have trouble with this notion--I know I did. >> >> or most of the jobs are in the east or west coast areas, but not really >> as much in the midwestern US... these areas are more known for >> oil-fields, corn, hog-farms, ... and some amount of industrial >> manufacturing (heavy industry, ...). >> >> but, don't really want to move anywhere else for now, for various >> reasons. particularly not densely populated coastal areas, which are >> fairly likely to be a death-trap in the case of a societal collapse... > > OK, now you're starting to come across as a bit, um, eccentric. Make > enough to own a bunker in Montana and have a Cessna fueled up and > waiting on the ramp to fly there and "societal collapse" becomes much > less frightening--a decent East Coast programming job pays enough that > you can do that if you're careful with your money in other ways. Oh, > and don't mention this concern in an interview unless you're applying > for a job at a place that caters to survivalists. > more viable is Kansas or Nebraska, since they have low population density and milder climates. don't need a plane to flee if one is already in an area which is reasonably ok. though, one isn't going to make huge income. but, many of those maintenance jobs start at around $30/hr and go up. >>> This isn't really the place to do a career-coaching seminar though. >>> Simplest thing to do though--figure out where you want to work--make a >>> list of 50-100 companies, and then research and target each one--no one- >>> size-fits-all resume, there should be one for each company and for each >>> position within the company. Don't forget to follow up with phone >>> calls, thank you notes, etc. >>> >> >> the number of programming jobs listed in local listings is generally >> crap-all once you eliminate everything looking for PHP and/or completely >> unrelated (but happening to have one or two keywords which match by some >> heuristic, *, ...). > > Most jobs aren't listed you know. That's why you have to network into > them. > ok. >> *: like job-search sites will go from 'programmer' to 'software >> engineer' to ... 'owner operator' (AKA: driving a semi-truck). >> >> eliminating any that want a degree, and this typically leaves a good >> solid crap-all. > > Apply for all of them. What does it cost you? A little time. Make > sure you tailor the resume for each--it's good practice. Be sure to > include a cover letter, again tailored for the position. If anybody > talks to you at any point get their name and send a thank you note. > Have fun with it. When you reach a point that you're having fun making > the resume fit the description you'll start getting interviews. > did that for a while, no results. me not getting a job anywhere is part of why I had switched over to looking for maintenance jobs... that combined with a general interest in electronics and robotics. robotics is at least interesting, can build small robots which do stuff... one recent example being a design with a pair of parallel wheels and remaining balanced on top of the wheels. currently, it is driven via a pair of small 3-phase BLDC motors. currently, it is smaller and using 8 inch wheels (and made out of cardboard), but possibly a larger version could have a robot balanced on a pair of 14 or 18 inch wheels (spaced probably with a few inches between them). basically, it is sort of like a Segway but with the wheels bigger, narrower, and closer together. currently, it isn't really done yet (still needs work on the electronics and coding front), but it does balance on the wheels at least (the current balancing is mostly passive, so it doesn't need electronics to remain balanced when stationary). >>> Check out groups where people who do the kind of work you're interested >>> in might be found--"Meet Up" <http://www.meetup.com/> is a good tool for >>> this. Go to meetings, participate, talk to people. When an opening >>> comes up you may get the inside track. Most people who get hired do it >>> through networking. >>> >>> Oh, and learn to chat people up wherever you are. Standing in line in >>> the supermarket for example. You never know who you're going to be >>> talking to. Everybody eats. >>> >> >> most people at the stores use SNAP cards, I have my doubts... > > I shop at the supermarket. I don't use a SNAP card. My boss the same. > Her boss the same. Her boss the same. The CEO I don't know about-- > haven't had a chance to talk to him yet--he might have a full time cook. > In any case, if nobody there can help you there's no harm in chatting > them up. What have you got to lose? And even people on SNAP have > friends and relatives. And sometimes they get hired. > dunno. I suspect most of the people around here use them. I don't, but I live with my parents, who have money (*), and see reliance on SNAP as a disgrace... *: I think technically middle class. most of the people around here are lower income though (neighbors mostly doing things like food-service and lawn-care and similar). in the hierarchy of things: food-service/lawn-work/... < retail < machine-operator < maintenance < ... my brother previously worked as a machine-operator, but is now looking for a temporary job in retail (stocking and inventory) as it should be less boring.
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| From | "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-09-12 13:11 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <MPG.305e26a8db571584989b1d@news.eternal-september.org> |
| In reply to | #5844 |
In article <mt0srt$9j2$1@dont-email.me>, james.harris.1@gmail.com says... > > "BGB" <cr88192@hotmail.com> wrote in message > news:mstp0e$laj$1@news.albasani.net... > > On 9/5/2015 2:49 PM, James Harris wrote: > >> > >> "BGB" <cr88192@hotmail.com> wrote in message > >> news:mri049$gaf$1@news.albasani.net... > > ... > > >>> in business computing though, if anything goes wrong (almost > >>> invariable with programming), someone needs to take the fall, often > >>> through legal action (lawsuits against former employees for lurking > >>> bugs, ...). > >>> > >>> don't want to deal with this, as it doesn't take much to realize > >>> that > >>> pretty much any code has bugs hidden in it somewhere... > >> > >> IME with business computing a company wouldn't just leave a > >> programmer > >> to get on with coding. When I worked for a bank we had a > >> design-and-test > >> review after a programmer had designed the program (to review the > >> design > >> and the test plan) and two other separate processes to test the new > >> program before it went into production. So programmers were not left > >> to > >> take responsibility for everything themselves. The team became > >> jointly > >> responsible for what was written. > >> > > > > ok. > > > > the tendency of places to put methodology before coding had been a bit > > worrying, as my main skill has mostly been throwing stuff together and > > "making it work". > > I mentioned code-and-test reviews because you were concerned about being > blamed if something went wrong. Such reviews are a way to pick up > problems early. > > That said, I didn't mean that all companies worked that way. You might > find the approach of a given company more to your liking, and yours to > them. Whatever they do they will probably have a way of testing what > programmers produce before they release it into the wild. The way we work is very informal in some ways and very structures in others. I write some code and test it, there's another guy in the group who runs his own tests on it, we make sure that it is either tracking identically the code it replaces (except for bug fixes of course) or if it's new code that it's tracking data generated from Excel spreadsheets, APL workspaces, or other sources. Once we're sure it's happy then we put it through a formal testing process that involves step-by-step procedures, sign-offs, and the whole nine yards--at that point though that's a formality to satisfy the auditors that we did our homework. > > I had generally been more interested in games-development, signal > > processing, and compiler technology. > > ... > > > personally, I would much rather be building robots and similar, but I > > need a job doing something at least. > > You might find that you could do both what an employer wanted and also > your own stuff in your own time. That's how Woz got started--he built the Apple prototype after hours in HP's labs, then offered it to the company, they didn't want it, so he asked for and was given a release to market it on his own. > Years ago I remember a friend (who was not into computing) being amazed > that I could write software all day for work and then come home and > write more in the evening. What he didn't realise was that the two types > of programming were completely different. During the day I was writing > business software for a bank's mainframes. At night I was writing things > like games and utilities on a micro. And MAN what a difference between the two environments. > I only mention the above to say that if you want a job you might find > one you enjoy even if, from the description, it doesn't look like the > kind of thing you want to do. And yet you can also do the kinds of > things you prefer in your own time at home. And even if you don't, experience counts. And with the right employer you can finish up that degree on the company's dime.
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| From | "James Harris" <james.harris.1@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-09-05 20:55 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <msfh8e$cg4$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #5656 |
"J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote in message news:MPG.3045bde82d0b2a3f989ae4@news.eternal-september.org... > In article <mrfb5m$eo3$1@news.albasani.net>, cr88192@hotmail.com > says... ... >> where I am living, there are not a lot of programming jobs, and most >> of >> these are web/business/financial stuff, which I personally don't want >> to >> go anywhere near. likewise, don't want to relocate right now either. > > A year ago I would have said the same thing. Don't avoid the > "business/financial stuff". It may seem boring but it's experience > regardless. An interesting comment. I am thinking of getting back into programming professionally, having spent many years programming at home but doing other IT stuff for an income. As well as being unsure what level of programming skill and experience a prospective employer would look for (aka compare me with other programmers available) a lot of the jobs I have seen are ones that I, like Brendan, really don't think I want to do. I have become more free-wheeling in my programming and been able to pick things that I want to do. That's why your comment was interesting. It sounds as though the job turned out for you to be more interesting than you expected. James
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| From | "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-09-07 20:20 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <MPG.3057f3c03050dc94989b05@news.eternal-september.org> |
| In reply to | #5819 |
In article <msfh8e$cg4$1@dont-email.me>, james.harris.1@gmail.com says... > > "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote in message > news:MPG.3045bde82d0b2a3f989ae4@news.eternal-september.org... > > In article <mrfb5m$eo3$1@news.albasani.net>, cr88192@hotmail.com > > says... > > ... > > >> where I am living, there are not a lot of programming jobs, and most > >> of > >> these are web/business/financial stuff, which I personally don't want > >> to > >> go anywhere near. likewise, don't want to relocate right now either. > > > > A year ago I would have said the same thing. Don't avoid the > > "business/financial stuff". It may seem boring but it's experience > > regardless. > > An interesting comment. I am thinking of getting back into programming > professionally, having spent many years programming at home but doing > other IT stuff for an income. > > As well as being unsure what level of programming skill and experience a > prospective employer would look for (aka compare me with other > programmers available) a lot of the jobs I have seen are ones that I, > like Brendan, really don't think I want to do. I have become more > free-wheeling in my programming and been able to pick things that I want > to do. That's why your comment was interesting. It sounds as though the > job turned out for you to be more interesting than you expected. > > James Well, to give an example, my current employer has an opening for a Quantitative Consultant (the same title I hold--don't let the "consultant" part throw you--it's a full time salaried position with full benefits), with the stated requirements being a bachelor's degree in computer science and two years programming experience. The candidate also has to pass an aptitude test (a timed test which is half "word problems" in mathematics and half "fill in the missing piece" on flowcharts), and pass the interview. What we're actually looking for though is someone who can write code and is willing to learn--the main languages we work with are Fortran and APL, with the Fortran in a mainframe environment, and we don't actually expect anybody to know either those languages or to have worked with a mainframe. What we do expect though is that when asked "how would you handle this problem" they can come up with an algorithm on the spot to handle it--doesn't have to be a _good_ algorithm although if it is that's so much the better, and they don't have to actually write code for it on the spot. There's a list of "problems" none of which are particularly difficult (to my way of thinking anyway). The "hard" part of the job isn't the programming, the code is generally pretty straighforward--it's the business logic, which is driven partly by marketing, partly by accounting, partly by actuarial concerns, and partly by regulation. Now, that's just at my employer, which is a Fortune 100 life insurance company. Others may have different requirements.
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| From | BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-09-11 00:44 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <mstq1p$4et$1@news.albasani.net> |
| In reply to | #5830 |
On 9/7/2015 7:20 PM, J. Clarke wrote: > In article <msfh8e$cg4$1@dont-email.me>, james.harris.1@gmail.com > says... >> >> "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote in message >> news:MPG.3045bde82d0b2a3f989ae4@news.eternal-september.org... >>> In article <mrfb5m$eo3$1@news.albasani.net>, cr88192@hotmail.com >>> says... >> >> ... >> >>>> where I am living, there are not a lot of programming jobs, and most >>>> of >>>> these are web/business/financial stuff, which I personally don't want >>>> to >>>> go anywhere near. likewise, don't want to relocate right now either. >>> >>> A year ago I would have said the same thing. Don't avoid the >>> "business/financial stuff". It may seem boring but it's experience >>> regardless. >> >> An interesting comment. I am thinking of getting back into programming >> professionally, having spent many years programming at home but doing >> other IT stuff for an income. >> >> As well as being unsure what level of programming skill and experience a >> prospective employer would look for (aka compare me with other >> programmers available) a lot of the jobs I have seen are ones that I, >> like Brendan, really don't think I want to do. I have become more >> free-wheeling in my programming and been able to pick things that I want >> to do. That's why your comment was interesting. It sounds as though the >> job turned out for you to be more interesting than you expected. >> >> James > > Well, to give an example, my current employer has an opening for a > Quantitative Consultant (the same title I hold--don't let the > "consultant" part throw you--it's a full time salaried position with > full benefits), with the stated requirements being a bachelor's degree > in computer science and two years programming experience. The candidate > also has to pass an aptitude test (a timed test which is half "word > problems" in mathematics and half "fill in the missing piece" on > flowcharts), and pass the interview. > don't have a degree... > What we're actually looking for though is someone who can write code and > is willing to learn--the main languages we work with are Fortran and > APL, with the Fortran in a mainframe environment, and we don't actually > expect anybody to know either those languages or to have worked with a > mainframe. What we do expect though is that when asked "how would you > handle this problem" they can come up with an algorithm on the spot to > handle it--doesn't have to be a _good_ algorithm although if it is > that's so much the better, and they don't have to actually write code > for it on the spot. There's a list of "problems" none of which are > particularly difficult (to my way of thinking anyway). > > The "hard" part of the job isn't the programming, the code is generally > pretty straighforward--it's the business logic, which is driven partly > by marketing, partly by accounting, partly by actuarial concerns, and > partly by regulation. > > Now, that's just at my employer, which is a Fortune 100 life insurance > company. Others may have different requirements. > generally, I historically have been the sort of person who throws lots of code at a problem and gets things working by beating on it to make it work (IOW: write lots of code fairly quickly and then play whack-a-mole with the bugs). though, a lot of my recent stuff hasn't aligned as well with my main skill (tasks which depend a lot more on fine tuning and "getting it right" rather than things solved by ability to write lots of code). like, a lot more focus on performance and timing issues and similar, and cases where "more code" is detrimental (memory footprint and build-times), or can render it unusable (running out of ROM space).
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| From | BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-09-11 08:29 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <msul9v$81j$1@news.albasani.net> |
| In reply to | #5834 |
On 9/11/2015 12:44 AM, BGB wrote: > On 9/7/2015 7:20 PM, J. Clarke wrote: >> In article <msfh8e$cg4$1@dont-email.me>, james.harris.1@gmail.com >> says... >>> ... >> >> Well, to give an example, my current employer has an opening for a >> Quantitative Consultant (the same title I hold--don't let the >> "consultant" part throw you--it's a full time salaried position with >> full benefits), with the stated requirements being a bachelor's degree >> in computer science and two years programming experience. The candidate >> also has to pass an aptitude test (a timed test which is half "word >> problems" in mathematics and half "fill in the missing piece" on >> flowcharts), and pass the interview. >> > > don't have a degree... > went for a CS major, spent years in various colleges, fell one math class short of a degree (while in the middle of a move). not bothered here because few enough credits would transfer that it would be more-or-less starting over. was like, "screw it", so no degree... me and Calculus aren't really friends. hence, going for something simpler, now in a trade-school for industrial maintenance...
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| From | Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-09-11 17:05 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <87fv2lgcv9.fsf@bsb.me.uk> |
| In reply to | #5835 |
BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> writes: <snip> > went for a CS major, <snip> > me and Calculus aren't really friends. That's interesting. In the UK I think it would be unlikely that calculus was required for CS. There would be some maths to cover things like sets and logic and proof and so on -- all "discrete", rather than "continuous" maths most likely. Of course calculus would be crucial for something like a CS options in numerical analysis, but that would be a special case (not all universities would offer such an option). -- Ben.
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| From | Mark Carroll <mtbc@bcs.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-09-11 17:07 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <87613hj5ww.fsf@ixod.org> |
| In reply to | #5836 |
Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> writes: > BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> writes: > <snip> >> went for a CS major, > <snip> >> me and Calculus aren't really friends. > > That's interesting. In the UK I think it would be unlikely that > calculus was required for CS. Probably most of the decent courses would hope for candidates to already have A-level maths which would include calculus? -- Mark
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| From | Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-09-11 17:27 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <874mj0hqf9.fsf@bsb.me.uk> |
| In reply to | #5837 |
Mark Carroll <mtbc@bcs.org> writes: > Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> writes: > >> BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> writes: >> <snip> >>> went for a CS major, >> <snip> >>> me and Calculus aren't really friends. >> >> That's interesting. In the UK I think it would be unlikely that >> calculus was required for CS. > > Probably most of the decent courses would hope for candidates to already > have A-level maths which would include calculus? Yes, that;s true, but it would not be used much on the course. So much so that students would be admitted with alternative entry criteria without worrying that they'd have trouble. If you know calculus the hand-waving about Big O that the algorithms lecturer will probably do will make more sense but that's about it. Joint CS and electronics courses are another matter of course... -- Ben.
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| From | "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-09-12 12:51 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <MPG.305e22303dc73183989b1a@news.eternal-september.org> |
| In reply to | #5838 |
In article <874mj0hqf9.fsf@bsb.me.uk>, ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk says... > > Mark Carroll <mtbc@bcs.org> writes: > > > Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> writes: > > > >> BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> writes: > >> <snip> > >>> went for a CS major, > >> <snip> > >>> me and Calculus aren't really friends. > >> > >> That's interesting. In the UK I think it would be unlikely that > >> calculus was required for CS. > > > > Probably most of the decent courses would hope for candidates to already > > have A-level maths which would include calculus? > > Yes, that;s true, but it would not be used much on the course. So much > so that students would be admitted with alternative entry criteria > without worrying that they'd have trouble. If you know calculus the > hand-waving about Big O that the algorithms lecturer will probably do > will make more sense but that's about it. > > Joint CS and electronics courses are another matter of course... I ended up using it a lot but that was because before I became a quant I was in aerospace doing flight mechanics. The only time I recall using it in anything CS-related was a queueing theory class that was actually kind of interesting.
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| From | "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-09-11 14:55 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <msvbh0$svt$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #5836 |
"Ben Bacarisse" <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> wrote in message news:87fv2lgcv9.fsf@bsb.me.uk... > BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> writes: > <snip> >> went for a CS major, > <snip> >> me and Calculus aren't really friends. > > That's interesting. In the UK I think it would be unlikely that > calculus was required for CS. There would be some maths to cover things > like sets and logic and proof and so on -- all "discrete", rather than > "continuous" maths most likely. Of course calculus would be crucial for > something like a CS options in numerical analysis, but that would be a > special case (not all universities would offer such an option). > ISTM that most numerical analysis today is done using "canned" packages written in something like MATLAB. There does *not* seem to be much need for a dedicated numerical analysis specialist. -- numerist at aquaporin4 dot com
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| From | "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-09-12 12:54 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <MPG.305e22d824512e0e989b1b@news.eternal-september.org> |
| In reply to | #5839 |
In article <msvbh0$svt$1@dont-email.me>, numerist@aquaporin4.com says... > > "Ben Bacarisse" <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> wrote in message > news:87fv2lgcv9.fsf@bsb.me.uk... > > BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> writes: > > <snip> > >> went for a CS major, > > <snip> > >> me and Calculus aren't really friends. > > > > That's interesting. In the UK I think it would be unlikely that > > calculus was required for CS. There would be some maths to cover things > > like sets and logic and proof and so on -- all "discrete", rather than > > "continuous" maths most likely. Of course calculus would be crucial for > > something like a CS options in numerical analysis, but that would be a > > special case (not all universities would offer such an option). > > > > ISTM that most numerical analysis today is done using "canned" packages > written in something like MATLAB. There does *not* seem to be much need for > a dedicated numerical analysis specialist. When I was doing flight mechanics for a living we had a package with a variety of solvers but I had to write the equation it was solving in Fortran. I was surprised when reading Kip Thorne's book about the making of Interstellar that he was routinely dealing with General Relativity by throwing Mathematica at it. Clearly things have changed. But possibly not all that much--he didn't say what language the people coding for the renderfarm were using.
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| From | BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-09-11 17:52 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <msvm9f$3gm$1@news.albasani.net> |
| In reply to | #5836 |
On 9/11/2015 11:05 AM, Ben Bacarisse wrote: > BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> writes: > <snip> >> went for a CS major, > <snip> >> me and Calculus aren't really friends. > > That's interesting. In the UK I think it would be unlikely that > calculus was required for CS. There would be some maths to cover things > like sets and logic and proof and so on -- all "discrete", rather than > "continuous" maths most likely. Of course calculus would be crucial for > something like a CS options in numerical analysis, but that would be a > special case (not all universities would offer such an option). > I think the usual thinking is "CS uses math, Calculus is math, make CS majors take Calculus classes...". so, it is mostly things like Calculus classes mixed with introductory programming classes (C# and Visual Basic), and misc things like SQL and similar, and as a final project you throw together a data-entry type application using VB.NET and an SQL database... there was an class for algorithms, but it was fairly rudimentary, like implementing linked lists and bubble sort. actual "serious" CS topics didn't really come up... like, all I know about compilers, signal processing, ... was all because I work on this stuff as a hobby.
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| From | Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-09-12 00:23 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <87twr0fsl4.fsf@bsb.me.uk> |
| In reply to | #5841 |
BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> writes: > On 9/11/2015 11:05 AM, Ben Bacarisse wrote: >> BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> writes: >> <snip> >>> went for a CS major, >> <snip> >>> me and Calculus aren't really friends. >> >> That's interesting. In the UK I think it would be unlikely that >> calculus was required for CS. There would be some maths to cover things >> like sets and logic and proof and so on -- all "discrete", rather than >> "continuous" maths most likely. Of course calculus would be crucial for >> something like a CS options in numerical analysis, but that would be a >> special case (not all universities would offer such an option). >> > > I think the usual thinking is "CS uses math, Calculus is math, make CS > majors take Calculus classes...". You mean that's the usual thinking in the USA? My point was that in the UK the fact that CS uses maths often just leads to "so let's do some logic, set theory and so on". It's nor uncommon to have a special tailored maths course. The thinking doesn't seem to lead to the same end that you describe. <snip> > actual "serious" CS topics didn't really come up... That's a shame. Degree courses are very variable. <snip> -- Ben.
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| From | BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-09-11 22:45 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <mt07f9$tft$1@news.albasani.net> |
| In reply to | #5842 |
On 9/11/2015 6:23 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote: > BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> writes: > >> On 9/11/2015 11:05 AM, Ben Bacarisse wrote: >>> BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> writes: >>> <snip> >>>> went for a CS major, >>> <snip> >>>> me and Calculus aren't really friends. >>> >>> That's interesting. In the UK I think it would be unlikely that >>> calculus was required for CS. There would be some maths to cover things >>> like sets and logic and proof and so on -- all "discrete", rather than >>> "continuous" maths most likely. Of course calculus would be crucial for >>> something like a CS options in numerical analysis, but that would be a >>> special case (not all universities would offer such an option). >>> >> >> I think the usual thinking is "CS uses math, Calculus is math, make CS >> majors take Calculus classes...". > > You mean that's the usual thinking in the USA? My point was that in the > UK the fact that CS uses maths often just leads to "so let's do some > logic, set theory and so on". It's nor uncommon to have a special > tailored maths course. The thinking doesn't seem to lead to the same > end that you describe. > > <snip> >> actual "serious" CS topics didn't really come up... > > That's a shame. Degree courses are very variable. > though, CS is a fairly small/unpopular major, so the college didn't really care (and was actually considering dropping it as pretty much the entirety of the CS students could fit in a single room). much bigger majors there were: nursing; criminal justice / paralegal / ...; sports medicine; graphics arts; ... where I am currently at, the "Mechatronics" program is also pretty small (about 16 students in total). the more high-status majors here are: nursing; cosmetology (hair, nails, makeup, ...); automotive repair (engine mechanics, body-repair, ...); ...
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| From | "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-09-12 12:56 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <MPG.305e233ab4a4de97989b1c@news.eternal-september.org> |
| In reply to | #5842 |
In article <87twr0fsl4.fsf@bsb.me.uk>, ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk says... > > BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> writes: > > > On 9/11/2015 11:05 AM, Ben Bacarisse wrote: > >> BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> writes: > >> <snip> > >>> went for a CS major, > >> <snip> > >>> me and Calculus aren't really friends. > >> > >> That's interesting. In the UK I think it would be unlikely that > >> calculus was required for CS. There would be some maths to cover things > >> like sets and logic and proof and so on -- all "discrete", rather than > >> "continuous" maths most likely. Of course calculus would be crucial for > >> something like a CS options in numerical analysis, but that would be a > >> special case (not all universities would offer such an option). > >> > > > > I think the usual thinking is "CS uses math, Calculus is math, make CS > > majors take Calculus classes...". > > You mean that's the usual thinking in the USA? My point was that in the > UK the fact that CS uses maths often just leads to "so let's do some > logic, set theory and so on". It's nor uncommon to have a special > tailored maths course. The thinking doesn't seem to lead to the same > end that you describe. > > <snip> > > actual "serious" CS topics didn't really come up... > > That's a shame. Degree courses are very variable. > > <snip> In the US there is (or was at one time ) a notion in many institutions that Computer Science is a subfield of Mathematics, so essentially you were taking a math degree with some CS courses.
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| From | "James Harris" <james.harris.1@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-09-12 11:04 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <mt0t8m$au0$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #5841 |
"BGB" <cr88192@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:msvm9f$3gm$1@news.albasani.net... ... > there was an class for algorithms, but it was fairly rudimentary, like > implementing linked lists and bubble sort. Anything that teaches bubble sort has to be rudimentary! I remember one person saying that it should never be taught to anyone. The course below teaches eight (yes, eight) sorting methods and not one of them is bubble sort. > actual "serious" CS topics didn't really come up... For anyone who is interested there is a brilliant series of lectures on data structures at https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL4BBB74C7D2A1049C The first part of the course is on Java. The data structures part starts around lecture 21. James
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