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Re: The Lisp Curse

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* Dmitry A. Kazakov, on 02.07.2011 18:09:
> On Sat, 02 Jul 2011 17:06:29 +0200, Alf P. Steinbach /Usenet wrote:
>
>> * Dmitry A. Kazakov, on 02.07.2011 15:30:
>
>>> I meant that so long nobody knows what the intelligence algorithmically is.
>>> In this context estimations of necessary power are meaningless. It is like
>>> an alchemist guessing how much wood he would need to heat the cauldron in
>>> order to produce one ounce of gold.
>>
>> Oh, I wouldn't have guessed that meaning, it's too meaningless to me, sorry.
>>
>> Probably, as seen from my perspective, the insight that you're lacking is that
>> many aspects of intelligence are well understood, and that one such aspect is
>> the need for a large, detailed model of the world (where "world" means whatever
>> environment that the intelligence interacts with), a model that supports almost
>> instant association actions and (possibly vague) set intersection.
>
> I don't think that a model of the world is an essential part:
>
> 1. Insects and other primitive species certainly do not have it, yet solve
> problems too complex for programmed computers. They also possess very
> limited abilities to learn, so even learning is not a key aspect in
> achieving the level of intelligence they show.

Regarding "insects ... do not have [a model of the world]". They do relate to 
the world, mostly with hardwired sequences of responses. You can *define* the 
model as the system that provides the responses. Substitute some other model and 
you get responses that won't work very well for the creature -> insect dies. 
Thus the world model that is there is necessarily very finely adapted.

Regarding "yet solve problems too complex for programmed computers", if you're 
talking about control of the body, then that's right, but then it isn't about 
intelligence but rather about feedback and control systems. If you're talking 
about analytical "problems", well, they don't solve such problems. In 
particular, if you're thinking of Traveling Salesman-solving insects (there was 
some misleading media coverage of such a thing some months ago, or perhaps a 
year ago), no, if that's what you're alluding to then please, mark down the 
source that misled you as unreliable, not serious, ungood, bad, silly...

Regarding "even learning is not a key aspect in achieving the level of 
intelligence they show", well, what level intelligence do insects show? Not very 
much intelligence. By any measure of intelligence an individual insect has about 
zero, about the same as a thermostat. Give an insect an IQ test and it won't 
even get the first question right. Zero correct answers => 0 IQ. :-)

Getting an artifical system to emulate an insect brain is still worthwhile.

For if one can't do even that, then it's rather hopeless to aim for AI, and 
secondly, as we have discussed, as opposed to what goes on in a human brain the 
dataflow per second inside an insect brain appears to be somewhat within the 
capabilities of current computers (even a PC).


> 2. A newly born child does not have any model. The model is constructed
> later in the process of learning.

Your idea here is, I believe, one extreme position in the so called "nurture 
versus nature" debate.

The nature versus nurture debate is so old that is has been resolved.

Summary: it's both, both innate capabilities (model) and learning.


> The problem of intelligence is not how to teach children, but how to
> construct them (in some less traditional way (:-)).

Well, that too.


Cheers,

- Alf

-- 
blog at <url: http://alfps.wordpress.com>

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Re: The Lisp Curse Mentifex <mentifex@myuw.net> - 2011-06-29 15:41 -0700
  Re: The Lisp Curse "Fuschia, President-Elect of the Bright Purplish-Green Council" <fp-eotbp-gc@ibm.com> - 2011-06-29 19:16 -0400
  Re: The Lisp Curse "Dmitry A. Kazakov" <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de> - 2011-06-30 09:47 +0200
    Re: The Lisp Curse BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2011-06-30 02:27 -0700
      Re: The Lisp Curse "Dmitry A. Kazakov" <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de> - 2011-06-30 14:28 +0200
        Re: The Lisp Curse BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2011-06-30 14:06 -0700
          Re: The Lisp Curse "Dmitry A. Kazakov" <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de> - 2011-07-01 23:25 +0200
            Re: The Lisp Curse "Alf P. Steinbach /Usenet" <alf.p.steinbach+usenet@gmail.com> - 2011-07-02 00:32 +0200
              Re: The Lisp Curse "Dmitry A. Kazakov" <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de> - 2011-07-02 09:49 +0200
                Re: The Lisp Curse "Alf P. Steinbach /Usenet" <alf.p.steinbach+usenet@gmail.com> - 2011-07-02 12:23 +0200
                Re: The Lisp Curse "Dmitry A. Kazakov" <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de> - 2011-07-02 15:30 +0200
                Re: The Lisp Curse "Alf P. Steinbach /Usenet" <alf.p.steinbach+usenet@gmail.com> - 2011-07-02 17:06 +0200
                Re: The Lisp Curse "Dmitry A. Kazakov" <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de> - 2011-07-02 18:09 +0200
                Re: The Lisp Curse James Waldby <not@valid.invalid> - 2011-07-02 17:23 +0000
                Re: The Lisp Curse "Dmitry A. Kazakov" <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de> - 2011-07-02 20:50 +0200
                Re: The Lisp Curse luser droog <mijoryx@yahoo.com> - 2011-07-17 22:14 -0700
                Re: The Lisp Curse Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2011-07-18 14:10 +0100
                Re: The Lisp Curse Willem <willem@toad.stack.nl> - 2011-07-18 14:13 +0000
                Re: The Lisp Curse Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2011-07-18 16:18 +0100
                Re: The Lisp Curse "Alf P. Steinbach /Usenet" <alf.p.steinbach+usenet@gmail.com> - 2011-07-02 19:47 +0200
                Re: The Lisp Curse "Dmitry A. Kazakov" <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de> - 2011-07-02 20:56 +0200
                Re: The Lisp Curse "Alf P. Steinbach /Usenet" <alf.p.steinbach+usenet@gmail.com> - 2011-07-02 23:01 +0200
                Re: The Lisp Curse "Dmitry A. Kazakov" <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de> - 2011-07-03 10:45 +0200
                Re: The Lisp Curse BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2011-07-02 10:00 -0700
                Re: The Lisp Curse luser droog <mijoryx@yahoo.com> - 2011-07-17 04:09 -0700
                Re: The Lisp Curse "James" <no@spam.invalid> - 2011-07-03 12:06 -0700
            Re: The Lisp Curse BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2011-07-01 21:22 -0700
              Re: The Lisp Curse "Dmitry A. Kazakov" <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de> - 2011-07-02 09:47 +0200
                Re: The Lisp Curse BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2011-07-02 02:10 -0700
                Re: The Lisp Curse "Dmitry A. Kazakov" <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de> - 2011-07-02 15:29 +0200
                Re: The Lisp Curse BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2011-07-02 10:03 -0700
                Re: The Lisp Curse "Dmitry A. Kazakov" <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de> - 2011-07-02 20:47 +0200
                Re: The Lisp Curse BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2011-07-02 20:29 -0700
                Re: The Lisp Curse "Dmitry A. Kazakov" <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de> - 2011-07-03 10:53 +0200
                Re: The Lisp Curse tm <thomas.mertes@gmx.at> - 2011-07-03 23:42 -0700
        Re: The Lisp Curse Fritz Wuehler <fritz@spamexpire-201107.rodent.frell.theremailer.net> - 2011-07-03 14:40 +0200

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