Re: The Lisp Curse

From	James Waldby <not@valid.invalid>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.misc, comp.programming
Subject	Re: The Lisp Curse
Date	2011-07-02 17:23 +0000
Organization	A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID	<iunk7b$n2j$1@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References	(8 earlier) <ydtfbfc0h12.10ud2ny33ds0q$.dlg@40tude.net> <iumr1s$j5s$1@dont-email.me> <q8rn4pzv7458$.1ejfewozpg0a7.dlg@40tude.net> <iunbl6$j80$1@dont-email.me> <1gud2gbohyglg.1glp12omtlke1.dlg@40tude.net>

Cross-posted to 2 groups.

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On Sat, 02 Jul 2011 18:09:48 +0200, Dmitry A. Kazakov wrote:
> On Sat, 02 Jul 2011 17:06:29 +0200, Alf P. Steinbach /Usenet wrote:
...
>> Probably, as seen from my perspective, the insight that you're lacking
>> is that many aspects of intelligence are well understood, and that one
>> such aspect is the need for a large, detailed model of the world (where
>> "world" means whatever environment that the intelligence interacts
>> with), a model that supports almost instant association actions and
>> (possibly vague) set intersection.
> 
> I don't think that a model of the world is an essential part:
> 
> 1. Insects and other primitive species certainly do not have it, yet
> solve problems too complex for programmed computers. They also possess
> very limited abilities to learn, so even learning is not a key aspect in
> achieving the level of intelligence they show.

I doubt that those assertions are correct, but don't have time to
look for contrarywise evidence.  Can you provide evidence for them?

By the way, "I don't think x is y" is, in English, not a useful 
construction.  (It is tantamount, in my estimation, to "I don't 
think".)  One should instead say "I think x is not y".

> 2. A newly born child does not have any model. The model is constructed
> later in the process of learning.
...

Do you have any evidence or sources to support that assertion?  The
state of research re models in newborns appears to me to not provide
a clear cut answer.  For example, the first URL below quotes research
that says "Babies are born with a fairly detailed representation of the 
average human face that helps them recognise familiar faces and also 
helps them learn about the social world" while the abstracted page in
the other URL suggests it is controversial.

<http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn6355-babies-prefer-to-gaze-upon-beautiful-faces.html>
<http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/icd.241/abstract>

Of course, the issues of fact that I mention above might be irrelevant
to the larger picture of whatever it is you are discussing.  This thread
perhaps started out as a discussion of future-of-Lisp, then Lisp-and-AI,
what-is-AI, what-is-intelligence, hardware-for-intelligence, etc, with 
various subthreads less amenable to three-word titles and various unclear
arguments and aims.  If the fact issues aren't relevant, feel free to 
ignore them and instead clarify the point of discussion.

-- 
jiw

Thread

Re: The Lisp Curse Mentifex <mentifex@myuw.net> - 2011-06-29 15:41 -0700
  Re: The Lisp Curse "Fuschia, President-Elect of the Bright Purplish-Green Council" <fp-eotbp-gc@ibm.com> - 2011-06-29 19:16 -0400
  Re: The Lisp Curse "Dmitry A. Kazakov" <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de> - 2011-06-30 09:47 +0200
    Re: The Lisp Curse BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2011-06-30 02:27 -0700
      Re: The Lisp Curse "Dmitry A. Kazakov" <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de> - 2011-06-30 14:28 +0200
        Re: The Lisp Curse BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2011-06-30 14:06 -0700
          Re: The Lisp Curse "Dmitry A. Kazakov" <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de> - 2011-07-01 23:25 +0200
            Re: The Lisp Curse "Alf P. Steinbach /Usenet" <alf.p.steinbach+usenet@gmail.com> - 2011-07-02 00:32 +0200
              Re: The Lisp Curse "Dmitry A. Kazakov" <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de> - 2011-07-02 09:49 +0200
                Re: The Lisp Curse "Alf P. Steinbach /Usenet" <alf.p.steinbach+usenet@gmail.com> - 2011-07-02 12:23 +0200
                Re: The Lisp Curse "Dmitry A. Kazakov" <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de> - 2011-07-02 15:30 +0200
                Re: The Lisp Curse "Alf P. Steinbach /Usenet" <alf.p.steinbach+usenet@gmail.com> - 2011-07-02 17:06 +0200
                Re: The Lisp Curse "Dmitry A. Kazakov" <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de> - 2011-07-02 18:09 +0200
                Re: The Lisp Curse James Waldby <not@valid.invalid> - 2011-07-02 17:23 +0000
                Re: The Lisp Curse "Dmitry A. Kazakov" <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de> - 2011-07-02 20:50 +0200
                Re: The Lisp Curse luser droog <mijoryx@yahoo.com> - 2011-07-17 22:14 -0700
                Re: The Lisp Curse Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2011-07-18 14:10 +0100
                Re: The Lisp Curse Willem <willem@toad.stack.nl> - 2011-07-18 14:13 +0000
                Re: The Lisp Curse Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2011-07-18 16:18 +0100
                Re: The Lisp Curse "Alf P. Steinbach /Usenet" <alf.p.steinbach+usenet@gmail.com> - 2011-07-02 19:47 +0200
                Re: The Lisp Curse "Dmitry A. Kazakov" <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de> - 2011-07-02 20:56 +0200
                Re: The Lisp Curse "Alf P. Steinbach /Usenet" <alf.p.steinbach+usenet@gmail.com> - 2011-07-02 23:01 +0200
                Re: The Lisp Curse "Dmitry A. Kazakov" <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de> - 2011-07-03 10:45 +0200
                Re: The Lisp Curse BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2011-07-02 10:00 -0700
                Re: The Lisp Curse luser droog <mijoryx@yahoo.com> - 2011-07-17 04:09 -0700
                Re: The Lisp Curse "James" <no@spam.invalid> - 2011-07-03 12:06 -0700
            Re: The Lisp Curse BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2011-07-01 21:22 -0700
              Re: The Lisp Curse "Dmitry A. Kazakov" <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de> - 2011-07-02 09:47 +0200
                Re: The Lisp Curse BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2011-07-02 02:10 -0700
                Re: The Lisp Curse "Dmitry A. Kazakov" <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de> - 2011-07-02 15:29 +0200
                Re: The Lisp Curse BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2011-07-02 10:03 -0700
                Re: The Lisp Curse "Dmitry A. Kazakov" <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de> - 2011-07-02 20:47 +0200
                Re: The Lisp Curse BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2011-07-02 20:29 -0700
                Re: The Lisp Curse "Dmitry A. Kazakov" <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de> - 2011-07-03 10:53 +0200
                Re: The Lisp Curse tm <thomas.mertes@gmx.at> - 2011-07-03 23:42 -0700
        Re: The Lisp Curse Fritz Wuehler <fritz@spamexpire-201107.rodent.frell.theremailer.net> - 2011-07-03 14:40 +0200

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