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Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence

From Edek <edek.pienkowski@gmail.com>
Newsgroups comp.programming.threads
Subject Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence
Date 2011-07-10 19:47 +0200
Organization ATMAN - ATM S.A.
Message-ID <ivcohe$s90$1@node2.news.atman.pl> (permalink)
References (9 earlier) <4DFA18D0.3A413EED@web.de> <87oc1xajr3.fsf@justsoftwaresolutions.co.uk> <4DFA2342.52931D8@web.de> <87k4clai0h.fsf@justsoftwaresolutions.co.uk> <4DFA302D.6D7AB65E@web.de>

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On 06/16/2011 06:32 PM, Alexander Terekhov wrote:
>
> Anthony Williams wrote:
> [...]
>> For reference, 29.3p8 says:
>>
>> [ Note: memory_order_seq_cst ensures sequential consistency only for a
>> program that is free of data races and uses exclusively
>> memory_order_seq_cst operations. Any use of weaker ordering will
>> invalidate this guarantee unless extreme care is used. In particular,
>
> This is appalling.
>
> regards,
> alexander.

This is beautiful.

The way I see it, is that seq_cst provides for the default use. All
other orderings are supposed to serve dedicated purposes. The bad
side effect could be that seq_cst affects everything else including
such weird orderings as relaxed, in the sense that they would be
required to be heavier than needed.

But I understand from your post (5th July) that it still does for
Itanium.

The point I am trying to make is that the above quote is meant
to eliminate this side effect, although it does not succeed in every
case. I do not understand why this is a problem; but, well, I do
not fully understand why relaxed order is really needed either.
Not that I do not see the purpose of relaxed if the compiler does a 
literal line-to-line translation - then, having a simple store (or load)
can be better than that plus some fence, but I see no reason
why a compiler (or a future CPU) could not eliminate the overhead. [1]
Of course, this is limited to cases where relaxed atomic cannot be
replaced by non-atomic data.

I think I understand why you say this is appalling. But it
looks like a reasonable API contract to me. It does affect ops with
a bit less strict memory orderings, but without the above clause
it would be worse, not better.

Am I missing anything obvious, especially in the space between
sequentially ordered and "in reasonable time" operations?

Edek


[1] Take:

line 1: x.store(val, relaxed)
line 2: y.store(val, release)

Supposing line 1 needs any fence because of the memory model
consistency, maybe the fence can be omitted for the particular
platform, because line 2 already provides enough ordering to
"include" line 1? Including seq_cst in the picture,
if my logic is correct, would ruin this.

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Thread

questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Masakuni Oishi <yamasa@bsdhouse.org> - 2011-06-13 09:40 -0700
  Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Edek <edek.pienkowski@gmail.com> - 2011-06-13 22:39 +0200
    Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Masakuni Oishi <yamasa@bsdhouse.org> - 2011-06-14 08:27 -0700
      Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Edek <edek.pienkowski@gmail.com> - 2011-06-16 00:21 +0200
        Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Joshua Maurice <joshuamaurice@gmail.com> - 2011-06-15 15:48 -0700
          Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Masakuni Oishi <yamasa@bsdhouse.org> - 2011-06-16 05:03 -0700
        Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Anthony Williams <anthony.ajw@gmail.com> - 2011-06-16 08:35 +0100
          Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Alexander Terekhov <terekhov@web.de> - 2011-06-16 12:05 +0200
            Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Anthony Williams <anthony.ajw@gmail.com> - 2011-06-16 11:19 +0100
              Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Alexander Terekhov <terekhov@web.de> - 2011-06-16 13:57 +0200
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Anthony Williams <anthony.ajw@gmail.com> - 2011-06-16 13:51 +0100
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Alexander Terekhov <terekhov@web.de> - 2011-06-16 16:53 +0200
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Anthony Williams <anthony.ajw@gmail.com> - 2011-06-16 16:17 +0100
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Alexander Terekhov <terekhov@web.de> - 2011-06-16 17:37 +0200
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence "Chris M. Thomasson" <cristom@charter.net> - 2011-06-16 08:47 -0700
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Anthony Williams <anthony.ajw@gmail.com> - 2011-06-16 16:54 +0100
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence "Chris M. Thomasson" <cristom@charter.net> - 2011-06-16 09:01 -0700
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Anthony Williams <anthony.ajw@gmail.com> - 2011-06-16 17:07 +0100
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence "Chris M. Thomasson" <cristom@charter.net> - 2011-06-16 13:59 -0700
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Joshua Maurice <joshuamaurice@gmail.com> - 2011-06-16 14:32 -0700
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Anthony Williams <anthony.ajw@gmail.com> - 2011-06-17 08:03 +0100
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Alexander Terekhov <terekhov@web.de> - 2011-06-17 16:19 +0200
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Anthony Williams <anthony.ajw@gmail.com> - 2011-06-17 15:40 +0100
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Alexander Terekhov <terekhov@web.de> - 2011-06-30 14:26 +0200
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence "Chris M. Thomasson" <cristom@charter.net> - 2011-06-17 15:24 -0700
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Joshua Maurice <joshuamaurice@gmail.com> - 2011-06-18 03:49 -0700
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence "Chris M. Thomasson" <cristom@charter.net> - 2011-06-18 14:40 -0700
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Joshua Maurice <joshuamaurice@gmail.com> - 2011-06-18 15:46 -0700
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence "Chris M. Thomasson" <cristom@charter.net> - 2011-06-18 20:27 -0700
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Joshua Maurice <joshuamaurice@gmail.com> - 2011-06-18 21:31 -0700
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Joshua Maurice <joshuamaurice@gmail.com> - 2011-06-18 21:37 -0700
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence "Chris M. Thomasson" <cristom@charter.net> - 2011-06-20 15:45 -0700
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Joshua Maurice <joshuamaurice@gmail.com> - 2011-06-20 20:05 -0700
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Alexander Terekhov <terekhov@web.de> - 2011-06-18 14:06 +0200
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Alexander Terekhov <terekhov@web.de> - 2011-06-16 18:32 +0200
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence "Chris M. Thomasson" <cristom@charter.net> - 2011-06-16 15:42 -0700
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Edek <edek.pienkowski@gmail.com> - 2011-07-10 19:47 +0200
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence "Chris M. Thomasson" <cristom@charter.net> - 2011-06-16 08:51 -0700
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Anthony Williams <anthony.ajw@gmail.com> - 2011-06-16 17:23 +0100
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Alexander Terekhov <terekhov@web.de> - 2011-06-16 18:49 +0200
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence "Chris M. Thomasson" <cristom@charter.net> - 2011-06-16 08:51 -0700
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Alexander Terekhov <terekhov@web.de> - 2011-06-16 17:25 +0200
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Anthony Williams <anthony.ajw@gmail.com> - 2011-06-16 16:56 +0100
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Alexander Terekhov <terekhov@web.de> - 2011-06-18 14:28 +0200
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Anthony Williams <anthony.ajw@gmail.com> - 2011-06-20 09:54 +0100
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Alexander Terekhov <terekhov@web.de> - 2011-06-20 15:39 +0200
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Alexander Terekhov <terekhov@web.de> - 2011-06-22 13:24 +0200
          Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Edek <edek.pienkowski@gmail.com> - 2011-06-16 14:39 +0200
            Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Anthony Williams <anthony.ajw@gmail.com> - 2011-06-16 13:55 +0100
        Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Alexander Terekhov <terekhov@web.de> - 2011-06-16 12:03 +0200
          Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Edek <edek.pienkowski@gmail.com> - 2011-07-10 19:10 +0200
  Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Joshua Maurice <joshuamaurice@gmail.com> - 2011-06-13 16:00 -0700
    Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Joshua Maurice <joshuamaurice@gmail.com> - 2011-06-13 23:31 -0700
      Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Masakuni Oishi <yamasa@bsdhouse.org> - 2011-06-14 08:32 -0700
  Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Anthony Williams <anthony.ajw@gmail.com> - 2011-06-14 23:05 +0100
    Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Joshua Maurice <joshuamaurice@gmail.com> - 2011-06-14 16:44 -0700
      Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Anthony Williams <anthony.ajw@gmail.com> - 2011-06-15 08:34 +0100
        Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Masakuni Oishi <yamasa@bsdhouse.org> - 2011-06-15 02:11 -0700
        Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Joshua Maurice <joshuamaurice@gmail.com> - 2011-06-15 15:58 -0700
        Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Anthony Williams <anthony.ajw@gmail.com> - 2011-06-16 08:26 +0100
          Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Masakuni Oishi <yamasa@bsdhouse.org> - 2011-06-16 05:05 -0700
            Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Anthony Williams <anthony.ajw@gmail.com> - 2011-06-16 13:11 +0100
              Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Alexander Terekhov <terekhov@web.de> - 2011-06-18 15:42 +0200
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Anthony Williams <anthony.ajw@gmail.com> - 2011-06-20 09:27 +0100
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Alexander Terekhov <terekhov@web.de> - 2011-06-20 15:30 +0200
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Anthony Williams <anthony.ajw@gmail.com> - 2011-06-20 15:00 +0100
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Alexander Terekhov <terekhov@web.de> - 2011-06-21 14:54 +0200
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Alexander Terekhov <terekhov@web.de> - 2011-06-21 18:37 +0200
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Alexander Terekhov <terekhov@web.de> - 2011-06-21 15:59 +0200
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Anthony Williams <anthony.ajw@gmail.com> - 2011-06-22 09:01 -0700
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Anthony Williams <anthony.ajw@gmail.com> - 2011-06-20 15:41 +0100
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Masakuni Oishi <yamasa@bsdhouse.org> - 2011-06-20 23:24 -0700
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Masakuni Oishi <yamasa@bsdhouse.org> - 2011-06-22 10:46 -0700
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Masakuni Oishi <yamasa@bsdhouse.org> - 2011-06-22 11:19 -0700
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Masakuni Oishi <yamasa@bsdhouse.org> - 2011-06-22 11:57 -0700
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Alexander Terekhov <terekhov@web.de> - 2011-06-27 14:05 +0200
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Joshua Maurice <joshuamaurice@gmail.com> - 2011-06-29 16:14 -0700
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Anthony Williams <anthony.ajw@gmail.com> - 2011-06-24 01:42 -0700
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Alexander Terekhov <terekhov@web.de> - 2011-06-27 13:24 +0200
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Anthony Williams <anthony.ajw@gmail.com> - 2011-07-01 02:25 -0700
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Alexander Terekhov <terekhov@web.de> - 2011-07-01 12:48 +0200
      Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Masakuni Oishi <yamasa@bsdhouse.org> - 2011-06-15 01:53 -0700
        Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Joshua Maurice <joshuamaurice@gmail.com> - 2011-06-15 02:57 -0700
    Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence "Chris M. Thomasson" <cristom@charter.net> - 2011-06-15 02:06 -0700

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