Groups > comp.programming.threads > #372

Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence

From	Alexander Terekhov <terekhov@web.de>
Newsgroups	comp.programming.threads
Subject	Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence
Date	2011-06-30 14:26 +0200
Organization	A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID	<4E0C6B6B.81E28269@web.de> (permalink)
References	(15 earlier) <98uKp.16038$SG4.15177@newsfe03.iad> <2671e224-80a9-4e11-a224-64240676069f@y27g2000prb.googlegroups.com> <871uyt3pns.fsf@justsoftwaresolutions.co.uk> <4DFB6257.8C513BD7@web.de> <87wrgk34ip.fsf@justsoftwaresolutions.co.uk>

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Anthony Williams wrote:
> 
> Alexander Terekhov <terekhov@web.de> writes:
> 
> > Anthony Williams wrote:
> > [...]
> >> SC fences should order relaxed reads, but the final result was that they
> >> don't, as it was too expensive on some architectures (such as IA-64).
> >
> > Care to elaborate? What is the problem regarding IA-64?
> 
> I don't remember, and my notes don't say. I think there was some
> discussion that relaxed loads would have to be more than just a plain LD
> instruction if SC fences were to order them, but I really don't remember
> the details, and wasn't privy to the entire discussion anyway.

(from the ongoing email discussion regarding 
http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~pes20/cpp/cpp0xmappings.html )

<Forward Quoted>

Hans Boehm wrote:
[...]
> > [load relaxed]
> >
> >> The problem with a plain ld is that it can be reordered with other
> >> loads from the same location, violating cache coherence.
> >
> > Do you mean that
> >
> > (initially: x = 0)
> >
> > T1: st x = 1;
> > T2: r1 = ld x; r2 = ld x;
> >
> > r1 == 1, r2 == 0 is allowed due to unordered loads?
> >
> > Well, that's really interesting...
> 
> According to the spec, yes.  Whether any implementations allow that, 
> I do not know.
[...]
> Memory_order_relaxed indeed appears to be entirely useless on Itanium.
[...]
> Abbreviating the example, everything is relaxed, except fences are 
> seq_cst:
> 
> Thread 1:               Thread 2:          Thread 3:
> r3 = y (1)		  x = 1              r2 = x (1)
> fence1                                     fence2
> r1 = x (0)                                 y = 1
> 
> We conclude by 29.8p2 that fence2 happens-before fence1.
> 
> Since the initializing write of zero to x precedes the explicit 
> store to x in modification order, and the thread 3 read of x 
> sees the later one, so must the thread 1 read of x, so this is 
> indeed disallowed.
> 
> For the Itanium spec, I'm referring to 
> http://download.intel.com/design/itanium/downloads/25142901.pdf , 
> "A Formal Specification of Intel Itanium Processor Family 
> Memory Ordering", Oct. 2002.
> 
> In the Itanium translation with st, this indeed does not appear 
> to be enforced.  The store to x can occur and become locally 
> visible before anything else (except the initializing write), 
> and remotely visible on thread 3 shortly thereafter, without 
> imposing any constraints on remote visibility at thread 1.  And, 
> in spite of my earlier claim, I think the same issue arises if 
> we use acquire/release operations on y instead of the fences.  
> Thus my natural inclination to blame all of our problems on 
> fences isn't even correct here :-)
> 
> I really need write atomicity in order to get the kinds of 
> transitivity guarantees I need, and only st.rel provides those.
> 
> This seems to have no impact on RMW operations, since those 
> become globally visible in a single order, even if they are only 
> acquire operations.

regards,
alexander.

Thread

questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Masakuni Oishi <yamasa@bsdhouse.org> - 2011-06-13 09:40 -0700
  Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Edek <edek.pienkowski@gmail.com> - 2011-06-13 22:39 +0200
    Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Masakuni Oishi <yamasa@bsdhouse.org> - 2011-06-14 08:27 -0700
      Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Edek <edek.pienkowski@gmail.com> - 2011-06-16 00:21 +0200
        Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Joshua Maurice <joshuamaurice@gmail.com> - 2011-06-15 15:48 -0700
          Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Masakuni Oishi <yamasa@bsdhouse.org> - 2011-06-16 05:03 -0700
        Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Anthony Williams <anthony.ajw@gmail.com> - 2011-06-16 08:35 +0100
          Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Alexander Terekhov <terekhov@web.de> - 2011-06-16 12:05 +0200
            Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Anthony Williams <anthony.ajw@gmail.com> - 2011-06-16 11:19 +0100
              Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Alexander Terekhov <terekhov@web.de> - 2011-06-16 13:57 +0200
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Anthony Williams <anthony.ajw@gmail.com> - 2011-06-16 13:51 +0100
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Alexander Terekhov <terekhov@web.de> - 2011-06-16 16:53 +0200
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Anthony Williams <anthony.ajw@gmail.com> - 2011-06-16 16:17 +0100
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Alexander Terekhov <terekhov@web.de> - 2011-06-16 17:37 +0200
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence "Chris M. Thomasson" <cristom@charter.net> - 2011-06-16 08:47 -0700
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Anthony Williams <anthony.ajw@gmail.com> - 2011-06-16 16:54 +0100
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence "Chris M. Thomasson" <cristom@charter.net> - 2011-06-16 09:01 -0700
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Anthony Williams <anthony.ajw@gmail.com> - 2011-06-16 17:07 +0100
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence "Chris M. Thomasson" <cristom@charter.net> - 2011-06-16 13:59 -0700
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Joshua Maurice <joshuamaurice@gmail.com> - 2011-06-16 14:32 -0700
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Anthony Williams <anthony.ajw@gmail.com> - 2011-06-17 08:03 +0100
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Alexander Terekhov <terekhov@web.de> - 2011-06-17 16:19 +0200
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Anthony Williams <anthony.ajw@gmail.com> - 2011-06-17 15:40 +0100
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Alexander Terekhov <terekhov@web.de> - 2011-06-30 14:26 +0200
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence "Chris M. Thomasson" <cristom@charter.net> - 2011-06-17 15:24 -0700
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Joshua Maurice <joshuamaurice@gmail.com> - 2011-06-18 03:49 -0700
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence "Chris M. Thomasson" <cristom@charter.net> - 2011-06-18 14:40 -0700
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Joshua Maurice <joshuamaurice@gmail.com> - 2011-06-18 15:46 -0700
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence "Chris M. Thomasson" <cristom@charter.net> - 2011-06-18 20:27 -0700
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Joshua Maurice <joshuamaurice@gmail.com> - 2011-06-18 21:31 -0700
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Joshua Maurice <joshuamaurice@gmail.com> - 2011-06-18 21:37 -0700
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence "Chris M. Thomasson" <cristom@charter.net> - 2011-06-20 15:45 -0700
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Joshua Maurice <joshuamaurice@gmail.com> - 2011-06-20 20:05 -0700
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Alexander Terekhov <terekhov@web.de> - 2011-06-18 14:06 +0200
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Alexander Terekhov <terekhov@web.de> - 2011-06-16 18:32 +0200
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence "Chris M. Thomasson" <cristom@charter.net> - 2011-06-16 15:42 -0700
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Edek <edek.pienkowski@gmail.com> - 2011-07-10 19:47 +0200
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence "Chris M. Thomasson" <cristom@charter.net> - 2011-06-16 08:51 -0700
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Anthony Williams <anthony.ajw@gmail.com> - 2011-06-16 17:23 +0100
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Alexander Terekhov <terekhov@web.de> - 2011-06-16 18:49 +0200
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence "Chris M. Thomasson" <cristom@charter.net> - 2011-06-16 08:51 -0700
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Alexander Terekhov <terekhov@web.de> - 2011-06-16 17:25 +0200
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Anthony Williams <anthony.ajw@gmail.com> - 2011-06-16 16:56 +0100
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Alexander Terekhov <terekhov@web.de> - 2011-06-18 14:28 +0200
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Anthony Williams <anthony.ajw@gmail.com> - 2011-06-20 09:54 +0100
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Alexander Terekhov <terekhov@web.de> - 2011-06-20 15:39 +0200
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Alexander Terekhov <terekhov@web.de> - 2011-06-22 13:24 +0200
          Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Edek <edek.pienkowski@gmail.com> - 2011-06-16 14:39 +0200
            Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Anthony Williams <anthony.ajw@gmail.com> - 2011-06-16 13:55 +0100
        Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Alexander Terekhov <terekhov@web.de> - 2011-06-16 12:03 +0200
          Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Edek <edek.pienkowski@gmail.com> - 2011-07-10 19:10 +0200
  Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Joshua Maurice <joshuamaurice@gmail.com> - 2011-06-13 16:00 -0700
    Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Joshua Maurice <joshuamaurice@gmail.com> - 2011-06-13 23:31 -0700
      Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Masakuni Oishi <yamasa@bsdhouse.org> - 2011-06-14 08:32 -0700
  Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Anthony Williams <anthony.ajw@gmail.com> - 2011-06-14 23:05 +0100
    Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Joshua Maurice <joshuamaurice@gmail.com> - 2011-06-14 16:44 -0700
      Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Anthony Williams <anthony.ajw@gmail.com> - 2011-06-15 08:34 +0100
        Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Masakuni Oishi <yamasa@bsdhouse.org> - 2011-06-15 02:11 -0700
        Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Joshua Maurice <joshuamaurice@gmail.com> - 2011-06-15 15:58 -0700
        Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Anthony Williams <anthony.ajw@gmail.com> - 2011-06-16 08:26 +0100
          Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Masakuni Oishi <yamasa@bsdhouse.org> - 2011-06-16 05:05 -0700
            Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Anthony Williams <anthony.ajw@gmail.com> - 2011-06-16 13:11 +0100
              Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Alexander Terekhov <terekhov@web.de> - 2011-06-18 15:42 +0200
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Anthony Williams <anthony.ajw@gmail.com> - 2011-06-20 09:27 +0100
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Alexander Terekhov <terekhov@web.de> - 2011-06-20 15:30 +0200
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Anthony Williams <anthony.ajw@gmail.com> - 2011-06-20 15:00 +0100
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Alexander Terekhov <terekhov@web.de> - 2011-06-21 14:54 +0200
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Alexander Terekhov <terekhov@web.de> - 2011-06-21 18:37 +0200
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Alexander Terekhov <terekhov@web.de> - 2011-06-21 15:59 +0200
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Anthony Williams <anthony.ajw@gmail.com> - 2011-06-22 09:01 -0700
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Anthony Williams <anthony.ajw@gmail.com> - 2011-06-20 15:41 +0100
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Masakuni Oishi <yamasa@bsdhouse.org> - 2011-06-20 23:24 -0700
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Masakuni Oishi <yamasa@bsdhouse.org> - 2011-06-22 10:46 -0700
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Masakuni Oishi <yamasa@bsdhouse.org> - 2011-06-22 11:19 -0700
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Masakuni Oishi <yamasa@bsdhouse.org> - 2011-06-22 11:57 -0700
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Alexander Terekhov <terekhov@web.de> - 2011-06-27 14:05 +0200
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Joshua Maurice <joshuamaurice@gmail.com> - 2011-06-29 16:14 -0700
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Anthony Williams <anthony.ajw@gmail.com> - 2011-06-24 01:42 -0700
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Alexander Terekhov <terekhov@web.de> - 2011-06-27 13:24 +0200
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Anthony Williams <anthony.ajw@gmail.com> - 2011-07-01 02:25 -0700
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Alexander Terekhov <terekhov@web.de> - 2011-07-01 12:48 +0200
      Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Masakuni Oishi <yamasa@bsdhouse.org> - 2011-06-15 01:53 -0700
        Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Joshua Maurice <joshuamaurice@gmail.com> - 2011-06-15 02:57 -0700
    Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence "Chris M. Thomasson" <cristom@charter.net> - 2011-06-15 02:06 -0700

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