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Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence

From Alexander Terekhov <terekhov@web.de>
Newsgroups comp.programming.threads
Subject Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence
Date 2011-06-16 13:57 +0200
Organization A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID <4DF9EF9A.911CC74F@web.de> (permalink)
References (2 earlier) <b7657dae-d49f-4859-8020-b5d76bfae2cd@p9g2000prh.googlegroups.com> <itbb7k$uhh$1@node2.news.atman.pl> <87boxyfctc.fsf@justsoftwaresolutions.co.uk> <4DF9D581.E607BEB4@web.de> <8739jaf59n.fsf@justsoftwaresolutions.co.uk>

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Anthony Williams wrote:
> 
> Alexander Terekhov <terekhov@web.de> writes:
> 
> > Anthony Williams wrote:
> >>
> >> Edek <edek.pienkowski@gmail.com> writes:
> >>
> >> > As a side note, I compiled all ops on x86_64, and atomic<int>::load
> >> > is mfence/load/mfence even for relaxed. I'd need some time to analyse
> >> > the thing from perspective of other ops implementations in all
> >> > orderings, and this leads me to the not so subtle question:
> >>
> >> Ouch. That is a seriously over-cautious implementation. Atomics should
> >> not need any fences on x86_64 unless you actually write
> >> atomic_thread_fence(memory_order_seq_cst)
> >>
> >> See my blog entry for the required operations:
> >>
> >> http://www.justsoftwaresolutions.co.uk/threading/intel-memory-ordering-and-c++-memory-model.html
> >>
> >> The only one that is not a plain MOV is a seq_cst store, which is an
> >> XCHG.
> >
> > I believe that a seq_cst load is not a plain move either...
> 
> Why do think it shouldn't be, 

Akin to what Jeffrey Yasskin said on your blog:

http://www.justsoftwaresolutions.co.uk/threading/intel-memory-ordering-and-c++-memory-model.html

"Do you happen to have a link to a proof that a plain mov is all that's
needed for a sequentially-consistent load? I see from the memory model
documents that the xchg'es all happen in a total order, and that movs
won't be reordered across xchg, but I'm having trouble getting from
there to sequential consistency.

by Jeffrey Yasskin at 07:23:51 on Wednesday, 19 May 2010"

Do *you* happen to have a link to a proof?

> and what do you think it should be instead?

http://www.decadent.org.uk/pipermail/cpp-threads/2008-December/001933.html

"Load Seq_Cst:  LOCK XADD(0) // alternative: MFENCE,MOV (from memory)"

http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=1926394

"Sequentially consistent atomics 

The proposal above includes two implementations of sequentially
consistent atomic reads and writes; one with the x86 locked
instructions, and the other with fence instructions on both the reads
and writes. However, we can prove that it suffices either to place an
mfence before every sc read, or after every sc write, but that it is not
necessary to do both. In practice, placing the fence after the sc writes
is expected to yield higher performance."

> 
> The mapping in my blog post was confirmed by Intel processor engineers.

Without a proof?

regards,
alexander.

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Thread

questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Masakuni Oishi <yamasa@bsdhouse.org> - 2011-06-13 09:40 -0700
  Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Edek <edek.pienkowski@gmail.com> - 2011-06-13 22:39 +0200
    Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Masakuni Oishi <yamasa@bsdhouse.org> - 2011-06-14 08:27 -0700
      Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Edek <edek.pienkowski@gmail.com> - 2011-06-16 00:21 +0200
        Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Joshua Maurice <joshuamaurice@gmail.com> - 2011-06-15 15:48 -0700
          Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Masakuni Oishi <yamasa@bsdhouse.org> - 2011-06-16 05:03 -0700
        Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Anthony Williams <anthony.ajw@gmail.com> - 2011-06-16 08:35 +0100
          Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Alexander Terekhov <terekhov@web.de> - 2011-06-16 12:05 +0200
            Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Anthony Williams <anthony.ajw@gmail.com> - 2011-06-16 11:19 +0100
              Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Alexander Terekhov <terekhov@web.de> - 2011-06-16 13:57 +0200
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Anthony Williams <anthony.ajw@gmail.com> - 2011-06-16 13:51 +0100
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Alexander Terekhov <terekhov@web.de> - 2011-06-16 16:53 +0200
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Anthony Williams <anthony.ajw@gmail.com> - 2011-06-16 16:17 +0100
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Alexander Terekhov <terekhov@web.de> - 2011-06-16 17:37 +0200
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence "Chris M. Thomasson" <cristom@charter.net> - 2011-06-16 08:47 -0700
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Anthony Williams <anthony.ajw@gmail.com> - 2011-06-16 16:54 +0100
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence "Chris M. Thomasson" <cristom@charter.net> - 2011-06-16 09:01 -0700
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Anthony Williams <anthony.ajw@gmail.com> - 2011-06-16 17:07 +0100
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence "Chris M. Thomasson" <cristom@charter.net> - 2011-06-16 13:59 -0700
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Joshua Maurice <joshuamaurice@gmail.com> - 2011-06-16 14:32 -0700
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Anthony Williams <anthony.ajw@gmail.com> - 2011-06-17 08:03 +0100
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Alexander Terekhov <terekhov@web.de> - 2011-06-17 16:19 +0200
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Anthony Williams <anthony.ajw@gmail.com> - 2011-06-17 15:40 +0100
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Alexander Terekhov <terekhov@web.de> - 2011-06-30 14:26 +0200
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence "Chris M. Thomasson" <cristom@charter.net> - 2011-06-17 15:24 -0700
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Joshua Maurice <joshuamaurice@gmail.com> - 2011-06-18 03:49 -0700
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence "Chris M. Thomasson" <cristom@charter.net> - 2011-06-18 14:40 -0700
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Joshua Maurice <joshuamaurice@gmail.com> - 2011-06-18 15:46 -0700
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence "Chris M. Thomasson" <cristom@charter.net> - 2011-06-18 20:27 -0700
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Joshua Maurice <joshuamaurice@gmail.com> - 2011-06-18 21:31 -0700
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Joshua Maurice <joshuamaurice@gmail.com> - 2011-06-18 21:37 -0700
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence "Chris M. Thomasson" <cristom@charter.net> - 2011-06-20 15:45 -0700
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Joshua Maurice <joshuamaurice@gmail.com> - 2011-06-20 20:05 -0700
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Alexander Terekhov <terekhov@web.de> - 2011-06-18 14:06 +0200
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Alexander Terekhov <terekhov@web.de> - 2011-06-16 18:32 +0200
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence "Chris M. Thomasson" <cristom@charter.net> - 2011-06-16 15:42 -0700
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Edek <edek.pienkowski@gmail.com> - 2011-07-10 19:47 +0200
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence "Chris M. Thomasson" <cristom@charter.net> - 2011-06-16 08:51 -0700
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Anthony Williams <anthony.ajw@gmail.com> - 2011-06-16 17:23 +0100
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Alexander Terekhov <terekhov@web.de> - 2011-06-16 18:49 +0200
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence "Chris M. Thomasson" <cristom@charter.net> - 2011-06-16 08:51 -0700
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Alexander Terekhov <terekhov@web.de> - 2011-06-16 17:25 +0200
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Anthony Williams <anthony.ajw@gmail.com> - 2011-06-16 16:56 +0100
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Alexander Terekhov <terekhov@web.de> - 2011-06-18 14:28 +0200
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Anthony Williams <anthony.ajw@gmail.com> - 2011-06-20 09:54 +0100
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Alexander Terekhov <terekhov@web.de> - 2011-06-20 15:39 +0200
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Alexander Terekhov <terekhov@web.de> - 2011-06-22 13:24 +0200
          Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Edek <edek.pienkowski@gmail.com> - 2011-06-16 14:39 +0200
            Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Anthony Williams <anthony.ajw@gmail.com> - 2011-06-16 13:55 +0100
        Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Alexander Terekhov <terekhov@web.de> - 2011-06-16 12:03 +0200
          Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Edek <edek.pienkowski@gmail.com> - 2011-07-10 19:10 +0200
  Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Joshua Maurice <joshuamaurice@gmail.com> - 2011-06-13 16:00 -0700
    Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Joshua Maurice <joshuamaurice@gmail.com> - 2011-06-13 23:31 -0700
      Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Masakuni Oishi <yamasa@bsdhouse.org> - 2011-06-14 08:32 -0700
  Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Anthony Williams <anthony.ajw@gmail.com> - 2011-06-14 23:05 +0100
    Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Joshua Maurice <joshuamaurice@gmail.com> - 2011-06-14 16:44 -0700
      Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Anthony Williams <anthony.ajw@gmail.com> - 2011-06-15 08:34 +0100
        Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Masakuni Oishi <yamasa@bsdhouse.org> - 2011-06-15 02:11 -0700
        Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Joshua Maurice <joshuamaurice@gmail.com> - 2011-06-15 15:58 -0700
        Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Anthony Williams <anthony.ajw@gmail.com> - 2011-06-16 08:26 +0100
          Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Masakuni Oishi <yamasa@bsdhouse.org> - 2011-06-16 05:05 -0700
            Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Anthony Williams <anthony.ajw@gmail.com> - 2011-06-16 13:11 +0100
              Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Alexander Terekhov <terekhov@web.de> - 2011-06-18 15:42 +0200
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Anthony Williams <anthony.ajw@gmail.com> - 2011-06-20 09:27 +0100
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Alexander Terekhov <terekhov@web.de> - 2011-06-20 15:30 +0200
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Anthony Williams <anthony.ajw@gmail.com> - 2011-06-20 15:00 +0100
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Alexander Terekhov <terekhov@web.de> - 2011-06-21 14:54 +0200
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Alexander Terekhov <terekhov@web.de> - 2011-06-21 18:37 +0200
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Alexander Terekhov <terekhov@web.de> - 2011-06-21 15:59 +0200
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Anthony Williams <anthony.ajw@gmail.com> - 2011-06-22 09:01 -0700
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Anthony Williams <anthony.ajw@gmail.com> - 2011-06-20 15:41 +0100
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Masakuni Oishi <yamasa@bsdhouse.org> - 2011-06-20 23:24 -0700
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Masakuni Oishi <yamasa@bsdhouse.org> - 2011-06-22 10:46 -0700
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Masakuni Oishi <yamasa@bsdhouse.org> - 2011-06-22 11:19 -0700
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Masakuni Oishi <yamasa@bsdhouse.org> - 2011-06-22 11:57 -0700
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Alexander Terekhov <terekhov@web.de> - 2011-06-27 14:05 +0200
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Joshua Maurice <joshuamaurice@gmail.com> - 2011-06-29 16:14 -0700
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Anthony Williams <anthony.ajw@gmail.com> - 2011-06-24 01:42 -0700
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Alexander Terekhov <terekhov@web.de> - 2011-06-27 13:24 +0200
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Anthony Williams <anthony.ajw@gmail.com> - 2011-07-01 02:25 -0700
                Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Alexander Terekhov <terekhov@web.de> - 2011-07-01 12:48 +0200
      Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Masakuni Oishi <yamasa@bsdhouse.org> - 2011-06-15 01:53 -0700
        Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence Joshua Maurice <joshuamaurice@gmail.com> - 2011-06-15 02:57 -0700
    Re: questions about memory_order_seq_cst fence "Chris M. Thomasson" <cristom@charter.net> - 2011-06-15 02:06 -0700

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