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Groups > comp.os.vms > #58112 > unrolled thread
| Started by | "Paul Richards" <paulrichards@iinet.net.au> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2016-06-08 18:18 -0500 |
| Last post | 2016-06-10 08:26 -0500 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 150 — 23 participants |
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Where to locate software "Paul Richards" <paulrichards@iinet.net.au> - 2016-06-08 18:18 -0500
Re: Where to locate software David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> - 2016-06-08 19:39 -0400
Re: Where to locate software "Paul Richards" <paulrichards@iinet.net.au> - 2016-06-08 20:28 -0500
Re: Where to locate software "Bill Pedersen" <pedersen@ccsscorp.com> - 2016-06-08 19:40 -0400
Re: Where to locate software "Paul Richards" <paulrichards@iinet.net.au> - 2016-06-08 20:30 -0500
Re: Where to locate software "Bill Pedersen" <pedersen@ccsscorp.com> - 2016-06-08 22:24 -0400
Re: Where to locate software "Paul Richards" <paulrichards@iinet.net.au> - 2016-06-08 22:57 -0500
Re: Where to locate software Steven Schweda <sms.antinode@gmail.com> - 2016-06-08 17:02 -0700
Re: Where to locate software "Paul Richards" <paulrichards@iinet.net.au> - 2016-06-08 20:31 -0500
Re: Where to locate software lawrencedo99@gmail.com - 2016-06-08 21:53 -0700
Re: Where to locate software Steven Schweda <sms.antinode@gmail.com> - 2016-06-08 22:19 -0700
Re: Where to locate software Richard Levitte <richard@levitte.org> - 2016-06-09 02:47 -0700
Re: Where to locate software lawrencedo99@gmail.com - 2016-06-09 13:39 -0700
Re: Where to locate software Stephen Hoffman <seaohveh@hoffmanlabs.invalid> - 2016-06-09 08:42 -0400
Re: Where to locate software Jan-Erik Soderholm <jan-erik.soderholm@telia.com> - 2016-06-09 14:58 +0200
Re: Where to locate software Stephen Hoffman <seaohveh@hoffmanlabs.invalid> - 2016-06-09 10:27 -0400
Re: Where to locate software David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> - 2016-06-09 11:33 -0400
Re: Where to locate software David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> - 2016-06-09 11:43 -0400
Re: Where to locate software johnwallace4@yahoo.co.uk - 2016-06-09 09:19 -0700
Re: Where to locate software Stephen Hoffman <seaohveh@hoffmanlabs.invalid> - 2016-06-09 13:13 -0400
Re: Where to locate software Simon Clubley <clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP> - 2016-06-09 18:58 +0000
Re: Where to locate software Simon Clubley <clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP> - 2016-06-09 18:59 +0000
Re: Where to locate software David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> - 2016-06-09 22:01 -0400
Re: VMS FAQ (was Re: Where to locate software) Stephen Hoffman <seaohveh@hoffmanlabs.invalid> - 2016-06-10 10:58 -0400
Re: VMS FAQ (was Re: Where to locate software) Kerry Main <kerry.main@backtothefutureit.com> - 2016-06-10 16:50 +0000
Re: Where to locate software koehler@eisner.nospam.decuserve.org (Bob Koehler) - 2016-06-09 13:28 -0400
Re: Where to locate software David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> - 2016-06-09 22:06 -0400
Re: Where to locate software VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG - 2016-06-09 13:58 +0000
Re: Where to locate software Stephen Hoffman <seaohveh@hoffmanlabs.invalid> - 2016-06-09 11:16 -0400
Re: Where to locate software Kerry Main <kerry.main@backtothefutureit.com> - 2016-06-09 14:46 +0000
Re: Where to locate software Stephen Hoffman <seaohveh@hoffmanlabs.invalid> - 2016-06-09 12:43 -0400
Re: Where to locate software lawrencedo99@gmail.com - 2016-06-09 13:50 -0700
Re: Where to locate software David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> - 2016-06-09 22:20 -0400
Re: Where to locate software Stephen Hoffman <seaohveh@hoffmanlabs.invalid> - 2016-06-10 11:11 -0400
Re: Where to locate software David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> - 2016-06-10 11:56 -0400
Re: Where to locate software johnwallace4@yahoo.co.uk - 2016-06-10 10:19 -0700
Re: Where to locate software Simon Clubley <clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP> - 2016-06-10 18:03 +0000
Re: Where to locate software Stephen Hoffman <seaohveh@hoffmanlabs.invalid> - 2016-06-10 15:59 -0400
Re: Where to locate software koehler@eisner.nospam.decuserve.org (Bob Koehler) - 2016-06-13 09:02 -0400
Re: Where to locate software Paul Sture <nospam@sture.ch> - 2016-06-13 16:34 +0200
Re: Where to locate software David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> - 2016-06-10 16:53 -0400
Re: Where to locate software Hans Vlems <hvlems@freenet.de> - 2016-06-11 00:27 -0700
Re: Where to locate software johnwallace4@yahoo.co.uk - 2016-06-11 01:37 -0700
Re: Where to locate software Hans Vlems <hvlems@freenet.de> - 2016-06-11 03:21 -0700
Re: Where to locate software David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> - 2016-06-11 22:02 -0400
Re: Where to locate software David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> - 2016-06-11 22:27 -0400
Re: Where to locate software koehler@eisner.nospam.decuserve.org (Bob Koehler) - 2016-06-13 09:05 -0400
Re: Where to locate software Kerry Main <kerry.main@backtothefutureit.com> - 2016-06-10 16:13 +0000
Re: Where to locate software Stephen Hoffman <seaohveh@hoffmanlabs.invalid> - 2016-06-10 15:50 -0400
Re: Where to locate software Kerry Main <kerry.main@backtothefutureit.com> - 2016-06-10 20:54 +0000
Re: Where to locate software Stephen Hoffman <seaohveh@hoffmanlabs.invalid> - 2016-06-10 17:47 -0400
Re: Where to locate software Kerry Main <kerry.main@backtothefutureit.com> - 2016-06-11 01:59 +0000
Re: Where to locate software lawrencedo99@gmail.com - 2016-06-10 19:13 -0700
Re: Where to locate software Kerry Main <kerry.main@backtothefutureit.com> - 2016-06-11 03:01 +0000
Re: Where to locate software lawrencedo99@gmail.com - 2016-06-10 22:47 -0700
Re: Where to locate software Kerry Main <kerry.main@backtothefutureit.com> - 2016-06-11 12:45 +0000
Re: Where to locate software Stephen Hoffman <seaohveh@hoffmanlabs.invalid> - 2016-06-11 15:02 -0400
Re: Where to locate software Kerry Main <kerry.main@backtothefutureit.com> - 2016-06-12 02:07 +0000
Re: Where to locate software David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> - 2016-06-11 22:05 -0400
Re: Where to locate software Kerry Main <kerry.main@backtothefutureit.com> - 2016-06-12 04:17 +0000
Re: Where to locate software Kerry Main <kerry.main@backtothefutureit.com> - 2016-06-11 03:09 +0000
Re: Where to locate software David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> - 2016-06-10 23:39 -0400
Re: Where to locate software lawrencedo99@gmail.com - 2016-06-10 22:44 -0700
Re: Where to locate software johnwallace4@yahoo.co.uk - 2016-06-11 01:42 -0700
Re: Where to locate software lawrencedo99@gmail.com - 2016-06-11 18:25 -0700
Re: Where to locate software Paul Sture <nospam@sture.ch> - 2016-06-11 11:15 +0200
Re: Where to locate software Stephen Hoffman <seaohveh@hoffmanlabs.invalid> - 2016-06-11 13:44 -0400
Re: Where to locate software johnwallace4@yahoo.co.uk - 2016-06-11 11:54 -0700
Re: Where to locate software Stephen Hoffman <seaohveh@hoffmanlabs.invalid> - 2016-06-11 15:23 -0400
Re: Where to locate software lawrencedo99@gmail.com - 2016-06-11 18:28 -0700
Re: Where to locate software David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> - 2016-06-11 22:38 -0400
Re: Where to locate software lawrencedo99@gmail.com - 2016-06-12 00:59 -0700
Re: Where to locate software Kerry Main <kerry.main@backtothefutureit.com> - 2016-06-12 14:09 +0000
devops / source control - (Was: Where to locate software) "John E. Malmberg" <wb8tyw@qsl.net_work> - 2016-06-12 10:43 -0500
Re: devops / source control - (Was: Where to locate software) "John E. Malmberg" <wb8tyw@qsl.net_work> - 2016-06-12 11:08 -0500
Re: Where to locate software Stephen Hoffman <seaohveh@hoffmanlabs.invalid> - 2016-06-12 12:53 -0400
Re: Where to locate software Kerry Main <kerry.main@backtothefutureit.com> - 2016-06-12 17:31 +0000
Re: Where to locate software Stephen Hoffman <seaohveh@hoffmanlabs.invalid> - 2016-06-12 15:23 -0400
Re: Where to locate software Kerry Main <kerry.main@backtothefutureit.com> - 2016-06-12 20:28 +0000
Re: Where to locate software lawrencedo99@gmail.com - 2016-06-12 17:49 -0700
Re: Where to locate software Kerry Main <kerry.main@backtothefutureit.com> - 2016-06-13 13:02 +0000
Re: Where to locate software Stephen Hoffman <seaohveh@hoffmanlabs.invalid> - 2016-06-13 09:40 -0400
Re: Where to locate software Kerry Main <kerry.main@backtothefutureit.com> - 2016-06-13 14:33 +0000
Re: Where to locate software Paul Sture <nospam@sture.ch> - 2016-06-13 16:20 +0200
Re: Where to locate software Kerry Main <kerry.main@backtothefutureit.com> - 2016-06-13 15:12 +0000
Re: Where to locate software RobertsonEricW <robertsonericw@netzero.net> - 2016-06-13 08:55 -0700
Re: Where to locate software John Reagan <xyzzy1959@gmail.com> - 2016-06-13 09:07 -0700
Re: Where to locate software "John E. Malmberg" <wb8tyw@qsl.net_work> - 2016-06-16 15:16 -0500
Re: Where to locate software lawrencedo99@gmail.com - 2016-06-16 20:25 -0700
Re: Where to locate software Richard Levitte <richard@levitte.org> - 2016-06-16 23:24 -0700
Re: Where to locate software Paul Sture <nospam@sture.ch> - 2016-06-19 06:21 +0200
Re: Where to locate software Paul Sture <nospam@sture.ch> - 2016-06-19 06:08 +0200
Re: Where to locate software lawrencedo99@gmail.com - 2016-06-18 21:52 -0700
Re: Where to locate software "John E. Malmberg" <wb8tyw@qsl.net_work> - 2016-06-19 19:17 -0500
Re: Where to locate software lawrencedo99@gmail.com - 2016-06-13 15:03 -0700
Re: Where to locate software koehler@eisner.nospam.decuserve.org (Bob Koehler) - 2016-06-13 09:08 -0400
Re: Where to locate software "Craig A. Berry" <craigberry@nospam.mac.com> - 2016-06-13 21:05 -0500
Re: Where to locate software Kerry Main <kerry.main@backtothefutureit.com> - 2016-06-14 03:49 +0000
Re: Where to locate software lawrencedo99@gmail.com - 2016-06-13 21:28 -0700
Re: Where to locate software koehler@eisner.nospam.decuserve.org (Bob Koehler) - 2016-06-14 09:52 -0400
Re: Where to locate software David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> - 2016-06-14 12:11 -0400
Re: Where to locate software Stephen Hoffman <seaohveh@hoffmanlabs.invalid> - 2016-06-14 14:27 -0400
Re: Where to locate software Kerry Main <kerry.main@backtothefutureit.com> - 2016-06-14 20:14 +0000
Re: Where to locate software Paul Sture <nospam@sture.ch> - 2016-06-19 12:20 +0200
Re: Where to locate software koehler@eisner.nospam.decuserve.org (Bob Koehler) - 2016-06-21 09:30 -0400
Re: Where to locate software Richard Levitte <richard@levitte.org> - 2016-06-21 09:34 -0700
Re: Where to locate software Paul Sture <nospam@sture.ch> - 2016-07-02 08:23 +0200
Re: Where to locate software lawrencedo99@gmail.com - 2016-06-14 16:22 -0700
Re: Where to locate software lawrencedo99@gmail.com - 2016-06-14 16:20 -0700
Re: Where to locate software koehler@eisner.nospam.decuserve.org (Bob Koehler) - 2016-06-21 09:28 -0400
Re: Where to locate software "Craig A. Berry" <craigberry@nospam.mac.com> - 2016-06-14 18:55 -0500
Re: Where to locate software Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> - 2016-06-15 11:18 +0200
Re: Where to locate software Kerry Main <kerry.main@backtothefutureit.com> - 2016-06-15 12:17 +0000
Re: Where to locate software Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> - 2016-06-15 14:30 +0200
Re: Where to locate software "Craig A. Berry" <craigberry@nospam.mac.com> - 2016-06-15 07:39 -0500
Re: Where to locate software Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> - 2016-06-15 15:23 +0200
Re: Where to locate software "Craig A. Berry" <craig.a.berry@gmail.com> - 2016-06-15 08:03 -0700
Re: Where to locate software Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> - 2016-06-15 19:41 +0200
Re: Where to locate software "Craig A. Berry" <craigberry@nospam.mac.com> - 2016-06-15 19:10 -0500
Re: Where to locate software Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> - 2016-06-16 11:24 +0200
Re: Where to locate software "Craig A. Berry" <craigberry@nospam.mac.com> - 2016-06-16 08:33 -0500
Re: Where to locate software Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> - 2016-06-16 17:09 +0200
Re: Where to locate software "Craig A. Berry" <craigberry@nospam.mac.com> - 2016-06-16 11:12 -0500
Re: Where to locate software Richard Levitte <richard@levitte.org> - 2016-06-16 12:32 -0700
Re: Where to locate software "Craig A. Berry" <craigberry@nospam.mac.com> - 2016-06-16 17:48 -0500
Re: Where to locate software lawrencedo99@gmail.com - 2016-06-16 20:29 -0700
Re: Where to locate software Richard Levitte <richard@levitte.org> - 2016-06-16 23:21 -0700
Re: Where to locate software Paul Sture <nospam@sture.ch> - 2016-06-19 05:56 +0200
Re: Where to locate software David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> - 2016-06-13 13:21 -0400
Re: Where to locate software John Reagan <xyzzy1959@gmail.com> - 2016-06-12 14:46 -0700
Re: Where to locate software lawrencedo99@gmail.com - 2016-06-12 17:53 -0700
Re: Where to locate software Stephen Hoffman <seaohveh@hoffmanlabs.invalid> - 2016-06-12 12:57 -0400
Re: Where to locate software Kerry Main <kerry.main@backtothefutureit.com> - 2016-06-12 18:03 +0000
Re: Where to locate software Stephen Hoffman <seaohveh@hoffmanlabs.invalid> - 2016-06-12 12:46 -0400
Re: Where to locate software David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> - 2016-06-11 22:37 -0400
Re: Where to locate software Chris Scheers <chris@applied-synergy.com> - 2016-06-10 13:28 -0500
Re: Where to locate software David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> - 2016-06-09 11:30 -0400
Re: Where to locate software Stephen Hoffman <seaohveh@hoffmanlabs.invalid> - 2016-06-09 12:48 -0400
Re: Where to locate software Simon Clubley <clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP> - 2016-06-09 18:55 +0000
Re: Where to locate software Stephen Hoffman <seaohveh@hoffmanlabs.invalid> - 2016-06-09 16:00 -0400
Re: Where to locate software johnwallace4@yahoo.co.uk - 2016-06-09 14:18 -0700
Microsoft "innovation", was: Re: Where to locate software Simon Clubley <clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP> - 2016-06-10 17:47 +0000
Re: Where to locate software David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> - 2016-06-09 22:26 -0400
Re: Where to locate software Dale Dellutri <daQQQle@panQQQix.com> - 2016-06-09 15:17 +0000
Re: Where to locate software "Paul Richards" <paulrichards@iinet.net.au> - 2016-06-09 19:29 -0500
Re: Where to locate software Paul Sture <nospam@sture.ch> - 2016-06-10 06:23 +0200
Re: Where to locate software "Paul Richards" <paulrichards@iinet.net.au> - 2016-06-09 23:45 -0500
Re: Where to locate software Steven Schweda <sms.antinode@gmail.com> - 2016-06-09 21:51 -0700
Re: Where to locate software Hans Vlems <hvlems@freenet.de> - 2016-06-10 00:15 -0700
Re: Where to locate software "John E. Malmberg" <wb8tyw@qsl.net_work> - 2016-06-10 08:26 -0500
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| From | Simon Clubley <clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-06-09 18:58 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <njce95$dc3$2@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #58138 |
On 2016-06-09, Stephen Hoffman <seaohveh@hoffmanlabs.invalid> wrote: > On 2016-06-09 16:19:11 +0000, johnwallace4@yahoo.co.uk said: > >> What happened to it and/or its maintainer? > > Off ranting somewhere, most likely. > Yeah, I wondered that happened to that guy. Probably became a bit cynical in his old age. :-) Simon. -- Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP Microsoft: Bringing you 1980s technology to a 21st century world
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| From | Simon Clubley <clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-06-09 18:59 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <njcebc$dc3$3@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #58142 |
On 2016-06-09, Simon Clubley <clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP> wrote: > On 2016-06-09, Stephen Hoffman <seaohveh@hoffmanlabs.invalid> wrote: >> On 2016-06-09 16:19:11 +0000, johnwallace4@yahoo.co.uk said: >> >>> What happened to it and/or its maintainer? >> >> Off ranting somewhere, most likely. >> > > Yeah, I wondered that happened to that guy. Probably became a bit > cynical in his old age. :-) > BTW, for anyone not realising, Stephen was the maintainer in question. Simon. -- Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP Microsoft: Bringing you 1980s technology to a 21st century world
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| From | David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-06-09 22:01 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <njd72c$rbi$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #58135 |
johnwallace4@yahoo.co.uk wrote: > On Thursday, 9 June 2016 16:43:36 UTC+1, David Froble wrote: >> David Froble wrote: >>> Stephen Hoffman wrote: >>>> On 2016-06-09 12:58:12 +0000, Jan-Erik Soderholm said: >>>> >>>>> Now, why was I expecting just that. Instead of some useful tips... >>>> I've spent the last couple of weeks dealing with this particular >>>> question secondary to some software package and tools updates, and was >>>> striving to be civil about the current state of software packaging and >>>> related documentation on OpenVMS. >>>> >>>> That work has involved establishing what should be some simple product >>>> dependencies — akin to what app stacking or containers or other forms >>>> of packaging would routinely encounter — and the results have been >>>> stupidly complex. >>>> >>>> Knowing that there isn't any documentation and that there isn't any >>>> particular consistency here and that there aren't vendor >>>> recommendations — certainly not akin to the app bundles and containers >>>> that are available on some other platforms — is useful. >>>> >>>> Anybody got a copy of the DEC 1988-vintage software engineering >>>> handbook? That was the closest I've encountered outside of the >>>> modular procedures, and the handbook is both massively outdated and >>>> not directly on point here. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> Sadly, true .... >>> >>> It would not have taken much to have a short chapter of generic >>> suggestions for where to place things. At least enough to give users of >>> the OS some things to consider. Actually, a good subject for FAQ .... >> I've thought about this a bit more, and yes, FAQ is exactly where such questions >> should be answered. Now, VMS doesn't have, as far as I know, an "OFFICIAL" FAQ. >> Perhaps that should be addressed. However, the existing FAQ can be very >> helpful, and should be included in any "OFFICIAL" FAQ, should such become >> available in the future. >> >> Such an approach would both offer advice, and allow flexibility. > > Didn't there used to be a VMS FAQ? What happened to it and/or its > maintainer? The Wizard (Stephen Hoffman) maintained the FAQ while he was at DEC et al, and I do believe he has a copy on his web page Hoffman Labs. So, it's still available, but perhaps a bit dated, just like VMS. While helpful, some feel this should be provided by the OS vendor. Not sure it matters, as long as it's available. Don't know if Steve is taking and including new submissions for the FAQ.
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| From | Stephen Hoffman <seaohveh@hoffmanlabs.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-06-10 10:58 -0400 |
| Subject | Re: VMS FAQ (was Re: Where to locate software) |
| Message-ID | <njeki4$57d$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #58149 |
On 2016-06-10 02:01:47 +0000, David Froble said: > The Wizard (Stephen Hoffman) maintained the FAQ while he was at DEC et > al, and I do believe he has a copy on his web page Hoffman Labs. So, > it's still available, but perhaps a bit dated, just like VMS. The 2006-vintage OpenVMS FAQ: http://labs.hoffmanlabs.com/vmsfaq also known as http://labs.hoffmanlabs.com/node/1 I looked at updating the FAQ and even started porting the FAQ text to more modern tools — the FAQ is written in DEC/TTI Document SDML, and I'm not inclined to buy a license for that — and slowly realized that both the old text format and the segmented newsgroup distribution was a whole lot of work and for rather less results than are available with other approaches and tools. > While helpful, some feel this should be provided by the OS vendor. Not > sure it matters, as long as it's available. The recommendations around how software kits and open source packages are organized and configured best come from the vendor, as they're the ones that inherently establish the related standards. For any OS vendor, this (in decreasing order of preference) is either with explicit recommendations and associated tools and frameworks (e.g. app bundles, sandboxes, containers, etc), through folks mimicking conventions based on what the vendor themselves present and document, or by whatever code perambulations the particular vendor happens to throw over the wall for end-user folks and third-party folks to deal with that particular week. As for user opinions, there are already various recommendations posted both in this thread and around the 'net. Many are good, some IMO not so good, and none that I've encountered are even remotely forward-looking. Were I to tell you how to configure your package, I'm just another bozo on this bus. I can assure y'all that some of my opinions here would be unpopular with the crowd that is used to OpenVMS as it is. I've been considering offering a "Alternate Future OpenVMS" presentation for the boot camp, covering my opinions around this topic and other drag-VMS-forward topics. Whether that'd even be of interest to the session reviewers or attendees? No sé. Certainly not something I'd expect VSI to implement, either. It's far outside any presentation I've encountered at a previously boot camp or symposium, so there's that. But I digress. > Don't know if Steve is taking and including new submissions for the FAQ. Have you looked at the HL web site? ~1800 articles. With a way to start discussions. That's where I've been putting articles. Articles which can be longer than the quick-hit FAQ-style Q&A format and discussions. If I were over at VSI, I'd have a web content management system deployed for the content (and a whole lot less of the stock photos), and — for discussions — I'd be pushing for either a Stack site, or would be using the existing Stack Overflow and related sites and tags. Discussions locally require forum administration and some very gentle moderation, or the forums tend to become filled with spam or vitriole. No, I wouldn't use Notes and the Notes-News or other gateways. At least not until Notes gets dragged forward. But I digress. -- Pure Personal Opinion | HoffmanLabs LLC
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| From | Kerry Main <kerry.main@backtothefutureit.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-06-10 16:50 +0000 |
| Subject | Re: VMS FAQ (was Re: Where to locate software) |
| Message-ID | <mailman.130.1465577511.14339.info-vax_info-vax.com@info-vax.com> |
| In reply to | #58161 |
> -----Original Message----- > From: Info-vax [mailto:info-vax-bounces@info-vax.com] On Behalf Of > Stephen Hoffman via Info-vax > Sent: 10-Jun-16 10:58 AM > To: info-vax@info-vax.com > Cc: Stephen Hoffman <seaohveh@hoffmanlabs.invalid> > Subject: Re: [New Info-vax] VMS FAQ (was Re: Where to locate > software) > > On 2016-06-10 02:01:47 +0000, David Froble said: > > > The Wizard (Stephen Hoffman) maintained the FAQ while he was at > DEC et > > al, and I do believe he has a copy on his web page Hoffman Labs. So, > > it's still available, but perhaps a bit dated, just like VMS. > > The 2006-vintage OpenVMS FAQ: > > http://labs.hoffmanlabs.com/vmsfaq also known as > http://labs.hoffmanlabs.com/node/1 > > I looked at updating the FAQ and even started porting the FAQ text to > more modern tools — the FAQ is written in DEC/TTI Document SDML, > and > I'm not inclined to buy a license for that — and slowly realized that > both the old text format and the segmented newsgroup distribution was > a > whole lot of work and for rather less results than are available with > other approaches and tools. > > > While helpful, some feel this should be provided by the OS vendor. > Not > > sure it matters, as long as it's available. > > The recommendations around how software kits and open source > packages > are organized and configured best come from the vendor, as they're the > ones that inherently establish the related standards. For any OS > vendor, this (in decreasing order of preference) is either with > explicit recommendations and associated tools and frameworks (e.g. app > bundles, sandboxes, containers, etc), through folks mimicking > conventions based on what the vendor themselves present and > document, > or by whatever code perambulations the particular vendor happens to > throw over the wall for end-user folks and third-party folks to deal > with that particular week. As for user opinions, there are already > various recommendations posted both in this thread and around the > 'net. > Many are good, some IMO not so good, and none that I've encountered > are even remotely forward-looking. > > Were I to tell you how to configure your package, I'm just another bozo > on this bus. I can assure y'all that some of my opinions here would > be unpopular with the crowd that is used to OpenVMS as it is. > > I've been considering offering a "Alternate Future OpenVMS" > presentation for the boot camp, covering my opinions around this topic > and other drag-VMS-forward topics. Whether that'd even be of interest > to the session reviewers or attendees? No sé. Certainly not > something I'd expect VSI to implement, either. It's far outside any > presentation I've encountered at a previously boot camp or symposium, > so there's that. But I digress. > > > Don't know if Steve is taking and including new submissions for the > FAQ. > > Have you looked at the HL web site? ~1800 articles. With a way to > start discussions. That's where I've been putting articles. Articles > which can be longer than the quick-hit FAQ-style Q&A format and > discussions. > > If I were over at VSI, I'd have a web content management system > deployed for the content (and a whole lot less of the stock photos), > and — for discussions — I'd be pushing for either a Stack site, or > would be using the existing Stack Overflow and related sites and tags. > Discussions locally require forum administration and some very gentle > moderation, or the forums tend to become filled with spam or vitriole. > No, I wouldn't use Notes and the Notes-News or other gateways. At > least not until Notes gets dragged forward. But I digress. > Steve - excellent point on the content management system (CMS - not to be confused with the other CMS - code mgmt. system). It's likely the VSI / community should be looking at more modern ways to manage multiple different types of information regarding OpenVMS. The community needs a much more centralized environment where not Only experienced users can go, but also somewhere to direct new users for documentation, training info, video's, presentations, announcements and numerous other things typically in a content mgmt system. Imho, this new information system should be OpenVMS based - perhaps on a small cluster for higher availability. It likely should be hosted by VSI, but with external contributors /partners that can assist with the creation (shared authoring), and mgmt. of the information. As a suggestion - get Mark Daniel to assist with the following: http://wasd.vsm.com.au/vdub/ " Vdub CMS is a content management system for VMS-based Web sites. Vdub is a nickname for the VWcms (VMS Web-content management system) application. The generic term content management system (CMS) is used to refer to software applications used to organize information in various environments. In this case VWcms helps organise web sites on VMS systems. "There are many free and commercial packages providing the essentials of a Web site. These are constructed by professional graphic artists and designers and can provide a polished look and feel to a Web presence while saving a significant amount of effort for the site administrator. It is usually a relatively straight-forward exercise to adapt this sort of package to VWcms usage. VWcms has been developed against recent versions of Firefox, Google Chrome, Microsoft Internet Explorer, Safari and Opera. As is often the case, much more time was spent getting MSIE (mostly) to behave as required than on all the others put together!" :-) Regards, Kerry Main Kerry dot main at starkgaming dot com
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| From | koehler@eisner.nospam.decuserve.org (Bob Koehler) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-06-09 13:28 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <kAsQphD0wN77@eisner.encompasserve.org> |
| In reply to | #58133 |
In article <njc28c$n2$2@dont-email.me>, David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes: > > It would not have taken much to have a short chapter of generic suggestions for > where to place things. At least enough to give users of the OS some things to > consider. Actually, a good subject for FAQ .... Sugrestions might be nice, but not rules. I just might not have enough space for everything I need if I have to follow some rule.
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| From | David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-06-09 22:06 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <njd7bg$rbi$2@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #58139 |
Bob Koehler wrote: > In article <njc28c$n2$2@dont-email.me>, David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes: >> It would not have taken much to have a short chapter of generic suggestions for >> where to place things. At least enough to give users of the OS some things to >> consider. Actually, a good subject for FAQ .... > > Sugrestions might be nice, but not rules. I just might not have > enough space for everything I need if I have to follow some rule. > Bob, I do believe that was what I was saying. I do like the flexibility. Perhaps not everyone was using VMS back as far as 1978, and therefore might benefit from what the long time users of the Os have learned, developed, and refined. Dave - not a good rule follower ....
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| From | VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-06-09 13:58 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <00B0A5BD.DF6B3070@SendSpamHere.ORG> |
| In reply to | #58125 |
In article <njbo8i$rm8$1@dont-email.me>, Stephen Hoffman <seaohveh@hoffmanlabs.invalid> writes: >On 2016-06-08 23:18:47 +0000, Paul Richards said: > >> I'm running OpenVMS 8.4 on FreeAXP and am a comparative newbie. So, a >> noob question: I am planning to install some of the HP Open-source >> software and Freeware. >> >> For those applications which don't automatically install where should I >> locate them such that I can run them from any directory? > >Welcome! > >I'm one of the resident curmudgeons, and deal with more than few >packages and tools, and have worked with more than a few open source >packages on OpenVMS. And I use a mix of operating systems beyond >OpenVMS and Windows. > >This is an excellent question! That's something most folks arriving >from competently-designed systems might wonder, too. ??? That leaves El Crapitan out in the cold. ;) >Alas... > >That you even have to ask this question points to a hole in the >available documentation and resources. It's a hole in user's ability to RTFM. >Worse, OpenVMS itself has no idea how to do this and provides >absolutely no guidance, and neither HPE nor VSI has stated any plans >around draining this particular swamp. VSI has come the closest here, >with some very general discussions about maybe adding some support for >containers in some future release. > >In short... Have at. It's a free-for-all. Just like Lunix/Unix? -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG I speak to machines with the voice of humanity.
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| From | Stephen Hoffman <seaohveh@hoffmanlabs.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-06-09 11:16 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <njc18p$ta8$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #58127 |
On 2016-06-09 13:58:01 +0000, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG said: > > That leaves El Crapitan out in the cold. ;) > ... > It's a hole in user's ability to RTFM. > ... > Just like Lunix/Unix? Barring IP limitations, I'll happily swipe good ideas from El Capitan, Unix, BSD, Linux, Windows or otherwise. If Unix and Linux aren't particularly good at something, maybe that can be fodder for product development and marketing? The OpenVMS manuals don't particularly cover this topic, and the OpenVMS tools and isolation and security mechanisms don't particularly support packaging or isolation or related. -- Pure Personal Opinion | HoffmanLabs LLC
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| From | Kerry Main <kerry.main@backtothefutureit.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-06-09 14:46 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <mailman.294.1465483636.14919.info-vax_info-vax.com@info-vax.com> |
| In reply to | #58125 |
> -----Original Message----- > From: Info-vax [mailto:info-vax-bounces@info-vax.com] On Behalf Of > Stephen Hoffman via Info-vax > Sent: 09-Jun-16 8:43 AM > To: info-vax@info-vax.com > Cc: Stephen Hoffman <seaohveh@hoffmanlabs.invalid> > Subject: Re: [New Info-vax] Where to locate software > > On 2016-06-08 23:18:47 +0000, Paul Richards said: > > > I'm running OpenVMS 8.4 on FreeAXP and am a comparative newbie. > So, a > > noob question: I am planning to install some of the HP Open-source > > software and Freeware. > > > > For those applications which don't automatically install where should I > > locate them such that I can run them from any directory? > > Welcome! > > I'm one of the resident curmudgeons, and deal with more than few > packages and tools, and have worked with more than a few open source > packages on OpenVMS. And I use a mix of operating systems beyond > OpenVMS and Windows. > > This is an excellent question! That's something most folks arriving > from competently-designed systems might wonder, too. > > Alas... > > That you even have to ask this question points to a hole in the > available documentation and resources. > > Worse, OpenVMS itself has no idea how to do this and provides > absolutely no guidance, and neither HPE nor VSI has stated any plans > around draining this particular swamp. VSI has come the closest here, > with some very general discussions about maybe adding some support > for > containers in some future release. > > In short... Have at. It's a free-for-all. > As long as one wants to ignore available documentation and/or best practices and/or constructive advice from those familiar with the system platform, then you are correct. Course, this applies to any platform one is just becoming acquainted with. Performance, capacity planning, disk space availability, security, available hardware, changing technologies (e.g. flash SSD's), HA requirements, App specific restrictions and pre-existing practices are all areas that need to be considered when looking at where to locate new workloads on a system platform. In a VM, its less of an issue as there are only a few options. Hence, there is no one right solution to install applications on any OS platform. The best app's are those that recognize this and provide the SysAdmin with the flexibility to make their own decisions that are best for their local environment. Course, this applies to all OS platforms as well. Can this be improved on OpenVMS? Absolutely, especially with changing technologies making decisions made In the past a bit of a non-issue. As an example - cheap 500GB SSD's make the old argument of worrying about system disk space less of an issue. However, for those who have managed large Windows or Linux environments, the same is true. > Stick it everywhere, stick it anywhere, however you want, in the system > directories or in private directories, it's completely and utterly up > to the administrator and to the folks that created the installation > kits — even the kits and kitting software lacks any a particular > recommended organization for the installed software — which means > that > you'll have a zillion opinions and absolutely no consistency, even with > the vendor products. Upgrades can be well handled and clear, or they > can be a complete train-wreck. There's no standard way to remove > more > than a little of the installed software, no auditing of what's > installed, and removing installed software — PCSI does better than most > here — is completely manually implemented by whoever created the kit > or > the install. If they even provide a way to remove the software. > There's a little modular programming documentation that recommends > using prefixes on file names and logical names and such — and facility > prefixes registered with HPE and VSI, but I'm not sure there's any way > to even get those registered these days — but OpenVMS itself > *routinely* violates that recommendation, as do more than a few of the > open source and commercial packages. > > TL;DR: Vendor app design recommendations? Doesn't exist. Application > bundles or packages? Doesn't exist. App stacking or containers or > such? Doesn't exist. Sandboxes or jails or BSD pledge() or other > forms of application security and isolation? Doesn't exist. > Recommendations for embedded libraries or frameworks? Doesn't > exist. > Re: App stacking doesn’t exist on OpenVMS? Better not tell all those OpenVMS Customers out there who have been running multiple applications on the same OS and/or same cluster for decades. I am sure they will be shocked to find this out. For those with OpenVMS clusters, common system disks (dual for rolling Upgrades) greatly simplify the App stacking process by providing common Boot, startup and config files. Ask a Windows person how they do this on a Windows cluster .. hint - they don't. :-) > Integrating open source packages? Always fun. They all work > differently. Alas. The (many) other replies here in the > comp.os.vms newsgroup will have some examples of the various user > recommendations. > Like all of the other OS platforms, the install process for OpenVMS could definitely use improvement - no one would likely say this is not the case. Again - changing technologies are going to change the way that future Install decisions are made. As an example - given system disk space is not the same concern as it used to be, perhaps a VMS install should come as an image (LD container?) with most of the core Apps already installed and the "install" process is simply a "Prod Remove" process i.e. just remove those you do not need, then update the license file and startup /config files .. Another LD container could come with most of the common 3rd party packages pre-installed. Same process. Regards, Kerry Main Kerry dot main at starkgaming dot com
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| From | Stephen Hoffman <seaohveh@hoffmanlabs.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-06-09 12:43 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <njc6bv$ggq$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #58129 |
On 2016-06-09 14:46:25 +0000, Kerry Main said: >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> From: Info-vax [mailto:info-vax-bounces@info-vax.com] On Behalf Of >> >> Stephen Hoffman via Info-vax >> >> Sent: 09-Jun-16 8:43 AM >> >> To: info-vax@info-vax.com >> >> Cc: Stephen Hoffman <seaohveh@hoffmanlabs.invalid> >> >> Subject: Re: [New Info-vax] Where to locate software >> >> >> >> On 2016-06-08 23:18:47 +0000, Paul Richards said: >> >> >> >>> I'm running OpenVMS 8.4 on FreeAXP and am a comparative newbie. >>> >>> So, a noob question: I am planning to install some of the HP >>> Open-source software and Freeware. >>> >>> >>> >>> For those applications which don't automatically install where should I >>> >>> locate them such that I can run them from any directory? >>> >> >> >> Welcome! >> >> >> >> I'm one of the resident curmudgeons, and deal with more than few >> packages and tools, and have worked with more than a few open source >> packages on OpenVMS. And I use a mix of operating systems beyond >> OpenVMS and Windows. >> >> >> >> This is an excellent question! That's something most folks arriving >> from competently-designed systems might wonder, too. >> >> >> >> Alas... >> >> >> >> That you even have to ask this question points to a hole in the >> available documentation and resources. >> >> >> >> Worse, OpenVMS itself has no idea how to do this and provides >> absolutely no guidance, and neither HPE nor VSI has stated any plans >> around draining this particular swamp. VSI has come the closest here, >> with some very general discussions about maybe adding some support for >> containers in some future release. >> >> >> >> In short... Have at. It's a free-for-all. >> >> >> > > > As long as one wants to ignore available documentation and/or best > practices and/or constructive advice from those familiar with the > system platform, then you are correct. Pointers? Recommendations around software installations and packaging? This is not something that is documented with OpenVMS, beyond what's in the PCSI manual, the VMSINSTAL manual and the modular programming docs. > Course, this applies to any platform one is just becoming acquainted with. > > > > Performance, capacity planning, disk space availability, security, > available hardware, changing technologies (e.g. flash SSD's), HA > requirements, App specific restrictions and pre-existing practices are > all areas that need to be considered when looking at where to locate > new workloads on a system platform. In a VM, its less of an issue as > there are only a few options. Keeping different packages and their dependencies from getting tangled is a pretty basic requirement, as is efficient deployment. OpenVMS has insufficient mechanisms for either of those tasks. > Hence, there is no one right solution to install applications on any OS > platform. The best app's are those that recognize this and provide the > SysAdmin with the flexibility to make their own decisions that are > best for their local environment. > > > > Course, this applies to all OS platforms as well. > > > > Can this be improved on OpenVMS? > > > > Absolutely, especially with changing technologies making decisions made > In the past a bit of a non-issue. > > > As an example - cheap 500GB SSD's make the old argument of worrying > about system disk space less of an issue. > > > However, for those who have managed large Windows or Linux > environments, the same is true. I really don't care to discuss Windows or Windows Server or Linux limits in general. Well, not outside of cases where I was marketing OpenVMS or some other product against those. And OpenVMS isn't and won't be marketing against Windows and Windows Server for many years. If ever. OpenVMS can and will be marketed against Linux servers certainly, but that's going to remain a tough sale for many years. More often than not, folks are migrating from OpenVMS to Windows Server or Linux or other platforms, as we've all experienced, too. Conversely, tell me about what's good about Windows or Windows Server or Linux and whether those advantages can work or can be reasonably be implemented in OpenVMS or applications, or can move OpenVMS sales forward, and then I'm interested. That's part of why I learn and use other platforms and other tools; that can make my OpenVMS code and my OpenVMS support better, too. >> Stick it everywhere, stick it anywhere, however you want, in the system >> directories or in private directories, it's completely and utterly up >> to the administrator and to the folks that created the installation >> kits — even the kits and kitting software lacks any a particular >> recommended organization for the installed software — which means that >> you'll have a zillion opinions and absolutely no consistency, even with >> the vendor products. Upgrades can be well handled and clear, or they >> can be a complete train-wreck. There's no standard way to remove more >> than a little of the installed software, no auditing of what's >> installed, and removing installed software — PCSI does better than most >> here — is completely manually implemented by whoever created the kit or >> the install. If they even provide a way to remove the software. >> There's a little modular programming documentation that recommends >> using prefixes on file names and logical names and such — and facility >> prefixes registered with HPE and VSI, but I'm not sure there's any way >> to even get those registered these days — but OpenVMS itself >> *routinely* violates that recommendation, as do more than a few of the >> open source and commercial packages. >> >> >> >> TL;DR: Vendor app design recommendations? Doesn't exist. Application >> bundles or packages? Doesn't exist. App stacking or containers or >> such? Doesn't exist. Sandboxes or jails or BSD pledge() or other >> forms of application security and isolation? Doesn't exist. >> Recommendations for embedded libraries or frameworks? Doesn't exist. >> > > > Re: App stacking doesn’t exist on OpenVMS? App stacking does not exist on OpenVMS. You and other folks should be grumbling about this, too. > Better not tell all those OpenVMS Customers out there who have been > > running multiple applications on the same OS and/or same cluster for > > decades. I am sure they will be shocked to find this out. Tried to convince some folks that what you're referring to here is app stacking? What you're referencing is bespoke management of the server. That's managing pets and not managing livestock. Sure, that works. But it's a manual configuration process and something that only gets automated with locally-written tools. (There's nothing even remotely like Homebrew on OpenVMS, nor anything akin to the various package managers on Linux, for instance. http://brew.sh As currently implemented on OpenVMS, that manually-configured and locally-replicated approach also tends to collide (badly) with dependencies in the base OS. How many of us have been working through the SSL to SSL1 migration, for instance? But you know this. > For those with OpenVMS clusters, common system disks (dual for rolling > Upgrades) greatly simplify the App stacking process by providing common > Boot, startup and config files. Ask a Windows person how they do this > on a Windows cluster .. hint - they don't. OpenVMS clustering is a mess, at least from the perspective of the initial configuration, the deployment of ACME, or — on topic here — shared software installations. Manually maintained startup and shutdown files are not a viable strategy for herd-maintained servers, either. But again, you know this. I really don't care about Windows limits, outside of cases where I was marketing against those. And OpenVMS isn't and won't be marketing against Windows Server for many years. If ever. Again, tell me about what's good about Windows or Windows Server or Linux or whatever other platform and the respective applications or associated tools — and whether any of that can be reasonably be migrated to or can be implemented in OpenVMS or in applications — and then I'm interested. > :-) > > > >> Integrating open source packages? Always fun. They all work >> differently. Alas. The (many) other replies here in the >> comp.os.vms newsgroup will have some examples of the various user >> recommendations. >> > > > Like all of the other OS platforms, the install process for OpenVMS > could definitely use improvement - no one would likely say this is not > the case. Other than OpenVMS being years behind what's becoming typical and available, sure. > Again - changing technologies are going to change the way that future > Install decisions are made. As an example - given system disk space is > not the same concern as it used to be, perhaps a VMS install should > come as an image (LD container?) with most of the core Apps already > installed and the "install" process is simply a "Prod Remove" process > i.e. just remove those you do not need, then update the license file > and startup /config files .. > > > > Another LD container could come with most of the common 3rd party > packages pre-installed. Same process. Using LD is likely more a reflection on problems and limitations with PCSI than an example that I'd cite around app stacking. PCSI needs better handling of duplicate file names, integration with source control systems, better tools for kit creation and updates, the ability to audit installed software, the ability to reinstall OpenVMS over itself — which also ties back to how poorly OpenVMS isolates settings from system files — and various other areas. On the plus side, support for multiple versions sort-of falls out of LD. But support for isolation doesn't — the dependencies are separate and not integrated with the apps. (App bundles aren't a panacea, either. But they're better than stuff scattered all over the system disk. BTW: "Best practices" is increasingly used as industry jargon for "I did some web searches and outsourced even thinking about this issue" or more succinctly as "it's not my fault" when something craters. -- Pure Personal Opinion | HoffmanLabs LLC
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| From | lawrencedo99@gmail.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-06-09 13:50 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <f2ac7e7f-b8de-40d1-b63e-7e4ca563f953@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #58136 |
On Friday, June 10, 2016 at 4:43:50 AM UTC+12, Stephen Hoffman wrote:
> Conversely, tell me about what's good about Windows or Windows Server
> or Linux and whether those advantages can work or can be reasonably be
> implemented in OpenVMS or applications, or can move OpenVMS sales
> forward, and then I'm interested.
Package management would be an obvious thing:
ldo@theon:~> echo I have $(dpkg-query -l | grep -c ^i) packages installed.
I have 4571 packages installed.
The package system keeps track of where everything goes, and what their dependencies are. And it only takes a one-line command to keep everything up-to-date.
There are some things I build from source myself, because packages aren’t available in Debian or are too old. By default these install themselves in /usr/local, quite separate from the standard packages.
So you see, there are long-established conventions to keep things from running into each other. At least for open-source software...
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| From | David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-06-09 22:20 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <njd864$u9h$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #58136 |
Stephen Hoffman wrote: > On 2016-06-09 14:46:25 +0000, Kerry Main said: > >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> >>> From: Info-vax [mailto:info-vax-bounces@info-vax.com] On Behalf Of >>> >>> Stephen Hoffman via Info-vax >>> >>> Sent: 09-Jun-16 8:43 AM >>> >>> To: info-vax@info-vax.com >>> >>> Cc: Stephen Hoffman <seaohveh@hoffmanlabs.invalid> >>> >>> Subject: Re: [New Info-vax] Where to locate software >>> >>> >>> >>> On 2016-06-08 23:18:47 +0000, Paul Richards said: >>> >>> >>> >>>> I'm running OpenVMS 8.4 on FreeAXP and am a comparative newbie. >>>> >>>> So, a noob question: I am planning to install some of the HP >>>> Open-source software and Freeware. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> For those applications which don't automatically install where should I >>>> >>>> locate them such that I can run them from any directory? >>>> >>> >>> >>> Welcome! >>> >>> >>> >>> I'm one of the resident curmudgeons, and deal with more than few >>> packages and tools, and have worked with more than a few open source >>> packages on OpenVMS. And I use a mix of operating systems beyond >>> OpenVMS and Windows. >>> >>> >>> >>> This is an excellent question! That's something most folks arriving >>> from competently-designed systems might wonder, too. >>> >>> >>> >>> Alas... >>> >>> >>> >>> That you even have to ask this question points to a hole in the >>> available documentation and resources. >>> >>> >>> >>> Worse, OpenVMS itself has no idea how to do this and provides >>> absolutely no guidance, and neither HPE nor VSI has stated any plans >>> around draining this particular swamp. VSI has come the closest >>> here, with some very general discussions about maybe adding some >>> support for containers in some future release. >>> >>> >>> >>> In short... Have at. It's a free-for-all. >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> As long as one wants to ignore available documentation and/or best >> practices and/or constructive advice from those familiar with the >> system platform, then you are correct. > > Pointers? Recommendations around software installations and > packaging? This is not something that is documented with OpenVMS, > beyond what's in the PCSI manual, the VMSINSTAL manual and the modular > programming docs. Ah, but Consolidated Data does provide such with the Codis application. After all, we know what the application requires. I really don't see how VMS could ever know that. To be precise, we have directions, and also do much of the set-up for a new customer ourselves. We need things to be set up in a particular manner, so that our automated updates will work correctly. >> Course, this applies to any platform one is just becoming acquainted >> with. >> >> >> >> Performance, capacity planning, disk space availability, security, >> available hardware, changing technologies (e.g. flash SSD's), HA >> requirements, App specific restrictions and pre-existing practices are >> all areas that need to be considered when looking at where to locate >> new workloads on a system platform. In a VM, its less of an issue as >> there are only a few options. > > Keeping different packages and their dependencies from getting tangled > is a pretty basic requirement, as is efficient deployment. OpenVMS has > insufficient mechanisms for either of those tasks. I got to ask, how could VMS know the particular requirements of third party applications? Not that I'm claiming that every third party vendor has done an outstanding job in this area. But some have, and do. >> Hence, there is no one right solution to install applications on any >> OS platform. The best app's are those that recognize this and provide >> the SysAdmin with the flexibility to make their own decisions that >> are best for their local environment. >> >> >> >> Course, this applies to all OS platforms as well. >> >> >> Can this be improved on OpenVMS? >> >> >> >> Absolutely, especially with changing technologies making decisions >> made In the past a bit of a non-issue. >> >> >> As an example - cheap 500GB SSD's make the old argument of worrying >> about system disk space less of an issue. >> >> >> However, for those who have managed large Windows or Linux >> environments, the same is true. > > I really don't care to discuss Windows or Windows Server or Linux limits > in general. Well, not outside of cases where I was marketing OpenVMS or > some other product against those. And OpenVMS isn't and won't be > marketing against Windows and Windows Server for many years. If > ever. OpenVMS can and will be marketed against Linux servers > certainly, but that's going to remain a tough sale for many years. More > often than not, folks are migrating from OpenVMS to Windows Server or > Linux or other platforms, as we've all experienced, too. Conversely, > tell me about what's good about Windows or Windows Server or Linux and > whether those advantages can work or can be reasonably be implemented in > OpenVMS or applications, or can move OpenVMS sales forward, and then I'm > interested. That's part of why I learn and use other platforms and > other tools; that can make my OpenVMS code and my OpenVMS support > better, too. > >>> Stick it everywhere, stick it anywhere, however you want, in the >>> system directories or in private directories, it's completely and >>> utterly up to the administrator and to the folks that created the >>> installation kits — even the kits and kitting software lacks any a >>> particular recommended organization for the installed software — >>> which means that you'll have a zillion opinions and absolutely no >>> consistency, even with the vendor products. Upgrades can be well >>> handled and clear, or they can be a complete train-wreck. There's >>> no standard way to remove more than a little of the installed >>> software, no auditing of what's installed, and removing installed >>> software — PCSI does better than most here — is completely manually >>> implemented by whoever created the kit or the install. If they even >>> provide a way to remove the software. There's a little modular >>> programming documentation that recommends using prefixes on file >>> names and logical names and such — and facility prefixes registered >>> with HPE and VSI, but I'm not sure there's any way to even get those >>> registered these days — but OpenVMS itself *routinely* violates that >>> recommendation, as do more than a few of the open source and >>> commercial packages. >>> >>> >>> >>> TL;DR: Vendor app design recommendations? Doesn't exist. >>> Application bundles or packages? Doesn't exist. App stacking or >>> containers or such? Doesn't exist. Sandboxes or jails or BSD >>> pledge() or other forms of application security and isolation? >>> Doesn't exist. Recommendations for embedded libraries or frameworks? >>> Doesn't exist. >>> >> >> >> Re: App stacking doesn’t exist on OpenVMS? > > App stacking does not exist on OpenVMS. You and other folks should be > grumbling about this, too. I have run multiple applications on a single VMS system. I've even seen multiple companies using the same VMS system. It can be done, if the people doing it have half a clue. >> Better not tell all those OpenVMS Customers out there who have been >> running multiple applications on the same OS and/or same cluster for >> decades. I am sure they will be shocked to find this out. > > Tried to convince some folks that what you're referring to here is app > stacking? What you're referencing is bespoke management of the server. Ok, you win that one .... :-) But if the user accounts are not set up properly, then I'm guessing nothing else can help. At some point some knowledge and intelligent management is required, right? > That's managing pets and not managing livestock. Sure, that works. > But it's a manual configuration process and something that only gets > automated with locally-written tools. (There's nothing even remotely > like Homebrew on OpenVMS, nor anything akin to the various package > managers on Linux, for instance. > > http://brew.sh > > As currently implemented on OpenVMS, that manually-configured and > locally-replicated approach also tends to collide (badly) with > dependencies in the base OS. > > How many of us have been working through the SSL to SSL1 migration, for > instance? > > But you know this. > >> For those with OpenVMS clusters, common system disks (dual for rolling >> Upgrades) greatly simplify the App stacking process by providing >> common Boot, startup and config files. Ask a Windows person how they >> do this on a Windows cluster .. hint - they don't. > > OpenVMS clustering is a mess, at least from the perspective of the > initial configuration, the deployment of ACME, or — on topic here — > shared software installations. > > Manually maintained startup and shutdown files are not a viable strategy > for herd-maintained servers, either. > > But again, you know this. > > I really don't care about Windows limits, outside of cases where I was > marketing against those. And OpenVMS isn't and won't be marketing > against Windows Server for many years. If ever. Again, tell me about > what's good about Windows or Windows Server or Linux or whatever other > platform and the respective applications or associated tools — and > whether any of that can be reasonably be migrated to or can be > implemented in OpenVMS or in applications — and then I'm interested. While pretty much dead with HP, perhaps with VSI there might be some who return to VMS, because the "new" system never really was acceptable? >> :-) >> >> >> >>> Integrating open source packages? Always fun. They all work >>> differently. Alas. The (many) other replies here in the >>> comp.os.vms newsgroup will have some examples of the various user >>> recommendations. >>> >> >> >> Like all of the other OS platforms, the install process for OpenVMS >> could definitely use improvement - no one would likely say this is not >> the case. > > Other than OpenVMS being years behind what's becoming typical and > available, sure. > >> Again - changing technologies are going to change the way that future >> Install decisions are made. As an example - given system disk space is >> not the same concern as it used to be, perhaps a VMS install should >> come as an image (LD container?) with most of the core Apps already >> installed and the "install" process is simply a "Prod Remove" process >> i.e. just remove those you do not need, then update the license file >> and startup /config files .. >> >> >> >> Another LD container could come with most of the common 3rd party >> packages pre-installed. Same process. > > Using LD is likely more a reflection on problems and limitations with > PCSI than an example that I'd cite around app stacking. PCSI needs > better handling of duplicate file names, integration with source control > systems, better tools for kit creation and updates, the ability to audit > installed software, the ability to reinstall OpenVMS over itself — which > also ties back to how poorly OpenVMS isolates settings from system files > — and various other areas. On the plus side, support for multiple > versions sort-of falls out of LD. But support for isolation doesn't — > the dependencies are separate and not integrated with the apps. (App > bundles aren't a panacea, either. But they're better than stuff > scattered all over the system disk. > > BTW: "Best practices" is increasingly used as industry jargon for "I did > some web searches and outsourced even thinking about this issue" or more > succinctly as "it's not my fault" when something craters. > > > > >
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| From | Stephen Hoffman <seaohveh@hoffmanlabs.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-06-10 11:11 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <njelam$8ac$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #58151 |
On 2016-06-10 02:20:51 +0000, David Froble said: > I have run multiple applications on a single VMS system. I've even > seen multiple companies using the same VMS system. It can be done, if > the people doing it have half a clue. That this is feasible is without question feasible. It's getting two (or more) arbitrary software packages with arbitrary dependencies to arbitrarily and repeatedly and reliably install and upgrade and to cleanly deinstall where this — as OpenVMS is presently implemented — gets interesting. It's certainly manually possible, but that tends to delve far too deeply into the RTFM territory. And we all know that automation beats RTFM. Further down the road from how OpenVMS operates, this is also distributed updates via (for instance) RSS and HTTPS and signed apps, and how vulnerable or even malicious apps are isolated from each other with an effort toward avoiding wider breaches. *This* is why I rant about PCSI and patch distribution and app isolation and certificate distributions and secure password storage and package management and better tools. Because if you're doing one server, then manual processes and skilled dev-ops folks can and does usually does work fine. If you're doing five servers or if you're working with products whose developers have chosen to implement RTFM and (for whatever reason) not expend the effort on "it just works" in their packages, this gets tedious. If you're doing fifty or five hundred servers or if you need rapid updates due to security vulnerabilities or other serious issues, you're in deep sneakers. And most everything here is only going to need to happen faster. *This* is app stacking and containers and sandboxes. -- Pure Personal Opinion | HoffmanLabs LLC
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| From | David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-06-10 11:56 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <njenvk$gqi$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #58163 |
Stephen Hoffman wrote: > If you're > doing fifty or five hundred servers or if you need rapid updates due to > security vulnerabilities or other serious issues, you're in deep > sneakers. And most everything here is only going to need to happen > faster. > > *This* is app stacking and containers and sandboxes. > This is not the world I live in, and so I must admit that any views I have just aren't applicable.
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| From | johnwallace4@yahoo.co.uk |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-06-10 10:19 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <5e604387-b716-4aad-9823-b98a4961c1ff@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #58166 |
On Friday, 10 June 2016 16:56:38 UTC+1, David Froble wrote: > Stephen Hoffman wrote: > > > If you're > > doing fifty or five hundred servers or if you need rapid updates due to > > security vulnerabilities or other serious issues, you're in deep > > sneakers. And most everything here is only going to need to happen > > faster. > > > > *This* is app stacking and containers and sandboxes. > > > > This is not the world I live in, and so I must admit that any views I have just > aren't applicable. Don't worry too much. The fact that "devops" was mentioned in a non-ironic way means that it's not the world many sensible people live in. The UK IT rag The Register has taken quite a bit of flack in recent months for its apparent devops obsession. The flack isn't all from dinosaurs like me (and like you?); some of it is from people who have been told that devops is the company way forward, and who then find that reality doesn't match the marketing, devops alone doesn't fix everything and make the tea, and worse still, cluelessly broken system designs are still cluelessly broken system designs (which can be continuously integrated and tested and deployed using shiny tools which don't fix the cluelessly broken design). As you said in another thread a few minutes ago, developers aren't necessarily the best deciders of what technology to purchase. A decade or two ago, developers were very very important in some quarters; e.g. when Ballmer was influential at MS (CEO?), he used to rant on about "developers developers developers" (amongst other things): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I14b-C67EXY (Ballmer in 2008; plenty more where that came from). That "look after the developers, and the rest will follow" attitude helped MS get where they got. But times change, and needs vary. In particular, fashions (and CEOs) come and go. MS's repeated changes of software strategy haven't won them many friends. To Ballmer, Linux was a cancer. To Ballmer's replacement (Nadella), Linux is a place where people can run MS SQL Server and such like. Not everyone's needs can be satisified by a single high volume low margin (but shiny, and popular with developers) OS platform with lots of shiny widgets available. Obviously lots of people are OK with the high volume low margin model, especially if it allows more than one option, or it wouldn't be a high volume OS. That's fine, use the tool where it fits the requirements - but developers are not the only people with requirements. Meanwhile, good engineering is still good engineering. Building on sand is still, in cases where it matters, a bad idea.
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| From | Simon Clubley <clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-06-10 18:03 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <njevd4$dev$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #58166 |
On 2016-06-10, David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote: > Stephen Hoffman wrote: > >> If you're >> doing fifty or five hundred servers or if you need rapid updates due to >> security vulnerabilities or other serious issues, you're in deep >> sneakers. And most everything here is only going to need to happen >> faster. >> >> *This* is app stacking and containers and sandboxes. >> > > This is not the world I live in, and so I must admit that any views I have just > aren't applicable. Actually David, while I do think you do need to expose yourself more to new ideas and see if they can bring benefits to you, I also think your views _are_ applicable. Stephen likes to talk about the large internet focused companies with a requirement for massive amounts of automation and web based stuff and that is certainly a valid requirement. However, by number, those companies are not the majority of the companies in existence and all the different types of companies have different requirements. What you bring to the table is detailed real-world knowledge of actual computing business requirements in a different type of company. Simon. -- Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP Microsoft: Bringing you 1980s technology to a 21st century world
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| From | Stephen Hoffman <seaohveh@hoffmanlabs.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-06-10 15:59 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <njf679$64n$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #58172 |
On 2016-06-10 18:03:16 +0000, Simon Clubley said: > Stephen likes to talk about the large internet focused companies with a > requirement for massive amounts of automation and web based stuff... If by "large", you mean more than a half-dozen or so servers involved, sure. OpenVMS servers are installed one at a time. Managed one at a time. Upgraded one at a time. Apps are stacked one at a time. Startups and shutdowns are edited one at a time. That doesn't scale at all well. > What you bring to the table is detailed real-world knowledge of actual > computing business requirements in a different type of company. Where familiarity and comfort falls flat is where somebody else brings in different tools or different approaches or a different platform, and changes the landscape and the competition. Whether that's the ability to charge less, or to have better user interfaces or features, or whether the platform is much less expensive to install or deploy or upgrade, or where the folks can respond more quickly to requests or updates or changes, etc. -- Pure Personal Opinion | HoffmanLabs LLC
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| From | koehler@eisner.nospam.decuserve.org (Bob Koehler) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-06-13 09:02 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <jwFrvjmjk4nv@eisner.encompasserve.org> |
| In reply to | #58180 |
In article <njf679$64n$1@dont-email.me>, Stephen Hoffman <seaohveh@hoffmanlabs.invalid> writes: > > If by "large", you mean more than a half-dozen or so servers involved, > sure. OpenVMS servers are installed one at a time. [...] > Managed one at a time. [...] > Startups and shutdowns are edited one at a time. Not in the clusters I managed.
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| From | Paul Sture <nospam@sture.ch> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-06-13 16:34 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <pss23d-lmc2.ln1@news.chingola.ch> |
| In reply to | #58297 |
On 2016-06-13, Bob Koehler <koehler@eisner.nospam.decuserve.org> wrote: > In article <njf679$64n$1@dont-email.me>, Stephen Hoffman <seaohveh@hoffmanlabs.invalid> writes: >> >> If by "large", you mean more than a half-dozen or so servers involved, >> sure. OpenVMS servers are installed one at a time. > > [...] >> Managed one at a time. > [...] >> Startups and shutdowns are edited one at a time. > > Not in the clusters I managed. FWIW I was writing startup and shutdown procedures in a customer-independent way back in the 80s, before clustering was generally available. The RM05 exchangeable disk mount routines, for example, didn't care in which physical drive a pack was mounted - MOUNT/NOASSIST/NOWRITE/OVERRIDE=ID was used to find out which pack was where, and then mount it with the appropriate flavour of MOUNT/SYSTEM. The rest of the startup and software configuration were driven by the system name. Entering that and doing an Autogen were pretty much the only manual actions required on setting up a new customer or performing a software upgrade for an existing customer. OK, these were all part of the same group of customers, running nearly identical applications software, but it was feasible 30 years ago. It does take planning of course. Did I mention naming conventions yet? :-) -- There are two hard things in computer science, and they are cache invalidation, naming, and off-by-one errors.
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