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Cursor while booting

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  Cursor while booting Helge <w4hw4h.hh@gmail.com> - 2016-03-12 02:54 -0800
    Re: Cursor while booting Andreas Kohlbach <march.10.ankman@spamgourmet.net> - 2016-03-12 15:08 -0500
    Re: Cursor while booting w4hw4h.hh@gmail.com - 2016-03-13 00:26 -0800
      Re: Cursor while booting William Unruh <unruh@invalid.ca> - 2016-03-13 16:26 +0000
      Re: Cursor while booting Andreas Kohlbach <march.10.ankman@spamgourmet.net> - 2016-03-13 17:05 -0400
        Re: Cursor while booting w4hw4h.hh@gmail.com - 2016-03-15 02:48 -0700
          Re: Cursor while booting Robert Heller <heller@deepsoft.com> - 2016-03-15 06:25 -0500
            Re: Cursor while booting gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2016-03-15 13:32 +0000
              Re: Cursor while booting Reinhardt Behm <rbehm@hushmail.com> - 2016-03-15 22:12 +0800
              Re: Cursor while booting Robert Heller <heller@deepsoft.com> - 2016-03-15 10:48 -0500
                Re: Cursor while booting gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2016-03-16 09:20 +0000
                Re: Cursor while booting Pascal Hambourg <boite-a-spam@plouf.fr.eu.org> - 2016-03-16 20:15 +0100
                  Re: Cursor while booting Keith Keller <kkeller-usenet@wombat.san-francisco.ca.us> - 2016-03-16 16:09 -0700
                    Hot-swap-ability of PS/2 devices (Was: Cursor while booting) gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2016-03-17 00:31 +0000
                      Re: Hot-swap-ability of PS/2 devices (Was: Cursor while booting) Robert Riches <spamtrap42@jacob21819.net> - 2016-03-17 01:10 +0000
                        Re: Hot-swap-ability of PS/2 devices (Was: Cursor while booting) William Unruh <unruh@invalid.ca> - 2016-03-17 05:11 +0000
                      Re: Hot-swap-ability of PS/2 devices (Was: Cursor while booting) Robert Heller <heller@deepsoft.com> - 2016-03-16 20:54 -0500
                        Re: Hot-swap-ability of PS/2 devices (Was: Cursor while booting) William Unruh <unruh@invalid.ca> - 2016-03-17 05:13 +0000
                      Re: Hot-swap-ability of PS/2 devices (Was: Cursor while booting) Keith Keller <kkeller-usenet@wombat.san-francisco.ca.us> - 2016-03-17 09:37 -0700
                        Re: Hot-swap-ability of PS/2 devices (Was: Cursor while booting) William Unruh <unruh@invalid.ca> - 2016-03-17 16:42 +0000
                          Re: Hot-swap-ability of PS/2 devices (Was: Cursor while booting) Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> - 2016-03-17 10:02 -0700
                            Re: Hot-swap-ability of PS/2 devices (Was: Cursor while booting) "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@invalid.es> - 2016-03-17 20:11 +0100
                              Re: Hot-swap-ability of PS/2 devices (Was: Cursor while booting) William Unruh <unruh@invalid.ca> - 2016-03-18 01:55 +0000
                                Re: Hot-swap-ability of PS/2 devices (Was: Cursor while booting) Robert Riches <spamtrap42@jacob21819.net> - 2016-03-18 03:21 +0000
                              Re: Hot-swap-ability of PS/2 devices (Was: Cursor while booting) The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-03-18 12:10 +0000
                                Re: Hot-swap-ability of PS/2 devices (Was: Cursor while booting) William Unruh <unruh@invalid.ca> - 2016-03-18 15:33 +0000
                                  Re: Hot-swap-ability of PS/2 devices (Was: Cursor while booting) "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@invalid.es> - 2016-03-18 20:21 +0100
                            Re: Hot-swap-ability of PS/2 devices (Was: Cursor while booting) William Unruh <unruh@invalid.ca> - 2016-03-17 19:14 +0000
                              Re: Hot-swap-ability of PS/2 devices (Was: Cursor while booting) Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> - 2016-03-17 13:03 -0700
                                Re: Hot-swap-ability of PS/2 devices (Was: Cursor while booting) William Unruh <unruh@invalid.ca> - 2016-03-18 01:57 +0000
                                  Re: Hot-swap-ability of PS/2 devices (Was: Cursor while booting) Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> - 2016-03-17 19:11 -0700
                            Re: Hot-swap-ability of PS/2 devices (Was: Cursor while booting) Robert Heller <heller@deepsoft.com> - 2016-03-17 14:30 -0500
                          Re: Hot-swap-ability of PS/2 devices (Was: Cursor while booting) Keith Keller <kkeller-usenet@wombat.san-francisco.ca.us> - 2016-03-17 14:59 -0700
                            Re: Hot-swap-ability of PS/2 devices (Was: Cursor while booting) Robert Heller <heller@deepsoft.com> - 2016-03-17 18:16 -0500
                              Re: Hot-swap-ability of PS/2 devices (Was: Cursor while booting) Keith Keller <kkeller-usenet@wombat.san-francisco.ca.us> - 2016-03-18 11:07 -0700
                                Re: Hot-swap-ability of PS/2 devices (Was: Cursor while booting) Robert Heller <heller@deepsoft.com> - 2016-03-18 13:49 -0500
                                  Re: Hot-swap-ability of PS/2 devices (Was: Cursor while booting) Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-03-18 22:13 +0000
                                Re: Hot-swap-ability of PS/2 devices (Was: Cursor while booting) William Unruh <unruh@invalid.ca> - 2016-03-18 19:55 +0000
                                  Re: Hot-swap-ability of PS/2 devices (Was: Cursor while booting) Robert Heller <heller@deepsoft.com> - 2016-03-18 15:13 -0500
                              Re: Hot-swap-ability of PS/2 devices Andreas Kohlbach <march.10.ankman@spamgourmet.net> - 2016-03-18 14:35 -0400
                    Re: Cursor while booting Pascal Hambourg <boite-a-spam@plouf.fr.eu.org> - 2016-03-17 13:31 +0100
                      Re: Cursor while booting William Unruh <unruh@invalid.ca> - 2016-03-17 15:04 +0000
                  Hot-swap-ability of PS/2 devices (Was: Cursor while booting) gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2016-03-17 00:33 +0000
                    Re: Hot-swap-ability of PS/2 devices (Was: Cursor while booting) William Unruh <unruh@invalid.ca> - 2016-03-17 05:09 +0000
                      Re: Hot-swap-ability of PS/2 devices (Was: Cursor while booting) Aragorn <thorongil@telenet.be.invalid> - 2016-03-17 14:15 +0100
                        Re: Hot-swap-ability of PS/2 devices (Was: Cursor while booting) Pascal Hambourg <boite-a-spam@plouf.fr.eu.org> - 2016-03-17 15:05 +0100
        Re: Cursor while booting w4hw4h.hh@gmail.com - 2016-03-15 02:49 -0700
          Re: Cursor while booting w4hw4h.hh@gmail.com - 2016-03-15 02:57 -0700
    Re: Cursor while booting Teemu Likonen <tlikonen@iki.fi> - 2016-03-13 11:36 +0200
      Re: Cursor while booting w4hw4h.hh@gmail.com - 2016-03-15 02:47 -0700
        Re: Cursor while booting William Unruh <unruh@invalid.ca> - 2016-03-15 19:45 +0000
      Re: Cursor while booting w4hw4h.hh@gmail.com - 2016-03-15 02:53 -0700
        Re: Cursor while booting The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-03-15 10:02 +0000
    Re: Cursor while booting Chick Tower <c.tower@deadspam.com> - 2016-03-15 16:52 +0000

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#17047 — Re: Hot-swap-ability of PS/2 devices (Was: Cursor while booting)

On 03/17/2016 09:42 AM, William Unruh wrote:
> On 2016-03-17, Keith Keller <kkeller-usenet@wombat.san-francisco.ca.us> wrote:
>> On 2016-03-17, Kenny McCormack <gazelle@shell.xmission.com> wrote:
>>> In article <ol5prcxops.ln2@goaway.wombat.san-francisco.ca.us>,
>>> Keith Keller  <kkeller-usenet@wombat.san-francisco.ca.us> wrote:
>>> ...
>>>> I know this is true in theory, but I have plugged/unplugged PS/2 devices
>>>> with the power on probably hundreds of times over the past 20 years, and
>>>> have had one device and one port fry in that time (in unrelated separate
>>>> incidents).  If you can power down, great.  If not, the risk is low,
>>>> just be very very sure that you can make alternate arrangements in case
>>>> you do fry something.
>>
>>> So, in conclusion, it seems pretty clear that the previous poster's advice
>>> was much more in the category of "This is what we must tell beginners" than
>>> in the "This is what is actually true" category.
>>
>> It is really true; as I said, the incidence of failures I have seen is
>> definitely nonzero, and the connectors were definitely not made to be
>> hot-plugged.
>>
>
> Well, there are two questions, one is whether plugging something in/out
> destroys something, or whether the hardware does not report anything to
> the system that something has been plugged in/out. The former is a case
> of completely incompetent engineering if it is the case. Anything that
> is plugged in could be disconnected by accident or even
> connected/disconnected repeatedly by a loose contact, and if it is not
> engineered to take that, it is incompetent engineering. I am of course
> not saying that incompetent engineering does not occur, but it is surely
> not the norm.
>
>

	In the early stages of home computing you still had to observe
a lot of rules to keep from short-circuiting your connectors.  I wiped
out my 64 kilobytes of memory on the Commodore 64 by not observing
proper protocols as to connecting cables only when cold.

	The engineers who designed and built them wrote the cautions
into the manuals and expected(foolishly) that people who valued their
hardware would read the manuals and so forth. By the time I got to
my Commodore Amigas I had learned that lesson well.  I was
happy when USB came along and it was no longer the necessity it
formerly was.

	Incompetent engineers or incompetent users is beside the
point. The engineering is improving but the users are much the
same as in the 1980s when I plugged in my C=64.  Of course with
all the net connectivity that "just happens" for the users we
don't have some problems that were "learning opportunities",

	bliss
	
	

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#17048 — Re: Hot-swap-ability of PS/2 devices (Was: Cursor while booting)

On 2016-03-17 18:02, Bobbie Sellers wrote:

>     The engineers who designed and built them wrote the cautions
> into the manuals and expected(foolishly) that people who valued their
> hardware would read the manuals and so forth. By the time I got to
> my Commodore Amigas I had learned that lesson well.  I was
> happy when USB came along and it was no longer the necessity it
> formerly was.

The RS232 serial port, which is a very old design, was prepared from the
start for "hot plug". If I recall correctly, it also accepts a range of
voltages, whereas USB doesn't.

-- 
Cheers, Carlos.

--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: news@netfront.net ---

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#17054 — Re: Hot-swap-ability of PS/2 devices (Was: Cursor while booting)

On 2016-03-17, Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@invalid.es> wrote:
> On 2016-03-17 18:02, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
>
>>     The engineers who designed and built them wrote the cautions
>> into the manuals and expected(foolishly) that people who valued their
>> hardware would read the manuals and so forth. By the time I got to
>> my Commodore Amigas I had learned that lesson well.  I was
>> happy when USB came along and it was no longer the necessity it
>> formerly was.
>
> The RS232 serial port, which is a very old design, was prepared from the
> start for "hot plug". If I recall correctly, it also accepts a range of
> voltages, whereas USB doesn't.

Well, the standard was only a certain set of voltages (5V and 0V as I
recall) but almost all serial ports after what 2000 accepted TTL as
well. 

>

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#17057 — Re: Hot-swap-ability of PS/2 devices (Was: Cursor while booting)

On 2016-03-18, William Unruh <unruh@invalid.ca> wrote:
> On 2016-03-17, Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@invalid.es> wrote:
>> On 2016-03-17 18:02, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
>>
>>>     The engineers who designed and built them wrote the cautions
>>> into the manuals and expected(foolishly) that people who valued their
>>> hardware would read the manuals and so forth. By the time I got to
>>> my Commodore Amigas I had learned that lesson well.  I was
>>> happy when USB came along and it was no longer the necessity it
>>> formerly was.
>>
>> The RS232 serial port, which is a very old design, was prepared from the
>> start for "hot plug". If I recall correctly, it also accepts a range of
>> voltages, whereas USB doesn't.
>
> Well, the standard was only a certain set of voltages (5V and 0V as I
> recall) but almost all serial ports after what 2000 accepted TTL as
> well. 

The RS-232 voltage levels are described here:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RS-232

HTH

-- 
Robert Riches
spamtrap42@jacob21819.net
(Yes, that is one of my email addresses.)

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#17058 — Re: Hot-swap-ability of PS/2 devices (Was: Cursor while booting)

On 17/03/16 19:11, Carlos E.R. wrote:
> On 2016-03-17 18:02, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
>
>>      The engineers who designed and built them wrote the cautions
>> into the manuals and expected(foolishly) that people who valued their
>> hardware would read the manuals and so forth. By the time I got to
>> my Commodore Amigas I had learned that lesson well.  I was
>> happy when USB came along and it was no longer the necessity it
>> formerly was.
>
> The RS232 serial port, which is a very old design, was prepared from the
> start for "hot plug". If I recall correctly, it also accepts a range of
> voltages, whereas USB doesn't.
>
Yet I saw an RS232 destroyed by hot plugging..

WE worked it out, finally. The laptop on which the RS232 port resided, 
had a mains filter. The connected capacitors between mains live and the 
metal frame of the laptop and between neutral and the metal frame of the 
laptop.

Unfortunately the laptop came with a two wire lead to the mains, with no 
earth, so the frame (and all the electronics inside)  sat at 110VAC via 
the capacitors.

Subsequent tests showed a small spark when the laptop was connected to 
anything earthed, and of course if any pin other than earth to earth 
made contact first, that was the pin that got the 110V.

However none of that is relevant to plugging in a passive device and 
back in the day I have hotplugged loads of keyboards at least with no 
issues, on PS2 connectors.

We used to run headless servers and that was one way if we couldn't 
reach them via the network, that we would see what was up - screen and 
keyboard.

WE didn't use mice however. strictly 80x25


-- 
“it should be clear by now to everyone that activist environmentalism 
(or environmental activism) is becoming a general ideology about humans, 
about their freedom, about the relationship between the individual and 
the state, and about the manipulation of people under the guise of a 
'noble' idea. It is not an honest pursuit of 'sustainable development,' 
a matter of elementary environmental protection, or a search for 
rational mechanisms designed to achieve a healthy environment. Yet 
things do occur that make you shake your head and remind yourself that 
you live neither in Joseph Stalin’s Communist era, nor in the Orwellian 
utopia of 1984.”

Vaclav Klaus

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#17059 — Re: Hot-swap-ability of PS/2 devices (Was: Cursor while booting)

On 2016-03-18, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> On 17/03/16 19:11, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>> On 2016-03-17 18:02, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
>>
>>>      The engineers who designed and built them wrote the cautions
>>> into the manuals and expected(foolishly) that people who valued their
>>> hardware would read the manuals and so forth. By the time I got to
>>> my Commodore Amigas I had learned that lesson well.  I was
>>> happy when USB came along and it was no longer the necessity it
>>> formerly was.
>>
>> The RS232 serial port, which is a very old design, was prepared from the
>> start for "hot plug". If I recall correctly, it also accepts a range of
>> voltages, whereas USB doesn't.
>>
> Yet I saw an RS232 destroyed by hot plugging..
>
> WE worked it out, finally. The laptop on which the RS232 port resided, 
> had a mains filter. The connected capacitors between mains live and the 
> metal frame of the laptop and between neutral and the metal frame of the 
> laptop.
>
> Unfortunately the laptop came with a two wire lead to the mains, with no 
> earth, so the frame (and all the electronics inside)  sat at 110VAC via 
> the capacitors.

Yes, it is really hard to fight against really really gross engineering
incompetence. They were lucky it was just an rs232 port that got fried,
and not the users. 

>
> Subsequent tests showed a small spark when the laptop was connected to 
> anything earthed, and of course if any pin other than earth to earth 
> made contact first, that was the pin that got the 110V.
>
> However none of that is relevant to plugging in a passive device and 
> back in the day I have hotplugged loads of keyboards at least with no 
> issues, on PS2 connectors.
>
> We used to run headless servers and that was one way if we couldn't 
> reach them via the network, that we would see what was up - screen and 
> keyboard.
>
> WE didn't use mice however. strictly 80x25
>
>

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#17063 — Re: Hot-swap-ability of PS/2 devices (Was: Cursor while booting)

On 2016-03-18 16:33, William Unruh wrote:
> On 2016-03-18, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:


>> Yet I saw an RS232 destroyed by hot plugging..
>>
>> WE worked it out, finally. The laptop on which the RS232 port resided, 
>> had a mains filter. The connected capacitors between mains live and the 
>> metal frame of the laptop and between neutral and the metal frame of the 
>> laptop.
>>
>> Unfortunately the laptop came with a two wire lead to the mains, with no 
>> earth, so the frame (and all the electronics inside)  sat at 110VAC via 
>> the capacitors.
> 
> Yes, it is really hard to fight against really really gross engineering
> incompetence. They were lucky it was just an rs232 port that got fried,
> and not the users. 

They wouldn't.

I saw the same thing happen between a computer and a printer, on the
parallel printer port. The ground connection on the mains socket was
faulty or disconnected. The case was floating at half mains voltage,
that is, 110 here.

I saw the spark, so I quickly found the problem.

Yet touching the metal on the case wouldn't kill anybody, because the
current flowing was very very small. Unless that person had wet hands,
bare feet, and the current happened to flow through the heart. Bad luck :-)

-- 
Cheers, Carlos.

--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: news@netfront.net ---

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#17049 — Re: Hot-swap-ability of PS/2 devices (Was: Cursor while booting)

On 2016-03-17, Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> wrote:
> On 03/17/2016 09:42 AM, William Unruh wrote:
>> On 2016-03-17, Keith Keller <kkeller-usenet@wombat.san-francisco.ca.us> wrote:
>>> On 2016-03-17, Kenny McCormack <gazelle@shell.xmission.com> wrote:
>>>> In article <ol5prcxops.ln2@goaway.wombat.san-francisco.ca.us>,
>>>> Keith Keller  <kkeller-usenet@wombat.san-francisco.ca.us> wrote:
>>>> ...
>>>>> I know this is true in theory, but I have plugged/unplugged PS/2 devices
>>>>> with the power on probably hundreds of times over the past 20 years, and
>>>>> have had one device and one port fry in that time (in unrelated separate
>>>>> incidents).  If you can power down, great.  If not, the risk is low,
>>>>> just be very very sure that you can make alternate arrangements in case
>>>>> you do fry something.
>>>
>>>> So, in conclusion, it seems pretty clear that the previous poster's advice
>>>> was much more in the category of "This is what we must tell beginners" than
>>>> in the "This is what is actually true" category.
>>>
>>> It is really true; as I said, the incidence of failures I have seen is
>>> definitely nonzero, and the connectors were definitely not made to be
>>> hot-plugged.
>>>
>>
>> Well, there are two questions, one is whether plugging something in/out
>> destroys something, or whether the hardware does not report anything to
>> the system that something has been plugged in/out. The former is a case
>> of completely incompetent engineering if it is the case. Anything that
>> is plugged in could be disconnected by accident or even
>> connected/disconnected repeatedly by a loose contact, and if it is not
>> engineered to take that, it is incompetent engineering. I am of course
>> not saying that incompetent engineering does not occur, but it is surely
>> not the norm.
>>
>>
>
> 	In the early stages of home computing you still had to observe
> a lot of rules to keep from short-circuiting your connectors.  I wiped
> out my 64 kilobytes of memory on the Commodore 64 by not observing
> proper protocols as to connecting cables only when cold.
>
> 	The engineers who designed and built them wrote the cautions
> into the manuals and expected(foolishly) that people who valued their
> hardware would read the manuals and so forth. By the time I got to
> my Commodore Amigas I had learned that lesson well.  I was
> happy when USB came along and it was no longer the necessity it
> formerly was.
>
> 	Incompetent engineers or incompetent users is beside the
> point. The engineering is improving but the users are much the
> same as in the 1980s when I plugged in my C=64.  Of course with
> all the net connectivity that "just happens" for the users we
> don't have some problems that were "learning opportunities",

Users are always incompetent. They have not been trained, have not spent
4 years at university studying how to use their equipment. Engineers
have, and should have been trained as to how to design equipment
properly. It is like saying that when a doctor botches up and operation,
one should expect it, because the use ( the person under the knife)
could be incompetent at operations as well. 

Imagine if cars were that way. The manual says that if you happen to
press on the accelerator and the brake at the same time even briefly,
the3 engine explodes sending shrapnel all around. Do you thing that
manual mention would be considered sufficient to absolve the engineer of
fault and blame? And yet we accept behaviour like that from computer
people. The whole absolution of blame in the computer area-- harware of
software-- is astonishing. They make lots of money so they should not be
blamed for anything. 

>
> 	bliss
> 	
> 	

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#17051 — Re: Hot-swap-ability of PS/2 devices (Was: Cursor while booting)

On 03/17/2016 12:14 PM, William Unruh wrote:
> On 2016-03-17, Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> wrote:
>> On 03/17/2016 09:42 AM, William Unruh wrote:
>>> On 2016-03-17, Keith Keller <kkeller-usenet@wombat.san-francisco.ca.us> wrote:
>>>> On 2016-03-17, Kenny McCormack <gazelle@shell.xmission.com> wrote:
>>>>> In article <ol5prcxops.ln2@goaway.wombat.san-francisco.ca.us>,
>>>>> Keith Keller  <kkeller-usenet@wombat.san-francisco.ca.us> wrote:
>>>>> ...
>>>>>> I know this is true in theory, but I have plugged/unplugged PS/2 devices
>>>>>> with the power on probably hundreds of times over the past 20 years, and
>>>>>> have had one device and one port fry in that time (in unrelated separate
>>>>>> incidents).  If you can power down, great.  If not, the risk is low,
>>>>>> just be very very sure that you can make alternate arrangements in case
>>>>>> you do fry something.
>>>>
>>>>> So, in conclusion, it seems pretty clear that the previous poster's advice
>>>>> was much more in the category of "This is what we must tell beginners" than
>>>>> in the "This is what is actually true" category.
>>>>
>>>> It is really true; as I said, the incidence of failures I have seen is
>>>> definitely nonzero, and the connectors were definitely not made to be
>>>> hot-plugged.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Well, there are two questions, one is whether plugging something in/out
>>> destroys something, or whether the hardware does not report anything to
>>> the system that something has been plugged in/out. The former is a case
>>> of completely incompetent engineering if it is the case. Anything that
>>> is plugged in could be disconnected by accident or even
>>> connected/disconnected repeatedly by a loose contact, and if it is not
>>> engineered to take that, it is incompetent engineering. I am of course
>>> not saying that incompetent engineering does not occur, but it is surely
>>> not the norm.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> 	In the early stages of home computing you still had to observe
>> a lot of rules to keep from short-circuiting your connectors.  I wiped
>> out my 64 kilobytes of memory on the Commodore 64 by not observing
>> proper protocols as to connecting cables only when cold.
>>
>> 	The engineers who designed and built them wrote the cautions
>> into the manuals and expected(foolishly) that people who valued their
>> hardware would read the manuals and so forth. By the time I got to
>> my Commodore Amigas I had learned that lesson well.  I was
>> happy when USB came along and it was no longer the necessity it
>> formerly was.
>>
>> 	Incompetent engineers or incompetent users is beside the
>> point. The engineering is improving but the users are much the
>> same as in the 1980s when I plugged in my C=64.  Of course with
>> all the net connectivity that "just happens" for the users we
>> don't have some problems that were "learning opportunities",
>
> Users are always incompetent. They have not been trained, have not spent
> 4 years at university studying how to use their equipment. Engineers
> have, and should have been trained as to how to design equipment
> properly. It is like saying that when a doctor botches up and operation,
> one should expect it, because the use ( the person under the knife)
> could be incompetent at operations as well.
>
> Imagine if cars were that way. The manual says that if you happen to
> press on the accelerator and the brake at the same time even briefly,
> the3 engine explodes sending shrapnel all around. Do you thing that
> manual mention would be considered sufficient to absolve the engineer of
> fault and blame? And yet we accept behaviour like that from computer
> people. The whole absolution of blame in the computer area-- harware of
> software-- is astonishing. They make lots of money so they should not be
> blamed for anything.
>
>>
>> 	bliss
>> 	
>> 	

	Well they build the toys we are foolish enough to buy
so it is not money but creativity that buys them a pass.
	Users may be incompetent but they can learn. Engineers
have to produce what the company thinks will sell.

	bliss

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#17055 — Re: Hot-swap-ability of PS/2 devices (Was: Cursor while booting)

On 2016-03-17, Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> wrote:
> On 03/17/2016 12:14 PM, William Unruh wrote:
>> On 2016-03-17, Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> wrote:
>>> On 03/17/2016 09:42 AM, William Unruh wrote:
>>>> On 2016-03-17, Keith Keller <kkeller-usenet@wombat.san-francisco.ca.us> wrote:
>>>>> On 2016-03-17, Kenny McCormack <gazelle@shell.xmission.com> wrote:
>>>>>> In article <ol5prcxops.ln2@goaway.wombat.san-francisco.ca.us>,
>>>>>> Keith Keller  <kkeller-usenet@wombat.san-francisco.ca.us> wrote:
>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>> I know this is true in theory, but I have plugged/unplugged PS/2 devices
>>>>>>> with the power on probably hundreds of times over the past 20 years, and
>>>>>>> have had one device and one port fry in that time (in unrelated separate
>>>>>>> incidents).  If you can power down, great.  If not, the risk is low,
>>>>>>> just be very very sure that you can make alternate arrangements in case
>>>>>>> you do fry something.
>>>>>
>>>>>> So, in conclusion, it seems pretty clear that the previous poster's advice
>>>>>> was much more in the category of "This is what we must tell beginners" than
>>>>>> in the "This is what is actually true" category.
>>>>>
>>>>> It is really true; as I said, the incidence of failures I have seen is
>>>>> definitely nonzero, and the connectors were definitely not made to be
>>>>> hot-plugged.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Well, there are two questions, one is whether plugging something in/out
>>>> destroys something, or whether the hardware does not report anything to
>>>> the system that something has been plugged in/out. The former is a case
>>>> of completely incompetent engineering if it is the case. Anything that
>>>> is plugged in could be disconnected by accident or even
>>>> connected/disconnected repeatedly by a loose contact, and if it is not
>>>> engineered to take that, it is incompetent engineering. I am of course
>>>> not saying that incompetent engineering does not occur, but it is surely
>>>> not the norm.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> 	In the early stages of home computing you still had to observe
>>> a lot of rules to keep from short-circuiting your connectors.  I wiped
>>> out my 64 kilobytes of memory on the Commodore 64 by not observing
>>> proper protocols as to connecting cables only when cold.
>>>
>>> 	The engineers who designed and built them wrote the cautions
>>> into the manuals and expected(foolishly) that people who valued their
>>> hardware would read the manuals and so forth. By the time I got to
>>> my Commodore Amigas I had learned that lesson well.  I was
>>> happy when USB came along and it was no longer the necessity it
>>> formerly was.
>>>
>>> 	Incompetent engineers or incompetent users is beside the
>>> point. The engineering is improving but the users are much the
>>> same as in the 1980s when I plugged in my C=64.  Of course with
>>> all the net connectivity that "just happens" for the users we
>>> don't have some problems that were "learning opportunities",
>>
>> Users are always incompetent. They have not been trained, have not spent
>> 4 years at university studying how to use their equipment. Engineers
>> have, and should have been trained as to how to design equipment
>> properly. It is like saying that when a doctor botches up and operation,
>> one should expect it, because the use ( the person under the knife)
>> could be incompetent at operations as well.
>>
>> Imagine if cars were that way. The manual says that if you happen to
>> press on the accelerator and the brake at the same time even briefly,
>> the3 engine explodes sending shrapnel all around. Do you thing that
>> manual mention would be considered sufficient to absolve the engineer of
>> fault and blame? And yet we accept behaviour like that from computer
>> people. The whole absolution of blame in the computer area-- harware of
>> software-- is astonishing. They make lots of money so they should not be
>> blamed for anything.
>>
>>>
>>> 	bliss
>>> 	
>>> 	
>
> 	Well they build the toys we are foolish enough to buy
> so it is not money but creativity that buys them a pass.
> 	Users may be incompetent but they can learn. Engineers
> have to produce what the company thinks will sell.

And you think that the customers would reject PS2 ports which would not
burn out if they were hot swapped? Engineers have the ability to design
competently and to enforce that on the company. 

>
> 	bliss

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#17056 — Re: Hot-swap-ability of PS/2 devices (Was: Cursor while booting)

On 03/17/2016 06:57 PM, William Unruh wrote:
> On 2016-03-17, Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> wrote:
>> On 03/17/2016 12:14 PM, William Unruh wrote:
>>> On 2016-03-17, Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> wrote:
>>>> On 03/17/2016 09:42 AM, William Unruh wrote:
>>>>> On 2016-03-17, Keith Keller <kkeller-usenet@wombat.san-francisco.ca.us> wrote:
>>>>>> On 2016-03-17, Kenny McCormack <gazelle@shell.xmission.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> In article <ol5prcxops.ln2@goaway.wombat.san-francisco.ca.us>,
>>>>>>> Keith Keller  <kkeller-usenet@wombat.san-francisco.ca.us> wrote:
>>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>>> I know this is true in theory, but I have plugged/unplugged PS/2 devices
>>>>>>>> with the power on probably hundreds of times over the past 20 years, and
>>>>>>>> have had one device and one port fry in that time (in unrelated separate
>>>>>>>> incidents).  If you can power down, great.  If not, the risk is low,
>>>>>>>> just be very very sure that you can make alternate arrangements in case
>>>>>>>> you do fry something.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So, in conclusion, it seems pretty clear that the previous poster's advice
>>>>>>> was much more in the category of "This is what we must tell beginners" than
>>>>>>> in the "This is what is actually true" category.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It is really true; as I said, the incidence of failures I have seen is
>>>>>> definitely nonzero, and the connectors were definitely not made to be
>>>>>> hot-plugged.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Well, there are two questions, one is whether plugging something in/out
>>>>> destroys something, or whether the hardware does not report anything to
>>>>> the system that something has been plugged in/out. The former is a case
>>>>> of completely incompetent engineering if it is the case. Anything that
>>>>> is plugged in could be disconnected by accident or even
>>>>> connected/disconnected repeatedly by a loose contact, and if it is not
>>>>> engineered to take that, it is incompetent engineering. I am of course
>>>>> not saying that incompetent engineering does not occur, but it is surely
>>>>> not the norm.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 	In the early stages of home computing you still had to observe
>>>> a lot of rules to keep from short-circuiting your connectors.  I wiped
>>>> out my 64 kilobytes of memory on the Commodore 64 by not observing
>>>> proper protocols as to connecting cables only when cold.
>>>>
>>>> 	The engineers who designed and built them wrote the cautions
>>>> into the manuals and expected(foolishly) that people who valued their
>>>> hardware would read the manuals and so forth. By the time I got to
>>>> my Commodore Amigas I had learned that lesson well.  I was
>>>> happy when USB came along and it was no longer the necessity it
>>>> formerly was.
>>>>
>>>> 	Incompetent engineers or incompetent users is beside the
>>>> point. The engineering is improving but the users are much the
>>>> same as in the 1980s when I plugged in my C=64.  Of course with
>>>> all the net connectivity that "just happens" for the users we
>>>> don't have some problems that were "learning opportunities",
>>>
>>> Users are always incompetent. They have not been trained, have not spent
>>> 4 years at university studying how to use their equipment. Engineers
>>> have, and should have been trained as to how to design equipment
>>> properly. It is like saying that when a doctor botches up and operation,
>>> one should expect it, because the use ( the person under the knife)
>>> could be incompetent at operations as well.
>>>
>>> Imagine if cars were that way. The manual says that if you happen to
>>> press on the accelerator and the brake at the same time even briefly,
>>> the3 engine explodes sending shrapnel all around. Do you thing that
>>> manual mention would be considered sufficient to absolve the engineer of
>>> fault and blame? And yet we accept behaviour like that from computer
>>> people. The whole absolution of blame in the computer area-- harware of
>>> software-- is astonishing. They make lots of money so they should not be
>>> blamed for anything.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> 	bliss
>>>> 	
>>>> 	
>>
>> 	Well they build the toys we are foolish enough to buy
>> so it is not money but creativity that buys them a pass.
>> 	Users may be incompetent but they can learn. Engineers
>> have to produce what the company thinks will sell.
>
> And you think that the customers would reject PS2 ports which would not
> burn out if they were hot swapped? Engineers have the ability to design
> competently and to enforce that on the company.
>
>>
>> 	bliss

	Management decides what you will be allowed to buy and how much
you will pay for it at least for early adopters.  If the users wanted
stuff that would work properly Microsoft would be giving away Linux
and Windows would have disappeared from the scene.

	Now in the earlier days engineers had a bit more power but
still they had to make stuff that would sell and be a bit durable
if you followed the directions.  Jay Miner may have been one of
the few who thought about what the users might want in a computer,
That was floppy days.

	bliss

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#17050 — Re: Hot-swap-ability of PS/2 devices (Was: Cursor while booting)

At Thu, 17 Mar 2016 10:02:13 -0700 Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> wrote:

> 
> On 03/17/2016 09:42 AM, William Unruh wrote:
> > On 2016-03-17, Keith Keller <kkeller-usenet@wombat.san-francisco.ca.us> wrote:
> >> On 2016-03-17, Kenny McCormack <gazelle@shell.xmission.com> wrote:
> >>> In article <ol5prcxops.ln2@goaway.wombat.san-francisco.ca.us>,
> >>> Keith Keller  <kkeller-usenet@wombat.san-francisco.ca.us> wrote:
> >>> ...
> >>>> I know this is true in theory, but I have plugged/unplugged PS/2 devices
> >>>> with the power on probably hundreds of times over the past 20 years, and
> >>>> have had one device and one port fry in that time (in unrelated separate
> >>>> incidents).  If you can power down, great.  If not, the risk is low,
> >>>> just be very very sure that you can make alternate arrangements in case
> >>>> you do fry something.
> >>
> >>> So, in conclusion, it seems pretty clear that the previous poster's advice
> >>> was much more in the category of "This is what we must tell beginners" than
> >>> in the "This is what is actually true" category.
> >>
> >> It is really true; as I said, the incidence of failures I have seen is
> >> definitely nonzero, and the connectors were definitely not made to be
> >> hot-plugged.
> >>
> >
> > Well, there are two questions, one is whether plugging something in/out
> > destroys something, or whether the hardware does not report anything to
> > the system that something has been plugged in/out. The former is a case
> > of completely incompetent engineering if it is the case. Anything that
> > is plugged in could be disconnected by accident or even
> > connected/disconnected repeatedly by a loose contact, and if it is not
> > engineered to take that, it is incompetent engineering. I am of course
> > not saying that incompetent engineering does not occur, but it is surely
> > not the norm.
> >
> >
> 
> 	In the early stages of home computing you still had to observe
> a lot of rules to keep from short-circuiting your connectors.  I wiped
> out my 64 kilobytes of memory on the Commodore 64 by not observing
> proper protocols as to connecting cables only when cold.
> 
> 	The engineers who designed and built them wrote the cautions
> into the manuals and expected(foolishly) that people who valued their
> hardware would read the manuals and so forth. By the time I got to
> my Commodore Amigas I had learned that lesson well.  I was
> happy when USB came along and it was no longer the necessity it
> formerly was.
> 
> 	Incompetent engineers or incompetent users is beside the
> point. The engineering is improving but the users are much the
> same as in the 1980s when I plugged in my C=64.  Of course with
> all the net connectivity that "just happens" for the users we
> don't have some problems that were "learning opportunities",
> 
> 	bliss

Basically, the short answer is: the design of the PS/2 interface was not
really very 'idiot proof' -- IBM's early days of PC hardware design was not
really good -- IBM engineers were way to used to dealing with 'real' engineers
using their computers, not [clueless] 'pointy haired bosses'. Actually
breaking things was really rare (but did occur sometimes), but it was allways
certain that you really needed to reboot the machine when you replaced your
PS/2 keyboard or mouse. PS/2 KVMs managed to get around that somehow, probably
with 'clever' innards.

> 	
> 	
>                                                                                                                         
> 

-- 
Robert Heller             -- 978-544-6933
Deepwoods Software        -- Custom Software Services
http://www.deepsoft.com/  -- Linux Administration Services
heller@deepsoft.com       -- Webhosting Services
                                                                                                           

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#17052 — Re: Hot-swap-ability of PS/2 devices (Was: Cursor while booting)

On 2016-03-17, William Unruh <unruh@invalid.ca> wrote:
>
> Well, there are two questions, one is whether plugging something in/out
> destroys something, or whether the hardware does not report anything to
> the system that something has been plugged in/out.

I don't think I've ever seen a message on the console when unplugging or
plugging in a PS/2 device.

> The former is a case
> of completely incompetent engineering if it is the case. Anything that
> is plugged in could be disconnected by accident or even
> connected/disconnected repeatedly by a loose contact, and if it is not
> engineered to take that, it is incompetent engineering. I am of course
> not saying that incompetent engineering does not occur, but it is surely
> not the norm. 

I have no idea how the PS/2 port was designed, but it was during the
1980s, a time where hotplugging would not have been expected, and the
odds of a cable or connector coming loose were low.  It might not have
been the best idea to not make the port hot-swappable but it's hard to
blame the engineers for doing so.

Funny enough, the Wikipedia page for the port has a section on hot
swapping.  :)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PS/2_port#Hotplugging

I've seldom swapped mice, especially in recent years; I've mainly
plugged or unplugged keyboards, which are fairly similar.  I have not
had to reboot a system where I've swapped keyboards in recent memory (an
issue another poster mentioned).

--keith

-- 
kkeller-usenet@wombat.san-francisco.ca.us
(try just my userid to email me)
AOLSFAQ=http://www.therockgarden.ca/aolsfaq.txt
see X- headers for PGP signature information

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#17053 — Re: Hot-swap-ability of PS/2 devices (Was: Cursor while booting)

At Thu, 17 Mar 2016 14:59:37 -0700 Keith Keller <kkeller-usenet@wombat.san-francisco.ca.us> wrote:

> 
> On 2016-03-17, William Unruh <unruh@invalid.ca> wrote:
> >
> > Well, there are two questions, one is whether plugging something in/out
> > destroys something, or whether the hardware does not report anything to
> > the system that something has been plugged in/out.
> 
> I don't think I've ever seen a message on the console when unplugging or
> plugging in a PS/2 device.

You wouldn't.  The O/S just asks the BIOS at start up: "What's in the PS/2 
ports?" and never asks again.

> 
> > The former is a case
> > of completely incompetent engineering if it is the case. Anything that
> > is plugged in could be disconnected by accident or even
> > connected/disconnected repeatedly by a loose contact, and if it is not
> > engineered to take that, it is incompetent engineering. I am of course
> > not saying that incompetent engineering does not occur, but it is surely
> > not the norm. 
> 
> I have no idea how the PS/2 port was designed, but it was during the
> 1980s, a time where hotplugging would not have been expected, and the
> odds of a cable or connector coming loose were low.  It might not have
> been the best idea to not make the port hot-swappable but it's hard to
> blame the engineers for doing so.
> 
> Funny enough, the Wikipedia page for the port has a section on hot
> swapping.  :)
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PS/2_port#Hotplugging
> 
> I've seldom swapped mice, especially in recent years; I've mainly
> plugged or unplugged keyboards, which are fairly similar.  I have not
> had to reboot a system where I've swapped keyboards in recent memory (an
> issue another poster mentioned).

Mice in the '1980s' tending to die quite readily -- in those days they were
almost all mechanical ball mice, and sooner or later they tended to stop
working. Keyboards in those days were much more rugged (than now), and tended
to 'last forever'. So a mouse would die and swapping in a new mouse mostly
needed a reboot... I'm thinking that keyboards, esp. PS/2 vintage keyboards
were dead interchangable -- same keys, same layout, same keycodes, etc. *Mice*
on the other hand tended to be more variable: one button, 2 buttons, 3
buttons, 5 buttons, and there might have been 2-3 xy protocols, so it is
possible that when you swapped mice the BIOS/OS's idea of what was plugged
might differ from what was actually plugged in. Or something stupid like that.
There might also be protocol sync up issues -- if the protocol was out of sync
things might appear like bit garbage and one side or the other would just give
up and need a 'driver' reset. Since the PS/2 driver was *always* compiled in
(probably still is), the only way to reset the PS/2 driver was to restart the
kernel (eg a reboot). (This is also true for the traditional IDE driver, but
that is neither here nor there.) 

The PS/2 connectors almost never 'came loose' -- they were 'tight fitting' and 
I believe had some simple 'lock' to hold them in.  USB plugs are very much 
'looser' and are very easy to unplug (probably designed that way).

> 
> --keith
> 

-- 
Robert Heller             -- 978-544-6933
Deepwoods Software        -- Custom Software Services
http://www.deepsoft.com/  -- Linux Administration Services
heller@deepsoft.com       -- Webhosting Services
                                                                   

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#17060 — Re: Hot-swap-ability of PS/2 devices (Was: Cursor while booting)

On 2016-03-17, Robert Heller <heller@deepsoft.com> wrote:
>
> The PS/2 connectors almost never 'came loose' -- they were 'tight fitting' and 
> I believe had some simple 'lock' to hold them in.  USB plugs are very much 
> 'looser' and are very easy to unplug (probably designed that way).

There's no locking mechanism, but they are a much snugger fit than USB.

--keith

-- 
kkeller-usenet@wombat.san-francisco.ca.us
(try just my userid to email me)
AOLSFAQ=http://www.therockgarden.ca/aolsfaq.txt
see X- headers for PGP signature information

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#17062 — Re: Hot-swap-ability of PS/2 devices (Was: Cursor while booting)

At Fri, 18 Mar 2016 11:07:24 -0700 Keith Keller <kkeller-usenet@wombat.san-francisco.ca.us> wrote:

> 
> On 2016-03-17, Robert Heller <heller@deepsoft.com> wrote:
> >
> > The PS/2 connectors almost never 'came loose' -- they were 'tight fitting' and 
> > I believe had some simple 'lock' to hold them in.  USB plugs are very much 
> > 'looser' and are very easy to unplug (probably designed that way).
> 
> There's no locking mechanism, but they are a much snugger fit than USB.

I think there might be a 'bump' on the shell.  Yes, there is no 'locking 
mechanism' (eg like for Ethernet cables), just a snugger fit and maybe a 
'bump' that helps hold the connector in.

> 
> --keith
> 

-- 
Robert Heller             -- 978-544-6933
Deepwoods Software        -- Custom Software Services
http://www.deepsoft.com/  -- Linux Administration Services
heller@deepsoft.com       -- Webhosting Services
                                                                                                                

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#17066 — Re: Hot-swap-ability of PS/2 devices (Was: Cursor while booting)

On 2016-03-18, Robert Heller <heller@deepsoft.com> wrote:

> At Fri, 18 Mar 2016 11:07:24 -0700 Keith Keller
> <kkeller-usenet@wombat.san-francisco.ca.us> wrote:
>
>> On 2016-03-17, Robert Heller <heller@deepsoft.com> wrote:
>>
>>> The PS/2 connectors almost never 'came loose' -- they were 'tight fitting'
>>> and I believe had some simple 'lock' to hold them in.  USB plugs are very
>>> much 'looser' and are very easy to unplug (probably designed that way).
>> 
>> There's no locking mechanism, but they are a much snugger fit than USB.
>
> I think there might be a 'bump' on the shell.  Yes, there is no 'locking 
> mechanism' (eg like for Ethernet cables), just a snugger fit and maybe a 
> 'bump' that helps hold the connector in.

I suspect that "bump" is just a key to ensure proper orientation.

-- 
/~\  cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
\ /  I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way.
 X   Top-posted messages will probably be ignored.  See RFC1855.
/ \  HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored.  Join the ASCII ribbon campaign!

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#17064 — Re: Hot-swap-ability of PS/2 devices (Was: Cursor while booting)

On 2016-03-18, Keith Keller <kkeller-usenet@wombat.san-francisco.ca.us> wrote:
> On 2016-03-17, Robert Heller <heller@deepsoft.com> wrote:
>>
>> The PS/2 connectors almost never 'came loose' -- they were 'tight fitting' and 
>> I believe had some simple 'lock' to hold them in.  USB plugs are very much 
>> 'looser' and are very easy to unplug (probably designed that way).
>
> There's no locking mechanism, but they are a much snugger fit than USB.

It depends. Some of my usb devices are a really really snug fit, and
some of my ps2 are pretty loose. 
>

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#17065 — Re: Hot-swap-ability of PS/2 devices (Was: Cursor while booting)

At Fri, 18 Mar 2016 19:55:38 -0000 (UTC) William Unruh <unruh@invalid.ca> wrote:

> 
> On 2016-03-18, Keith Keller <kkeller-usenet@wombat.san-francisco.ca.us> wrote:
> > On 2016-03-17, Robert Heller <heller@deepsoft.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> The PS/2 connectors almost never 'came loose' -- they were 'tight fitting' and 
> >> I believe had some simple 'lock' to hold them in.  USB plugs are very much 
> >> 'looser' and are very easy to unplug (probably designed that way).
> >
> > There's no locking mechanism, but they are a much snugger fit than USB.
> 
> It depends. Some of my usb devices are a really really snug fit, and
> some of my ps2 are pretty loose. 

'Standard' A-type plugs should be pretty easy to insert and remove (but not
really loose enough to just fall out). Some of the mini and micro connectors
can be tighter. The Standard B-types are a little tighter than the A-types. If
the A-types are partitularly 'tight', something is probably bent or something.
A loose PS/2 is probably badly 'worn'.

> >
>                                                                               

-- 
Robert Heller             -- 978-544-6933
Deepwoods Software        -- Custom Software Services
http://www.deepsoft.com/  -- Linux Administration Services
heller@deepsoft.com       -- Webhosting Services
                                                                       

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#17061 — Re: Hot-swap-ability of PS/2 devices

Robert Heller wrote on 17. March 2016:
>
> Mice in the '1980s' tending to die quite readily -- in those days they were
> almost all mechanical ball mice, and sooner or later they tended to stop
> working.

That was the case until well into the 90s. The low budget PC PC I bought
late 1996 still had a mouse with a ball. Although you might have been
able to buy mice without ball already at that time it wasn't already standard.
-- 
Andreas

I use a Unix based operating system, which means I get laid almost as often
as I have to reboot my computer.

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